Can Anyone Accurately Explain What We're Trying to Do on Offense?

[ShotgunDawg]

I need some help here.

The effort was better Saturday, the defense is improving, & I believe Shrader is one of those rare QBs, like Dak, that can pretty much excel at whatever type of offense we want to run. Seriously, from the triple option to Mike Leach's system, I think he'd be pretty good.

However, with that being said, does anyone have any clue what we are trying to do on offense?

Seems to me that we just call plays with no real direction or identity.

If someone can accurately identify how this offense will take off without LSU/Bama type WRs, please let me know.

I'm not writing this to be negative & turn this into a "replace Joe" thread. I'm just generally confused about where we are going with this thing.

FWIW, after watching LSU's offense the other day, I didn't think schematically they were awesome. I just think LSU has really really good players & this new offense gives them a better chance of getting those awesome players in space instead of the phone booth they used to play in. LSU did the check with me stuff as well & show many of the same tempo as we do, but with significantly better players

[TrapGame]

https://i.gifer.com/8p1G.gif

[Cooterpoot]

Looks like 17 a football and grab ass. It’s exactly like C34 said. Terrible personnel management, asking kids to do things they can’t, no imagination, get fooled and whipped by SEC DCs.

[Dawgology]

Looks like 17 a football and grab ass. It’s exactly like C34 said. Terrible personnel management, asking kids to do things they can’t, no imagination, get fooled and whipped by SEC DCs.

Yes. Yes. And yes.

[TrapGame]

Bo Bounds asked today where was the innovation from the offensive guru. 94th in total offense is the complete lack of innovation.

[TheLostDawg]

I agree with above. I think a lot of it has to do with personnel. It looks a lot better when they go out there and hustle but when they don't go 100% you see the difference. Look at the Tennessee game. Tennessee might not be well coached but they have athletes. We weren't hustling, the scheme was there but backfired. Unless we can match athletic ability of our opponent and not take plays off, he's going to have to make adjustments to the routes. Seems like we yet again have a coach that can't make game time adjustments.

[TrapGame]

Remember the stories of Urban and Dan changing up the offense when they got into the SEC? The defenses in the SEC were too athletic to run some of the plays from Utah and Bowling Green. They were blowing plays up. So Mullen and Urban adapted like good coaches do.

[Irondawg]

When we hired Joe I went back and watched some Penn State games and talked to a buddy that post on here as well and mentioned how I didn't see a lot of creativity in creating favorable matchups. I saw a lot of plays where PSU just had better players that made great individual plays rather than the scheme making some things happen. I was concerned but hoped my limited technical football knowledge was impairing my judgement.

Apparently it wasn't. Like most on here I really don't like a lot of our run play designs and we don't set up the QB draws as well as Mullen did by spreading out and doing some clear out routes

[RiverCityDawg]

He says we're trying to put defensive players in conflict and take advantage of mismatches. LSU does a lot of what we want to do, they are just better organized and have much much better players.

The problem is we can't count on having better players than we have right now. Sure, we might have a little better talent in certain years, but what we have now is something that the Mississippi State coach has to find a way to win with because most years this is as good as it gets. I'm sure what he wants to do works on paper and/or with better players. But if he can't coach this caliber of player to do what he wants in order to be successful, what good does it do? Then you add bad effort 2 out of every 3 games, double digit penalties and an overall lack of toughness and here we are.

[Liverpooldawg]

I need some help here.

The effort was better Saturday, the defense is improving, & I believe Shrader is one of those rare QBs, like Dak, that can pretty much excel at whatever type of offense we want to run. Seriously, from the triple option to Mike Leach's system, I think he'd be pretty good.

However, with that being said, does anyone have any clue what we are trying to do on offense?

Seems to me that we just call plays with no real direction or identity.

If someone can accurately identify how this offense will take off without LSU/Bama type WRs, please let me know.

I'm not writing this to be negative & turn this into a "replace Joe" thread. I'm just generally confused about where we are going with this thing.

