Giving Croom credit

[Coach007]

I 100% believe we had a man of integrity that set the strong foundation for the next man to build up MSU right. You might disagree, and that is ok. Makes the world go around. But I believe he cleaned up a lot of things and started the righting of the ship.


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[ScoobaDawg]

Well it won't be the first thing you have been wrong on consistently...

Croom set us back.. and was lazy..ignorant and stubborn. and a bad coach.

[BrunswickDawg]

Well it won't be the first thing you have been wrong on consistently...

Croom set us back.. and was lazy..ignorant and stubborn. and a bad coach.

Don't get me started on the myth that he cleaned up the program. Yeah, he kicked a bunch of Jackie's guys off the team for almost no reason, but we had players of his getting busted left and right for stuff. IIRCC he had players shooting up campus.

[BeardoMSU]

Well it won't be the first thing you have been wrong on consistently...

Croom set us back.. and was lazy..ignorant and stubborn. and a bad coach.
This^^

[BeardoMSU]

Don't get me started on the myth that he cleaned up the program. Yeah, he kicked a bunch of Jackie's guys off the team for almost no reason, but we had players of his getting busted left and right for stuff. IIRCC he had players shooting up campus.

Aaaaand this^^

[TrapGame]

Well it won't be the first thing you have been wrong on consistently...

Croom set us back.. and was lazy..ignorant and stubborn. and a bad coach.

I'm gonna agree.

That man fell asleep on a recruit's couch for crying out loud!

[thf24]

Don't get me started on the myth that he cleaned up the program. Yeah, he kicked a bunch of Jackie's guys off the team for almost no reason, but we had players of his getting busted left and right for stuff. IIRCC he had players shooting up campus.

It's a little baffling as to how said myth even got legs in the first place, given how easy it to see how obviously false it is with an objective glance back over the Croom era timeline.

[NCDawg]

Guess he does deserve credit for beating Alabama and Auburn in the same year, and Alabama with King Saban no less. He was a fine man and if he had replaced his OC, I think he would have done a whole lot better.

[Coach007]

Well it won't be the first thing you have been wrong on consistently...

Croom set us back.. and was lazy..ignorant and stubborn. and a bad coach.

No. He wasn't lazy. He wasn't ignorant. Yes.. He was stubborn.

[msu15]

Guess he does deserve credit for beating Alabama and Auburn in the same year, and Alabama with King Saban no less. He was a fine man and if he had replaced his OC, I think he would have done a whole lot better.

He flat out told Demario Bobo his senior year that he wanted to give his scholarship over to Lance Long. What a fine man

[Johnson85]

Guess he does deserve credit for beating Alabama and Auburn in the same year, and Alabama with King Saban no less. He was a fine man and if he had replaced his OC, I think he would have done a whole lot better.

Croom had more deficiencies than just his OC. His biggest issue is he was more loyal to his coaches than his players. Cheese shouldn't have been named defensive coordinator and it was a disservice to his players to do that. Maybe there was just nobody willing to come knowing their stats weren't going to look good b/c of the consistent 3 and outs by the offense. His second biggest issue was his stubborness. Maybe Woody shouldn't have been OC, maybe Croom should have let him run something besides west coast; but it's inexcusable the he tried basically zero adjustments over 5 years on offense despite never showing any improvement.

The biggest thing is Croom just didn't bring anything much to the table. He wasn't a dynamic or even particularly good recruiter. He got some good enough guys, but they weren't noticeably higher character than Jackie's and were worse than Mullen's. He was a drag on offense. Our special teams didn't do particularly well. Our defense was pretty good and he gets credit for making a good hire to begin with before making a bad hire. At the end of the day, you have to ask him the Office SPace question to find out what it is he would say he did here. And the answer is not much.

And while he's certainly not a bad guy, give me Rick Ray any day. When he failed, he said he was grateful for the opportunity and didn't get the job done despite his best efforts. Croom criticized us.

[Ezsoil]

No. He wasn't lazy. He wasn't ignorant. Yes.. He was stubborn.

I would say I'm more in this camp.... lazy? I doubt you do the things he did as a player and a coach by being lazy... Ignorant...no way...he got millions of dollars out of MSU ... stubborn....that he definitely was..

[drunkernhelldawg]

I 100% believe we had a man of integrity that set the strong foundation for the next man to build up MSU right. You might disagree, and that is ok. Makes the world go around. But I believe he cleaned up a lot of things and started the righting of the ship.


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I agree with this. Croom made us competitive before he was run off. When he came in, we were not competitive.

[Commercecomet24]

The myth of croom grew because finebaum loved croom and hated jackie. That plus ol ears knew croom would keep us at the bottom of the sec, where he thought we belonged.

[StarkvilleGuru]

Croom was HOT garbage as a head college football coach. We lost to MAINE. Don't feed into the stupid televised documentary on Croom that said he got the short end of the stick. Sylvester Croom was supposed to be a great coach, and failed miserably. There is nothing else to talk about. Next thread.

P.S. I wish it would have been the opposite, Croom had the resume, but he was nothing more than qualifications on paper.

[BrunswickDawg]

I agree with this. Croom made us competitive before he was run off. When he came in, we were not competitive.

No, he absolutely did not make us competitive. We had 1 - O-N-E - season of lucky as shit football that we won 7 regular season games.

3-8, 3-8, 3-9, 8-5, 4-8 is not competing in football.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

I agree with this. Croom made us competitive before he was run off. When he came in, we were not competitive.

Honestly. What team were you watching ? He was run off because we had 5 years of horrible football. (Yes- even 2007. We were a complete smoke and mirrors team that got lucky with some timely turnovers)

The nail in the coffin was a 45-0 public execution to Ole Miss. Maybe the worst beating I have ever seen us take.

Croom was awful.

[drunkernhelldawg]

Honestly. What team were you watching ? He was run off because we had 5 years of horrible football. (Yes- even 2007. We were a complete smoke and mirrors team that got lucky with some timely turnovers)

The nail in the coffin was a 45-0 public execution to Ole Miss. Maybe the worst beating I have ever seen us take.

Croom was awful.

Maybe you're forgotten the three seasons before Croom. Look it up. Also, the decision to fire Croom was made after the La Tech loss to start the season. We could have beat Ole Miss 45 -0 and he still would have been run off. Finally, I remember that team being two kicks from a winning record. My point about competiveness stands. Croom made plenty of mistakes, but he did build the program.

That whole decade was the worst in our history, but the blame does not all go to Croom. Look it up.

[msu15]

I agree with this. Croom made us competitive before he was run off. When he came in, we were not competitive.

We got our ass kicked by Louisiana Tech in his 5th season. What a competitive program we were.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

He didn't have the resume.

He was the running backs coach for the Packers. I'd be willing to bet you can't name one running back coach in the NFL right now; I certainly can't.

Offensive coordinator for the Lions with the best running back to ever play the game. Still only managed 2 winning seasons (Both 9-7)

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

Maybe you're forgotten the three seasons before Croom. Look it up. Also, the decision to fire Croom was made after the La Tech loss to start the season. We could have beat Ole Miss 45 -0 and he still would have been run off. Finally, I remember that team being two kicks from a winning record. My point about competiveness stands. Croom made plenty of mistakes, but he did build the program.

That whole decade was the worst in our history, but the blame does not all go to Croom. Look it up.

Are you actually him?

I remember the 3 seasons prior just fine. We were about the same as when Croom was the coach.

Your theory about La Tech is wrong as well. Croom, for some reason, was going to be given another season in 2009 if he were willing to replace Woody McCorvey as OC. As it has been stated here before, he was stubborn and unwilling to compromise. He would not fire Woody, and it ultimately cost him his job.

Thank goodness he didn't beat Ole Miss 45-0. He might still be the coach.

[TrapGame]

No, he absolutely did not make us competitive. We had 1 - O-N-E - season of lucky as shit football that we won 7 regular season games.

3-8, 3-8, 3-9, 8-5, 4-8 is not competing in football.

And the coaches he did beat usually found themselves unemployed or on a very hot seat.

[drunkernhelldawg]

Are you actually him?

I remember the 3 seasons prior just fine. We were about the same as when Croom was the coach.

Your theory about La Tech is wrong as well. Croom, for some reason, was going to be given another season in 2009 if he were willing to replace Woody McCorvey as OC. As it has been stated here before, he was stubborn and unwilling to compromise. He would not fire Woody, and it ultimately cost him his job.

Thank goodness he didn't beat Ole Miss 45-0. He might still be the coach.

I was there. The negativity toward Croom was unrelenting after the La Tech loss. I'll always believe it was over then. And it's interesting that this loss followed our only winning season of the entire decade, yet the reaction was still what it was. I'll always wonder why that is.

