So how/why did Dan transition to HC successfully and JoeMo, seemingly.....NOT?

[Indndawg]

Urban influence?

SEC exp.?

Lotsa coaching stops?

[Really Clark?]

Urban influence?

SEC exp.?

Lotsa coaching stops?

The bold is a major part of it but it was not just the Urban factor, remember they both were under the Bob Davie coaching tree as well. But may be the biggest part is, the coach has to fit the program or at a min. be in sync with the program and culture of a school. At it has to happen at the correct time.

Charlie Strong was also a part of this same tree, great fit and timing for him at Louisville. Texas was a bad fit and they never was in sync from day one, you see that failing from the get go. If he had stayed at Louisville, he may still be their HC or moved up to a program that actually fit him better than Texas. Wrong move, bad fit and bad timing

[Percho]

Would Charlie Strong fit at MSU?

[Really Clark?]

Would Charlie Strong fit at MSU?

He did not think so when we reached out to him years ago. So there may be some residual conflict there. But honestly, his star has dropped a lot bit with the Texas job and downward trend at USF.

[RiverCityDawg]

Urban influence?

SEC exp.?

Lotsa coaching stops?

One has the personality and attention to detail necessary to do it at State and another hasn't shown that so far. There are just some people who have the ability to manage a group of people towards a common goal and achieve that goal despite obstacles that get in the way. Some can do it but on a smaller scale or just with certain types of people.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I think the Urban influence is a lot of it. You have to remember, Dan is Urban's guy. He's not your typical coaching tree guy that was just an assistant under him. It started all the way back at Notre Dame under Bob Davie and he followed Meyer from Bowling Green all the way to Florida. He learned the ins and outs of how to run a successful football program from one of the greatest to do it at the college level. In that same time period that Urban and Dan were building Bowling Green, Utah, and Florida, Joe was under JD Brookhart at Akron and Randy Edsall at Connecticut. Not two guys who were revered for their coaching prowess. I think had Joe stayed under Franklin two or three years longer at Penn St then he might be ready to take on a big time program. I just don't think he knew exactly what he was getting into. This aint Fordham. You aren't dissecting film in a janitor's closet.

[Cooterpoot]

Would Charlie Strong fit at MSU?

Hell no! He can’t win in TX or FL. He won’t in MS in the SEC.

[Cooterpoot]

This is what I was talking about the other day. Look for a top OC coach that isn’t a one year wonder. He followed Urban and learned. Guys that do well one year aren’t the answer. They’re generally a flash in the pan.

[confucius say]

Dan, whom yall know I like, struggled for a while. He squandered a bowl game in 2009 and led a 2011 veteran team with 19 NFL guys (11 of whom were/are NFL starters) to 6-6.

Just saying.

[Cooterpoot]

He didn’t squander 2009...Jesus.

[confucius say]

He didn’t squander 2009...Jesus.

Not challenging the beyond the line of scrimmage pass vs Houston and mismanaging the end of LSU.

Those were young head coach errors, especially not challenging the pass. Dan himself said later he should have challenged it.

Squandered may be strong. But his decision making errors cost us a bowl game that season.

[msudawglb]

Urban influence?

SEC exp.?

Lotsa coaching stops?

Because Dan followed 7 years of Croom?s awfulness (therefore low expectations) and Dan had a run dominated offense that transitioned well with Croom?s recruits.

Joe followed the success of Dan and his pass offense didn?t transition well with Dan?s recruits. Oline was built for run blocking and hasn?t transitioned well to pass blocking.

[ShotgunDawg]

Personality and experience under Urban.

Mullen knew how to build a medieval program

[confucius say]

I think Dan did a better of job demanding accountability and being the ceo than joe. Joe needs to run a tighter ship. You have to be a hard ass first, then you become more of a players coach. Cannot do it the other way around.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Dan, whom yall know I like, struggled for a while. He squandered a bowl game in 2009 and led a 2011 veteran team with 19 NFL guys (11 of whom were/are NFL starters) to 6-6.

Just saying.

Looking back on what we know now yea you can say he squandered 09. But my god, we were coming out of the Croom era, and he drubbed OM to end the season. We knew the change was coming, just like he said on the mic that day "There's certainly one program in this state on the rise going in the right direction." I, along with 55,000 others, were ready to run through a wall for Dan after that. We had just gotten s*** on for 364 days by OM fans and we handed their ass to them on a silver platter. Dan learned on the job that year after the early close losses to LSU, Houston, and Ga Tech. He figured out what was going to work at Mississippi State and went to work developing it. And he unleashed the Relf Coast on OM that day.

[confucius say]

Looking back on what we know now yea you can say he squandered 09. But my god, we were coming out of the Croom era, and he drubbed OM to end the season. We knew the change was coming, just like he said on the mic that day "There's certainly one program in this state on the rise going in the right direction." I, along with 55,000 others, were ready to run through a wall for Dan after that. We had just gotten s*** on for 364 days by OM fans and we handed their ass to them on a silver platter. Dan learned on the job that year after the early close losses to LSU, Houston, and Ga Tech. He figured out what was going to work at Mississippi State and went to work developing it. And he unleashed the Relf Coast on OM that day.

Beating OM in 09 was huge for Dan. And it certainly helped to follow croom, no doubt.

[Johnson85]

Not challenging the beyond the line of scrimmage pass vs Houston and mismanaging the end of LSU.

Those were young head coach errors, especially not challenging the pass. Dan himself said later he should have challenged it.

Squandered may be strong. But his decision making errors cost us a bowl game that season.

Every coach makes mistakes. Dan took a team with huge holes at two very important positions (QB and FS) and played against a ridiculously tough schedule and was two bad calls in the UH game (LOS call and phantom holding call) and one good decision from Tyson Lee on two different plays (pitch to Boobie or put some air under the pass) and he goes bowling. He took a poorly coached team (that in fairness, was starving for competent coaching) and in one off season pretty much maximized their talent. He in no shape, form, or fashion squandered 2009. He just wasn't perfect in 2009. He was very good.

[Johnson85]

Because Dan followed 7 years of Croom?s awfulness (therefore low expectations) and Dan had a run dominated offense that transitioned well with Croom?s recruits.

Joe followed the success of Dan and his pass offense didn?t transition well with Dan?s recruits. Oline was built for run blocking and hasn?t transitioned well to pass blocking.

None of that is the problem. We are just poorly coached. Joe may be good at x's and o's, but our staff apparently sucks at teaching. We are awful at the little things. The first year, things like delay of games could have been blamed on transitioning offenses. Getting worse the second year is a function of not being able to teach. We are always going to have to have a staff that is good at coaching fundamentals if we are going to have steady success.
We can have high points in recruiting cycle where the talent gap between us and the top SEC teams is not that big (at least on the first string), but we are also going to have low points in the cycle. Dan's teams were good at fundamentals (other than maybe they were bad at WR fundamentals) and that was enough to get us to 6 or 7 wins against bad teams in the low parts of the cycle, and compete against good teams at the high parts of the cycle.