FWIW, after watching LSU's offense the other day, I didn't think schematically they were awesome. I just think LSU has really really good players & this new offense gives them a better chance of getting those awesome players in space instead of the phone booth they used to play in. LSU did the check with me stuff as well & show many of the same tempo as we do, but with significantly better players

Having those type of WRs would mean that they would be open more often, catch the ball better, and do more with it once they catch it. To me the biggest thing that is wrong with us is we lack team speed, esp on offense.

[ShotgunDawg]

Here's a research project that someone in the athletic department at MSU needs to do.

Go through the last 30 years of MSU football, look at NFL drafted MSU, & look at our best seasons. Figure out what positions we overwhelmingly usually have our best players at & go hire a coach that highlights those positions in his offense & has had success.

Build the offense around what we can consistently recruit

[Lord McBuckethead]

I watched the Cowboys last night, and the mix of plays they were running was fantastic. Like seriously, if you take a breakdown of the Rams, Cheifs, and Cowboys and just implement their plays regardless of personnel, we would be better. They all masterfully get players in space through understanding spacing and how to run routes with timing.

I think one thing we could do to simplify everything, is to have set running plays where we are going to hand the ball off and run to a specific area with set blocking schemes. This would allow our OL to get downhill knowing that a run play is happening and where it is going. Seems like the zone read slows us down and makes the line block with two possible circumstances. Making the QB have to make two people miss by themselves. And shit, throw to Hill outside for Pete's sake. If he cannot get going, let him run some routes out of the backfield with quick throws. If nothing else, it lets Shrader do a pump fake and take it himself with a couple less Lbers in the middle.

Simply put. If we cannot use tempo and our play calling to keep the defense guessing and off balance, we might as well punt on 3rd down. We cannot consistently rely on our players to out hustle and play above their ability against equal or better defenses.

[BrunswickDawg]

Our off-season workouts:

https://media.giphy.com/media/l2SpPb31rWJrGJD9u/giphy.gif

This is our offense:
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PinkNeedyHydra-small.gif


And this is our Special Teams:

https://media.giphy.com/media/BQw18R9PVibqE/giphy.gif

And our coaching staff should be doing this:

http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/RLKRLg2KTEdIQ/giphy.gif

So that we do more of this:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/db3f36e3e7889aa4a7ef6a9e30bb0618/tenor.gif?itemid=13283782

[Lord McBuckethead]

Here's a research project that someone in the athletic department at MSU needs to do.

Go through the last 30 years of MSU football, look at NFL drafted MSU, & look at our best seasons. Figure out what positions we overwhelmingly usually have our best players at & go hire a coach that highlights those positions in his offense & has had success.

Build the offense around what we can consistently recruit

30 years history has nothing to do with today's game. Unless you want to run the ball like Nebraska and Wisconsin in the early 90s.

[ShotgunDawg]

Having those type of WRs would mean that they would be open more often, catch the ball better, and do more with it once they catch it. To me the biggest thing that is wrong with us is we lack team speed, esp on offense.

our offensive speed is awful, but that makes you wonder why we don't do more things on offense, especially in the passing game, that don't require great speed.

That being said, even when we do execute, it's a 14 yard play. We create absolutely ZERO explosive plays.

[ShotgunDawg]

Why is it that in the NFL you see tons of screen passes but very rarely see them in college football?

What stops college coaches from implementing them?

[Liverpooldawg]

our offensive speed is awful, but that makes you wonder why we don't do more things on offense, especially in the passing game, that don't require great speed.

That being said, even when we do execute, it's a 14 yard play. We create absolutely ZERO explosive plays.

There really are no explosive plays. There are explosive players.

[Bothrops]

our offensive speed is awful, but that makes you wonder why we don't do more things on offense, especially in the passing game, that don't require great speed.

That being said, even when we do execute, it's a 14 yard play. We create absolutely ZERO explosive plays.

I did like Deddrick Thomas running the ball in that sweep. He's been an underutilized player for a long time.

[ShotgunDawg]

There really are no explosive plays. There are explosive players.

Agree. It's really the largest single problem that we have on offense.

I do think JoMo deserved a ton of blame, but, if we're being honest, when you don't have explosive players, you've got a thread a needle on offense to score real points.

Then Joe dials up a great call on the post route to Osiris & just like he did vs Florida last year, he drops it. Not that it is good, but should've scored 21 points vs LSU

[ShotgunDawg]

I did like Deddrick Thomas running the ball in that sweep. He's been an underutilized player for a long time.

