OT Starkville Schools - Lack of class space

[Lord McBuckethead]

Alright, so how is it that they do not have enough teachers to teach Algebra II at Starkville High School this year? How does that happen? There are kids that will have to sit out of math classes for a semester.

Wow. Surely in a university town they can find someone to teach Algebra II right?

[MetEdDawg]

Alright, so how is it that they do not have enough teachers to teach Algebra II at Starkville High School this year? How does that happen? There are kids that will have to sit out of math classes for a semester.

Wow. Surely in a university town they can find someone to teach Algebra II right?

I'm stunned they can't set up a distance learning thing through the university to cover that, although I'm sure they would have to get multiple professors to do that and get state approval to make that happen.

Welcome to the new world of public education math and science. Not enough bodies going into teaching to overcome the losses in those fields due to retirement and people just leaving the profession.

[BeardoMSU]

I'm stunned they can't set up a distance learning thing through the university to cover that, although I'm sure they would have to get multiple professors to do that and get state approval to make that happen.

Welcome to the new world of public education math and science. Not enough bodies going into teaching to overcome the losses in those fields due to retirement and people just leaving the profession.

This would be an easy solution, but the classes could actually be taught by a few grad-students as part of a dept. assistantship, who would then benefit from not only the teaching experience, but obviously the (however meager) paycheck.

Also having experience teaching in low-income areas looks great on a CV; if teaching is your thing....

[MetEdDawg]

This would be an easy solution, but the classes could actually be taught by a few grad-students as part of a dept. assistantship, who would then benefit from not only the teaching experience, but obviously the (however meager) paycheck.

Also having experience teaching in low-income areas looks great on a CV; if teaching is your thing....

Problem is the state compliance. That would take a while and probably couldn't be done before school starts. It's definitely something they could look at but the paperwork that has to be done and the amount of leg work the state department would have to do probably couldn't be completed by the time school starts.

Distance learning is becoming a huge thing in public education along with online learning through certain state sponsored education companies that have the curriculum and courses of classes set to state specifications. We had that at the high school I taught at the past 5 years. That's always an option too and could potentially happen much more quickly if something like that is already set up at the school for other courses.

[Lord McBuckethead]

I mean, I was downright floored today when I heard one of my employees sons is having to take a semester off of math. Like, damn people. Collect taxes, hire teachers, etc.. Stop cutting taxes. Money needs to be raised, administrators need to be minimized, teachers need to be hired, and kids need to be learning at a faster rate.

This kid has never made a B in his life, and he is limited by some inability to hire someone to teach a class as easy as Algebra II? I mean with a small brush up course, I am sure almost this entire message board could come in and teach it.

[dawgs]

I'm stunned they can't set up a distance learning thing through the university to cover that, although I'm sure they would have to get multiple professors to do that and get state approval to make that happen.

Welcome to the new world of public education math and science. Not enough bodies going into teaching to overcome the losses in those fields due to retirement and people just leaving the profession.

It's almost like decades of cutting education funding, cutting teacher pay and benefits, and repeating the claim that "people who can't do teach" has a cumulative effect over time and results in shit like this. If only we could've predicted that actions have results that aren't immediately apparent should still be carefully considered for their long term impact.

[Liverpooldawg]

I mean, I was downright floored today when I heard one of my employees sons is having to take a semester off of math. Like, damn people. Collect taxes, hire teachers, etc.. Stop cutting taxes. Money needs to be raised, administrators need to be minimized, teachers need to be hired, and kids need to be learning at a faster rate.

This kid has never made a B in his life, and he is limited by some inability to hire someone to teach a class as easy as Algebra II? I mean with a small brush up course, I am sure almost this entire message board could come in and teach it.

It's not that simple. There have to be teachers to hire. It happens all over the state.

[MetEdDawg]

It's not that simple. There have to be teachers to hire. It happens all over the state.

This. And the unfortunate part is the MS and AL don't have a lot of desirable places to live compared to other states. The teaching profession has made a radical shift over the last decade or so. Tons of folks with higher ed degrees for salary bumps and people coming in for second careers. They are able to live a little better, especially if they have a spouse with a decent job.

So rural places are struggling to get teachers because they want to live a little better, cut down commute, and spend more time with family. There's a teacher shortage across the country, but MS and AL are currently the ones being hit the hardest.

[AROB44]

I may be wrong, but I have been under the impression that someone with a degree in mathematics cannot teach since they don't have the necessary education courses. If this is true, then it is absolutely absurd.

[MetEdDawg]

I may be wrong, but I have been under the impression that someone with a degree in mathematics cannot teach since they don't have the necessary education courses. If this is true, then it is absolutely absurd.

They have to apply for an emergency certification that lasts a year. In Alabama a teacher has 3 years to complete the necessary coursework to become a certified teacher or they can no longer teach.

[AROB44]

They have to apply for an emergency certification that lasts a year. In Alabama a teacher has 3 years to complete the necessary coursework to become a certified teacher or they can no longer teach.


And that is also absurd. Thanks teacher unions.

[MetEdDawg]

And that is also absurd. Thanks teacher unions.

Not really. It's exceedingly difficult to teach children. Like really difficult. That's why people don't want to teach. Having content knowledge does not equate to necessarily being successful in the classroom. Sure some engineers in certain fields probably understands the principles of physics well enough to teach. But do you know how to instruct children? Do you know how to differentiate between different learning styles? Do you know how to incorporate all of the provisions of a child's 504 or IEP? Parent communication? Class recommendations and initiating administration intervention?

Every job has qualifications. It makes sense that a teacher should have to understand the principles of the profession. They should have to have certification to teach and it demeans the profession every time we have to circumvent that just to fill classrooms.

[RocketDawg]

I may be wrong, but I have been under the impression that someone with a degree in mathematics cannot teach since they don't have the necessary education courses. If this is true, then it is absolutely absurd.