[confucius say]

Every coach makes mistakes. Dan took a team with huge holes at two very important positions (QB and FS) and played against a ridiculously tough schedule and was two bad calls in the UH game (LOS call and phantom holding call) and one good decision from Tyson Lee on two different plays (pitch to Boobie or put some air under the pass) and he goes bowling. He took a poorly coached team (that in fairness, was starving for competent coaching) and in one off season pretty much maximized their talent. He in no shape, form, or fashion squandered 2009. He just wasn't perfect in 2009. He was very good.

I didnt say squandered the whole season. I said a bowl game.

It is ok to say Dan > Joe and Dan made decision making errors that had he not made we would have been in a bowl game in 2009. Point being, coaches can improve and are not finished products. Joe needs to start showing improvement now.

[TheLostDawg]

I like Dan and appreciate what he did but come on, he was complacent. It seemed like once we got rolling, he just started going through the motions. He still runs the QB draw on 3 and 15 every time. You could call his plays from the stands. He was terrible at recruiting and never made coaches changes in offense that needed to be. Are y'all forgetting the country club? He now has a new job and that fire back. I wish that he had the attitude the last few years as he did when he was hired. You talk about his bowl streak but technically it's only by default. We should have never gone the year we ended up on St. Petersburg. Not only that, have y'all forgotten that we only won it because of a blocked field goal to win the game. That being said, Mullen brought us from being doormat status but to act like he was our answer and would have kept climbing had he stayed, well you're delusional. He might have been a better coach than Moorhead starting out. I think that Moorhead has the potential to be better but for that he needed to stay at Penn a few more years like y'all are saying. Cohen was crazy to not see this. Cohen was looking at down the road and I'm sure that he knew that mistakes were going to be made as they were with Mullen starting out. This costs us a lot of ground. That's on Cohen but it seemed Mullen was in the hot seat just as often as he was not while he was here. On top of that, the years we did okay to well, the headlines constantly read that he was leaving/job shopping.

[msudawglb]

None of that is the problem. We are just poorly coached. Joe may be good at x's and o's, but our staff apparently sucks at teaching. We are awful at the little things. The first year, things like delay of games could have been blamed on transitioning offenses. Getting worse the second year is a function of not being able to teach. We are always going to have to have a staff that is good at coaching fundamentals if we are going to have steady success.
We can have high points in recruiting cycle where the talent gap between us and the top SEC teams is not that big (at least on the first string), but we are also going to have low points in the cycle. Dan's teams were good at fundamentals (other than maybe they were bad at WR fundamentals) and that was enough to get us to 6 or 7 wins against bad teams in the low parts of the cycle, and compete against good teams at the high parts of the cycle.

That?s your opinion. Doesn?t make it right. Dan made a bunch of bone headed decisions his first few years and we got beat by some bad teams throughout all his years.

[ShotgunDawg]

Dan likely also benefited somewhat due to Croom being so bad that getting buy in from the players was much easier.

Think about it: the players trusted Mullen easier because he was better than Croom whereas the players are likely still questioning Joe because he's not Mullen.

The next MSU coach will actually have a leg up in this regard because they'll be following Joe

[was21]

Can't underestimate Urban Meyer's affect on Mullen. For all practical purposes he mentored Dan from day one and Dan was smart enough to grasp the entire picture of what it takes to be a very good head coach. With Moorhead it seems that an offensive scheme was hired rather than a coach

[TheLostDawg]

But to answer the question, because he has Grantham. He also has Hevesy which can coach an offensive line. When Grantham leaves the defense will go down, record goes down, harder to recruit, and then Dan will be in the hot seat. Dan can coach up talent. If he has the drive, he can be creative calling plays. It's just a matter of time before he gets complacent especially if Grantham stays to bail him out. I think Strickland knows how important Grantham is for Mullen to succeed which is why they will throw the bank at Grantham to keep him. Just wait. When Grantham leaves, the ship will start taking on water at Florida.

[BhamDawg205]

Dan
1. Used to speed of SEC

2. Brought coaches familiar w/ his expectations, offensive system, and the SEC.

3. Offensive philosophy fit players in recruiting footprint and not a drastic change in scheme.

4. Special teams was a priority.

Joe
1. Brought with him a mixed bag of coaches... No continuity.

2. Underestimated SEC reputation... NFL minor league

3. Too stubborn to adapt system to players

4. Offensive philosophy requires too much thinking. Not to say it can't work, but his system needs lots and lots of repetition... The 10,000 rule, don't think he'll make that long.

5. Special teams not important

6. Came in handing out suspensions left and right to instill discipline, but seems to be smoke and mirrors. This team has none.

[trojandawg]

He did not think so when we reached out to him years ago. So there may be some residual conflict there. But honestly, his star has dropped a lot bit with the Texas job and downward trend at USF.

did texas Screw him up that bad? he had it really going at Louisiville. wonder if just lost his mojo a bit while at Texas. I really thought he would be very successful at USF.

[TheLostDawg]

Dan
1. Used to speed of SEC

2. Brought coaches familiar w/ his expectations, offensive system, and the SEC.

3. Offensive philosophy fit players in recruiting footprint and not a drastic change in scheme.

4. Special teams was a priority.

Joe
1. Brought with him a mixed bag of coaches... No continuity.

2. Underestimated SEC reputation... NFL minor league

3. Too stubborn to adapt system to players

4. Offensive philosophy requires too much thinking. Not to say it can't work, but his system needs lots and lots of repetition... The 10,000 rule, don't think he'll make that long.

5. Special teams not important

6. Came in handing out suspensions left and right to instill discipline, but seems to be smoke and mirrors. This team has none.

This is comical.
Yes he brought in coaches that knew his system because they were almost always his buddies or coached under him and a lot of duds.
Speed of the SEC, what do you mean? Play calling which he used the same plays over and over and in the same situations, hardly ever adding anything new; Recruiting that he didn't do?
Special teams..? Come on. We didn't have a special team coach until year what of his tenure. He could never get a punter or kicker and the year he does, he takes one with him to Florida. Do you not remember how many kicks we missed over the year. We constantly missed extra points until he did hire a special teams coach which again took years for him to hire if I'm remembering correctly, someone fact check this.

Joe you might be right about all or none. If he stays this year we will see. Hopefully you're wrong but so far it looks like your hitting the nail on the head.

Again I just don't get y'all glorifying Mullen.

[Really Clark?]

did texas Screw him up that bad? he had it really going at Louisiville. wonder if just lost his mojo a bit while at Texas. I really thought he would be very successful at USF.

Yeah, I think Texas really messed with him. He did have a good first year coat-tailing Taggart success his last season at USF...I think he can be successful there still but he needs to finish out this year better than it?s started (they are 3-4) and get a lot of momentum for next season or he may be done for their as well.

