Why did Dan Mullen work for State but not Joe Moorhead?

[Coach34]

Both grew up in the North
Both considered to be top notch offensive guys when hired.
Both Spread offense guys- altho some differences
Both considered to be very smart men

To me the difference is SEC experience. Mullen was an SEC guy when he took the job. Moorhead has looked like a guy that was the HC at Bayou Academy that suddenly became the HC at Tupelo HS. The SEC is a different place and every team has athletes that get after you. As I've pointed out time and again- QB's have less time to make reads against SEC defenses. SEC defenses are built on speed and physicality. WE have DE's in the SEC that can make mistakes and still run you down. Other conferences don't have that top to bottom in their conferences. Mullen was ready for that- Moorhead was not.

Secondly- people like Moorhead. You always hear about what a great guy Joe is. Nobody ever says that about Mullen. or Saban. Or Harbaugh. What do people say about Mullen? "He's an asshole but he is a good football coach". What other coach in the SEC is said to be so well-liked? Not Saban, not Gus, not Jimbo, not Kirby, not Boom, etc.

Whomever our new coach is next week- hopefully has some SEC ties

[Commercecomet24]

Well said.

[KOdawg1]

Whomever our new coach is next week- hopefully has some SEC ties

And is a mean SOB

[bulldog20]

And is a mean SOB

John Hevesy it is then. He's coming home

[dawgday166]

Joe doesn't come close to understanding the level of toughness necessary in SEC. And even tho he may be starting to grasp it, I'm not sure he knows or understands how to coach it. Not sure he ever will. There's a reason he's an English professor.

[KOdawg1]

John Hevesy it is then. He's coming home
Haha our recruiting ranking would be in the 70s but our players would learn an expanded vocabulary

[TrapGame]

Both grew up in the North
Both considered to be top notch offensive guys when hired.
Both Spread offense guys- altho some differences
Both considered to be very smart men

To me the difference is SEC experience. Mullen was an SEC guy when he took the job. Moorhead has looked like a guy that was the HC at Bayou Academy that suddenly became the HC at Tupelo HS. The SEC is a different place and every team has athletes that get after you. As I've pointed out time and again- QB's have less time to make reads against SEC defenses. SEC defenses are built on speed and physicality. WE have DE's in the SEC that can make mistakes and still run you down. Other conferences don't have that top to bottom in their conferences. Mullen was ready for that- Moorhead was not.

Secondly- people like Moorhead. You always hear about what a great guy Joe is. Nobody ever says that about Mullen. or Saban. Or Harbaugh. What do people say about Mullen? "He's an asshole but he is a good football coach". What other coach in the SEC is said to be so well-liked? Not Saban, not Gus, not Jimbo, not Kirby, not Boom, etc.

Whomever our new coach is next week- hopefully has some SEC ties


You don't already know? You're slipping.***

[Todd4State]

Joe doesn't come close to understanding the level of toughness necessary in SEC. And even tho he may be starting to grasp it, I'm not sure he knows or understands how to coach it. Not sure he ever will. There's a reason he's an English professor.

This is it. He doesn’t demand toughness or at the very least understand the level of toughness needed in the SEC. Or the level of S&C needed. You can’t half ass that hire.

[trojandawg]

that is always a warning label to me in SEC at the head coach level. you have to be tough and almost a perfectionist to be successful. something i've caught on from the documentaries on successful coaches. all had an unbelieavable work either of putting hours upon hours in on the job game planning, prepping, pushing for effort. Jo doesn't do any of that to that level. He treats it too much like peewee.

[bulldog20]

Let's just hire Jason Brown that used to coach Independence. The team would be united in their hate for him & would become meaner**

[parabrave]

Mullen had coached on a national championship program under a great coach and knew what it takes to build a program in the SEC.

[TrapGame]

This is it. He doesn’t demand toughness or at the very least understand the level of toughness needed in the SEC. Or the level of S&C needed. You can’t half ass that hire.

Which makes you wonder what kind of S&C program Penn State is running. Where did Joe get the notion to go lax on toughness?. I still think Franklin was happy to get rid of him.

[bulldog20]

Franklin I think gets a little too much credit. He was on the hot seat before Joe got there and helped turn things around offensively. Yes I know, he had Saquon and all that, but still. His offense now is still very similar to what Moorhead runs and Franklin has been Mullen like in big games at Penn State.

Not advocating for Joe at all, but people are so up in arms about him tend to forgot those things. Joe is not the answer for MSU at all btw.