I believe that is true. They can teach college without the education courses, but not K-12.

[SailingDawg]

It's almost like decades of cutting education funding, cutting teacher pay and benefits, and repeating the claim that "people who can't do teach" has a cumulative effect over time and results in shit like this. If only we could've predicted that actions have results that aren't immediately apparent should still be carefully considered for their long term impact.

Well stated.

[SailingDawg]

And that is also absurd. Thanks teacher unions.

There are no teacher unions in Mississippi.

[BeardoMSU]

There are no teacher unions in Mississippi.

Oops**

https://media0.giphy.com/media/xTiTnlVOJVXE3blRoQ/giphy.gif

[Lord McBuckethead]

Not really. It's exceedingly difficult to teach children. Like really difficult. That's why people don't want to teach. Having content knowledge does not equate to necessarily being successful in the classroom. Sure some engineers in certain fields probably understands the principles of physics well enough to teach. But do you know how to instruct children? Do you know how to differentiate between different learning styles? Do you know how to incorporate all of the provisions of a child's 504 or IEP? Parent communication? Class recommendations and initiating administration intervention?

Every job has qualifications. It makes sense that a teacher should have to understand the principles of the profession. They should have to have certification to teach and it demeans the profession every time we have to circumvent that just to fill classrooms.

Do teachers year 1? After a few years, they get into their groove, but straight out of school its not like they are all good at teaching young people. I mean this is high school, not K-6 or something.

[Lord McBuckethead]

There are no teacher unions in Mississippi.

Thats true, but there are other places. Those places implement certification requirements. States like MS follow suit.

[dawgs]

We got non-teachers telling teachers what kinda understanding they need to be effective teachers instead of actually listening to teachers who understand what it takes to succeed as a teacher but are hamstrung by the decisions of non-teachers and badmouthed by non-teachers who think they know better anyway despite having no teaching experience.

[dawgs]

Thats true, but there are other places. Those places implement certification requirements. States like MS follow suit.


I think Mississippi has lots of learn when it comes to education, so following the lead of more successful education systems is probably a good thing.

[MetEdDawg]

Do teachers year 1? After a few years, they get into their groove, but straight out of school its not like they are all good at teaching young people. I mean this is high school, not K-6 or something.

No one is good teaching year 1. But those that come out of degree programs have at least been exposed to the things I mentioned and statistically stay in the profession at a higher % than those that come in on emergency certifications. But everyone should have some classwork in things like classroom management, special education law (trust me you don't want to walk into a classroom without this unless you want to risk losing everything you own) and a myriad of other things.

My mentee last year had a degree in the field he taught in and zero background in education. No classes or anything. Kids ran rough shot over him (upper level high school science). The kids that wanted to learn did. The ones who sort of did or didn't never learned anything. Anyone can teach the kids that want to learn. You get schooling in education to learn how to manage the ones that don't.

It's freaking hard to teach. I encourage anyone on here to take a few days per year and visit your child's school and stay all day. Try for multiple days in a row if you can to get some continuity day to day. Don't go in your kids classroom all day either. Move around to different subjects and levels. There's a reason they make degrees for this stuff. Most everyone thinks they can teach until that classroom door closes and no one runs in to save you every time you have a kid that doesn't feel like doing anything. Welcome to every teacher every class every day.

50% of the teaching field is leaving between years 0-5. 50%. Tons of people are entering the field thinking they can do it, either straight out of college or second career, and they simply can't handle the demands of the classroom. I'm going on year 7 and I'm there to stay. But the demands, especially at the high school level are insane. K-6 is easy because they are lacking one big component. Athletics. That changes the game completely.

[MetEdDawg]

We got non-teachers telling teachers what kinda understanding they need to be effective teachers instead of actually listening to teachers who understand what it takes to succeed as a teacher but are hamstrung by the decisions of non-teachers and badmouthed by non-teachers who think they know better anyway despite having no teaching experience.


Preach

[Lord McBuckethead]

No one is good teaching year 1. But those that come out of degree programs have at least been exposed to the things I mentioned and statistically stay in the profession at a higher % than those that come in on emergency certifications. But everyone should have some classwork in things like classroom management, special education law (trust me you don't want to walk into a classroom without this unless you want to risk losing everything you own) and a myriad of other things.

My mentee last year had a degree in the field he taught in and zero background in education. No classes or anything. Kids ran rough shot over him (upper level high school science). The kids that wanted to learn did. The ones who sort of did or didn't never learned anything. Anyone can teach the kids that want to learn. You get schooling in education to learn how to manage the ones that don't.

It's freaking hard to teach. I encourage anyone on here to take a few days per year and visit your child's school and stay all day. Try for multiple days in a row if you can to get some continuity day to day. Don't go in your kids classroom all day either. Move around to different subjects and levels. There's a reason they make degrees for this stuff. Most everyone thinks they can teach until that classroom door closes and no one runs in to save you every time you have a kid that doesn't feel like doing anything. Welcome to every teacher every class every day.

50% of the teaching field is leaving between years 0-5. 50%. Tons of people are entering the field thinking they can do it, either straight out of college or second career, and they simply can't handle the demands of the classroom. I'm going on year 7 and I'm there to stay. But the demands, especially at the high school level are insane. K-6 is easy because they are lacking one big component. Athletics. That changes the game completely.

Good comments. But surely they can do an online class. My school, way back in 2001 had Calculus class online. How come they do not have this option? Seems pretty damn easy and inexpensive.

[MetEdDawg]

Good comments. But surely they can do an online class. My school, way back in 2001 had Calculus class online. How come they do not have this option? Seems pretty damn easy and inexpensive.

Now this I would agree with. However, if they had a teacher decide to quit or leave a couple weeks before school starts that puts them in a massive bind. You can't just switch everything over to online and it happen instantly. Like I said, the state department has to sign off on online class offerings and you have to have someone available to proctor the class still.