Agree, but there is only so much you can do.

Our offensive skill players, except Shrader, are really bland & lack any explosiveness.

[Irondawg]

You don't always need explosive players although it helps. Michael Thomas is one of the best receivers in the NFL and he's hardly explosive - but dude gets open and catches the ball. I think a lot of us were hoping Whop would be that kind of physical possession receiver. We don't have guys that will run right by anybody and some of that was Mullen making sure we had WR that would block and be physical with secondary players. We don't have a lot of burners. Was hoping Zuber could be that guy or Guidry.

Spivey is supposed to be fast, but when have we tried to isolate him on a LB and run a deep pattern with him?

[Tbonewannabe]

Joe had Chase Edmonds for his last 2 years at Fordham and Saquon at Penn St. Those are two of the most explosive RBs in the NFL. I imagine Edmonds made some people look really stupid in the Patriot League. I don't think Joe is a bad offensive coach but he might be really bad adapting his offense to SEC defensive speed. We look great against SEC teams that don't have great speed like A&M, Ark, and UM last year. Also UK took a big step back this year. The problem is most SEC teams have great speed and Joe is showing that he doesn't know what to do when that happens. Mullen had his struggles just like most coaches do but he would at least try to stick with what our guys could do.

We honestly looked great against mediocre to bad defenses last year but this year we have even taken a step back against those teams. Maybe Joe can figure it out and possibly getting a new S&C team would help a lot. I just don't have any faith in Joe figuring it out. He doesn't seem to be able to adapt to anything. He can't adapt his offense to his players. He doesn't adapt the offense to what the other defense is bad at.

[Tbonewannabe]

You don't always need explosive players although it helps. Michael Thomas is one of the best receivers in the NFL and he's hardly explosive - but dude gets open and catches the ball. I think a lot of us were hoping Whop would be that kind of physical possession receiver. We don't have guys that will run right by anybody and some of that was Mullen making sure we had WR that would block and be physical with secondary players. We don't have a lot of burners. Was hoping Zuber could be that guy or Guidry.

Spivey is supposed to be fast, but when have we tried to isolate him on a LB and run a deep pattern with him?

Our TEs are supposed to be really good and we even heard of possible 2 TE sets because they need to be on the field. Just another example of Joe not adjusting to his roster. If you had Gronk and Kelce on your team then you play 2 TEs. You don't bench one so you can play Will Prosser at WR.

[Coach34]

You notice how Barkley had 54 catches for JoMo at Penn State but Hill and the backs rarely catch passes for us?

You can go 5 wide in the Big Ten and not get your QB hurt. That?s not as true in the SEC. We allowed 25 sacks last year with 2 NFL caliber guys on our OL. This year? We have given up 20 sacks already. We have to keep the RB?s in for protection.

As a poster said earlier- just like Meyer and Mullen has to learn about the SEC- so has JoVester

[Todd4State]

It goes back to our offensive line not being physical enough- which goes back to poor S&C and lack of discipline- which affects us negatively in the running games putting us behind the sticks constantly. I think there is some poor use of personnel- split Kylin and Gibson’s carries more instead of relying almost solely on Kylin. Add the in some formations with two TE’s and or 2 RB’s some to aid in blocking some and add some variety.

[Todd4State]

Agree, but there is only so much you can do.

Our offensive skill players, except Shrader, are really bland & lack any explosiveness.

And that goes back to recruiting. Also on the o-line recruiting as well. Dan literally designed us to be carried by the QB running the ball ad nauseum. Not intentionally- he just couldn’t recruit.

[Todd4State]

Why is it that in the NFL you see tons of screen passes but very rarely see them in college football?

What stops college coaches from implementing them?

Takes time for the play to develop for certain screens and on others wide receivers have to block well. That and years of college coaches running tons of them people started to defend them better so coaches have gone away from them....for now.

[bulldawg989]

Where in the hell is 00-negative to carry Moorhead's water on this issue? I gotta believe based on his extensive posting history that this is all easily explainable, that it is all by design and that if it isn't working it is Mullen's fault.

