2016 Defense Vs 2019 Offense

[BeastMan]

In 2016 we got a new DC and we immediately saw a regression in scoring defense from 36 to 93. In total defense in 2016 we were 110. We looked unorganized, not prepared, and fans lost it calling for Sirmon?s head. As we should have.

In 2018 we got a new OC. In 2017 we were 41 in scoring offense. In year 1 with the new OC we regressed to 68 and now in year 2 we?re 93. We look unorganized, unprepared, and dysfunctional.

Why did our fanbase react as it should for Sirmon but there is still a large chunk saying JoMo needs more time and we need to support him? I never heard that in 2016 regarding Sirmon. If JoMo is your OC and for fun let?s say Dan Mullen is still the HC, every single fan we have would be calling for JoMo?s head on a platter.

[Tbonewannabe]

We also shifted from a 4-3 to a 3-4 defense. This is probably a bigger change than going from Mullen to Moorhead's offense. You have to get different players to run a 3-4 compared to what you need for a 4-3.

[Really Clark?]

We also shifted from a 4-3 to a 3-4 defense. This is probably a bigger change than going from Mullen to Moorhead's offense. You have to get different players to run a 3-4 compared to what you need for a 4-3.

And Moorehead even said his offense is in the same church as Mullen just different pews. That?s especially true in the run game.

[Tbonewannabe]

And Moorehead even said his offense is in the same church as Mullen just different pews. That?s especially true in the run game.

Which makes the reduction in offense vs an easier schedule even more perplexing. There are definite red flags for anyone without blinders on. I am not saying Joe can't turn it around but it gets less likely by the game.

[BB30]

In 2016 we got a new DC and we immediately saw a regression in scoring defense from 36 to 93. In total defense in 2016 we were 110. We looked unorganized, not prepared, and fans lost it calling for Sirmon?s head. As we should have.

In 2018 we got a new OC. In 2017 we were 41 in scoring offense. In year 1 with the new OC we regressed to 68 and now in year 2 we?re 93. We look unorganized, unprepared, and dysfunctional.

Why did our fanbase react as it should for Sirmon but there is still a large chunk saying JoMo needs more time and we need to support him? I never heard that in 2016 regarding Sirmon. If JoMo is your OC and for fun let?s say Dan Mullen is still the HC, every single fan we have would be calling for JoMo?s head on a platter.

I'm not sure I know a single state fan that isn't concerned with the regression that we have seen.

I think there are a couple of things at play.

One, that defensive unit going from 15-16 had much more talent than our offense now does.

Our offense is severely lacking talent at all of the skill positions and we have a true freshman playing QB. That in my mind makes it slightly different. We have no true difference makers on that side of the ball outside of maybe Hill. Whoever is coaching next year will struggle on O because of the lack of skill guys. Now we shouldn't be as terrible as we have been but the cupboard was bare and I believe Mullen knew that. Mullen was great at generating a run game but his O didn't need a down field threat to be successful most of the time. This offense clearly does.

That 16 team as a whole wasn't hamstrung with tutorgate and injuries like this team has been. That team wasn't forced to play a pile of true freshman.

Now the sloppiness/non-preparedness 100% on JOMO and for that state fans should be pissed. But the personnel issues shouldn't all rest on the shoulders of JOMO. This team lacks talent on O. We have less offensive talent at the skill positions than a large portion of the rest of the SEC. I'm not sure there is another group of WRs in our conference that are as bad as this group save maybe Vandy.

I think most state fans know he probably isn't the right guy and needs to be gone they just aren't freaking out about it as bad as most on this message board are. And I don't know how you think the fanbase is reacting any different towards JOMO than they were with Sirmon..Everyone on this board except for 007 has expressed their issues with JOMO just as they did with Sirmon. If you look at comments on twitter etc. you see the same comments you did about Sirmon. It isn't that different.

I haven't seen one person on the board other than 007 that has been defending him tooth and nail.