If they knew months ago this might be an issue they would have had time to apply for something like that. If the person quit within the last week or so that was supposed to teach it, again that's a major issue to find someone that late in the game. I don't know their specific situation, but according to the board minutes (which are easily found online for those interested in how your school hires and fired), a math teacher at the high school retired effective end of June at the high school. Might have put them in a bind where they didn't have another candidate to pull from their pool of interviewees.

I agree that there should be someone they could go to to get it fixed or change the status of that class back to active with something online. That's a state mandated class in Alabama so it's pretty important kids get that.

[Dawg2003]

I got an emergency certificate to teach about 10 years ago. I lasted half a semester in the classroom before I quit. I went on to another profession that was much better for me, but teaching was extremely difficult. I would work on all my off days too. I got punched by a kid, called all sorts of names, had zero support from administration. I had an MA in a subject area and didn't have a lot of direction on what to do with it. I thought teaching might be the answer. I have never been so lost and miserable as that half semester.

I applaud anyone that can teach in the public school system. I actually did have teaching experience as an adjunct at a community college before teaching in the public schools, so I wasn't completely green. But teaching at a community college and in the public schools is a night and day difference.

[StarkvilleGuru]

As a product of Starkville High, I must say that I'm impressed in the direction that it is headed. The school was an absolute joke when I was there. We had semester long book projects that I wouldn't do and still waltz out with an A. Having an old classmate of mine who teaches there now, their take is that the school is still underfunded. All of the political focus is currently on the individual teacher's pay instead of providing resources for the schools.

I would also be in favor of fresh State grads having an opportunity to teach at Starkville School District in their first few years out, and in return, they are able to receive payback on some of their student loans. Not many young professionals want to stay and hang around Starkville after graduation. This might be able to help switch that trend up.

[gravedigger]

Alright, so how is it that they do not have enough teachers to teach Algebra II at Starkville High School this year? How does that happen? There are kids that will have to sit out of math classes for a semester.

Wow. Surely in a university town they can find someone to teach Algebra II right?

Just a guess, but the Governor?s attempts to incentivize people to stay and teach was probably too little too late. This issue is the real black eye of Mississippi and will remain one.

Teachers, police, firemen. We need to pay them like we expect them to be the best.

Sorry for the rant. I was raised by a long line of Mississippi educators.

[gravedigger]

We got non-teachers telling teachers what kinda understanding they need to be effective teachers instead of actually listening to teachers who understand what it takes to succeed as a teacher but are hamstrung by the decisions of non-teachers and badmouthed by non-teachers who think they know better anyway despite having no teaching experience.

Well stated. I would be willing to teach at SHS myself, but my mom, a retired SHS teacher showed me it isn?t about a love of subject matter. It?s about a love of watching kids learn. I?d need training.

Also, what is most frustrating is the national issue of school violence. Ever since Jonesboro, Paducah, Pearl and Columbine, schools have become fortresses and it has put a strain on teachers and the incentive to become one.

[BrunswickDawg]

Now this I would agree with. However, if they had a teacher decide to quit or leave a couple weeks before school starts that puts them in a massive bind. You can't just switch everything over to online and it happen instantly. Like I said, the state department has to sign off on online class offerings and you have to have someone available to proctor the class still.

If they knew months ago this might be an issue they would have had time to apply for something like that. If the person quit within the last week or so that was supposed to teach it, again that's a major issue to find someone that late in the game. I don't know their specific situation, but according to the board minutes (which are easily found online for those interested in how your school hires and fired), a math teacher at the high school retired effective end of June at the high school. Might have put them in a bind where they didn't have another candidate to pull from their pool of interviewees.

I agree that there should be someone they could go to to get it fixed or change the status of that class back to active with something online. That's a state mandated class in Alabama so it's pretty important kids get that.

I wouldn't doubt that they had someone lined up and that person bailed for better paying position. We just had a local high school band director bail for more money - the week before band camp started. Stuff happens.

[MedDawg]

Alright, so how is it that they do not have enough teachers to teach Algebra II at Starkville High School this year? How does that happen? There are kids that will have to sit out of math classes for a semester.

Wow. Surely in a university town they can find someone to teach Algebra II right?

A long time ago I was a rising junior in HS and signed up for Senior Math (I was a year ahead due to taking Algebra I in 8th grade in NY), but Cleveland High School didn't have enough students to sign up for Senior Math and they cancelled it. So they arranged for me to take College Algebra and then College Trigonometry at the local university (Delta State). Then Calculus I at DSU for my first semester of my HS senior year. That all worked out really well--I got both HS credit for graduation and regular college credit.

Don't know if Algebra II is a HS junior or senior course, but there may be some equivalent at MSU.

[Johnson85]

Just a guess, but the Governor?s attempts to incentivize people to stay and teach was probably too little too late. This issue is the real black eye of Mississippi and will remain one.

Teachers, police, firemen. We need to pay them like we expect them to be the best.

Sorry for the rant. I was raised by a long line of Mississippi educators.

At least for teachers, that is probably politically going to be impossible. It would probably involve lowering pay for starting teachers and might even involve lowering the median pay for teachers. You are going to have people fighting tooth and nail to keep everybody on the same pay scale and you'll also have people fighting over how to identify high performers and/or who gets to do so. And then assuming you end up with local control over allocating performance pay, a lot of the worst school districts will probably allocate pay based off politics and favoritism rather than performance, so it will always be under political attack.

[MadDawg]

Well stated.

If it were only true, of course.