[Bothrops]

Agree, but there is only so much you can do.

Our offensive skill players, except Shrader, are really bland & lack any explosiveness.

That's why I think getting the ball to Thomas, Gibson and Witherspoon can add some much needed speed. All of those guys are great in space, Joe needs to give them more opportunities.

[CadaverDawg]

He says we're trying to put defensive players in conflict and take advantage of mismatches. LSU does a lot of what we want to do, they are just better organized and have much much better players.

The problem is we can't count on having better players than we have right now. Sure, we might have a little better talent in certain years, but what we have now is something that the Mississippi State coach has to find a way to win with because most years this is as good as it gets. I'm sure what he wants to do works on paper and/or with better players. But if he can't coach this caliber of player to do what he wants in order to be successful, what good does it do? Then you add bad effort 2 out of every 3 games, double digit penalties and an overall lack of toughness and here we are.

Perfectly said.

[Irondawg]

Of course then I think about the Chiefs and Bears. Same offensive playbook but one team has Tyreek Hill, Kelce and Mahomes (and had K. Hunt).

The other has Trubisky, Allen Robinson, and T. Cohen

One team scores a bunch of points, the other can't score at all

[CadaverDawg]

I'm not buying the "no explosive talent" BS. All off season we heard about Payton being an elite WR. All offseason we heard about Spivey and Dontae Jones and Brad Cumbest being game changers at TE. All off season we heard about Zuber and we also saw what he did at KSU. We have guys that can make big plays....we just don't have a Coach that knows how to get them the football.

Do we have Bama and LSU talent? Of course not. Never will. But the things that make coaches successful offensively is knowing your strengths and playing to them. Joe runs an offense built around taking the option every play that the defense chooses to give you. He allows the defense to dictate his game plan and every play call. The winning programs in the SEC set the tone, and don't allow you to take away their best players. They find a way to get them involved. We don't. Our coach thinks "getting Hill involved" means ramming him in to an 8 man box right up the middle and then stopping when after 10 tries it doesn't work. You have to get creative, run an option play, direct snap, screen, jet sweep, put him in the slot, run a deep whee route with him....make them defend him in order to truly take him out of the game. If all they have to do to remove your best player is stack the box, you deserve to lose.

How about putting two TE's in there and run a screen to Spivey? How bout sending a guy like Zuber that has proven able to catch tough passes on a fly pattern and throw him a 1 on 1 ball? Where's a KT package?? You're losing him anyway after this year, and his RS is safe...use him! How about a few quick screens to make the defense run side to side before slamming Kylin up the middle to soften them up?? No, you can't do things like that schematically when your game plan is to let your opponent decide your scheme that day.

[TrapGame]

I just had a fellow employee who's of the female persuasion come up to me and ask: "Does that Moorhead guy run the same damn plays over and over again?" She's a Cowboys' fan that knows virtually zero about football but she noticed Saturday afternoon we were lining up in the same formations running the same plays again and again. There ain't much game planning against that. We're making some mediocre DCs look like geniuses.

[DeputyDawg94]

Where in the hell is 00-negative to carry Moorhead's water on this issue? I gotta believe based on his extensive posting history that this is all easily explainable, that it is all by design and that if it isn't working it is Mullen's fault.
Don’t talk him up.

[MadDawg]

I just had a fellow employee who's of the female persuasion come up to me and ask: "Does that Moorhead guy run the same damn plays over and over again?" She's a Cowboys' fan that knows virtually zero about football but she noticed Saturday afternoon we were lining up in the same formations running the same plays again and again. There ain't much game planning against that. We're making some mediocre DCs look like geniuses.

Sounds like what the brain trusts said about Mullen too.

[Dental Dawg33]

I need some help here.

The effort was better Saturday, the defense is improving, & I believe Shrader is one of those rare QBs, like Dak, that can pretty much excel at whatever type of offense we want to run. Seriously, from the triple option to Mike Leach's system, I think he'd be pretty good.

However, with that being said, does anyone have any clue what we are trying to do on offense?

Seems to me that we just call plays with no real direction or identity.

If someone can accurately identify how this offense will take off without LSU/Bama type WRs, please let me know.