[Gutter Cobreh]

Lots of fuzzy memories or revisionist history going on in this thread... link below to take you back 6 years ago when Mullen was in his 5th year and was feeling the "heat" of being in the hot seat...

It's worth a read if you have the time:

https://www.espn.com/blog/sec/post/_/id/74802/mullen-not-bothered-by-the-hot-seat

[Really Clark?]

This is comical.
Yes he brought in coaches that knew his system because they were almost always his buddies or coached under him and a lot of duds.
Speed of the SEC, what do you mean? Play calling which he used the same plays over and over and in the same situations, hardly ever adding anything new; Recruiting that he didn't do?
Special teams..? Come on. We didn't have a special team coach until year what of his tenure. He could never get a punter or kicker and the year he does, he takes one with him to Florida. Do you not remember how many kicks we missed over the year. We constantly missed extra points until he did hire a special teams coach which again took years for him to hire if I'm remembering correctly, someone fact check this.

Joe you might be right about all or none. If he stays this year we will see. Hopefully you're wrong but so far it looks like your hitting the nail on the head.

Again I just don't get y'all glorifying Mullen.

I respectfully dispute a good bit of that but just going by the special teams and extra points, DePasquale was perfect in Dan’s first and second year here. 50 of 50. So yeah you could not be more wrong. His 3rd year he was 36 for 37 so over Dan’s first 3 years he was 86 of 87 in extra points. Wow. I knew you were wrong but good lord that’s bad wrong.

ETA. Devin Bell missed one extra point in Dan’s 4th year. 43 of 44. He missed one in 2013.
Sobiesk missed 3 in 2014 but attempted a high of 59 that year which was 3rd most attempts that season.

[TheLostDawg]

Haha well one was more than enough for me. I know DePasquale was perfect.. Until he missed the kick in the music City bowl which costed everyone betting on State the line. I also won't forget all those great punts in the Alabama game first half when we played at Alabama.

[Really Clark?]

Haha well one was more than enough for me. I know DePasquale was perfect.. Until he missed the kick in the music City bowl which costed everyone betting on State the line. I also won't forget all those great punts in the Alabama game first half when we played at Alabama.

You talking about the 2014 game with Bell? He had a really bad game for sure but he was 5th in the league that year and averaged over 43 per punt that year. But that was a really bad game

[BhamDawg205]

This is comical.
Yes he brought in coaches that knew his system because they were almost always his buddies or coached under him and a lot of duds.
Speed of the SEC, what do you mean? Play calling which he used the same plays over and over and in the same situations, hardly ever adding anything new; Recruiting that he didn't do?
Special teams..? Come on. We didn't have a special team coach until year what of his tenure. He could never get a punter or kicker and the year he does, he takes one with him to Florida. Do you not remember how many kicks we missed over the year. We constantly missed extra points until he did hire a special teams coach which again took years for him to hire if I'm remembering correctly, someone fact check this.

Joe you might be right about all or none. If he stays this year we will see. Hopefully you're wrong but so far it looks like your hitting the nail on the head.

Again I just don't get y'all glorifying Mullen.

Shiid I was ready for Mullen to leave. His constant job hunting hurt us in recruiting as much as his laziness. I know other coaches used it against us. Him bringing in those coaches helped in the learning curve aspect. Urban and Mullen put starters on special teams, that's how important they felt about field position. Even Saban can't get a consistent FG kicker it's hit or miss. Those plays he ran didn't cause RB to dance, WR to release off the line late, or OL to be in stance 75%+ of the play clock. But I do agree his playbook needed some new pages. I hope we're all wrong on Joe, but doesn't look good.

[BB30]

This is comical.
Yes he brought in coaches that knew his system because they were almost always his buddies or coached under him and a lot of duds.
Speed of the SEC, what do you mean? Play calling which he used the same plays over and over and in the same situations, hardly ever adding anything new; Recruiting that he didn't do?
Special teams..? Come on. We didn't have a special team coach until year what of his tenure. He could never get a punter or kicker and the year he does, he takes one with him to Florida. Do you not remember how many kicks we missed over the year. We constantly missed extra points until he did hire a special teams coach which again took years for him to hire if I'm remembering correctly, someone fact check this.

Joe you might be right about all or none. If he stays this year we will see. Hopefully you're wrong but so far it looks like your hitting the nail on the head.

Again I just don't get y'all glorifying Mullen.

Maybe people are glorifying Mullen because he won more than any other coach has ever been able to win here? Maybe because he has a UF team that hasn't had stability in several years playing extremely well with a QB that never started a game in high school and will be challenging for the division in his second year on the job?

It wasn't like we were a powerhouse before Croom and all Mullen had to do was hold serve with former coaches. He literally built our program up in every facet from a stadium that held 40k people and facilities that were terrible along with a team that was atrocious into a consistent winner.

So what if he had his issues. Show me a coach that doesn't. Even the best in the country have issues. The dude won more than he didn't and that is better than the majority of coaches that have coached here.

[Gutter Cobreh]

Maybe people are glorifying Mullen because he won more than any other coach has ever been able to win here? Maybe because he has a UF team that hasn't had stability in several years playing extremely well with a QB that never started a game in high school and will be challenging for the division in his second year on the job?

It wasn't like we were a powerhouse before Croom and all Mullen had to do was hold serve with former coaches. He literally built our program up in every facet from a stadium that held 40k people and facilities that were terrible along with a team that was atrocious into a consistent winner.

So what if he had his issues. Show me a coach that doesn't. Even the best in the country have issues. The dude won more than he didn't and that is better than the majority of coaches that have coached here.

Isn't Joe's record above .500? Asking for a friend...

[Homedawg]

Isn't Joe's record above .500? Asking for a friend...

Not if he stays 9 years it won't.

[TheLostDawg]

So what if he had his issues. Show me a coach that doesn't. Even the best in the country have issues. The dude won more than he didn't and that is better than the majority of coaches that have coached here.

So we should be happy to have had a decent coach? We paid him to be a head coach, not to do the things he liked doing. He half a**ed recruiting. He let certain coaches get away with things on his offense and not the defense which is why he couldn't keep a DC until Grantham. He job searched every year. Look I appreciate what he did but we were just a stepping stone. If he really cared and took us serious he would have busted his butt in every aspect of HC like he did in the beginning. I'm sure that I'll get to the point and remember Mullen for all the good he did but right now I haven't forgotten all the bad which in my mind was about even. Yeah he got people to show up and start giving to the program but that's just part of being a HC. We were at the bottom with only one direction to go. Of course people got excited, showed up, and gave back because we were relevant again. Any decent coach in the world could have done that. Mullen is a good coach don't get me wrong, but he made a lot of mistakes, got complacent, and didn't care about us. I'm not glorifying someone like that. Not yet at least.

[Todd4State]

Not if he stays 9 years it won't.

May not be after two years.