I do think that that the athletic department started Croom off on the wrong foot with that "the only color that matters" bullshit. It was a mistake for us to feed the racial aspect. The proper response is to ignore that as much as possible, history or not. We're a living institution, not a textbook.

[Coach007]

Don't get me started on the myth that he cleaned up the program. Yeah, he kicked a bunch of Jackie's guys off the team for almost no reason, but we had players of his getting busted left and right for stuff. IIRCC he had players shooting up campus.

It's not a myth. Let me take you back in time:

Croom addresses city’s Bulldog faithful.... 2004

He got a standing ovation for this comment: “I don’t care how fast he can run, how high he can jump. If he hasn’t made it through four years of high school on his own, and have parents who have put him on the right path, I will not take them at Mississippi State.”

At that time, MSU was besieged by disciplinary problems, an NCAA investigation, and allegations of NCAA rules violations under former coach Jackie Sherrill. Those are facts nobody can deny.

He dismissed our top RB.. Why? He was charged with possession of counterfeit money.

Mills was charged with burglary and uttering forgery. Mills was the 8th in that one spring arrested. We had 6 players assault an off duty cop. They didn't know but none the less 5 players assaulted a guy who was breaking up a fight. And that's not even all of them... that's the ones I remember.


Nobody is claiming that Croom was a GREAT head coach in Xs and Os. He directed MS St through a 4 year probation and ran a tight ship.

[thf24]

I was there. The negativity toward Croom was unrelenting after the La Tech loss. I'll always believe it was over then. And it's interesting that this loss followed our only winning season of the entire decade, yet the reaction was still what it was. I'll always wonder why that is.

Of course there was unrelenting negativity after La Tech; besides getting abused by a CUSA team in general, it was jarring confirmation of many's suspicions that 2007 was a mirage and we'd turned no corners. And even then it's still false that he was gone at that point. It's been common knowledge for years that after the Egg Bowl he was offered another season if he'd just replace McCorvey.

eta: Not CUSA, WAC at that point. Even worse.

[BeardoMSU]

It's not a myth. Let me take you back in time:

Croom addresses city’s Bulldog faithful.... 2004

He got a standing ovation for this comment: “I don’t care how fast he can run, how high he can jump. If he hasn’t made it through four years of high school on his own, and have parents who have put him on the right path, I will not take them at Mississippi State.”

At that time, MSU was besieged by disciplinary problems, an NCAA investigation, and allegations of NCAA rules violations under former coach Jackie Sherrill. Those are facts nobody can deny.

He dismissed our top RB.. Why? He was charged with possession of counterfeit money.

Mills was charged with burglary and uttering forgery. Mills was the 8th in that one spring arrested. We had 6 players assault an off duty cop. They didn't know but none the less 5 players assaulted a guy who was breaking up a fight. And that's not even all of them... that's the ones I remember.


Nobody is claiming that Croom was a GREAT head coach in Xs and Os. He directed MS St through a 4 year probation and ran a tight ship.

Nothing tight about a ship who's sailors shoot guns on campus, or when the captain of said ship throws his higher-ups under the bus for firing him....

[BrunswickDawg]

It's not a myth. Let me take you back in time:

Croom addresses city?s Bulldog faithful.... 2004

He got a standing ovation for this comment: ?I don?t care how fast he can run, how high he can jump. If he hasn?t made it through four years of high school on his own, and have parents who have put him on the right path, I will not take them at Mississippi State.?

At that time, MSU was besieged by disciplinary problems, an NCAA investigation, and allegations of NCAA rules violations under former coach Jackie Sherrill. Those are facts nobody can deny.

He dismissed our top RB.. Why? He was charged with possession of counterfeit money.

Mills was charged with burglary and uttering forgery. Mills was the 8th in that one spring arrested. We had 6 players assault an off duty cop. They didn't know but none the less 5 players assaulted a guy who was breaking up a fight. And that's not even all of them... that's the ones I remember.


Nobody is claiming that Croom was a GREAT head coach in Xs and Os. He directed MS St through a 4 year probation and ran a tight ship.

Top running back? He inherited Jerious Norwood - arguably the best back we've ever had - then had Boobie. When did Croom kick them off the team?

And Mills??? The only Mills I can find was Keith Mills, an un-rated WR we signed in 2006. You want to give credit to Croom for kicking a felon off the team? That is laughable. And those players who assaulted a cop? You think any coach in the country would have kept them on the team? I don't even think Freeze at his worst would have done that - and he recruited a guy who stuck his finger in guys butts.

[drunkernhelldawg]

Of course there was unrelenting negativity after La Tech; besides getting abused by a CUSA team in general, it was jarring confirmation of many's suspicions that 2007 was a mirage and we'd turned no corners. And even then it's still false that he was gone at that point. It's been common knowledge for years that after the Egg Bowl he was offered another season if he'd just replace McCorvey.

eta: Not CUSA, WAC at that point. Even worse.

That's the other thing that was odd about our fans' reaction to Croom. They didn't want to give him credit for winning. I can't think of another example of this happening, but there it is.

And for context, in Mullen's first season, he blew a chance to beat LSU with a jump pass call. Yet fans resisted blaming him, many putting it on Henig's lack of execution. Yet we had first and goal at the one and ultimately failed on a trick play.

It is what it is.

[Coach007]

We got our ass kicked by Louisiana Tech in his 5th season. What a competitive program we were.

Again... JWS had lost control of the team. We were put on a 4 year probation. ALL of which Croom had to deal with. JWS recruiting class was ranked 56th that Croom inherited.

The next season, he recruited the 26th ranked class signing 1 Five star and 2 Four stars. HE was able to sign 3 to 4 Four stars every year to a depleted team with discipline problems.

He also set in motion the #18 class prior to Mullen being hired.

[Coach007]

Nothing tight about a ship who's sailors shoot guns on campus, or when the captain of said ship throws his higher-ups under the bus for firing him....


And kicked them off the team. Those things were happening on JWS watch. Croom helped clean that up.

[NCDawg]

Again... JWS had lost control of the team. We were put on a 4 year probation. ALL of which Croom had to deal with. JWS recruiting class was ranked 56th that Croom inherited.

The next season, he recruited the 26th ranked class signing 1 Five star and 2 Four stars. HE was able to sign 3 to 4 Four stars every year to a depleted team with discipline problems.

He also set in motion the #18 class prior to Mullen being hired.

You make a lot of good points, but the 45-0 loss to Ole Miss, which Croom said he "didn't see coming", was a killer.

[Coach007]

Top running back? He inherited Jerious Norwood - arguably the best back we've ever had - then had Boobie. When did Croom kick them off the team?

.

Parade All-American running back at Washington High who went on to lead Mississippi State University in rushing. ABOVE Norwood. Same class. Norwood finished second on the team with 66 rushes for 394 yards. Turner led the team and ranked second in the Southeastern Conference in all-purpose yardage with 138.7 per game in 2003. Turner led the Bulldogs with 745 rushing yards and seven touchdowns in 2003..... Norwood finished the season with 121 carries for 642 yards and two touchdowns.

So yes. He dismissed our TOP Running back.

[Goldendawg]

Don't forget that great display of "offense" when he only lost to Auburn by 1 point, (3-2)!*** Probably, the worse display of truly "offensive" MSU football that I have every watched and I saw my first State games in 1963. I bet if you researched it, he had to kick off about as many of his guys as Jackie's, the gunfight was on his watch. Except for that one year as DC with the Lions, he was a career RB coach in the NFL, the position he returned to after MSU. His AL wins were against poor teams for them. Lazy, didn't he coach practice from a golf cart? As far as "I didn't see that one coming", 45 -0 UM, he was getting paid well to know what was coming. "Remember the Maine".

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

And kicked them off the team. Those things were happening on JWS watch. Croom helped clean that up.

The guys shooting the guns on campus was between the 2007 and 2008 season. This is ultimately what Croom said made us suck in 2008 according to that propaganda that SEC network released.

He also had his fair share of other disciplinary problems in 5 years. Your diatribe about his recruiting is just further proof how awful he was. Hes recruiting top 25 classes, yet we were only winning 3 games a year. Something doesn't add up.

[Coach007]

You make a lot of good points, but the 45-0 loss to Ole Miss, which Croom said he "didn't see coming", was a killer.

100% agree and I'm not claiming Croom should not have been fired.

I'm simply claiming he guided MS ST through probation and put needed discipline back into the team. He did not care if you were a 5 star or all american. Do it right. Mullen got that benefit.

[Goldendawg]

bama hired Mike Schula instead of him. I rest my case.