[BrunswickDawg]

At least for teachers, that is probably politically going to be impossible. It would probably involve lowering pay for starting teachers and might even involve lowering the median pay for teachers. You are going to have people fighting tooth and nail to keep everybody on the same pay scale and you'll also have people fighting over how to identify high performers and/or who gets to do so. And then assuming you end up with local control over allocating performance pay, a lot of the worst school districts will probably allocate pay based off politics and favoritism rather than performance, so it will always be under political attack.

He is not talking about performance pay. He is saying that those 3 fields (police, fire and teachers) are 3 of the most important in our country and we generally pay them the worst. That pay is one of the drivers of having poorly performing teachers and corrupt officers. And yet, we expect them to save our lives and raise our kids while also being highly trained experts. If we want our teachers and first-responders to be of as high quality as we say, then it is all about the money.

Performance pay in education is a terrible idea . The best teachers I have ever known are the ones in under-performing schools. They can make huge gains educationally with kids that never touch the arbitrary metrics used for performance pay and never be rewarded. Meanwhile, you could have a terrible teacher lucky enough to be teaching high performing kids get rewarded for doing squat.

It all comes down to this - you get what you pay for.

[Johnson85]

He is not talking about performance pay. He is saying that those 3 fields (police, fire and teachers) are 3 of the most important in our country and we generally pay them the worst. That pay is one of the drivers of having poorly performing teachers and corrupt officers. And yet, we expect them to save our lives and raise our kids while also being highly trained experts. If we want our teachers and first-responders to be of as high quality as we say, then it is all about the money.

This is just false with respect to teachers. Mississippi is not known for paying teachers great, and a starting teacher with a four year degree makes roughly 85% of the median household income for the state, assuming they get no supplement from their district. Two married teachers starting out with the minimal levels of qualification would be at the 72nd percentile for household income for the state. There are lots of people with 4 year degrees that don't start out at that level and don't get scheduled raises. Sure, a lot of people end up making much more with just a 4 year degree, but a lot of people never catch up to teachers while working longer hours.

If you don't want to allow teachers to be paid different levels for different qualities of teaching, and you also don't want to make it much harder to become a teacher, there's not much of a chance that you're going to be able to move the needle much on teacher pay.




Performance pay in education is a terrible idea . The best teachers I have ever known are the ones in under-performing schools. They can make huge gains educationally with kids that never touch the arbitrary metrics used for performance pay and never be rewarded. Meanwhile, you could have a terrible teacher lucky enough to be teaching high performing kids get rewarded for doing squat. You are assuming paying for good teachers requires tying performance pay to arbitrary metrics (I'm assuming you are thinking standardized test results here), and that's just not the case. There was a small group of particularly good teachers in my high school that probably made 20-25% more than the average teacher there. They didn't get their pay based on any metrics other than the principle and/or headmaster was convinced they were good teachers.



It all comes down to this - you get what you pay for. It's not just what you pay, it's how you pay. Just looking at the financial aspects, our teacher pay is structured to attract people who value (1) the certainty of a decently high minimum pay over the potential of much higher pay or lower pay, (2) job security, (3) higher starting pay versus higher eventual ceiling, (4) more time off from work, etc. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but it does mean that people that want the potential to make really good money as opposed to the certainty of making pretty decent money are going to be turned off from teaching unless they really feel called to do it.

[Percho]

I mean, I was downright floored today when I heard one of my employees sons is having to take a semester off of math. Like, damn people. Collect taxes, hire teachers, etc.. Stop cutting taxes. Money needs to be raised, administrators need to be minimized, teachers need to be hired, and kids need to be learning at a faster rate.

This kid has never made a B in his life, and he is limited by some inability to hire someone to teach a class as easy as Algebra II? I mean with a small brush up course, I am sure almost this entire message board could come in and teach it.


Thanks for key word, "almost".

[dawgs]

How do you judge which teachers are higher quality? A teacher with worse students won't have as high of test scores. A teacher teaching social studies might appear to be teaching the students better than a teacher teaching physics because the subject matter is easier for the average student to comprehend the basics. If you based performance on standardized testing, then you have teachers who teach for the test, not teaching for actual understanding. It's just damn near impossible to do a true objective evaluation of each teacher's "quality". It's easy to find some really bad apples, but the vast majority of teachers are in a middle area where any measured results from their teaching is going to be highly dependent on factors outside their control (class sizes, student backgrounds, subject matter, etc).

[Johnson85]

How do you judge which teachers are higher quality? A teacher with worse students won't have as high of test scores. A teacher teaching social studies might appear to be teaching the students better than a teacher teaching physics because the subject matter is easier for the average student to comprehend the basics. If you based performance on standardized testing, then you have teachers who teach for the test, not teaching for actual understanding. It's just damn near impossible to do a true objective evaluation of each teacher's "quality". It's easy to find some really bad apples, but the vast majority of teachers are in a middle area where any measured results from their teaching is going to be highly dependent on factors outside their control (class sizes, student backgrounds, subject matter, etc).

You can make similar arguments for most jobs, yet they still give raises to/promote some people and not others. It would be much easier to get good results if there were more school choice.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Good discussion everyone. Starkville school district is definately moving in the right direction. Light years better than 8-10 years ago. It shocked me someone in high school didn't have a spot in a math class they wanted to take. The governor debate touched on teachers wages. We are behind our neighboring states and I believe the policy should be nearest state starting plus 10%. We have to keep teachers in this state.

Also, school districts need some legislation that allows them to get some teeth back for punishments.

[MadDawg]

How do you judge which teachers are higher quality? A teacher with worse students won't have as high of test scores. A teacher teaching social studies might appear to be teaching the students better than a teacher teaching physics because the subject matter is easier for the average student to comprehend the basics. If you based performance on standardized testing, then you have teachers who teach for the test, not teaching for actual understanding. It's just damn near impossible to do a true objective evaluation of each teacher's "quality". It's easy to find some really bad apples, but the vast majority of teachers are in a middle area where any measured results from their teaching is going to be highly dependent on factors outside their control (class sizes, student backgrounds, subject matter, etc).