[Todd4State]

Which makes you wonder what kind of S&C program Penn State is running. Where did Joe get the notion to go lax on toughness?. I still think Franklin was happy to get rid of him.

He probably just didn’t know enough of the right people in the S&C industry honestly.

[Homedawg]

I see this thread is finally addressing the fact that JOE is the reason our s/c sucks. It's called do what the boss wants. And he, jomo is why we are soft. Period.

[ShotgunDawg]

I think the first 100 days of a new head coach's tenure is the most important 100 days of his tenure & I think Joe monumentally screwed up his first 100 days.

As C34 stated, having SEC experience is very important because it allows you to get those first 100 days right. In the first 100 days, the culture is set, players size you up, discipline is administered, & expectations are set.

I'm sure there are numerous things that Joe wishes he could go back in change in those first 100 days, but once they are over, you can't change them. You can change them in your next job, but not in that.

In Mullen's first 100 days, all we heard was how big of an ass hole he was & retained employees hated working for him. That got people in line & they new that it was his way or the highway.

All that said, I still don't think Joe has the personality for the SEC. Doesn't have that edge it takes

[Commercecomet24]

I see this thread is finally addressing the fact that JOE is the reason our s/c sucks. It's called do what the boss wants. And he, jomo is why we are soft. Period.

Exactly. The S&C problems are on joe. The S&C coach follows the program given to him by the HC. This is on joe.

[KOdawg1]

All that said, I still don't think Joe has the personality for the SEC. Doesn't have that edge it takes

And he knows it, which is why he wants out as well.

[OLJWales]

Mullen: " the first thing I did when hired was go out and get the best strength and conditioning coach I could find. Was the most important thing I did."

[sandjunky]

I see this thread is finally addressing the fact that JOE is the reason our s/c sucks. It's called do what the boss wants. And he, jomo is why we are soft. Period.

We needed Balis and got Tony Horton P90x but on a Popeyes diet

[ShotgunDawg]

Mullen: " the first thing I did when hired was go out and get the best strength and conditioning coach I could find. Was the most important thing I did."

Yup & Balis set the culture.

Thing is, once the culture & expectations are set, it's not terribly difficult to maintain it. That's why after Balis left, we were still able to keep on keeping on

[dawgday166]

Not saying Balis isn't good but Piroli is really good. We were in shape last year, just not coached well on offense. Defense showed it tho. Piroli was S&C in 2014 too.

[DogsofAnarchy]

Both grew up in the North
Both considered to be top notch offensive guys when hired.
Both Spread offense guys- altho some differences
Both considered to be very smart men

To me the difference is SEC experience. Mullen was an SEC guy when he took the job. Moorhead has looked like a guy that was the HC at Bayou Academy that suddenly became the HC at Tupelo HS. The SEC is a different place and every team has athletes that get after you. As I've pointed out time and again- QB's have less time to make reads against SEC defenses. SEC defenses are built on speed and physicality. WE have DE's in the SEC that can make mistakes and still run you down. Other conferences don't have that top to bottom in their conferences. Mullen was ready for that- Moorhead was not.

Secondly- people like Moorhead. You always hear about what a great guy Joe is. Nobody ever says that about Mullen. or Saban. Or Harbaugh. What do people say about Mullen? "He's an asshole but he is a good football coach". What other coach in the SEC is said to be so well-liked? Not Saban, not Gus, not Jimbo, not Kirby, not Boom, etc.

Whomever our new coach is next week- hopefully has some SEC ties

I quote Craig Randle, “Get off your ass or I will KILL you in your sleep...” Great damn Coach!!

[Irondawg]

I think Joe hasn't worked out for several reasons:

1) And this doesn't get mentioned enough to me - his offense simply isn't that good anymore against talented defenses. Even at Penn State they weren't running all over top end defenses. Everyone points to the big OSU game, but special teams were huge in that one and then most of the scoring was Barkley simply breaking one and two TD throws into tight coverage where the WR made great plays. Simply put I don't think he's really out-scheming anyone.

2) So if you're not going to out-smart teams with formations, etc. you better have great execution. We've seen that be a constant problem. Mullen was known for throwing out anything the team didn't run well the majority of the time and I think it's why he seemed less creative than in the early years. Once the talent base got up he took less chances and ran what he knew they could execute. Joe seems less willing to do that and we've paid a price for that.

3) No 1 and 2 get compounded when it's clear he just wasn't ready for the speed of SEC defenses. Even though he got to see one of the best ever in practice each week his first year he couldn't adjust his gameplan to counter it.