[Coach007]

The guys shooting the guns on campus was between the 2007 and 2008 season. This is ultimately what Croom said made us suck in 2008 according to that propaganda that SEC network released.

He also had his fair share of other disciplinary problems in 5 years. Your diatribe about his recruiting is just further proof how awful he was. Hes recruiting top 25 classes, yet we were only winning 3 games a year. Something doesn't add up.

Changing a culture takes time. We had problems for 3 years prior to Croom. Fans and Alumni were sick and tired of our player issues coupled with 2 wins per season along with probation coming in.

Unless Croom was to reset the roster to zero and start over, we all knew it would take time.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

Changing a culture takes time. We had problems for 3 years prior to Croom. Fans and Alumni were sick and tired of our player issues coupled with 2 wins per season along with probation coming in.

Unless Croom was to reset the roster to zero and start over, we all knew it would take time.

Dixon got a DUI within the first month that Mullen was here. Guess it took a little more time than we thought

[Liverpooldawg]

I liked Croom. I wanted him to succeed probably more than any other MSU coach except Rocky Felker. Croom just didn't have it. I'm glad he had that one good year, but it was obvious even that year he wasn't going to make it.

[Goldendawg]

Don't want to go back to the first post, but did Larry Templeton and ESPN start this thread?*****

[Todd4State]

Not sure why we are discussing this but....

Croom was a good running backs coach. One of the best in the NFL at it and maybe the best at it.


Croom was not a good head coach. I don't think anyone disagrees here.


He gave us something positive when our program was the lowest I have ever seen it in my fan lifetime- 2-10 after 2003 and on probation. One of those wins was a sloppy win over Vanderbilt and a win where Sherrill acted like a complete ass after we beat Memphis.


The 2007 team should get more credit than it does. Yes, they had some timely turnovers and special teams play but THEY did that. They should get credit for that. I have often wondered what that team would have been like if Jackie had redshirted Omarr Conner in 2003 like he should have instead of play him at WR for a few snaps in some what were essentially meaningless games for us because we weren't even going to be bowl eligible.

[Coach007]

Dixon got a DUI within the first month that Mullen was here. Guess it took a little more time than we thought

DUI, while being bad and stupid thing to do, is not forgery of US Dollars, shooting, multiple players beating up a cop...etc... But I'm not going to argue with you about.

Croom did a great job with discipline and a great job towards building back up the team. Mullen extended that to higher expectations.

[Pollodawg]

I was there. The negativity toward Croom was unrelenting after the La Tech loss. I'll always believe it was over then. And it's interesting that this loss followed our only winning season of the entire decade, yet the reaction was still what it was. I'll always wonder why that is.

I do think that that the athletic department started Croom off on the wrong foot with that "the only color that matters" bullshit. It was a mistake for us to feed the racial aspect. The proper response is to ignore that as much as possible, history or not. We're a living institution, not a textbook.

You wonder why the reaction was what it was? We lost to La friggen Tech. The reaction was the same when Dan lost to USA. Stop trying to make something out of nothing. We all know what you?re doing.

[Coach34]

Here are the facts:

1. Croom had twice as many players arrested in 5 years as Jackie Wayne did in 13.
2. Croom fell asleep on a recruit's couch
3. Croom lost his job because he would not fire his OC who ran exactly what Croom wanted him to run on offense
4. Croom said he would retire before changing to a Spread Offense (but instead made The Ninja fire him)
5. Croom said he saw on film Maine had as good or better talent than we had
6. Croom said the reason we were losing in 2008 was because the D wasnt scoring as much as they did in 2007
7. Croom said he didnt care if we didnt gain a yard- he was going to line-up and run right at LSU (Nick Saban)
8. Croom rejected Jackie's offer to help him transition at State
9. Croom made Omar Conner- who was built for the Spread- make a thousand reads at QB
10. Croom was a terrible HC period. Some of his former assts still laugh at him and the shit he did. Hearing one of them tell the falling asleep on the couch story while laughing so hard they can barely finish it tells you everything you need to know his time in Sville.

[Coach007]

Not sure why we are discussing this but....

Croom was a good running backs coach. One of the best in the NFL at it and maybe the best at it.


Croom was not a good head coach. I don't think anyone disagrees here.


He gave us something positive when our program was the lowest I have ever seen it in my fan lifetime- 2-10 after 2003 and on probation. One of those wins was a sloppy win over Vanderbilt and a win where Sherrill acted like a complete ass after we beat Memphis.


The 2007 team should get more credit than it does. Yes, they had some timely turnovers and special teams play but THEY did that. They should get credit for that. I have often wondered what that team would have been like if Jackie had redshirted Omarr Conner in 2003 like he should have instead of play him at WR for a few snaps in some what were essentially meaningless games for us because we weren't even going to be bowl eligible.

That's all anybody is saying. Some people it's just either or.

[Pollodawg]

Not sure why we are discussing this but....

Croom was a good running backs coach. One of the best in the NFL at it and maybe the best at it.


Croom was not a good head coach. I don't think anyone disagrees here.


He gave us something positive when our program was the lowest I have ever seen it in my fan lifetime- 2-10 after 2003 and on probation. One of those wins was a sloppy win over Vanderbilt and a win where Sherrill acted like a complete ass after we beat Memphis.


The 2007 team should get more credit than it does. Yes, they had some timely turnovers and special teams play but THEY did that. They should get credit for that. I have often wondered what that team would have been like if Jackie had redshirted Omarr Conner in 2003 like he should have instead of play him at WR for a few snaps in some what were essentially meaningless games for us because we weren't even going to be bowl eligible.


Except for Dixon and Derek Peguess, I don’t recall a single player from that ‘07 team. Odd.

And, yes, I absolutely blame Jackie for 2001-2003, and I blame Dan for 2016. Jackie had mailed it in by then, and Dan handled the locker room about as poorly as he could’ve to start that season. I don’t just blame Croom for his mistakes.

[Pollodawg]

Croom always saw himself as too good for MSU. He started his tenure mad that Bama didn’t want him and never got over it.

[Coach007]

1. Croom had twice as many players arrested in 5 years as Jackie Wayne did in 13.

That's what happens when the head coach allows discipline to tank. That's a fact too. JWS did that. We were on probation for what JWS did. Not Croom.


2. Croom fell asleep on a recruit's couch



Has zero to do with the topic.



3. Croom lost his job because he would not fire his OC who ran exactly what Croom wanted him to run on offense
4. Croom said he would retire before changing to a Spread Offense (but instead made The Ninja fire him)


Has nothing to do with the topic.

In fact, #s 5,6,7,8(which would be stupid of him to allow), 9, 10 have zero to do with the topic. The credit being given to him is from the lack of discipline he inherited along with probation and how he restored that for the next coach.

[Goldendawg]

Croom always saw himself as too good for MSU. He started his tenure mad that Bama didn’t want him and never got over it.

This and why didn't bama hire him?

[BrunswickDawg]

That's what happens when the head coach allows discipline to tank. That's a fact too. JWS did that. We were on probation for what JWS did. Not Croom.



Has zero to do with the topic.



Has nothing to do with the topic.

In fact, #s 5,6,7,8(which would be stupid of him to allow), 9, 10 have zero to do with the topic. The credit being given to him is from the lack of discipline he inherited along with probation and how he restored that for the next coach.

What you seem to be missing is that kicking players off a team is not a sign of discipline. A disciplined team doesn't have players getting in trouble to begin with. They are in shape. They are motivated to play. Croom had none of those things. He had players counterfeiting $ and shooting up the school. His holdover players talk about how difficult Mullen's training was and they had never worked like that and been in that kind of shape. And Maine, La Tech, 45-0 all show how unmotivated they were. A disciplined team don't have those things happen.

[Goldendawg]

What you seem to be missing is that kicking players off a team is not a sign of discipline. A disciplined team doesn't have players getting in trouble to begin with. They are in shape. They are motivated to play. Croom had none of those things. He had players counterfeiting $ and shooting up the school. His holdover players talk about how difficult Mullen's training was and they had never worked like that and been in that kind of shape. And Maine, La Tech, 45-0 all show how unmotivated they were. A disciplined team don't have those things happen.

I remember watching the 45-0 disaster to UM on TV. I think Chris Relf was 3rd team and was nearly "killed" by the rush when he was put in. TV cut to him on the sideline and some players seemed to be laughing about it. This, in what, year 5. BTW, how hard is it to be a career NFL running back coach. How many of them can you name?

[Homedawg]

No. He wasn't lazy. He wasn't ignorant. Yes.. He was stubborn.