Absolutely true. And also factor in that everybody has a different definition of success and failure, some of which are not remotely founded in reality.

[MetEdDawg]

Good discussion everyone. Starkville school district is definately moving in the right direction. Light years better than 8-10 years ago. It shocked me someone in high school didn't have a spot in a math class they wanted to take. The governor debate touched on teachers wages. We are behind our neighboring states and I believe the policy should be nearest state starting plus 10%. We have to keep teachers in this state.

Also, school districts need some legislation that allows them to get some teeth back for punishments.

Someone mentioned it earlier, but I'll say this. While one of the biggest teacher unions in AL is very politically driven, they sure as hell look out for teachers. Our medical insurance broke laws passing a premium increase that coincided with a state pay increase. They broke laws meeting to increase the premium. Union beat them down and not only am I getting a refund of the amount, but I'm getting interest on that as well. Biggest teacher union in the state was the plaintiff in that case.

They also have been pushing exceedingly hard for a teacher pay raise. Boom. 4% raise this year. Someone has to fight for teachers in MS and they could take a lot of pointers from AEA here in Alabama.

Legislators have very little vested interest in education unless someone forces them to bring it to the forefront. Until that happens they are just fine with things the way they are. I'm a republican and I'm 100% for my local property taxes to increase to fund education. Think about what $10 per household per month would do if it were all funneled into education. Youngave to willing to sacrifice a little to get better education today. And you have to be willing to hold city leaders to task when they don't allocate funds properly or don't do enough to pay teachers. Each school district sets the amount, not the state.

Too many people don't go to school board meetings and ask questions. Local school boards are plenty capable of increasing salaries to be more attractive. But no one asks why. If you want to know the answers to these questions, go to a school board meeting. They are open to the public and free. Not sure why more community members don't go. After all, they are the ones that make the decisions on how your children get educated and by whom. My ass would be taking a school board to task if they didn't have enough math teachers. I would want to know why.

[shoeless joe]

Some of y?all should take a look at the new teacher grading rubric used by administrators to grade teachers...you wouldn?t get halfway thru it before you quit reading it and wonder what the hell much of that has to do with teaching. And there in lies your problem in public education, or at least one of them.

I?ll be starting my 12tg yr in the classroom next week...all but two at my current job at a school very comparable and similar to Starkville. And these are some things I have personally witnessed/experienced numerous times. Young teachers hafta get in and learn their style of teaching, college doesn?t prepare you for that. There is a lot of stress involved in that. Add on top of that the job pressure put on them because they could be let go for nothing more than a teacher cut based on budgets. It?s stressful and they don?t want to deal with it. Principals don?t have the option of allowing too much learning on the job because their heads are on the line every state test and school report card. While the reality of those is much more based on socio economics than it is on teacher/administrator performance.

Put all that together with kids and parents who have no respect for anything or any one combined with the wide range of teacher effectiveness and we are where we are. What?s the fix?? I don?t know but some common sense rooted in reality would be a start...and I?m not talkin about at the district level.

All that said...I enjoy my job and specifically enjoy teaching in my current district. But make no mistake, it takes a good long while of being around and seeing the ins and outs to realize the level of enjoyment that I have reached. Some really good teachers have quit or been run off before realizing it and it has hurt our school 10 fold.

[timotheus]

will shoeless joe run for office when he retires? I say so

[HeCannotGo]

This thread is very interesting, especially the input from veteran teachers. I'm not a teacher but have several close family members who are. Me, my wife and my kids are all products of public schools. With that bit of background, here are my big-picture thoughts on public education:

1. Public schools are not run for the benefit of the students. Nor are they run for the benefit of the parents or the teachers. Instead, they are operated for the benefit of the administrators, bureaucrats and other paper-pushers who do not add value to the classroom experience. In our area (Atlanta suburbs), the school districts employ at least one non-teacher for every classroom teacher. This is insane.

2. Public education spending per student has generally increased over the years (even on an inflation-adjusted basis), while test scores have remained generally flat. More money is not leading to a better product, leading me to conclude that existing spending should be better allocated in order to produce better results. I'm sure a particular district or particular school could show that this is not the case for them, but this is the national trend. Also, good news for Mississippians: after adjusting for cost of living, Mississippi's public school spending per student is pretty decent (higher than Florida, Texas, Georgia and California). See here: https://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/quality-counts-2018-state-finance/map-per-pupil-spending-state-by-state.html.

3. Based on points one and two above, I think we could easily eliminate a large number of non-teaching positions and use the savings to increase teacher pay substantially. This would be budget neutral: no tax increases needed.

4. My impression is that we don't have a shortage of teachers overall, but we do have a shortage of GOOD teachers. There is a solid minority of teachers who are hardworking, dedicated and willing to go above and beyond to help their students learn. From what I've seen, about 30-40% of public school teachers fall into this category. The others, to one degree or another, are just collecting a paycheck and counting down the days until spring break or summer vacation. They are not bad people. In fact, they are simply responding to the incentives presented to them: do just enough to get hired again next year but no more. We don't pay teachers for extra effort, and thus we often don't get extra effort.

5. Talent goes where the money is. If we want more good teachers and to motivate the below-average teachers to get better, we need performance pay. Several in this thread seem horrified at the idea, seemingly because whatever metrics are used wouldn't be perfectly fair to all teachers all the time. But principals know who the good teachers are, and superintendents know who the good principals are. In the private sector, management establishes salaries that generally match job performance. An employee might get shortchanged here and there, but over time he's paid what he's worth. We need something like this in the education world. There's no reason why a superstar teacher with five years of experience should make less money than an average or below-average teacher with ten years in the system.