[R2Dawg]

I'm not sure I know a single state fan that isn't concerned with the regression that we have seen.

I think there are a couple of things at play.

One, that defensive unit going from 15-16 had much more talent than our offense now does.

Our offense is severely lacking talent at all of the skill positions and we have a true freshman playing QB. That in my mind makes it slightly different. We have no true difference makers on that side of the ball outside of maybe Hill. Whoever is coaching next year will struggle on O because of the lack of skill guys. Now we shouldn't be as terrible as we have been but the cupboard was bare and I believe Mullen knew that. Mullen was great at generating a run game but his O didn't need a down field threat to be successful most of the time. This offense clearly does.

That 16 team as a whole wasn't hamstrung with tutorgate and injuries like this team has been. That team wasn't forced to play a pile of true freshman.

Now the sloppiness/non-preparedness 100% on JOMO and for that state fans should be pissed. But the personnel issues shouldn't all rest on the shoulders of JOMO. This team lacks talent on O. We have less offensive talent at the skill positions than a large portion of the rest of the SEC. I'm not sure there is another group of WRs in our conference that are as bad as this group save maybe Vandy.

I think most state fans know he probably isn't the right guy and needs to be gone they just aren't freaking out about it as bad as most on this message board are. And I don't know how you think the fanbase is reacting any different towards JOMO than they were with Sirmon..Everyone on this board except for 007 has expressed their issues with JOMO just as they did with Sirmon. If you look at comments on twitter etc. you see the same comments you did about Sirmon. It isn't that different.

I haven't seen one person on the board other than 007 that has been defending him tooth and nail.

We are not as depleted on O talent as you think. By recruiting stars, we have the talent now some underperforming talent, maybe but how much is due to coaching vs actual talent. We have seen the same players digress under Moorhead so must be something else.

Also the majority of people not being that freaked out; maybe but I have not talked to one MSU fan/alumni from any circle that does not think that major changes must happen. May not be Joe gone but it needs to happen now and before next year. Difference in Sirmon obviously is a coor vs HC and he isn't in front of the mic all the time saying ridiculous stuff. Did Sirmon put out terrible product, yes but at least he wasn't telling us it is working and yelling at fans. We got Croom 2.0 going on now which is a nightmare to any MSU fan.

[Prediction? Pain.]

BB30 raised some good points, and I agree that most of the fan base -- and by "fan base" I mean us message board heroes, of course -- seem united in their frustration with Moorhead.

That said, I think that firing a 1st year coordinator is a little different than a head coach. By 2016, Mullen was firmly entrenched as our head coach (despite his perpetual job shopping and back-to-back Egg Bowl embarrassments) and had a well-established pattern of swapping DCs at the drop of a hat. Canning Sirmon for putting out the worst defense of Mullen's tenure was simple and clean -- no substantial buy-outs, no top-to-bottom restructure of the program, no (or relatively little) national scrutiny, and little effect on the offense, special teams, or recruiting infrastructure. And hell, it was nothing but business as usual for the majority of the defensive roster, most of whom had a different DC every year of their collegiate career at MSU. In other words, you could throw out the bathwater and keep the baby.

Firing the HC, on the other hand, changes everything with the program. Offense, defense, special teams, recruiting, etc. It's a much, much bigger change for the program.

That's not to say that Moorhead will deserve to be retained at season's end just because it's a bigger deal to get a whole new staff than to just get a new DC. If you need an exchange from the baby store because yours is a dud, tossing out the bathwater ain't gonna cut it. But they are at least somewhat different beasts.

On a related note, I wonder how much of a pass Shoop should get for the defense right now because of the roster hole at DT and the suspensions. There are still four SEC games left so I don't want to act like the picture's been painted yet. But if you think the offense has dropped a notch, what are we to make of Shoop's Jekyl and Hyde performance in his 1.5 years here? Last year he got us to 1st nationally in total D (both in yards per play and total yards allowed) and 2nd nationally in scoring D. So far this year we're 70th, 107th, and 76th in those categories. Maybe the stunning lack of returning production on our D this year, especially with the suspensions, was just too much to overcome and maybe a middling finish for the D is the best anyone could of done. But damn, it's tough to swallow.