Clueless

[Homedawg]

That's what happens when the head coach allows discipline to tank. That's a fact too. JWS did that. We were on probation for what JWS did. Not Croom.



Has zero to do with the topic.



Has nothing to do with the topic.

In fact, #s 5,6,7,8(which would be stupid of him to allow), 9, 10 have zero to do with the topic. The credit being given to him is from the lack of discipline he inherited along with probation and how he restored that for the next coach.

Just stop. Nothing to do with the topic?? So what does then??? My heavens. Those have everything to do with it!! Everything!!

[Coach007]

What you seem to be missing is that kicking players off a team is not a sign of discipline. A disciplined team doesn't have players getting in trouble to begin with.

What you seem to be missing is that we had players getting in trouble and discipline had to start somewhere. That culture, unless you boot everybody off, had built up over 5 years and had to change over time.



He had players counterfeiting $


No sir.. That was JWS. Croom just did the dirty work. That happened under JWS. Croom gave him the opportunity to fix the situation and the player failed to do so. So Croom booted him.


and shooting up the school.


again, it took time to reverse the culture.



His holdover players talk about how difficult Mullen's training was and they had never worked like that and been in that kind of shape.


Awesome.


And Maine, La Tech, 45-0 all show how unmotivated they were.


Are we about to go into losses of all our coaches to see who has had an unexpected loss? Like to south Alabama... ETC? At least Croom beat bama. Talk about motivation. Saban lost at bama to ULM.

[Coach007]

Just stop. Nothing to do with the topic?? So what does then??? My heavens. Those have everything to do with it!! Everything!!

No.. it doesn't. We are not talking about his overall coaching. We are talking what he, as a HC contributed to the current success. That's cleaning up the program and and install some discipline.

[Todd4State]

Except for Dixon and Derek Peguess, I don’t recall a single player from that ‘07 team. Odd.

And, yes, I absolutely blame Jackie for 2001-2003, and I blame Dan for 2016. Jackie had mailed it in by then, and Dan handled the locker room about as poorly as he could’ve to start that season. I don’t just blame Croom for his mistakes.


Croom always saw himself as too good for MSU. He started his tenure mad that Bama didn’t want him and never got over it.

Anthony Johnson, Jamar Cheney, Keith Fitzhugh, KJ Wright, Lance Long among others...

The funny thing is Dan also saw himself as too good for MSU if we're honest with ourselves here.

[Goldendawg]

Anthony Johnson, Jamar Cheney, Keith Fitzhugh, KJ Wright, Lance Long among others...

The funny thing is Dan also saw himself as too good for MSU if we're honest with ourselves here.

Didn't Anthony Johnson get kicked off the team over the gunfight on campus and go to Jackson State? Correct me if I am wrong. Jackie's last couple of years were a total disaster, but I don't remember a gunfight by players on campus.

[Coach34]

Croom beat a 6-6 Bama teams. He never beat one that was worth a shit. The Saban team he beat finished 6-6 and didnt have a player drafted that April- the only time that has happened in what- the last 40 years?

[Goldendawg]

Still waiting for an analysis on why bama didn't hire him as their head coach. In the ESPN piece, Croom stated that he was mistreated by them in no uncertain terms.

[Coach007]

Croom beat a 6-6 Bama teams. He never beat one that was worth a shit. The Saban team he beat finished 6-6 and didnt have a player drafted that April- the only time that has happened in what- the last 40 years?

Croom beat bama 2 times. Back to back.

No it wasn't the only time we beat bama in 40 years. We beat them in 96,97,98, and 2000

[Goldendawg]

Croom beat bama 2 times. Back to back.

No it wasn't the only time we beat bama in 40 years. We beat them in 96,97,98, and 2000

Re-read. He stated that the bama team we beat did not have a single player drafted that year in what may have been the 1st time in what 40 years? Those two bama teams were terrible by their standards.

[Coach34]

Croom beat bama 2 times. Back to back.

No it wasn't the only time we beat bama in 40 years. We beat them in 96,97,98, and 2000

You misunderstand. Both Bama teams Croom beat finished 6-6. They were awful. He never beat a good Bama team. He was extremely fortunate to play Bama in a state of flux

The Nick Saban Bama team he beat didnt have a player drafted that April. I think that may be the only draft in the last 40 years Bama didnt have a player drafted into the NFL. Thats how little talent it had.

Croom is one of the worst HC's in SEC history. He was ******* awful

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

What you seem to be missing is that we had players getting in trouble and discipline had to start somewhere. That culture, unless you boot everybody off, had built up over 5 years and had to change over time.



No sir.. That was JWS. Croom just did the dirty work. That happened under JWS. Croom gave him the opportunity to fix the situation and the player failed to do so. So Croom booted him.



again, it took time to reverse the culture.



Awesome.



Are we about to go into losses of all our coaches to see who has had an unexpected loss? Like to south Alabama... ETC? At least Croom beat bama. Talk about motivation. Saban lost at bama to ULM.

It's weird how much you defend him. Jackie lost control of the program, but Croom should have had a handle on it by year 2- he didn't

Everything C34 is correct. He set us back years.

Sure Mullen had a bad loss against USA, but Croom had an absolutely stunning resume of getting his ass kicked by awful teams.

Tulane pummeled State in Starkville in 2005, one year after Katrina. They maybe had 55 scholarship players and still managed to be leading us by 30 going into 4th quarter.

I could have thrown people off the team. Croom was a disaster.

[tcdog70]

Also HENIG wasn't the QB against LSU under Dan. The Croom Error was almost as awful as the Shria Error. If the Slytanic was worth a shit why has He never been more than RB coach since? Because, he hasn't not a clue how to be a head Coach. If you remember he removed Omarr and replaced Him with HENIG. He ****ing punted from the other teams 35 yard line. He lost to Maine and then said they had a better team. His clock management was a clinic for how not to manage the clock. He lost to Tulane after Katrina decimated them. He benched a great kicker and replaced with one that couldn't kick a 35 Yarder. We had 5 turn over from Ga. and still lost, because instead of kicking a winning FG, he let HENIG, TRY A STUPID PASS. AND GOT SACKED. I could go on and on, like Croom not taking all His in home visits. 007 your stance on ole Sly has stomped a mud hole in any credibility you had.

[StarkvilleGuru]

Still waiting for an analysis on why bama didn't hire him as their head coach. In the ESPN piece, Croom stated that he was mistreated by them in no uncertain terms.

The insinuation he makes is that he didn't get the Bama job is because he is black. Bit of a fall back claim, especially in hindsight after seeing his meltdown at State. I was happy that State was the first SEC team to have a black head coach, but I was equally happy when he got fired. He was a bad head coach, there's no other way to put this. There is a reason we call 2004-2008 "The Croom Years." Croom made MSU the laughing stock of the SEC. Can I say this one more time, we lost to MAINE.

[MetEdDawg]

Someone name the 10 best recruits in the Croom Error and look at how terrible it is.

He didn't recruit, he didn't push facilities improvement, and during his 5 years is when we missed the push the SEC made into the power position it holds today.

We are suffering in SEC mediocrity partially because of him. Problem is that we may never get out of the hole that period of time dug us into.

And yes he straight up didn't get hired at Bama because he was black. Numerous accounts of folks saying they were afraid the fan base wouldn't accept him even though he played and was groomed under Bear

[R2Dawg]

The myth of croom grew because finebaum loved croom and hated jackie. That plus ol ears knew croom would keep us at the bottom of the sec, where he thought we belonged.

Boy so true. SEC and PF hated JWS because he was a threat to make MSU a year end, year out contender. JWS started to own Bama and others and they were all upset at Jackie.

[R2Dawg]

You misunderstand. Both Bama teams Croom beat finished 6-6. They were awful. He never beat a good Bama team. He was extremely fortunate to play Bama in a state of flux

The Nick Saban Bama team he beat didnt have a player drafted that April. I think that may be the only draft in the last 40 years Bama didnt have a player drafted into the NFL. Thats how little talent it had.

Croom is one of the worst HC's in SEC history. He was ******* awful

Also Bama lost to ULM at home like the week after MSU beat them. That is how bad Bama was that year. Saban's margin for error was dang small after that first year.

Croom was not a good coach, good man I believe but other than the feel good story, wasn't much else good came from 5 years. The Croom special still doesn't sit well with me the way ESPN and Croom as well made MSU look and it gets showed over and over reminding people how bad we were.

[Political Hack]

He fell asleep during a recruiting visit and drove a golf cart everywhere he went. I wouldn't say he wasn't lazy... he was and is a good man though. I just don't think he realized how much work running an SEC program requires in modern days. In a lot of ways it's way tougher on a coach than the pros.