6. We need to provide teachers with more and better tools for classroom discipline. The kids who don't care about learning can misbehave with impunity and make life miserable for both teachers and other students. With our litigious society and our general attitude that every kid is entitled to a free public education no matter how poorly he behaves, I don't have any ready answers here. Perhaps our veteran teachers could weigh in here.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Good conversation. Good public school education starts and ends with parents involvenent.

In class discipline starts at home. In class performance is reached by high at home expectations. Teachers are an authority. Kids that grew up in the 80s forgot this, and now they have not taught their kids to have the respect for the teachers/police/etc authority.

From my experience, kids who parents help with homework, set expectations, and make sure their kids know who the authority is at school those kids get a huge head start from day 1 and hold that throughout their lives.

Of the largest issues with public school today, the vast percentage can be reduced down to poor engagement at home. Not the teachers. Not the adminstrations. Not the funding amount. Not the facility. Truth is, parents are not teaching their kids to act right, be responsible, and teaching an eagerness to learn. All of which have to be fostered throughout their first years, prior to school.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Mississippi has highest paid administrators in the US and the lowest paid Teachers... The state Superintendent is one the highest paid in the US....consolidate school districts and use that money in the classroom... Houston Texas Independent School District has 220,000 Students, 12,000 teachers with a total staff of 30,000 and one Superintendent. Tippah County Mississippi has 2 school districts...

[IMissJack]

Why not online teachers (classes) to help with this lack of available teachers?

[timotheus]

Mississippi has highest paid administrators in the US and the lowest paid Teachers... The state Superintendent is one the highest paid in the US....consolidate school districts and use that money in the classroom... Houston Texas Independent School District has 220,000 Students, 12,000 teachers with a total staff of 30,000 and one Superintendent. Tippah County Mississippi has 2 school districts...

Should a superintendent of a 4A school be paid more than the superintendent at a 5A or a 6A school? Research this.........

[dawgs]

Good conversation. Good public school education starts and ends with parents involvenent.

In class discipline starts at home. In class performance is reached by high at home expectations. Teachers are an authority. Kids that grew up in the 80s forgot this, and now they have not taught their kids to have the respect for the teachers/police/etc authority.

From my experience, kids who parents help with homework, set expectations, and make sure their kids know who the authority is at school those kids get a huge head start from day 1 and hold that throughout their lives.

Of the largest issues with public school today, the vast percentage can be reduced down to poor engagement at home. Not the teachers. Not the adminstrations. Not the funding amount. Not the facility. Truth is, parents are not teaching their kids to act right, be responsible, and teaching an eagerness to learn. All of which have to be fostered throughout their first years, prior to school.

The problem is that far too many parents are running between jobs or running themselves ragged on 1 job and simply don't have the time or energy to help with homework and ensure their kids are on top of things. As cost of living skyrockets, parents working low paid jobs need several to make ends meet and the parents with higher paid jobs are expected to be monitoring emails and calls even in their off hours. We've created an imbalanced job market that fails to give people the opportunity to even be good parents by demanding they give everything to their job(s) and if they aren't willing to give everything then it's acceptable for them to be fired "because it's just the economics".

Also, kids should be taught to respect people who earn it, not give it implicitly because of a title or someone's age. I'm not saying to be actively disrespectful of folks, but to teach your kids that a uniform demands respect without earning it is how we get into situations like the Catholic Church covering up for priests molesting children.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

We don’t need 156 Superintendents with 156 District offices with 156 District Office support staffs that are the Superintendents relatives, buddies etc...we need 10.

[WinningIsRelentless]

We don’t need 156 Superintendents with 156 District offices with 156 District Office support staffs that are the Superintendents relatives, buddies etc...we need 10.

We could solve a lot of issues in the state by consolidating it about 35 counties and school districts.

[MetEdDawg]

We could solve a lot of issues in the state by consolidating it about 35 counties and school districts.

You don't want to figure that nasty out. Each county should have its own system but the litigation you might get into having districts that run across county lines potentially is nasty.

Best to keep things in county due to different tax structures for different counties potentially going to buildings that aren't even in the county.

You at a minimum need one school district per county. But I would definitely agree MS needs to consolidate. And some of y'all may not agree with this but there are entirely too many private schools in MS. Way too many. If MS wants to save money they are going to have to consolidate some academies with public schools. Part of the issue is administrative costs but think about secretarial costs and things like that. One school of 300 and a school of 200 has 2 bookkeepers. 2 athletic directors. 2 registrars. 2 secretaries. List goes on and on. If you consolidate into one school of 500, all of those decrease to 1 person. That's over $100,000 per year right off the bat.

So yes central office personnel is an issue, but the school level is where you will see the biggest difference. Those two schools will also both need an assistant principal. Combine those two schools and they still only qualify for funding for 1 assistant principal. Boom there's $65,000 per year in salary and another $25,000-$35,000 per year in benefits.

[Lord McBuckethead]

You don't want to figure that nasty out. Each county should have its own system but the litigation you might get into having districts that run across county lines potentially is nasty.

Best to keep things in county due to different tax structures for different counties potentially going to buildings that aren't even in the county.

You at a minimum need one school district per county. But I would definitely agree MS needs to consolidate. And some of y'all may not agree with this but there are entirely too many private schools in MS. Way too many. If MS wants to save money they are going to have to consolidate some academies with public schools. Part of the issue is administrative costs but think about secretarial costs and things like that. One school of 300 and a school of 200 has 2 bookkeepers. 2 athletic directors. 2 registrars. 2 secretaries. List goes on and on. If you consolidate into one school of 500, all of those decrease to 1 person. That's over $100,000 per year right off the bat.

So yes central office personnel is an issue, but the school level is where you will see the biggest difference. Those two schools will also both need an assistant principal. Combine those two schools and they still only qualify for funding for 1 assistant principal. Boom there's $65,000 per year in salary and another $25,000-$35,000 per year in benefits.