[Todd4State]

So we should be happy to have had a decent coach? We paid him to be a head coach, not to do the things he liked doing. He half a**ed recruiting. He let certain coaches get away with things on his offense and not the defense which is why he couldn't keep a DC until Grantham. He job searched every year. Look I appreciate what he did but we were just a stepping stone. If he really cared and took us serious he would have busted his butt in every aspect of HC like he did in the beginning. I'm sure that I'll get to the point and remember Mullen for all the good he did but right now I haven't forgotten all the bad which in my mind was about even. Yeah he got people to show up and start giving to the program but that's just part of being a HC. We were at the bottom with only one direction to go. Of course people got excited, showed up, and gave back because we were relevant again. Any decent coach in the world could have done that. Mullen is a good coach don't get me wrong, but he made a lot of mistakes, got complacent, and didn't care about us. I'm not glorifying someone like that. Not yet at least.

Well said. I laugh when some people call him a top 10 coach. And yet Miami and Maryland didn’t want him.

[Ezsoil]

Not challenging the beyond the line of scrimmage pass vs Houston and mismanaging the end of LSU.

Those were young head coach errors, especially not challenging the pass. Dan himself said later he should have challenged it.

Squandered may be strong. But his decision making errors cost us a bowl game that season.


Ding ding ding we have a winner

[Cooterpoot]

Well said. I laugh when some people call him a top 10 coach. And yet Miami and Maryland didn’t want him.

And look at those two programs. They wish they had him now. Although, Maryland was never a place he wanted to be.

[Cooterpoot]

I didnt say squandered the whole season. I said a bowl game.

It is ok to say Dan > Joe and Dan made decision making errors that had he not made we would have been in a bowl game in 2009. Point being, coaches can improve and are not finished products. Joe needs to start showing improvement now.

And you?re still wrong. That 2009 season was strong considering what we didn?t have. We had a midget at QB. Yet, we were one play from a bowl game. He wasn?t perfect, but no coach is.

[TheLostDawg]

And you?re still wrong. That 2009 season was strong considering what we didn?t have. We had a midget at QB. Yet, we were one play from a bowl game. He wasn?t perfect, but no coach is.

Some might be saying the same thing about Moorhead after this year.

The thing is Cohen tried to replicate the Mullen hire. We didn't need that. We needed someone established that didn't have growing pains. We didn't need to risk hiring an up and coming. Florida learned from that mistake and went after a coach this time that might not be the best but is a good coach with a good staff and is consistent. He was also given a loaded team. They looked at the downfalls of their potential coach (recruiting) and decided that their school's popularity would help negate some of the coaches major limitations. That's my view why Mullen succeeded and Moorhead isn't. Moorhead is going through the same growing pains Mullen did. Maybe not the same categories but growing pains none the less. Same with Cohen and Strickland. Strickland learned from Rick Ray and hired Howland. The thing is our system keeps hiring up and coming and no one established. Until we stop this, there will always be growing pains. It doesn't matter who we hire or for what. That's my $0.02.

[Really Clark?]

Some might be saying the same thing about Moorhead after this year.

The thing is Cohen tried to replicate the Mullen hire. We didn't need that. We needed someone established that didn't have growing pains. We didn't need to risk hiring an up and coming. Florida learned from that mistake and went after a coach this time that might not be the best but is a good coach with a good staff and is consistent. He was also given a loaded team. They looked at the downfalls of their potential coach (recruiting) and decided that their school's popularity would help negate some of the coaches major limitations. That's my view why Mullen succeeded and Moorhead isn't. Moorhead is going through the same growing pains Mullen did. Maybe not the same categories but growing pains none the less. Same with Cohen and Strickland. Strickland learned from Rick Ray and hired Howland. The thing is our system keeps hiring up and coming and no one established. Until we stop this, there will always be growing pains. It doesn't matter who we hire or for what. That's my $0.02.

I don’t know. Mullen in his first 2 years showed a pretty consistent upward trend. We are trending down so far with Moorehead. We will see how the season plays out but a loss tomorrow will be 4 in a row. First time since 2005 we have lost at least 4 in a row.

[Coach34]

Isn't Joe's record above .500? Asking for a friend...

Not if you add up when he has been the favorite vs the underdog.

[confucius say]

Not if you add up when he has been the favorite vs the underdog.

I dont follow. Are you saying joe doesn?t have a winning record as a favorite?

[confucius say]

And you?re still wrong. That 2009 season was strong considering what we didn?t have. We had a midget at QB. Yet, we were one play from a bowl game. He wasn?t perfect, but no coach is.

That 2009 team had 14 nfl players, including three DL who started games in 2009 and later in the nfl. Does the 2019 team have 14 NFL guys?

And Dan had relf on the bench all season. When he finally gave him the keys to the car in the egg bowl, relf ran all over them.

[Coach34]

I dont follow. Are you saying joe doesn?t have a winning record as a favorite?

if he loses tomorrow- JoVester is going to be 5-10 vs P5. He's not only not covered- he's lost 5 games as a 6.5 point favorite or more.

[Coach34]

That 2009 team had 14 nfl players, including three DL who started games in 2009 and later in the nfl. Does the 2019 team have 14 NFL guys?

And Dan had relf on the bench all season. When he finally gave him the keys to the car in the egg bowl, relf ran all over them.

That 2009 team had been part of a loser program and a loser mentality. You have to learn how to win and earn the right to win. The 2009 team had to go from a Jr High offense to a Spread offense. A complete transition for that team. Wesley Carroll bailed when Mullen was hired and we relied on a midget and Relf- who was suspended a couple of games that season because he was being held accountable. You point out of the Houston game where we got hosed on calls and then LSU where our midget QB made the wrong decision at crunch time. Great kid but he folded in the moment. Plus- LSU's guy made an absolute NFL play in crunch time to stop us. It is what it is. We made humongous strides as a program in 2009

[SPMT]

I don?t know. Mullen in his first 2 years showed a pretty consistent upward trend. We are trending down so far with Moorehead. We will see how the season plays out but a loss tomorrow will be 4 in a row. First time since 2005 we have lost at least 4 in a row.

Total agreement. It was clear Mullen had "something". He had his mistakes, but the comparison is way off.

You could tell Mullen was somewhat conservative, but he would attack weaknesses or accentuate our strengths. And he had an aggressive mentality overall. He slowed the game down completely to beat Florida at home and tried to speed it up other times. He had QBs as diverse as Chris Relf, Dak, and Russell. That's where you see if a coach is good or not. He used them to the best of their abilities within the realm of his experience.

In contrast, other than one game ('18 Auburn), Moorehead has NOT fit the system to the player, he's done the opposite, JUST LIKE Croom (see Omar Conner).

Lastly, Mullen created a tradition and handed it to Moorehead and Moorehead is destroying it.

[Gutter Cobreh]

Not if you add up when he has been the favorite vs the underdog.

You're splitting hairs and adding components to deflect. The statement was made that we historically haven't had coaches that finished their tenure above .500 and that number is considered successful here. Joe's record is currently above .500.