[Goldendawg]

He couldn't even wear his cap on straight.*** BTW, who ended up with the best overall record as a SEC head coach, Croom or Mike Schula?

[Hot Rock]

I don’t know why everyone says he was a good man. How do you know? What I have seen from afar is a terrible coach that blamed his getting fired on some one besides himself. Nothing about that sounds “ good” to me. Maybe you guys saw him helping little old ladies cross the road or have first hand info on him donating his millions to charity that he took from State for worse than mediocre teams. To me, he will always be a joke and a punchline.

[BeardoMSU]

It's weird how much you defend him. Jackie lost control of the program, but Croom should have had a handle on it by year 2- he didn't

Everything C34 is correct. He set us back years.

Sure Mullen had a bad loss against USA, but Croom had an absolutely stunning resume of getting his ass kicked by awful teams.

Tulane pummeled State in Starkville in 2005, one year after Katrina. They maybe had 55 scholarship players and still managed to be leading us by 30 going into 4th quarter.

I could have thrown people off the team. Croom was a disaster.

Exactly. The revisionist history going on in this thread is baffling. While we're at it, might as well start fluffin' Larry Templeton....

[BeardoMSU]

he will always be a joke and a punchline.

/insert pic of him in helmet and pads here

Seriously, what legit SEC coach would do that shit?

[The Federalist Engineer]

Proof that Croom is great coach was that he was always being interviewed for other jobs and there was never an opening that didn't include him. ESPN was always speculating about his next gig.

Also, what about the Croom QBs. Probably every recruit in the nation wanted to be the next Henig or Tyson Lee. Even if the kid had no MSU ties, he probably dreamt about it. Croom era players basically own all MSU records.

Then, the nail on the coffin, is that Croom finally left us for that big glamorous job, still doing his thing as a head coach, and probably will make a big run for a NC someday soon.

[BeardoMSU]

Proof that Croom is great coach was that he was always being interviewed for other jobs and there was never an opening that didn't include him. ESPN was always speculating about his next gig.

Also, what about the Croom QBs. Probably every recruit in the nation wanted to be the next Henig or Tyson Lee. Even if the kid had no MSU ties, he probably dreamt about it. Croom era players basically own all MSU records.

Then, the nail on the coffin, is that Croom finally left us for that big glamorous job, still doing his thing as a head coach, and probably will make a big run for a NC someday soon.

Yikes...(especially the part in bold)

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xT0GqfvuVpNqEf3z2w/giphy.gif

But yeah, we were lucky to have him when we did.**

[BankerDog]

The guys shooting the guns on campus was between the 2007 and 2008 season. This is ultimately what Croom said made us suck in 2008 according to that propaganda that SEC network released.

He also had his fair share of other disciplinary problems in 5 years. Your diatribe about his recruiting is just further proof how awful he was. Hes recruiting top 25 classes, yet we were only winning 3 games a year. Something doesn't add up.


To his credit, Johnson and Brown were both NFL draft picks.

He also did get Boobie, Fletcher Cox, Josh Boyd, KJ Wright, Chaney, DP, Fitzhugh, McPhee, Banks, Nickoe, Deontae Skinner, and Gabe Jackson. Most of those were in that last class when I think he started figuring out the recruiting portion just a tad bit. Credit to Mullen for holding onto those guys though.

[BankerDog]

Someone name the 10 best recruits in the Croom Error and look at how terrible it is.

He didn't recruit, he didn't push facilities improvement, and during his 5 years is when we missed the push the SEC made into the power position it holds today.

We are suffering in SEC mediocrity partially because of him. Problem is that we may never get out of the hole that period of time dug us into.

And yes he straight up didn't get hired at Bama because he was black. Numerous accounts of folks saying they were afraid the fan base wouldn't accept him even though he played and was groomed under Bear

1) Fletcher Cox
2) Gabe Jackson
3)KJ Wright
4) Boobie
5) Johnathan Banks
6) Derek Pegues
7) Derek Sherrod
8) Pernell McPhee
9) Charles Mitchell
10) Jamar Chaney
11) Kyle Love
12) Deontae Skinner
13) Nickoe Whitley

I wouldn?t really call that list terrible when the top 3 guys are three of the highest paid players in the NFL, an additional two are still playing, and 11 of the 13 played in the NFL. As I said in the post above, Anthony Johnson and Mike Brown were sure fire NFL picks. Yes the on field results absolutely sucked and yes I was pissed when he ran off Nick Turner and Darren Williams, but you have to give him a little more credit. He is also the last coach to beat Bama for us and did it in twice.

[Really Clark?]

That's the other thing that was odd about our fans' reaction to Croom. They didn't want to give him credit for winning. I can't think of another example of this happening, but there it is.

And for context, in Mullen's first season, he blew a chance to beat LSU with a jump pass call. Yet fans resisted blaming him, many putting it on Henig's lack of execution. Yet we had first and goal at the one and ultimately failed on a trick play.

It is what it is.

The goal line play vs LSU at the end of the game in Mullen?s first year wasn?t a jump pass. We ran an option and Tyson (Henig wasn’t the QB) decided to keep instead of pitching to Dixon. I still believe Dixon scores easily, Tyson just made the wrong decision. The play call was there for a score and win.

[shoeless joe]

I am not particularly a Croom fan. But two people I highly respect within the game that played for both jackie and Croom gush over him as a man and as a coach. And both think he deserved better than what he got in the end.

I’m sure there are guys that played for him that feel differently.

[KOdawg1]

Reading this thread is reminding me of it all again. Seriously, you could use this thread to induce vomit. Those were some awful times

[QuadrupleOption]

Are we about to go into losses of all our coaches to see who has had an unexpected loss? Like to south Alabama... ETC? At least Croom beat bama. Talk about motivation. Saban lost at bama to ULM.

AN unexpected loss? As in, one? Croom routinely lost to teams we had no business losing to.
2004 - Maine, UAB, Vanderbilt
2005 - Houston
2006 - Tulane
2007 - no embarrassing losses but kept trotting Henig out vs. LSU to the tune of 5 ints.
2008 - La Tech

In comparison, Mullen had what I consider two bad losses over his career:
2009 - Houston
2016 - USA

And yeah, I'll give Croom credit for sometimes beating teams we weren't supposed to beat, but at the end of the day that's even WORSE. How do you knock off a ranked Florida team yet LOSE to Maine, Vanderbilt, and UAB in the same year? A decent coach would have had his team prepared to win at least two of those, and a good coach would have had his team ready to win all three. We lost out on bowl bids because Croom didn't know what the Hell he was doing.

But he always had an excuse. No talent? He inherited plenty of it. He just didn't know how to coach it.

[Jarius]

Croom is the worst coach in the history of MSU football. This idea that he “cleaned up the program” is a joke and a crutch that people use to try and make his tenure look better than it was. He kicked off half the team because he is a complete idiot. That was completely unnecessary. He gave us the self imposed death penalty. He proceeded to bring in “his guys” who had more legal problems than the ones he kicked off the team. Then he has the audacity to get mad at MSU for firing his ass. I have zero respect for him and if we ever honor him at MSU it is a mistake.

[Dawg61]

Fact: Croom was a horrible SEC head coach. End thread/

[Commercecomet24]

The goal line play vs LSU at the end of the game in Mullen?s first year wasn?t a jump pass. We ran an option and Tyson (Henig wasn?t the QB) decided to keep instead of pitching to Dixon. I still believe Dixon scores easily, Tyson just made the wrong decision. The play call was there for a score and win.

We did run a jump pass in that series at the end of the game on the goal line. The ball was knocked away by that LSU safety that also played on the baseball team, chad something. Tyson Lee was the qb.

[MetEdDawg]

1) Fletcher Cox
2) Gabe Jackson
3)KJ Wright
4) Boobie
5) Johnathan Banks
6) Derek Pegues
7) Derek Sherrod
8) Pernell McPhee
9) Charles Mitchell
10) Jamar Chaney
11) Kyle Love
12) Deontae Skinner
13) Nickoe Whitley

I wouldn?t really call that list terrible when the top 3 guys are three of the highest paid players in the NFL, an additional two are still playing, and 11 of the 13 played in the NFL. As I said in the post above, Anthony Johnson and Mike Brown were sure fire NFL picks. Yes the on field results absolutely sucked and yes I was pissed when he ran off Nick Turner and Darren Williams, but you have to give him a little more credit. He is also the last coach to beat Bama for us and did it in twice.


He never coached Fletcher Cox or McPhee. So sure if you want to parse words like that, but let's not give him more credit on those. Still not a guarantee they sign with us with Croom as the head coach because Saban came after Cox hard. Hell, Croom wasn't even the head coach when they signed the dotted line on signing day.