I'm not writing this to be negative & turn this into a "replace Joe" thread. I'm just generally confused about where we are going with this thing.

FWIW, after watching LSU's offense the other day, I didn't think schematically they were awesome. I just think LSU has really really good players & this new offense gives them a better chance of getting those awesome players in space instead of the phone booth they used to play in. LSU did the check with me stuff as well & show many of the same tempo as we do, but with significantly better players

I don?t know as much as some folks on here about football but I played and have a good grasp...what I?m seeing is line up, survey defense, oh boy the line backer creeping up showing blitz, look to sideline at JoMos blank/lost facial expession, change plays, line backer settles back and calls our bluff seconds before the snap, now holy shit the safety is scratching his crotch, timeout TIMEOUT. Discuss for 30 seconds, come out and repeat the above, then with 1 second left......wait for it....QB Sneak

[TNDawg35]

One of our main probs is we have a damn RB who thinks he is the best in the league and tries to be cute. He isn’t fast enough for break always, then he tries to stutter step everyone on the edge. That’s why all the end arounds are 1-2 yrd gains. Hell like I said Witherspoon looked better to me.

I would give Gibson the ball more. Like ALOT MORE.

I just think Joe is in over his head. If we had LSU talent, the offense would be working. But we don’t. Until Joe realizes that, we will struggle.

I think the O did look better and even liked the new ply callls, just LSU is too damn good. I think they smoke Bama this yr. our defense is getting better by the wk.

[Percho]

You notice how Barkley had 54 catches for JoMo at Penn State but Hill and the backs rarely catch passes for us?

You can go 5 wide in the Big Ten and not get your QB hurt. That?s not as true in the SEC. We allowed 25 sacks last year with 2 NFL caliber guys on our OL. This year? We have given up 20 sacks already. We have to keep the RB?s in for protection.

As a poster said earlier- just like Meyer and Mullen has to learn about the SEC- so has JoVester

I guess he does take up a little space back there, but protection?

[Percho]

I'm not buying the "no explosive talent" BS. All off season we heard about Payton being an elite WR. All offseason we heard about Spivey and Dontae Jones and Brad Cumbest being game changers at TE. All off season we heard about Zuber and we also saw what he did at KSU. We have guys that can make big plays....we just don't have a Coach that knows how to get them the football.

Do we have Bama and LSU talent? Of course not. Never will. But the things that make coaches successful offensively is knowing your strengths and playing to them. Joe runs an offense built around taking the option every play that the defense chooses to give you. He allows the defense to dictate his game plan and every play call. The winning programs in the SEC set the tone, and don't allow you to take away their best players. They find a way to get them involved. We don't. Our coach thinks "getting Hill involved" means ramming him in to an 8 man box right up the middle and then stopping when after 10 tries it doesn't work. You have to get creative, run an option play, direct snap, screen, jet sweep, put him in the slot, run a deep whee route with him....make them defend him in order to truly take him out of the game. If all they have to do to remove your best player is stack the box, you deserve to lose.

How about putting two TE's in there and run a screen to Spivey? How bout sending a guy like Zuber that has proven able to catch tough passes on a fly pattern and throw him a 1 on 1 ball? Where's a KT package?? You're losing him anyway after this year, and his RS is safe...use him! How about a few quick screens to make the defense run side to side before slamming Kylin up the middle to soften them up?? No, you can't do things like that schematically when your game plan is to let your opponent decide your scheme that day.

Good points. How does Norvell make the kid from Yazoo City, Kenneth Gainwell, look like an all american? Did we recruite him?

[PMDawg]

https://i.gifer.com/8p1G.gif

Tried to give you rep.

While I'm on it, the rep system on this site is ignorant. It's like if you've ever given someone rep, you can never give them rep again. Why? If I want to rep somebody, I should be able to. Right now, there are about 10 people that I just can't rep, and haven't been able to for weeks or even months. It's really dumb guys. tEnd of my rant.

[CadaverDawg]

Good points. How does Norvell make the kid from Yazoo City, Kenneth Gainwell, look like an all american? Did we recruite him?

There's example after example of teams with less talent than us putting up points, and lots of them. Hell, Vandy put up 30+ on LSU, and there's not a single person not named 007 that would say Vandy has more talent than us.