I'm not suggesting that Joe is the long term fit or would/should be here for a decade. What I will say is that it's asinine to give a coach only two years. Hell, Bama gave all their failed coaches after Bama more than two years - even with their rich history (except for Mike Price because of his propensity for strippers).

[SPMT]

You're splitting hairs and adding components to deflect. The statement was made that we historically haven't had coaches that finished their tenure above .500 and that number is considered successful here. Joe's record is currently above .500.

I'm not suggesting that Joe is the long term fit or would/should be here for a decade. What I will say is that it's asinine to give a coach only two years. Hell, Bama gave all their failed coaches after Bama more than two years - even with their rich history (except for Mike Price because of his propensity for strippers).

Alabama fired Ray Perkins, an alum, at 32-15-1. They fired Curry after three years at 26-10.

Do not compare MSU to Bama.

[Coach34]

You're splitting hairs and adding components to deflect. The statement was made that we historically haven't had coaches that finished their tenure above .500 and that number is considered successful here. Joe's record is currently above .500.

I'm not suggesting that Joe is the long term fit or would/should be here for a decade. What I will say is that it's asinine to give a coach only two years. Hell, Bama gave all their failed coaches after Bama more than two years - even with their rich history (except for Mike Price because of his propensity for strippers).

Joe didnt step into a rebuild as most coaches do- he was handed the keys to a program with 8 straight bowl games and a loaded team in 2018. He is 11-9 since with a group that should have been 15-5 at worst. A loss tomorrow makes him 11-10 with the best talent he will coach at State. It's assinine to continue to support what you clearly see isnt working

[Really Clark?]

You're splitting hairs and adding components to deflect. The statement was made that we historically haven't had coaches that finished their tenure above .500 and that number is considered successful here. Joe's record is currently above .500.

I'm not suggesting that Joe is the long term fit or would/should be here for a decade. What I will say is that it's asinine to give a coach only two years. Hell, Bama gave all their failed coaches after Bama more than two years - even with their rich history (except for Mike Price because of his propensity for strippers).

They have not given a coach another season after a losing season, if it was not their first year, since Whitworth in the 50’s (coach right before Bear). Heck they fired Shula for 6-6 after he won 10 the year before. Dubose was fired after 3 wins, year before 10 wins. Shula and Dubose both were given lead way because of sanctions as well in their first year

[Cooterpoot]

That 2009 team had 14 nfl players, including three DL who started games in 2009 and later in the nfl. Does the 2019 team have 14 NFL guys?

And Dan had relf on the bench all season. When he finally gave him the keys to the car in the egg bowl, relf ran all over them.

And they weren’t all starters that year and most didn’t even really play in the NFL. That’s a misleading statement. It’s not like Joe who had 3 first round picks last year and couldn’t put his finger in his ass he was so lost.

[Really Clark?]

Alabama fired Ray Perkins, an alum, at 32-15-1. They fired Curry after three years at 26-10.

Do not compare MSU to Bama.

Curry resigned, yeah Bama people debate it but it was more about him actually talking with Newton and pissing off Bama admin.

[TheLostDawg]

1 Mullen night have trended up but again, any decent coach would have.
2 we are going down with Moorhead because he's learning the ropes just like Mullen did. The difference is Moorhead was handed a better team. Comparing Mullen and Moorhead first two years are like comparing apples and oranges. You don't know if Mullen would have done any different. Mullen had never been a head coach much less a HC at an SEC school. That being said once again it's Cohen's fault for not hiring someone more experienced. He should have hired someone more prepared to handle the situation and build on it.

[confucius say]

That 2009 team had been part of a loser program and a loser mentality. You have to learn how to win and earn the right to win. The 2009 team had to go from a Jr High offense to a Spread offense. A complete transition for that team. Wesley Carroll bailed when Mullen was hired and we relied on a midget and Relf- who was suspended a couple of games that season because he was being held accountable. You point out of the Houston game where we got hosed on calls and then LSU where our midget QB made the wrong decision at crunch time. Great kid but he folded in the moment. Plus- LSU's guy made an absolute NFL play in crunch time to stop us. It is what it is. We made humongous strides as a program in 2009

That can all be true (last sentence is spot on) and it still be true that Dan made decisions in 2009 that cost us a bowl game.

That was my original point in this - that coaches can grow and evolve and get better at a program. Look at Dabo, ED O, even Saban. Here is to hoping joe can do the same.

[TheLostDawg]

And again it goes back to hiring Cohen as AD. He's making the same mistakes as Strickland. If you want to blame someone for all the misses, blame the board. They are the ones that should be going out and making sure we hire the right people to coach, the right people to get money from boosters to pay the coaches, etc. The problem goes a lot higher than hiring Moorhead. It seems like we just go in circles with our hires. Hiring from within has to change. We need some fresh ideas and someone who has a will to win and not taking the easy road if going through the motions. It's no wonder Mullen was complacent

[Coach34]

That can all be true (last sentence is spot on) and it still be true that Dan made decisions in 2009 that cost us a bowl game.

That was my original point in this - that coaches can grow and evolve and get better at a program. Look at Dabo, ED O, even Saban. Here is to hoping joe can do the same.

Dude- I agree 100% Dan got better as a HC during his tenure at State. I just dont blame him for 5-7 in 2009 because I think his players caused it because they werent used to winning more than they werent coached well enough to be 6-6. I certainly didnt agree with Dan Walsh's playcalling throughtout his tenure. But I never said he wasnt a good football coach or didnt do a good job as our HC. My biggest problem with Mullen was his constant job shopping come November- that just irked me and why I reported it every year. It just pissed me off. Focus on winning the Egg Bowl and getting to the Sugar Bowl mf'er- do that and the jobs available will be there....

[TheLostDawg]

That can all be true (last sentence is spot on) and it still be true that Dan made decisions in 2009 that cost us a bowl game.

That was my original point in this - that coaches can grow and evolve and get better at a program. Look at Dabo, ED O, even Saban. Here is to hoping joe can do the same.

Yes he will grow like Mullen did. This goes back to what I have been saying though, hiring Moorhead meant a learning curve. We were in the position of not missing a beat if we'd have hired someone with experience. However the learning curve seems a lot steeper than anyone expected which will probably cost Joe his job. I think that Joe will be successful one day, it's just not looking like it will be at State. If he is here next year, he's going to have to do what ole Miss did and hire someone to help him out. That may be a good OC that knows him or just an old HC to help him manage his time better with all that he needs to do.

[confucius say]

And they weren’t all starters that year and most didn’t even really play in the NFL. That’s a misleading statement. It’s not like Joe who had 3 first round picks last year and couldn’t put his finger in his ass he was so lost.

Most didnt really play in the nfl? What?

Guys like Cox, Boyd, and Kyle love.
Wright, banks, Cheney, Dixon.
McPhee, Gabe Jackson, skinner, and sherrod.