Folks giving him credit for beating Bama are hilarious in grasping straws. Bama then isn't anything like Bama now. It's insane to even make that as a positive. If you added the win total of those 2 Bama teams Croom beat together, I believe 6 Bama teams since then have gotten that many wins or more in 1 season. So can we dispense with the garbage of "beating Bama" without providing the necessary context. Which was a bigger impact on our program, beating Bama or losing to Maine? I'll hang up and listen.

[msudawg1200]

Ask some of his former players what they think about Croom. I?ve heard a few of them say they couldn?t stand him and his arrogance.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Croom's job was to be a head coach. I saw nothing to indicate that he could do that job effectively. He was a failure. An absolute terrible hire.

One of my favorites is when he was asked about the small number of wideouts on the roster. He responded that it was no big deal because "I can find a wideout on every street corner in Miami." But he never visited those street corners and got them apparently, because when Mullen showed up, he mentioned how he didn't have enough bodies at wideout to even practice. He had to play Cam Lawrence (early entry from high school) at wideout in the spring to have enough bodies to run drills.

Croom may have been a great assistant head coach. But as a head coach, he was just terrible.

[BankerDog]

He never coached Fletcher Cox or McPhee. So sure if you want to parse words like that, but let's not give him more credit on those. Still not a guarantee they sign with us with Croom as the head coach because Saban came after Cox hard. Hell, Croom wasn't even the head coach when they signed the dotted line on signing day.

Folks giving him credit for beating Bama are hilarious in grasping straws. Bama then isn't anything like Bama now. It's insane to even make that as a positive. If you added the win total of those 2 Bama teams Croom beat together, I believe 6 Bama teams since then have gotten that many wins or more in 1 season. So can we dispense with the garbage of "beating Bama" without providing the necessary context. Which was a bigger impact on our program, beating Bama or losing to Maine? I'll hang up and listen.

You didn?t say the players he coached, you said his top 10 recruits. Those are recruits.

All I said was he was the last coach to beat Bama. They weren?t as good then as they are now, yes but it still hasn?t been done with our ?best teams ever?. But hey Mullen also lost to South AL at home with more talent and still never beat Bama. I?m not arguing Croom was some incredible coach, but he you have to give him credit for a few things.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Croom is the worst coach in the history of MSU football. This idea that he “cleaned up the program” is a joke and a crutch that people use to try and make his tenure look better than it was. He kicked off half the team because he is a complete idiot. That was completely unnecessary. He gave us the self imposed death penalty. He proceeded to bring in “his guys” who had more legal problems than the ones he kicked off the team. Then he has the audacity to get mad at MSU for firing his ass. I have zero respect for him and if we ever honor him at MSU it is a mistake.

THIS. Croom was a great dude, but an absolutely terrible head coach.

[MetEdDawg]

You didn?t say the players he coached, you said his top 10 recruits. Those are recruits.

All I said was he was the last coach to beat Bama. They weren?t as good then as they are now, yes but it still hasn?t been done with our ?best teams ever?. I?m not arguing Croom was some incredible coach, but he you have to give him credit for a few things.

He recruited them yes, but he didn't sign them. Mullen did. So they don't count because we all know that Croom very easily could have lost one or both of them had he stayed. No guarantee he keeps them at all.

I just don't see how we can give him credit when the SEC straight up boat raced us during his tenure. Sure he got a couple good players. EVERY coach in the SEC got some good players while they were there. I just don't see how we can credit him for doing anything to progress our program. What were we better at when Croom left than when he got there?

[BankerDog]

He recruited them yes, but he didn't sign them. Mullen did. So they don't count because we all know that Croom very easily could have lost one or both of them had he stayed. No guarantee he keeps them at all.

I just don't see how we can give him credit when the SEC straight up boat raced us during his tenure. Sure he got a couple good players. EVERY coach in the SEC got some good players while they were there. I just don't see how we can credit him for doing anything to progress our program. What were we better at when Croom left than when he got there?

Again, you said list out his top 10 recruits. I did and it?s a pretty impressive group.

[thf24]

Again, you said list out his top 10 recruits. I did and it?s a pretty impressive group.

Like MetEd already said, you're going to get some good players simply by playing in the SEC. What that list says to me more than anything is that, in hindsight, he couldn't recruit for shit on offense. The way I see it that could be explained one of two ways (or a combination of both): 1. his over-complicated, outdated, boring offense couldn't attract enough good players, or 2.) his over-complicated, outdated, boring offense was unable to utilize and showcase the offensive talent he did have.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

Like MetEd already said, you're going to get some good players simply by playing in the SEC. What that list says to me more than anything is that, in hindsight, he couldn't recruit for shit on offense. The way I see it that could be explained one of two ways (or a combination of both): 1. his over-complicated, outdated, boring offense couldn't attract enough good players, or 2.) his over-complicated, outdated, boring offense was unable to utilize and showcase the offensive talent he did have.

I truly wish I could have seen Omar Conner and Jerious Norwood in Mullen's offense. It would have been a lot of fun.

[MetEdDawg]

Again, you said list out his top 10 recruits. I did and it?s a pretty impressive group.

So if I list the Top 10 guys Mullen attempted to get on campus that counts right?

You know what I meant. Of course it's Top 10 guys that signed and made it to campus. Mullen recruited Cam Newton. So let's count him toward Mullen's count. See how little sense that makes?

His Top 10 list of kids that made it to campus while he was head coach is not that impressive. Yes there are good kids on there. There's supposed to be. But you compare that lis to every other schools list during that same time and it won't turn out in our favor.

It's not a super impressive list when multiple people in your Top 10 were out of the NFL completely in less than 3 years.

[gravedigger]

I 100% believe we had a man of integrity that set the strong foundation for the next man to build up MSU right. You might disagree, and that is ok. Makes the world go around. But I believe he cleaned up a lot of things and started the righting of the ship.


https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.msstate.edu%2Fsites%2Fwww.mss tate.edu%2Ffiles%2F11-26-2005.jpg&f=1

To sum this up: the NCAA decided to pound us ultimately for hiring Jackie Sherrill. So they did with a 3 year investigation that buried us no matter the penalties. To keep the penalties mitigated, we hired a decent man and the SECs first black head coach. It worked. The penalties were not in line with the length of the investigation. He was also not ready to run a program starting in that condition, but he did the best he could and did in fact build team cohesion.

You aren?t going to get many message board fans to praise his work. That said, Its long past time State fans let it go with bashing the man. I question whether anyone could have recovered our program in under 5 years.

[BankerDog]

So if I list the Top 10 guys Mullen attempted to get on campus that counts right?

You know what I meant. Of course it's Top 10 guys that signed and made it to campus. Mullen recruited Cam Newton. So let's count him toward Mullen's count. See how little sense that makes?

His Top 10 list of kids that made it to campus while he was head coach is not that impressive. Yes there are good kids on there. There's supposed to be. But you compare that lis to every other schools list during that same time and it won't turn out in our favor.

It's not a super impressive list when multiple people in your Top 10 were out of the NFL completely in less than 3 years.

Yeah..but I gave you guys he recruited and committed that made it to campus. Outside of Cox, Banks, and McPhee he coached all of those guys. So now you?re backing off what you initially said.
The average NFL career is 3 years..just saying.

Look the guy wasn?t a world beater, his problem was more then recruiting. I?m not saying build a statue for the man. He started playing the recruiting game way too late. His misses with Tes Ginn, LaMichael James, Suh, McNeil, Cam Newton the first time, and countless others were inexcusable. Had he adapted his offense to a spread with Omar Conner and Norwood things may have turned out different for him.

[Dawg61]

Searching for "great dude" evidence

https://media.giphy.com/media/zQ3pFTXU7LC92/giphy.gif

[Coach007]

Also HENIG wasn't the QB against LSU under Dan. The Croom Error was almost as awful as the Shria Error. If the Slytanic was worth a shit why has He never been more than RB coach since? Because, he hasn't not a clue how to be a head Coach. If you remember he removed Omarr and replaced Him with HENIG. He ****ing punted from the other teams 35 yard line. He lost to Maine and then said they had a better team. His clock management was a clinic for how not to manage the clock. He lost to Tulane after Katrina decimated them. He benched a great kicker and replaced with one that couldn't kick a 35 Yarder. We had 5 turn over from Ga. and still lost, because instead of kicking a winning FG, he let HENIG, TRY A STUPID PASS. AND GOT SACKED. I could go on and on, like Croom not taking all His in home visits. 007 your stance on ole Sly has stomped a mud hole in any credibility you had.