4) His offensive staff. Looked great on paper but not enough SEC experience there and it just never seemed to gel. He should have kept the kid that called our bowl game as a holdover instead of Breiner maybe. Not sure it would have helped or not.

5) Joe's personality. I still like him and guys with his personality have found a way to make it work at big programs before, but he's simply not mean enough when he had to be and he didn't hire enough bad cop coaches to compensate.

6) A little bit of bad luck. If the weather is better in KY last year and if Osirius and Guidry catch a few balls maybe it's the worst looking 10 win team in history but we get there. This year tutorgate I'm sure caused issues, he took a chance on splitting the locker room with Stevens only to see him go down week 2 and create uncertainty as the QB position the rest of the year.

7) Lack of explosive personnel and playing favorites. We don't have a lot of potential game breakers and unfortunately our best two (Hill and Guidry) are our most inconsistent in effort at times and seem to be our most difficult personalities. I think Joe tried to use positive reinforcement too much and instead should have made examples out of them at times even if it risked them quitting at some point.

8) Little bit of stubborness, which can be a good trait in a HC at times, but he needed help understanding how the SEC works and lots of rumors that he wasn't exactly always open to help.

Joe has failed to this point, but he's not an idiot. I get the feeling he's extremely annoyed at everything that has happened, but he's most annoyed at himself because he knows he didn't get it done and made some bad decisions along the way. I do really hope he can find a landing place and hopefully use what he's learned here and be successful at his next gig

[StateDawg44]

I see this thread is finally addressing the fact that JOE is the reason our s/c sucks. It's called do what the boss wants. And he, jomo is why we are soft. Period.

Yeah.... haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else on this board up until now.

[confucius say]

Sec exierience may help but it is not required. Saban, Meyer, Franklin

[Fader21]

One thing about Joe's offense is that is great in spurts. Sometimes you have to call a play and let your offensive line nut up and play instead of waiting to see what the defense is going to do and change the play.

[MetEdDawg]

Not saying Balis isn't good but Piroli is really good. We were in shape last year, just not coached well on offense. Defense showed it tho. Piroli was S&C in 2014 too.

Biggest loss on the entire staff and not talked about enough. There's a reason he's in the NFL.

[Dawgtini]

I think Joe hasn't worked out for several reasons:

1) And this doesn't get mentioned enough to me - his offense simply isn't that good anymore against talented defenses. Even at Penn State they weren't running all over top end defenses. Everyone points to the big OSU game, but special teams were huge in that one and then most of the scoring was Barkley simply breaking one and two TD throws into tight coverage where the WR made great plays. Simply put I don't think he's really out-scheming anyone.

2) So if you're not going to out-smart teams with formations, etc. you better have great execution. We've seen that be a constant problem. Mullen was known for throwing out anything the team didn't run well the majority of the time and I think it's why he seemed less creative than in the early years. Once the talent base got up he took less chances and ran what he knew they could execute. Joe seems less willing to do that and we've paid a price for that.

3) No 1 and 2 get compounded when it's clear he just wasn't ready for the speed of SEC defenses. Even though he got to see one of the best ever in practice each week his first year he couldn't adjust his gameplan to counter it.

4) His offensive staff. Looked great on paper but not enough SEC experience there and it just never seemed to gel. He should have kept the kid that called our bowl game as a holdover instead of Breiner maybe. Not sure it would have helped or not.

5) Joe's personality. I still like him and guys with his personality have found a way to make it work at big programs before, but he's simply not mean enough when he had to be and he didn't hire enough bad cop coaches to compensate.

6) A little bit of bad luck. If the weather is better in KY last year and if Osirius and Guidry catch a few balls maybe it's the worst looking 10 win team in history but we get there. This year tutorgate I'm sure caused issues, he took a chance on splitting the locker room with Stevens only to see him go down week 2 and create uncertainty as the QB position the rest of the year.

7) Lack of explosive personnel and playing favorites. We don't have a lot of potential game breakers and unfortunately our best two (Hill and Guidry) are our most inconsistent in effort at times and seem to be our most difficult personalities. I think Joe tried to use positive reinforcement too much and instead should have made examples out of them at times even if it risked them quitting at some point.

8) Little bit of stubborness, which can be a good trait in a HC at times, but he needed help understanding how the SEC works and lots of rumors that he wasn't exactly always open to help.