ETA: Check out this chart of SEC teams I nabbed from Bill C.'s twitter feed. It shows how our offense and defense are performing among other SEC teams. Offensive numbers aren't nearly as bad as I thought they'd be but the defense's are:

https://i.postimg.cc/7LcsL49j/Screenshot-1.png

[R2Dawg]

With suspensions and having an inept O while having #1 D in country last year easily gets Shoop a pass this year. Shoop has even been mentioned as possible HC considering where we are. D also seems to be getting a little better not worse. Gay and Autry are difference makers and our DL is improving.

[BeastMan]

Good post BB30. I’m mainly talking fan reaction to statistically bad years. The argument is if your coordinator’s unit is living in the 90s, it’s a no-brainer he gotta go now. Since our OC also happens to be the HC, it changes the dynamic big-time.

And when I judge the fan base in my eyes, I sure as hell don’t mean just this board. I physically encounter more people daily than the avg person many of them state fans and there is a JoMo split but it ain’t some big majority. If anything I see the split more among age groups. Boomers and up want to wait and young folks are ready to hit reset. Of course all that is subjective but my range in gauging the base is much wider than just this board.

[Tbonewannabe]

I'm not sure I know a single state fan that isn't concerned with the regression that we have seen.

I think there are a couple of things at play.

One, that defensive unit going from 15-16 had much more talent than our offense now does.

Our offense is severely lacking talent at all of the skill positions and we have a true freshman playing QB. That in my mind makes it slightly different. We have no true difference makers on that side of the ball outside of maybe Hill. Whoever is coaching next year will struggle on O because of the lack of skill guys. Now we shouldn't be as terrible as we have been but the cupboard was bare and I believe Mullen knew that. Mullen was great at generating a run game but his O didn't need a down field threat to be successful most of the time. This offense clearly does.

That 16 team as a whole wasn't hamstrung with tutorgate and injuries like this team has been. That team wasn't forced to play a pile of true freshman.

Now the sloppiness/non-preparedness 100% on JOMO and for that state fans should be pissed. But the personnel issues shouldn't all rest on the shoulders of JOMO. This team lacks talent on O. We have less offensive talent at the skill positions than a large portion of the rest of the SEC. I'm not sure there is another group of WRs in our conference that are as bad as this group save maybe Vandy.

I think most state fans know he probably isn't the right guy and needs to be gone they just aren't freaking out about it as bad as most on this message board are. And I don't know how you think the fanbase is reacting any different towards JOMO than they were with Sirmon..Everyone on this board except for 007 has expressed their issues with JOMO just as they did with Sirmon. If you look at comments on twitter etc. you see the same comments you did about Sirmon. It isn't that different.

I haven't seen one person on the board other than 007 that has been defending him tooth and nail.

I agree that Tutorgate has affected the overall probability of wins but when you are talking about lack of offensive production, Tutorgate has a very small impact. Whop is probably the only player on offense that might have worked himself into an impact player and even that is up for debate. Lack of offense is what lost the KSU and UT games. Now the defense did have a let down at the end of both of those games that made it tough to win but the offense wasn't doing anything either.

As far as fans supporting Joe, in my group of friends there is zero people out of about 20 that want Joe back after the UT game. That game was the straw that broke the camel's back for most people. Coming off a bye week and looking that bad in every aspect of the game was just a gigantic red flag for most fans. Actually "giving max effort" in the LSU game isn't really something to be happy about. We have gone from being happy to compete with someone like Bama to actually happy we didn't just roll over and quit against LSU. Effort should be non-negotiable for a SEC team. Rarely do you see a total lack of effort like at UT except with a dead man walking like the 2008 Egg Bowl with Croom.