And that does not even count guys like Chris white and Charles Mitchell and who had a cup of coffee in the nfl. And bumphis who made a practice squad.

Truth is, that 2009 team was just as talented as this 2019 team.

I do believe that 2009 team played better than this team so far though.

[Coach34]

Most didnt really play in the nfl? What?

Guys like Cox, Boyd, and Kyle love.
Wright, banks, Cheney, Dixon.
McPhee, Gabe Jackson, skinner, and sherrod.

And that does not even count guys like Chris white and Charles Mitchell and who had a cup of coffee in the nfl. And bumphis who made a practice squad.

Truth is, that 2009 team was just as talented as this 2019 team.

I do believe that 2009 team played better than this team so far though.

Here is where some sense has to come into play. A player at 19 is not as good as he will be at 21. Athletes grow and get better with time. Having a bunch of young talent is great- only if you have it down the road when it becomes experienced talent.

2015 Dak was alot better than 2012 Dak
2011 Gabe Jackson was alot better than 2009 Gabe Jackson
2018 Jeffrey Simmons was an animal compared to 2016 Jeffrey Simmons

[Really Clark?]

Most didnt really play in the nfl? What?

Guys like Cox, Boyd, and Kyle love.
Wright, banks, Cheney, Dixon.
McPhee, Gabe Jackson, skinner, and sherrod.

And that does not even count guys like Chris white and Charles Mitchell and who had a cup of coffee in the nfl. And bumphis who made a practice squad.

Truth is, that 2009 team was just as talented as this 2019 team.

I do believe that 2009 team played better than this team so far though.

6 of those future NFL players listed were true freshman in 2009 and thrown into the fire from day one. That is a huge difference playing that many true freshman. And Mitchell was a Soph as well. Nobody knew what it really took to win in the league until 2010. They learned on the job but they were not close to the player that they would become until after under the staffs coaching and conditioning.

[confucius say]

Here is where some sense has to come into play. A player at 19 is not as good as he will be at 21. Athletes grow and get better with time. Having a bunch of young talent is great- only if you have it down the road when it becomes experienced talent.

2015 Dak was alot better than 2012 Dak
2011 Gabe Jackson was alot better than 2009 Gabe Jackson
2018 Jeffrey Simmons was an animal compared to 2016 Jeffrey Simmons

I agree. We are playing several freshmen now too. Lovett, pick, crumedy, Emerson, jarrion, Shrader.

But in 2009, McPhee, Cheney, love, Dixon, Sherrod, Wright. All upperclassmen on that team. 2019 does not have 6 NFL upperclassmen. Hell i am not sure we have 3 when you take gay out (autry too for that matter).

[confucius say]

6 of those future NFL players listed were true freshman in 2009 and thrown into the fire from day one. That is a huge difference playing that many true freshman. And Mitchell was a Soph as well. Nobody knew what it really took to win in the league until 2010. They learned on the job but they were not close to the player that they would become until after under the staffs coaching and conditioning.

Sound familiar?? Pick, Emerson, jarrion, Schraeder. Other freshmen like Lovett and crumedy too.

And 09 had an nfl running back. Do you think 19 has a single offensive nfl skill guy playing?

[Coach34]

I agree. We are playing several freshmen now too. Lovett, pick, crumedy, Emerson, jarrion, Shrader.

But in 2009, McPhee, Cheney, love, Dixon, Sherrod, Wright. All upperclassmen on that team. 2019 does not have 6 NFL upperclassmen. Hell i am not sure we have 3 when you take gay out (autry too for that matter).

but in 2009 we were in transition. They had to transition to a new coach that made them better. They were losers in 2008. Losers. The guys in 2017 went 9-4. They worked hard and were used to winning. What changed?

[confucius say]

but in 2009 we were in transition. They had to transition to a new coach that made them better. They were losers in 2008. Losers. The guys in 2017 went 9-4. They worked hard and were used to winning. What changed?

The 2009 team was 5-7, one game better than 2008, 4-8.

The guys who went 8-4 in 2017 also went 8-4 in 2018.

But to answer your question, what changed from 2017 to now is those guys are no longer here. Who that contributed in 2017 is playing in 2019? If they were still here, we would be 8-4 again. Maybe 9-3.

We have a talent/experience problem right now. And I am not defending joe, as he damn sure is not helping matters.

[Really Clark?]

Sound familiar?? Pick, Emerson, jarrion, Schraeder. Other freshmen like Lovett and crumedy too.

And 09 had an nfl running back. Do you think 19 has a single offensive nfl skill guy playing?

Not close man. The shear number of snaps and starts the 2009 true freshman played was close to 10 times more than these freshman. Heck Broomfield had 3 starts and Heavens had 1 in 2009. Pick has only played in 3 games, not started just played in 3 games. And Shrader is playing by default and started 2 times, we had to play those young guys in 2009.

We will have to see if Hill makes the NFL, the talent is there but he is not a complete back yet. Tyson and Relf (Soph) were our QB’s as well.

Sorry but the number of snaps those freshman played and started was a ton more than these guys. And Gabe Jackson and Skinner redshirted in 2009, so they don’t count either.

[confucius say]

Not close man. The shear number of snaps and starts the 2009 true freshman played was close to 10 times more than these freshman. Heck Broomfield had 3 starts and Heavens had 1 in 2009. Pick has only played in 3 games, not started just played in 3 games. And Shrader is playing by default and started 2 times, we had to play those young guys in 2009.

We will have to see if Hill makes the NFL, the talent is there but he is not a complete back yet. Tyson and Relf (Soph) were our QB’s as well.

Sorry but the number of snaps those freshman played and started was a ton more than these guys. And Gabe Jackson and Skinner redshirted in 2009, so they don’t count either.

Count Lovett and crumedy. They are freshmen who have never played just like cox and Boyd in 2009. If anything, Cox and Boyd in 2009 > Lovett and crumedy in 2019. 2009 dL with sr Kyle love and jr McPhee and cox and Boyd >> 2019.

And Shrader will start 7 games and play in 11 and is not playing by default (tommy is healthy to play).

Count the freshmen snaps at the end of the year and there will be little difference in 2009 and 2019.

Also, take 2009 best lb (KJ Wright) and beat dL (Kyle love) off the field like 2019 has done with gay and autry.

2019 not as talented as 2009 and just as reliant on freshmen as 2009.

[Gutter Cobreh]

They have not given a coach another season after a losing season, if it was not their first year, since Whitworth in the 50?s (coach right before Bear). Heck they fired Shula for 6-6 after he won 10 the year before. Dubose was fired after 3 wins, year before 10 wins. Shula and Dubose both were given lead way because of sanctions as well in their first year

That's all good and well, but doesn't change the fact we don't have their tradition and they've not fired a coach after their second season. We chase them, but yet we're willing to do something they've never done.

[Really Clark?]