Joe has failed to this point, but he's not an idiot. I get the feeling he's extremely annoyed at everything that has happened, but he's most annoyed at himself because he knows he didn't get it done and made some bad decisions along the way. I do really hope he can find a landing place and hopefully use what he's learned here and be successful at his next gig

+1

[coachnorm]

Both grew up in the North
Both considered to be top notch offensive guys when hired.
Both Spread offense guys- altho some differences
Both considered to be very smart men

To me the difference is SEC experience. Mullen was an SEC guy when he took the job. Moorhead has looked like a guy that was the HC at Bayou Academy that suddenly became the HC at Tupelo HS. The SEC is a different place and every team has athletes that get after you. As I've pointed out time and again- QB's have less time to make reads against SEC defenses. SEC defenses are built on speed and physicality. WE have DE's in the SEC that can make mistakes and still run you down. Other conferences don't have that top to bottom in their conferences. Mullen was ready for that- Moorhead was not.

Secondly- people like Moorhead. You always hear about what a great guy Joe is. Nobody ever says that about Mullen. or Saban. Or Harbaugh. What do people say about Mullen? "He's an asshole but he is a good football coach". What other coach in the SEC is said to be so well-liked? Not Saban, not Gus, not Jimbo, not Kirby, not Boom, etc.

Whomever our new coach is next week- hopefully has some SEC ties

I am on board with most of what C34 said. I would like to one up C34 and try to be C34 on steroids on issue. My preference for the job would be Hue Jackson, the former head coach of the Cleveland Browns. Hue has experience at the highest level, the NFL. Hue has significant experience in the Pac12 in addition, thus he knows recruiting. Hue is a flat out stud with a brain for offense at the highest level, good face for the program to recruits nationally. Hue has money in the bank from Cleveland Browns contract? Remember, Pete Carroll was in a similar situation when he arrived at the USC dumpster fire under Hacket. Look at Herman Edwards past game at Arizona State. Guys like Hue Jackson have their little black book with phone numbers of dormant talent and active talent. Didn't Pete Carroll swoop Ed Orgeron to USC in a heart beat? Just my thoughts to fellow Elitedoggers. Why recycle the same old names?

[basedog]

1) For sho no Sec experience

2) Way too soft to Coach in the rugged tough cut your throat Sec

3) Just a poor offensive overall staff

4) The nail in his coffin was Tommy Stevens, caused too much question marks and being hurt didn't help the situation. Plus Tommy Stevens wasn't an experienced QB coming PSU, Joe gambled and it killed him.

5) ED message board made him cry after the Tn loss

[SPMT]

Yup & Balis set the culture.

Thing is, once the culture & expectations are set, it's not terribly difficult to maintain it. That's why after Balis left, we were still able to keep on keeping on


A lot depends on what the S&C needs to do. It appears in college the S&C needs to set the tone of toughness and attitude, not necessarily athletic quality development.

There were a few games in Mullen's career where we looked flat/dead-legged on Saturday. Can't remember which game or which S&C coach but it was obvious and I remember hearing the team had run wind sprints or stadiums that Thursday.

Football is an aerobic alactic sport. There is little to no need for lactic training for performance requirements. Lactic training could help "mental toughness", however it is not directly related to the sport.

The sport requires short bursts of explosive activity repeated, typically with close to adequate rest - Alactic Power and Alactic Capacity are the primary training needs.

Series/drives can last multiple minutes therefore aerobic capacity and aerobic power to are needed, (i.e. long duration low intensity and/or moderate duration, moderate intensity is needed).

Very little lactic capacity or lactic power is needed in football. Anaerobic threshold training could be beneficial when facing spread teams.

Knowing how Balis trained athletes, I think his primary value was in setting the tone of mental toughness. His actual S&C training, according to interviews, does not necessarily align with science.

I believe under Mullen we recruited above average athletes who were already innately tough, bought into our mindset, and the S&C enhanced the mindset portion. The antithesis of Moorehead. This almost proves the point Moorehead has the athletes but doesn't instill the toughness. Like we all thought.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Haha our recruiting ranking would be in the 70s but our players would learn an expanded vocabulary

Our oline would also be better than we all think it should be too.

[DownwardDawg]

Yeah.... haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else on this board up until now.

Hahaha!!!!! +1

[KB21]

The SEC is a grind. You have to have a disciplined, physical team to compete on a weekly basis in the SEC. I think Joe came in without this understanding, and I don’t think he knows how to build that type of program.

The next head coach MUST have an understanding of what it takes to compete in the SEC.

[ShotgunDawg]

The correct answer to this is because Mullen is a much better coach.

Just like politics, everyone wants to put people in a box based on their resume and profile, however people are individuals and twins can be vastly different with virtually the same childhood.