No.. I will say it again. This thread is not about his record. This thread is not "Croom was a great HC". Learn to differentiate in what's being said.

[Coach007]

Boy so true. SEC and PF hated JWS because he was a threat to make MSU a year end, year out contender. JWS started to own Bama and others and they were all upset at Jackie.

JWS's last 3 years, were horrible and resulted in MSU on probation. Never won more than 3 games. His last year we won only 2.

We lost to:

2003:
Tulane
Houston
Did not win a single SEC game

2002:

Lost every SEC game.

2001:

Lost to TROY St At HOME COMING


Again, this thread is about what Croom did right. Not him as a HC.

[Coach007]

AN unexpected loss? As in, one? Croom routinely lost to teams we had no business losing to.
2004 - Maine, UAB, Vanderbilt
2005 - Houston
2006 - Tulane
2007 - no embarrassing losses but kept trotting Henig out vs. LSU to the tune of 5 ints.
2008 - La Tech

In comparison, Mullen had what I consider two bad losses over his career:
2009 - Houston
2016 - USA

And yeah, I'll give Croom credit for sometimes beating teams we weren't supposed to beat, but at the end of the day that's even WORSE. How do you knock off a ranked Florida team yet LOSE to Maine, Vanderbilt, and UAB in the same year? A decent coach would have had his team prepared to win at least two of those, and a good coach would have had his team ready to win all three. We lost out on bowl bids because Croom didn't know what the Hell he was doing.

But he always had an excuse. No talent? He inherited plenty of it. He just didn't know how to coach it.

He inherited no such thing. That talent had spent 3 years only winning 3, 3, and 2 games. He inherited a program that had been allowed to run amok. The Alumni was pissed at the player issues and lack of control that landed us on a 4 year probation.

That is the facts of what he inherited. He inherited A parade AA who counterfeited money before he got there. He gave that player another chance, and the player didn't take it. So he dismissed his Top RB.

[Dawg61]

Again, this thread is about what Croom did right. Not him as a HC.

What are you trying to separate here? Everything he did while he was at State was as a head coach. He was a terrible head coach. Therefore almost everything he did was indeed terrible. He signed some good players. He gave a nice welcoming speech. He had a couple of good upsets. He didn't get us into more trouble with the NCAA and he left the cupboard decently stocked at a few positions for Mullen. If you're looking for more positive things to say about Croom than what I just listed you're gonna be waiting in your "Croom is Great" bunker for a very long time.

[Dawg61]

Before you continue to shit all over Jackie just remember his wife was battling cancer at the same exact time our program bottomed out.

[Coach007]

He never coached Fletcher Cox or McPhee. So sure if you want to parse words like that, but let's not give him more credit on those. Still not a guarantee they sign with us with Croom as the head coach because Saban came after Cox hard. Hell, Croom wasn't even the head coach when they signed the dotted line on signing day.

Folks giving him credit for beating Bama are hilarious in grasping straws. Bama then isn't anything like Bama now. It's insane to even make that as a positive. If you added the win total of those 2 Bama teams Croom beat together, I believe 6 Bama teams since then have gotten that many wins or more in 1 season. So can we dispense with the garbage of "beating Bama" without providing the necessary context. Which was a bigger impact on our program, beating Bama or losing to Maine? I'll hang up and listen.

He also coached one of the best RBs in MSU history. He went pro too. Norwood.

Fact for you. JWS was losing to Bama for 3 years or more prior. THose were also during the dark ages for Bama. 2001, Bama won 4 sec games only. 2003 they only won 2 SEC games. And MS ST was NOT beating them then.

So again... Yes, Bama had a poor decade.. 2 Coaches during that time had a chance to set beating them in motion. Only Croom beat them.

I just read where Croom inherited the best talent etc... YET during Bama dark years, JWS could not take that talent and win?? But Croom could? Can't have it both ways.

So once again.. a team with player issues to the point that the alumni was pissed. Put us on Probation. 4 of Crooms 5 years was under probation.

Mississippi State's football program was placed on probation by the NCAA for four years, stripped of eight scholarships over the next two seasons. allowed just 81 football scholarships for the 2005 and 2006 seasons, and are limited to 45 expense-paid recruiting visits in each of the 2004-05 and 2005-06 academic years
-- 11 per year fewer than the maximum allowed by the NCAA. JWS had Ms ST considered a repeat offender because the school also lost 13 scholarships after an investigation in 1996.

There was a massive cloud over Ms St at that time. So yeah, recruiting was bad... But he still managed to get better classes than the previous year. And when that cloud/reductions/visits was lifted.... The recruiting got better.

[Coach007]

To sum this up: the NCAA decided to pound us ultimately for hiring Jackie Sherrill. So they did with a 3 year investigation that buried us no matter the penalties. To keep the penalties mitigated, we hired a decent man and the SECs first black head coach. It worked. The penalties were not in line with the length of the investigation. He was also not ready to run a program starting in that condition, but he did the best he could and did in fact build team cohesion.

You aren?t going to get many message board fans to praise his work. That said, Its long past time State fans let it go with bashing the man. I question whether anyone could have recovered our program in under 5 years.

That's correct. And few people were going to come in and take the reins of a team that had a total of 8 wins in 3 season with 2 of those being SEC wins that had the NCAA going all out on them. It wasn't a winning program and the NCAA was hammer it.

[Coach007]

Before you continue to shit all over Jackie just remember his wife was battling cancer at the same exact time our program bottomed out.

I get it. Not saying anything other than what Croom walked into regardless the situation. JWS saw our University get hammered as a repeat offender.

[Dawg61]

I get it. Not saying anything other than what Croom walked into regardless the situation. JWS saw our University get hammered as a repeat offender.

True but the NCAA was also out to get Sherrill. They couldn't of given two shits about Croom or what he did while here. Not saying we should have but if we were ever gonna cheat our asses off the best time was probably under Croom since once we hired him the NCAA immediately went sniffing elsewhere.

[Coach007]

True but the NCAA was also out to get Sherrill.


That doesn't really have a part of the conversation and I hope he wins in court. The only thing that pertains to this conversation is where we were and how Croom gets credit for guiding through those years.



but if we were ever gonna cheat our asses off the best time was probably under Croom since once we hired him the NCAA immediately went sniffing elsewhere.


We were repeat offenders.. that was our status and you wanted us to cheat? SERIOUSLY?

[Goldendawg]

Before you continue to shit all over Jackie just remember his wife was battling cancer at the same exact time our program bottomed out.

He was also being harassed by the NCAA/Ole Miss witch hunt for his last 2 or 3 years which made it very difficult to sign HS players for the long term (remember the approx 22 JC players in one class disaster) or keep asst coaches ( last year or so was a halfway house for over the hill ex- head coaches.). BTW, Jackie was never implicated directly in any of the violations.

Croom was a dud. Blamed all his failures on someone else. Again, why did bama not hire him when they had the opening? Answer, they knew he was not head coach material. So did the NFL, career RB coach, before and after his time at State.

[Goldendawg]

That doesn't really have a part of the conversation and I hope he wins in court. The only thing that pertains to this conversation is where we were and how Croom gets credit for guiding through those years.



We were repeat offenders.. that was our status and you wanted us to cheat? SERIOUSLY?

Anyone who fell asleep on a recruit's sofa during a visit probably couldn't have stayed awake long enough to introduce the bagman!*****

[Dawg61]

\We were repeat offenders.. that was our status and you wanted us to cheat? SERIOUSLY?

You can't read apparently cause I literally said "not saying we should have". The point is that the NCAA wasn't paying any attention to Croom so he coulda gotten away with murder if he wanted to. To praise him for not getting us in NCAA trouble while the NCAA doesn't give a 17 what he does is dumb praise.

[msudawg1200]

JWS's last 3 years, were horrible and resulted in MSU on probation. Never won more than 3 games. His last year we won only 2.

We lost to:

2003:
Tulane
Houston
Did not win a single SEC game

2002:

Lost every SEC game.

2001:

Lost to TROY St At HOME COMING


Again, this thread is about what Croom did right. Not him as a HC.

Not to nitpick, but we did win a SEC game in 2003 over Jay Cutler and Vandy 30-21. I was there.

[tcdog70]

No.. I will say it again. This thread is not about his record. This thread is not "Croom was a great HC". Learn to differentiate in what's being said.

What? Differentiate what is being said.. Dude what is being said is your are a dumbass for thinking that Sly did jackshit anything but take millions for not a damn thing but bringing embarrassment to MSU.

[R2Dawg]

He also coached one of the best RBs in MSU history. He went pro too. Norwood.

Fact for you. JWS was losing to Bama for 3 years or more prior. THose were also during the dark ages for Bama. 2001, Bama won 4 sec games only. 2003 they only won 2 SEC games. And MS ST was NOT beating them then.