[Todd4State]

Good post BB30. I’m mainly talking fan reaction to statistically bad years. The argument is if your coordinator’s unit is living in the 90s, it’s a no-brainer he gotta go now. Since our OC also happens to be the HC, it changes the dynamic big-time.

And when I judge the fan base in my eyes, I sure as hell don’t mean just this board. I physically encounter more people daily than the avg person many of them state fans and there is a JoMo split but it ain’t some big majority. If anything I see the split more among age groups. Boomers and up want to wait and young folks are ready to hit reset. Of course all that is subjective but my range in gauging the base is much wider than just this board.

Here’s what I am seeing:

65% of MSU fans want him gone.

34% just feel sorry for him.

1% want to give him more time. (007 and Liverpool)

I’ve literally never seen a MSU football coach this unpopular with the fans at any time in their career except maybe Croom the night after the 2008 Egg Bowl.

[Todd4State]

I agree that Tutorgate has affected the overall probability of wins but when you are talking about lack of offensive production, Tutorgate has a very small impact. Whop is probably the only player on offense that might have worked himself into an impact player and even that is up for debate. Lack of offense is what lost the KSU and UT games. Now the defense did have a let down at the end of both of those games that made it tough to win but the offense wasn't doing anything either.

As far as fans supporting Joe, in my group of friends there is zero people out of about 20 that want Joe back after the UT game. That game was the straw that broke the camel's back for most people. Coming off a bye week and looking that bad in every aspect of the game was just a gigantic red flag for most fans. Actually "giving max effort" in the LSU game isn't really something to be happy about. We have gone from being happy to compete with someone like Bama to actually happy we didn't just roll over and quit against LSU. Effort should be non-negotiable for a SEC team. Rarely do you see a total lack of effort like at UT except with a dead man walking like the 2008 Egg Bowl with Croom.

I agree. We shouldn’t have lost to K-State but I can chalk that up to some “sh@! happens”- tutorgate, starting QB got hurt that game, and we had a lead which we lost because of a special teams breakdown.

Tennessee was inexcusable.

[Prediction? Pain.]

I’ve literally never seen a MSU football coach this unpopular with the fans at any time in their career except maybe Croom the night after the 2008 Egg Bowl.

Dude, no joke. Granted, I've lived in Tennessee or Virginia the past twenty years and am only privy to State-to-State commiseration online. But, damn, the milk soured fast this time around.


I agree. We shouldn’t have lost to K-State but I can chalk that up to some “sh@! happens”- tutorgate, starting QB got hurt that game, and we had a lead which we lost because of a special teams breakdown.

Tennessee was inexcusable.

This is where I am. Watching that Tennessee game -- and watching Wyatt's film breakdown of our QBs' and RB's gaffes afterward -- was a gut punch to me. With a solid win there, I'd even consider letting the Keystone Cops routine in Q1 at Auburn slide a bit like our other semi-yearly debacles (AU 2016 and 2017, UGA 2017, every other Egg Bowl, Bama every year but 2017, etc.). But that didn't happen. Instead, it was like the team stumbled out of the locker room from a long nap, pooed at midfield while reading the Sunday strips, and discovered evidence of a football game afoot only after glancing around for an extra roll of TP.

[Percho]

I agree that Tutorgate has affected the overall probability of wins but when you are talking about lack of offensive production, Tutorgate has a very small impact. Whop is probably the only player on offense that might have worked himself into an impact player and even that is up for debate. Lack of offense is what lost the KSU and UT games. Now the defense did have a let down at the end of both of those games that made it tough to win but the offense wasn't doing anything either.

As far as fans supporting Joe, in my group of friends there is zero people out of about 20 that want Joe back after the UT game. That game was the straw that broke the camel's back for most people. Coming off a bye week and looking that bad in every aspect of the game was just a gigantic red flag for most fans. Actually "giving max effort" in the LSU game isn't really something to be happy about. We have gone from being happy to compete with someone like Bama to actually happy we didn't just roll over and quit against LSU. Effort should be non-negotiable for a SEC team. Rarely do you see a total lack of effort like at UT except with a dead man walking like the 2008 Egg Bowl with Croom.