Well academies are not going to join public schools. Their sole purpose is so rich people do not have to send their kids to school with poor people. I am not sure, but the first reason so many popped up in Mississippi, segregation.....right?

[WinningIsRelentless]

We don’t need 156 Superintendents with 156 District offices with 156 District Office support staffs that are the Superintendents relatives, buddies etc...we need 10.


You don't want to figure that nasty out. Each county should have its own system but the litigation you might get into having districts that run across county lines potentially is nasty.

Best to keep things in county due to different tax structures for different counties potentially going to buildings that aren't even in the county.

You at a minimum need one school district per county. But I would definitely agree MS needs to consolidate. And some of y'all may not agree with this but there are entirely too many private schools in MS. Way too many. If MS wants to save money they are going to have to consolidate some academies with public schools. Part of the issue is administrative costs but think about secretarial costs and things like that. One school of 300 and a school of 200 has 2 bookkeepers. 2 athletic directors. 2 registrars. 2 secretaries. List goes on and on. If you consolidate into one school of 500, all of those decrease to 1 person. That's over $100,000 per year right off the bat.

So yes central office personnel is an issue, but the school level is where you will see the biggest difference. Those two schools will also both need an assistant principal. Combine those two schools and they still only qualify for funding for 1 assistant principal. Boom there's $65,000 per year in salary and another $25,000-$35,000 per year in benefits.

You aren?t following what I?m saying. I?m saying it?s no reason for a state of 2.99MM and decreasing to have 82 counties and ever how many school districts. Do away with about 50 counties and more school districts and then the money goes a lot further. Just think about the savings we would create.

[Lord McBuckethead]

You aren?t following what I?m saying. I?m saying it?s no reason for a state of 2.99MM and decreasing to have 82 counties and ever how many school districts. Do away with about 50 counties and more school districts and then the money goes a lot further. Just think about the savings we would create.

I could get on board with that.

[Homedawg]

We don’t need 156 Superintendents with 156 District offices with 156 District Office support staffs that are the Superintendents relatives, buddies etc...we need 10.

10?? So STARKVILLE, COLUMBUS , West Point etc etc should be run by one person?? No.

[Fader21]

This isn't just a teaching problem. It's a problem with a lot of public service positions. People who go into teaching, law enforcement, firefighting etc don't do it for money. Yes we would all loved a bigger paycheck but how political everything has gotten over the last 5-10 years has driven many away. I left Law Enforcement because you don't have support from your Administration or the general public anymore. Then teachers have to deal with unruly kids and when teachers punish them, you have parents who don't want to go along with the teacher's recommendation and try to fight the punishment.

In the end throwing more money into education or paying teachers a 1000 dollars more a year is not going to solve teacher shortage. You have to change philosophy of classroom management.

[Dawg2003]

Well academies are not going to join public schools. Their sole purpose is so rich people do not have to send their kids to school with poor people. I am not sure, but the first reason so many popped up in Mississippi, segregation.....right?

I can only speak for myself, but I was in the public school system through the 5th grade, and I was two years behind when my parents sent me to a private school. Of course, I had been acing everything at the public school. My public school teacher was actually the one who suggested to my parents that they put me in a private school if possible. My parents had to get me private tutors for two years to catch up.

[Lord McBuckethead]

This isn't just a teaching problem. It's a problem with a lot of public service positions. People who go into teaching, law enforcement, firefighting etc don't do it for money. Yes we would all loved a bigger paycheck but how political everything has gotten over the last 5-10 years has driven many away. I left Law Enforcement because you don't have support from your Administration or the general public anymore. Then teachers have to deal with unruly kids and when teachers punish them, you have parents who don't want to go along with the teacher's recommendation and try to fight the punishment.

In the end throwing more money into education or paying teachers a 1000 dollars more a year is not going to solve teacher shortage. You have to change philosophy of classroom management.

Agreed. You have to change the philosophy of the classroom and society.

[HeCannotGo]

You aren?t following what I?m saying. I?m saying it?s no reason for a state of 2.99MM and decreasing to have 82 counties and ever how many school districts. Do away with about 50 counties and more school districts and then the money goes a lot further. Just think about the savings we would create.

This, this, 1000 times this. Arizona has 7.1 million people and 15 counties. 82 counties in Mississippi, with a population of less than 3 million, is very wasteful. There's no longer a need to have the county seat be no further away than one day's ride on a horse. Consolidating down to 10 or 12 counties (and a like number of school districts, county coroners, etc.) would save massive amounts of taxpayer money that could be better spent elsewhere.

[timotheus]

I agree but MS ain't goin to eliminate any county seays.

[BrunswickDawg]

This, this, 1000 times this. Arizona has 7.1 million people and 15 counties. 82 counties in Mississippi, with a population of less than 3 million, is very wasteful. There's no longer a need to have the county seat be no further away than one day's ride on a horse. Consolidating down to 10 or 12 counties (and a like number of school districts, county coroners, etc.) would save massive amounts of taxpayer money that could be better spent elsewhere.

It's not that unusual. Georgia has 159 counties - 2nd only to Texas. Yes, the state population is about 10 million - but 6 million of those live in 28 counties around Atlanta. That leaves 4 million people in 131 counties spread across the largest state east of the Mississippi. If you subtract Savannah, Macon, Athens, and Augusta that reduces the population to about 3 million across 127 counties. That's a whole lot of local government to pay for.

[fader2103]

This, this, 1000 times this. Arizona has 7.1 million people and 15 counties. 82 counties in Mississippi, with a population of less than 3 million, is very wasteful. There's no longer a need to have the county seat be no further away than one day's ride on a horse. Consolidating down to 10 or 12 counties (and a like number of school districts, county coroners, etc.) would save massive amounts of taxpayer money that could be better spent elsewhere.