Count Lovett and crumedy. They are freshmen who have never played just like cox and Boyd in 2009. If anything, Cox and Boyd in 2009 > Lovett and crumedy in 2019. 2009 dL with sr Kyle love and jr McPhee and cox and Boyd >> 2019.

And Shrader will start 7 games and play in 11 and is not playing by default (tommy is healthy to play).

Count the freshmen snaps at the end of the year and there will be little difference in 2009 and 2019.

Also, take 2009 best lb (KJ Wright) and beat dL (Kyle love) off the field like 2019 has done with gay and autry.

2019 not as talented as 2009 and just as reliant on freshmen as 2009.

Sorry it’s not close and won’t be close. Those true freshman had nearly 30 starts and will play a ton more snaps than these freshman. It won’t be close. They were pressed in to duty very early because we had too. Lovett and Crumedy are redshirt freshman not true freshman. Yes Cox was better but Boyd really didn’t come in until late in the season 2009-2010. He wasn’t ready. Cox and Boyd were more talented but they had no experience and had steeper learning curve. Lovett and Crumedy have has nearly 2 years in the system. It is not close to the same.

[Really Clark?]

That's all good and well, but doesn't change the fact we don't have their tradition and they've not fired a coach after their second season. We chase them, but yet we're willing to do something they've never done.

Since Bear they have never had someone with a losing record in their second year either. Not the same

[Coach34]

This year's team starts alot of Sr's and Jr's. We are going to lose at least 11 starters off this team for next year. Hill is leaving...Dantzler and Gay are likely gone. This was a veteran team and it is underperforming- just like last season.

If you cant see the regression- you are blind

[confucius say]

Sorry it’s not close and won’t be close. Those true freshman had nearly 30 starts and will play a ton more snaps than these freshman. It won’t be close. They were pressed in to duty very early because we had too. Lovett and Crumedy are redshirt freshman not true freshman. Yes Cox was better but Boyd really didn’t come in until late in the season 2009-2010. He wasn’t ready. Cox and Boyd were more talented but they had no experience and had steeper learning curve. Lovett and Crumedy have has nearly 2 years in the system. It is not close to the same.

It is exactly the same. Are you trying to tell us that Lovett in 2019 is a better football player than cox in 2009? Please. And Boyd 2009>crumedy 2019.

We will have more freshman snaps this year than 2009 if GS, crumedy, Lovett, and Emerson stay healthy. That is 37 starts right there.

[confucius say]

This year's team starts alot of Sr's and Jr's. We are going to lose at least 11 starters off this team for next year. Hill is leaving...Dantzler and Gay are likely gone. This was a veteran team and it is underperforming- just like last season.

If you cant see the regression- you are blind

Agree on regression.

Not on the 11.

Cole
Landrews
Leo
Rivers

Guidry
Thomas
Green
Williams
Phillips.

If you want to count Mo that would be 10, but Emerson will start more games than Mo and will have played twice the snaps so I would count that position as a returning starter instead of starter lost.

[Gutter Cobreh]

Since Bear they have never had someone with a losing record in their second year either. Not the same

Ray Perkins in '84 says hello.
Gene Stallings in '93 (his 4th year) would also like to be recognized.

You want to add extra qualifications to the discussion because you can't admit you're wrong, I'll play along and ask you a question. How many coaches have we had, in our history, that we fired after their second year because they had a losing record? I'll hang up and wait...

[Really Clark?]

It is exactly the same. Are you trying to tell us that Lovett in 2019 is a better football player than cox in 2009? Please. And Boyd 2009>crumedy 2019.

We will have more freshman snaps this year than 2009 if GS, crumedy, Lovett, and Emerson stay healthy. That is 37 starts right there.

Quit counting redshirt freshman. In 2009 we started and played way more TRUE freshman than we will this year. Period. It’s an ignorant argument that guys who have been in the program for 2 years are somehow just as green and less conditioned that a true freshman. It’s not close, it won’t be close.

[dawgday166]

The 2009 team was 5-7, one game better than 2008, 4-8.

The guys who went 8-4 in 2017 also went 8-4 in 2018.

But to answer your question, what changed from 2017 to now is those guys are no longer here. Who that contributed in 2017 is playing in 2019? If they were still here, we would be 8-4 again. Maybe 9-3.

We have a talent/experience problem right now. And I am not defending joe, as he damn sure is not helping matters.

Transition from 2017 to 2018 should've been better. A junior laden team which goes 9-4/10-3 progressing a level to seniors with a returning QB is almost always better just due to game experience. Game experience like the games at AU & Ga in 2017 should've been something they could draw on in hostile situations.

1) Take into account too that although Ky was a better Ky, we still should've beat them cause we were just better across the board personnel wise.

2) FL was a soph and jr laden team with a new coach and we were at home ... we just should've beat them. Talent wise it was somewhat close but they had a new coach too, were younger, and we were at home.

3) LSU we had waxed the year before ... they weren't any better in 2018 .. we were at least as good personnel wise from an experience/talent standpoint. They had a new QB and were making a transition to an ENTIRELY different offensive scheme too. Burrow of last year is not the same as Burrow of this year.

4) Bama was way off in 2018 ... not the same Bama even as in 2017 when we took them to the mat. They were down some LBs in 2017 but still ... that D was much softer than any Bama D under Saban except for this year's. Of course refs wouldn't have let us win Bama either way.

At absolute worst we should've been 2-2 in those games.

My problem with Joe goes back to Ky game last year. Alright, he and the team take that for granted and lose. He should've rolled up his sleeves, reviewed film to get a handle on the speed and matchups he had faced, use that to get ready for the FL matchups, and then coach the team hard the next week, and lay a whuppin on FL. But he doesn't do that. It's the same ole ho-hum, my offense will work regardless soft approach to the next game. Y'all are doing great guys blah, blah, blah.

My biggest thing with Joe that I'm becoming convinced of is that either he does not watch enough film or he cannot visualize the disparities in matchups or where he can take advantage. And he also coaches the team soft, doesn't work them hard enough, and they don't play with an edge.

Every week when we lose he comes in with some excuse like last week LSU using different blitz packages than they had used all year against us and we had problems handling it. I don't even believe they did that honestly. Why would they do that against our anemic offense and give more footage to AU & Bama before playing them?? But let's say they did do that ... can he not adjust?? Last year Allen for Ky ate our lunch and Fitz had practically no time to throw. One guy and not a single attempt at an adjustment to take him into account.

[BogeyGolfer]

Urban influence?

SEC exp.?

Lotsa coaching stops?

Because he is a better coach....

[dawgday166]

Here is where some sense has to come into play. A player at 19 is not as good as he will be at 21. Athletes grow and get better with time. Having a bunch of young talent is great- only if you have it down the road when it becomes experienced talent.

2015 Dak was alot better than 2012 Dak
2011 Gabe Jackson was alot better than 2009 Gabe Jackson
2018 Jeffrey Simmons was an animal compared to 2016 Jeffrey Simmons

I don't know why people don't understand this. And a senior with some juniors laden team that had gone 9-4 (and should've been 10-3) the year before should be better than a team with mostly equal mix of jr and sophs even if that team has slightly more NFL talent.