I believe tutorgate has been a bigger deal than we think in that: What is ones mindset if he can only play in 4 games? What is the mindset of the rest of the team as to the decision as to which games will be played in and the attitude as to whether we are throwing games into the winnable or losable cat.

[timotheus]

We thought we were getting a guy who would have made us able to compete this season with LSU and Auburn but that isn't the case. He should only have 2 losses at this point and has shown no reason for us to think otherwise. I'm afraid the schedule is even tougher next season and we'll actually have less on field talent than the unmotivated , uncoached group that we currently have.

[Tbonewannabe]

I believe tutorgate has been a bigger deal than we think in that: What is ones mindset if he can only play in 4 games? What is the mindset of the rest of the team as to the decision as to which games will be played in and the attitude as to whether we are throwing games into the winnable or losable cat.

I guess you might say that the attitude of the coach determining which games might be winnable would affect that but didn't everyone play at UT? Does it affect the offensive players when the tutorgate players aren't really on the depth chart? Whop is the only one even listed but it isn't like he is a big factor like Willie Gay or Autry.

[trojandawg]

this just makes the Tennessee game even more infuriating. KSU would probably look similar in comparison. it's also a shame Auburn blew us out.

[Homedawg]

In 2016 we got a new DC and we immediately saw a regression in scoring defense from 36 to 93. In total defense in 2016 we were 110. We looked unorganized, not prepared, and fans lost it calling for Sirmon?s head. As we should have.

In 2018 we got a new OC. In 2017 we were 41 in scoring offense. In year 1 with the new OC we regressed to 68 and now in year 2 we?re 93. We look unorganized, unprepared, and dysfunctional.

Why did our fanbase react as it should for Sirmon but there is still a large chunk saying JoMo needs more time and we need to support him? I never heard that in 2016 regarding Sirmon. If JoMo is your OC and for fun let?s say Dan Mullen is still the HC, every single fan we have would be calling for JoMo?s head on a platter.

It's simple. Rebuild-*********

[BB30]

With suspensions and having an inept O while having #1 D in country last year easily gets Shoop a pass this year. Shoop has even been mentioned as possible HC considering where we are. D also seems to be getting a little better not worse. Gay and Autry are difference makers and our DL is improving.

We had the #1 D in the country last year in large part because we had 3 first round picks one of which would have probably been a top 10 pick had he not torn his ACL along with a ton of quality complimentary players some of which are most likely NFL bound.

Stoops struggled his last couple of years at Tennessee as well. The defense has been just about as frustrating as the offense.

Sirmon could have put a top 10 D on the field last year just by showing up.

[Tbonewannabe]

It's simple. Rebuild-*********

We just need to instill a winning culture by making the team really soft and slow.****************

[dawgday166]

As I've said .. the guy only coaches when the fans are pissed at him. And he starts reselling himself to us again too with twitter videos and what not. I think he sold Cohen a bill of goods and now he's trying to sell to us once again. He's a helluva talker and speaker. It all sounds good but I just don't get a good feeling listening to him myself.

At PSU he struggled against the upper tier B1G teams (not many of them) and did that with all that NFL talent on the field. We need to take into consideration also that James Franklin is an offensive guy. How much of Joe's offense or crucial play calls during the games were influenced or directly called by Franklin himself.

If we get somewhat accepting of him again he'll go back into group hug mode with the practices is my guess. That's why he's gotta show me some major jumps in progress for me to even consider warming up to him again. Winning out may get me there ... but then I'd be very leary about having some more TN type games next year too.

[msstate7]

Simple solution... trade HC with Louisville like we did DC in 2017. I wish... satterfield is a stud