I can agree on consolidating the 156 school districts to 82 (1 for each county), but there is no way that the state will combine 82 counties. There is too many jobs in county government that would be eliminated by combining the counties. Also I don't know how much the home rule would impact the decision of combining counties.

[WinningIsRelentless]

I can agree on consolidating the 156 school districts to 82 (1 for each county), but there is no way that the state will combine 82 counties. There is too many jobs in county government that would be eliminated by combining the counties. Also I don't know how much the home rule would impact the decision of combining counties.
That?s the jest of it. I mean does a county of say 20,000 need 5 supervisors making 40k plus with a county vehicle? What about school district offices?

[dawgs]

I can only speak for myself, but I was in the public school system through the 5th grade, and I was two years behind when my parents sent me to a private school. Of course, I had been acing everything at the public school. My public school teacher was actually the one who suggested to my parents that they put me in a private school if possible. My parents had to get me private tutors for two years to catch up.

I went to private school K-12, but would've moved to public school in HS if I hadn't wanted to play sports. My sister went to the same private school through 9th grade, moved to the public school for HS and was blown away how much harder the public school was. She worked her ass off and always said she was kinda embarrassed she didn't make straight A's at the private school once she saw how much easier it was than the public school. We are from Starkville, so I'll let y'all figure out which private and public schools I'm referring to.

[Dawg2003]

I went to private school K-12, but would've moved to public school in HS if I hadn't wanted to play sports. My sister went to the same private school through 9th grade, moved to the public school for HS and was blown away how much harder the public school was. She worked her ass off and always said she was kinda embarrassed she didn't make straight A's at the private school once she saw how much easier it was than the public school. We are from Starkville, so I'll let y'all figure out which private and public schools I'm referring to.

I always heard Starkville public schools were better than Starkville Academy. I've heard that from numerous people. You always have to do your research because there are some bogus private schools out there. I was lucky that my parents researched several private schools in our area before picking one, but I live in a much more heavily populated area than Starkville.

It's actually funny that you mention the Starkville schools because one of my old friends was a math professor who had a brother that sent his kid to the more difficult school that you mentioned. He had taught in a lot of different states, but he would always say how behind the MS public schools and MS State were at teaching math. I don't know if that's true, but that was his opinion.

[Johnson85]

I can agree on consolidating the 156 school districts to 82 (1 for each county), but there is no way that the state will combine 82 counties. There is too many jobs in county government that would be eliminated by combining the counties. Also I don't know how much the home rule would impact the decision of combining counties.

The county jobs would create a big special interest group against consolidation, but I'm not sure how many counties are close enough in size and functionality to allow politics for consolidation to begin with. Not that Madison or Hinds are counties that need to be consolidated, but Madison County would obviously fight tooth and nail not to be consolidated with Hinds and its dysfunction. Forrest and Lamar maybe could be consolidated since hattiesburg is in parts of each, but I'm guessing Lamar is less dysfunctional than Forrest and probably wouldn't want to be consolidated with it? The three coastal counties could maybe consolidate, but I'm not sure Jackson or Hancock would want to because of a concern that between the votes in Biloxi and Gulfport and the central geographic location, that Harrison would end up dominating the consolidated county. Would there be a similar concern with the norther three counties?

If you tried to consolidate north and south instead of across the coast and say consolidate Stone with Harrison or George with Jackson county, I think they'd have the same concern about being dominated by larger population centers to the south. I guess Pearl River and Hancock are close enough in size that it might work, and that's probably when you'd get into the political fights over jobs, because the natural geographic location for county government would be picayune.

I'm sure there are some counties where consolidation would at least make sense as far as population and political makeup. Maybe Leake and Neshoba? Smith, Jasper, and Clarke? Rankin and Simpson? Sunflower and Leflore? I'd be curious as to how many people on here live in a county that is adjacent to a county they would be willing to throw their lot in with.

[WinningIsRelentless]

The county jobs would create a big special interest group against consolidation, but I'm not sure how many counties are close enough in size and functionality to allow politics for consolidation to begin with. Not that Madison or Hinds are counties that need to be consolidated, but Madison County would obviously fight tooth and nail not to be consolidated with Hinds and its dysfunction. Forrest and Lamar maybe could be consolidated since hattiesburg is in parts of each, but I'm guessing Lamar is less dysfunctional than Forrest and probably wouldn't want to be consolidated with it? The three coastal counties could maybe consolidate, but I'm not sure Jackson or Hancock would want to because of a concern that between the votes in Biloxi and Gulfport and the central geographic location, that Harrison would end up dominating the consolidated county. Would there be a similar concern with the norther three counties?

If you tried to consolidate north and south instead of across the coast and say consolidate Stone with Harrison or George with Jackson county, I think they'd have the same concern about being dominated by larger population centers to the south. I guess Pearl River and Hancock are close enough in size that it might work, and that's probably when you'd get into the political fights over jobs, because the natural geographic location for county government would be picayune.

I'm sure there are some counties where consolidation would at least make sense as far as population and political makeup. Maybe Leake and Neshoba? Smith, Jasper, and Clarke? Rankin and Simpson? Sunflower and Leflore? I'd be curious as to how many people on here live in a county that is adjacent to a county they would be willing to throw their lot in with.

MS 10 largest counties make up 33% of the total state population. MS has 2 counties with under 5k in total population, 12 counties with under 10k in total population, 35 counties with under 20k in total population and 54 counties with under 30k in total population.

Something needs to be done about that!

[Maroonthirteen]

I can retire from my career in a few years. I always wanted to teach and plan to do just that in my next career. I don’t know now..... ��

[Lord McBuckethead]

I too would love to teach, but instead I am going to continue to work to make sure my daughter is the best prepared student in the district. I mean, I could teach everything from art class to Calculus and Cal based physics in high school. Not chemistry though, never had a grasp for chemistry. My high school teacher sucked.