ETA: Something else folks aren't taking into account. The AU team we faced in 2018 was pretty close to AU in 2017 which won the west. Stout D, returning QB, etc. Lost some Olineman I think tho. The Ga team we faced in 2017 was far superior to any team we faced in 2018 ... and it ain't even close.

[Really Clark?]

Ray Perkins in '84 says hello.
Gene Stallings in '93 (his 4th year) would also like to be recognized.

You want to add extra qualifications to the discussion because you can't admit you're wrong, I'll play along and ask you a question. How many coaches have we had, in our history, that we fired after their second year because they had a losing record? I'll hang up and wait...

Yeah sorry missed Perkins. Stallings never had a losing record. Wins were vacated later.

Didn’t add anything but did miss Perkins, who they fired after a 10 win season.

WE have been stupid enough to hang into coaches too long. Vandy has fired coaches after just 1 and 2 seasons but we can’t? But as far as us historically, before McKeen, we fired multiple coaches after just 1 or 2 seasons. It was pretty common back then.

[confucius say]

Quit counting redshirt freshman. In 2009 we started and played way more TRUE freshman than we will this year. Period. It’s an ignorant argument that guys who have been in the program for 2 years are somehow just as green and less conditioned that a true freshman. It’s not close, it won’t be close.

Who said anything about being green and less conditioned? Who cares? 2009 Cox was a better football player than 2019 Lovett, or at least as good.

It does not matter how many years a guy has been in college if the younger guy is better. Hell Lovett is better than Sr Kendall Jones right now. By your logic, 2009 had a huge advantage on 2019 because Tyson was a sr and more conditioned and less green than Shrader as a true freshman.

2019 more reliant on freshmen than 2009.

[DownwardDawg]

Every coach makes mistakes. Dan took a team with huge holes at two very important positions (QB and FS) and played against a ridiculously tough schedule and was two bad calls in the UH game (LOS call and phantom holding call) and one good decision from Tyson Lee on two different plays (pitch to Boobie or put some air under the pass) and he goes bowling. He took a poorly coached team (that in fairness, was starving for competent coaching) and in one off season pretty much maximized their talent. He in no shape, form, or fashion squandered 2009. He just wasn't perfect in 2009. He was very good.

Or.....imagine if Relf had been in there with Dixon inside the 10 yard line. Dan didn?t play Relf until the egg bowl. That was easily a 7 or more win team.

Just one of the many reasons I?ll always say Dan is a good coach. He?s far from a great coach.

[Gutter Cobreh]

Yeah sorry missed Perkins. Stallings never had a losing record. Wins were vacated later.

Didn’t add anything but did miss Perkins, who they fired after a 10 win season.

WE have been stupid enough to hang into coaches too long. Vandy has fired coaches after just 1 and 2 seasons but we can’t? But as far as us historically, before McKeen, we fired multiple coaches after just 1 or 2 seasons. It was pretty common back then.

Gotcha. We're not necessarily far apart in our views, but I'm just a bit more skeptical in cutting bait after two years. I don't think it gives you enough information to make an informed decision. Others, have seen all they need and I respect their opinion.

[dawgday166]

This year's team starts alot of Sr's and Jr's. We are going to lose at least 11 starters off this team for next year. Hill is leaving...Dantzler and Gay are likely gone. This was a veteran team and it is underperforming- just like last season.

If you cant see the regression- you are blind

Why is Hill leaving?

[Really Clark?]

Or.....imagine if Relf had been in there with Dixon inside the 10 yard line. Dan didn?t play Relf until the egg bowl. That was easily a 7 or more win team.

Just one of the many reasons I?ll always say Dan is a good coach. He?s far from a great coach.

Relf was working through issues and suspensions during the season. Mullen has to watch how he handled that situation as a first year HC.

[dawgday166]

Who said anything about being green and less conditioned? Who cares? 2009 Cox was a better football player than 2019 Lovett, or at least as good.

It does not matter how many years a guy has been in college if the younger guy is better. Hell Lovett is better than Sr Kendall Jones right now. By your logic, 2009 had a huge advantage on 2019 because Tyson was a sr and more conditioned and less green than Shrader as a true freshman.

2019 more reliant on freshmen than 2009.

No it's not. I just looked at 2009 roster. THAT is a freshman loaded roster. KJ Wright (Jr transfer), Chris White (Jr transfer), Sherrod (Jr), Pernell McPhee (Jr transfer), Dixon (Sr and much better than Hill), Tyson Lee (Sr) were about the only upper class contributors. Everyone else was Soph or Frosh. Cox as a Frosh was certainly better than any of our Dlinemen this year.

[confucius say]

No it's not. I just looked at 2009 roster. THAT is a freshman loaded roster. KJ Wright (Jr transfer), Chris White (Jr transfer), Sherrod (Jr), Pernell McPhee (Jr transfer), Dixon (Sr and much better than Hill), Tyson Lee (Sr) were about the only upper class contributors. Everyone else was Soph or Frosh. Cox as a Frosh was certainly better than any of our Dlinemen this year.

Ugh, Kyle love, jamar Cheney, Brandon McRae, Leon berry, Langston, hanrahan, brignone, Marcus Washington, ducre. That is 9 more off the top of my head. And KJ was not a juco transfer.

Look, Joe has underachieved. This should be a bowl team. But this teams ingredients are no better than 2009.

[dawgday166]

Ugh, Kyle love, jamar Cheney, Brandon McRae, Leon berry, Langston, hanrahan, brignone, Marcus Washington, ducre. That is 9 more off the top of my head. And KJ was not a juco transfer.

Look, Joe has underachieved. This should be a bowl team. But this teams ingredients are no better than 2009.

I looked for folks that jumped out as pretty darn good to me and missed a couple or three. But there were a LOT of freshmen on that team. I lot that were starting or key contributors from day 1 on O and D if I recall correctly. And I don't recall us looking at any time as bad as we have against AU & TN ... but that season is a little fuzzy for me too.

[confucius say]

I looked for folks that jumped out as pretty darn good to me and missed a couple or three. But there were a LOT of freshmen on that team. I lot that were starting or key contributors from day 1 on O and D if I recall correctly. And I don't recall us looking at any time as bad as we have against AU & TN ... but that season is a little fuzzy for me too.

Def looked better in 09 than 19 to me.

[Bdawg]

This year's team starts alot of Sr's and Jr's. We are going to lose at least 11 starters off this team for next year. Hill is leaving...Dantzler and Gay are likely gone. This was a veteran team and it is underperforming- just like last season.

If you cant see the regression- you are blind

Sure is a lot of freshman getting pt though. Maybe those Jrs and Srs aren't as good as we hoped they would be(especially on the OL and S group). Maybe it's coaching and players. Doesn't have to be one or the other.