[Commercecomet24]

I'm not buying the "no explosive talent" BS. All off season we heard about Payton being an elite WR. All offseason we heard about Spivey and Dontae Jones and Brad Cumbest being game changers at TE. All off season we heard about Zuber and we also saw what he did at KSU. We have guys that can make big plays....we just don't have a Coach that knows how to get them the football.

Do we have Bama and LSU talent? Of course not. Never will. But the things that make coaches successful offensively is knowing your strengths and playing to them. Joe runs an offense built around taking the option every play that the defense chooses to give you. He allows the defense to dictate his game plan and every play call. The winning programs in the SEC set the tone, and don't allow you to take away their best players. They find a way to get them involved. We don't. Our coach thinks "getting Hill involved" means ramming him in to an 8 man box right up the middle and then stopping when after 10 tries it doesn't work. You have to get creative, run an option play, direct snap, screen, jet sweep, put him in the slot, run a deep whee route with him....make them defend him in order to truly take him out of the game. If all they have to do to remove your best player is stack the box, you deserve to lose.

How about putting two TE's in there and run a screen to Spivey? How bout sending a guy like Zuber that has proven able to catch tough passes on a fly pattern and throw him a 1 on 1 ball? Where's a KT package?? You're losing him anyway after this year, and his RS is safe...use him! How about a few quick screens to make the defense run side to side before slamming Kylin up the middle to soften them up?? No, you can't do things like that schematically when your game plan is to let your opponent decide your scheme that day.

I agree with this. We have enough fast players to make plays we just ain't getting them the ball. Heck Osiris consistently beats guys deep, he did saturday but the ball was just a hair underthrown. Zuber has very good speed, Guidry has good speed(can't catch much though), Thomas has good speed, Farrod is fast for a TE, I know Spivey can run, Gibson has good speed and so does Witherspoon. The point is we have guys that can make plays with their feet ol joe just ain't getting them the ball.

[trojandawg]

here's the thing. if you don't have the very talented players you don't put them in that position to fail. you focus on the parts you do well and try to emphasize them while systematically trying to improve the parts you aren't good at. you don't put the hands of the game in a average to below average wide receivers corps. you don't base your offense around that. with this roster you create your offense around spreading the field horizontally and running misdirections, sweeps, to open up running lanes, and when you get the defense to commit to the run you hit play action or you hit quick hit throws to the outside. quit all this crap of 20 plus yard plays unless the other team just absolutely sucks at defense. then we have time for the play to develop. most of moorhead's plays take way too long to develop in this league. just way too long especially however they are teaching our linemen to block. we hesitate on our blocks and our runs. it's like they don't know who to block and where the ball is going presnap. we confuse ourselves. it's like the running backs don't know where it's supposed to go and neither do the lineman leading to hesitation our us getting stuff on short yardage plays.

[RougeDawg]

I just had a fellow employee who's of the female persuasion come up to me and ask: "Does that Moorhead guy run the same damn plays over and over again?" She's a Cowboys' fan that knows virtually zero about football but she noticed Saturday afternoon we were lining up in the same formations running the same plays again and again. There ain't much game planning against that. We're making some mediocre DCs look like geniuses.

Because the defenses show initial looks that they know will force certain audibles. Then we check to sideline, wait 15 more seconds and change into the play the defense dictated that we would change into. Opposing defensive e coordinators have been openly saying this for 2 seasons now. We may not beat Abilene Christian if they follow suit and do the same thing, because SloMo clearly has not figured it out.

[timotheus]

Joe doesn't pay much attention to film on the upcoming opponent. He still thinks the D coordinators don't watch film of his O. RougeDawg has it figured out.

[dawgday166]

That's why I think getting the ball to Thomas, Gibson and Witherspoon can add some much needed speed. All of those guys are great in space, Joe needs to give them more opportunities.

Thomas and Witherspoon have potential in space to a degree. Gibson more or a power between the tackles runner that'll get you the tougher yds.

[dawgday166]

I'm kinda thinking he's just trying to give the ball back to other team as quickly as possible. Since we can't do that with explosive plays we do it with 3 and outs.