So again... Yes, Bama had a poor decade.. 2 Coaches during that time had a chance to set beating them in motion. Only Croom beat them.

I just read where Croom inherited the best talent etc... YET during Bama dark years, JWS could not take that talent and win?? But Croom could? Can't have it both ways.

So once again.. a team with player issues to the point that the alumni was pissed. Put us on Probation. 4 of Crooms 5 years was under probation.

Mississippi State's football program was placed on probation by the NCAA for four years, stripped of eight scholarships over the next two seasons. allowed just 81 football scholarships for the 2005 and 2006 seasons, and are limited to 45 expense-paid recruiting visits in each of the 2004-05 and 2005-06 academic years
-- 11 per year fewer than the maximum allowed by the NCAA. JWS had Ms ST considered a repeat offender because the school also lost 13 scholarships after an investigation in 1996.

There was a massive cloud over Ms St at that time. So yeah, recruiting was bad... But he still managed to get better classes than the previous year. And when that cloud/reductions/visits was lifted.... The recruiting got better.

JWS beat some good Bama teams and Bama was up and down back then; he beat some ranked Bama teams and Bama won SEC in 1999. Yes they tanked at end of JWS years and during Croom years. JWS had a very, very talented freshman class that he left Croom - fact. As others mentioned, JWS had a wife battling cancer and had to take his brother off life support in those final years. He also had a bad JUCO group as well as some real bad assist coaches at the end did JWS in. JWS didn't have great talent on D.

The NCAA had an ax to grind; what was so bad that MSU did to deserve a 4 year punishment? Compared to outright cheating today, they owe us an apology and 10-15 scholarships on top of 85 today for the junk going on at other schools who get a free ride - Auburn, LSU, Bama, OleMiss, etc.

[Hot Rock]

I have no clue what makes anyone say he is a good man. He was lazy, took millions to do a job poorly and then blamed anyone but himself when fired. I will admit I don’t know him personally but show me evidence he was good. I have not seen any to date. He still is bitter for getting fired for doing a horrible job and does not understand that he sucked as a head coach.

I supported him when he was our coach but he lost me at 3-2

[Coach007]

What? Differentiate what is being said.. Dude what is being said is your are a dumbass for thinking that Sly did jackshit anything but take millions for not a damn thing but bringing embarrassment to MSU.

The embarrassment were the things done that made us a repeat offender and put our program in the gutter. It's dumb for you to think otherwise.

[Hot Rock]

I have no clue what makes anyone say he is a good man. He was lazy, took millions to do a job poorly and then blamed anyone but himself when fired. I will admit I don’t know him personally but show me evidence he was good. I have not seen any to date. He still is bitter for getting fired for doing a horrible job and does not understand that he sucked as a head coach.

I supported him when he was our coach but he lost me at 3-2

[Coach007]

JWS had a very, very talented freshman class that he left Croom - fact.

A class does not make a team. You should know that from looking at the Mullen years. NEVER THE LESS JWS HAD THOSE 2 CLASSES for 2 years and won 5 games with them.


He also had a bad JUCO group as well as some real bad assist coaches at the end did JWS in. JWS didn't have great talent on D.



Wait, so we praise JWS (who is solely responsible for our repeat offender status) for having bad coaches, but knock Croom over it? We bash Croom over it being hard to recruit during the 4 years Ms ST was on probation with loss of post season play, scholarships, and visits but it's excusable for JWS?




what was so bad that MSU did to deserve a 4 year punishment?


I understand, but what does that have to do with the cloud that Croom stepped into?



Compared to outright cheating today, they owe us an apology and 10-15 scholarships on top of 85 today for the junk going on at other schools who get a free ride - Auburn, LSU, Bama, OleMiss, etc.


I can get on board with that.

[timotheus]

croom was a breath of fresh air cuz it was something new for a period. thats it he sucked

[R2Dawg]

A class does not make a team. You should know that from looking at the Mullen years. NEVER THE LESS JWS HAD THOSE 2 CLASSES for 2 years and won 5 games with them.

Never said a class made a team, you are mixing my comments with others. But to say he had no talent as some have said is not true. Many parade all americans in that freshmen class that JWS left Croom, not as good as what Joe walked into for sure. No one is saying Croom had an easy job the first year or even two but the program ran off the cliff under his watch - 5 years of it. Greg Byrne was the best thing to happen to MSU when he came. He would not accept failure and demanded accountability. Crooms response on the special says it all. He didn't get enough time. He has no clue about coaching big time NCAA football. He had 5 years and hadn't improved anything.

JWS and Mullen both took what little talent they inherited from previous coaches and competed instantly. History speaks for it self.


Wait, so we praise JWS (who is solely responsible for our repeat offender status) for having bad coaches, but knock Croom over it? We bash Croom over it being hard to recruit during the 4 years Ms ST was on probation with loss of post season play, scholarships, and visits but it's excusable for JWS?

Who said we praised JWS for the last coaching hires? JWS had been at MSU for over a decade of success and winning. hard to keep it going and not have a bad hire or two. A lot of bad things happened at the same time in the end. Croom on the other hand stood by bad assistants and did not change one thing in 5 years. Apples and oranges.


I understand, but what does that have to do with the cloud that Croom stepped into? Everything because you were blaming JWS for it, For most teams what we did would not even get investigated much less any penalties. JWS got penalized because he was winning at MSU and it was an easy way to get him back. JWS had been at another big school, nothing would have happened.



I can get on board with that.

Great we agree on something.

[Goldendawg]

I have no clue what makes anyone say he is a good man. He was lazy, took millions to do a job poorly and then blamed anyone but himself when fired. I will admit I don’t know him personally but show me evidence he was good. I have not seen any to date. He still is bitter for getting fired for doing a horrible job and does not understand that he sucked as a head coach.

I supported him when he was our coach but he lost me at 3-2

This also, 3-2. Worse college game I have seen in 50 plus years at State! BTW, how many of you permanent officers of the Sly Croom Fan Club would hire he and Woody again? Again, why did bama, his alma mater, who actually had a spring practice award named after him, not hire him?

[gravedigger]

Deleted

[tcdog70]

The embarrassment were the things done that made us a repeat offender and put our program in the gutter. It's dumb for you to think otherwise.

Wait, you are off subject. We are talking about the Slytanic. Being on probation would be better than 5 years under Croom.
Your post was about Croom not Jackie. If you notice you are alone in your opinion about Sly. I guess everyone is the dumbass?/ wrong!

[Coach007]

Wait, you are off subject. We are talking about the Slytanic. Being on probation would be better than 5 years under Croom.


4 out of Crooms 5 years were under probation.



If you notice you are alone in your opinion about Sly.


Actually, I'm not. Plenty of people agree that he handled the player issues and that the recruiting picked up when probation came to an end. Everybody agrees he was not a great head coach.

[KentuckyDawg13]

Croom was MSU's NCAA punishment.

[TrapGame]

Croom was MSU's NCAA punishment.

We got the death penalty by committing suicide.

I watched the 2007 Egg Bowl last night on SECN. That was a comedy. We were so inept. We had no business beating OM. Thanks to Coach O going for it on 4th and 1 at mid field with 9 minutes left in the game we were able to claw back and win. He opts to kick it deep I doubt we come back.

And Anthony Dixon was a completely different RB under Mullen for 1 year. Croom was supposedly an NFL RB coach.

[NCDawg]

We got the death penalty by committing suicide.

I watched the 2007 Egg Bowl last night on SECN. That was a comedy. We were so inept. We had no business beating OM. Thanks to Coach O going for it on 4th and 1 at mid field with 9 minutes left in the game we were able to claw back and win. He opts to kick it deep I doubt we come back.

And Anthony Dixon was a completely different RB under Mullen for 1 year. Croom was supposedly an NFL RB coach.

I watched the game, too. You are correct that we had no business winning that game. Ole Miss had the best team, and had they punted on 4th and I from midfield, I have no doubt they would have won. Orgeron deserved to be fired after that game.

[I seen it dawg]

While i applaud the enthusiasm in this thread i have to wonder where in the Sam hell it came from? Why dig up this coffin

[BuckyIsAB****]

Parade All-American running back at Washington High who went on to lead Mississippi State University in rushing. ABOVE Norwood. Same class. Norwood finished second on the team with 66 rushes for 394 yards. Turner led the team and ranked second in the Southeastern Conference in all-purpose yardage with 138.7 per game in 2003. Turner led the Bulldogs with 745 rushing yards and seven touchdowns in 2003..... Norwood finished the season with 121 carries for 642 yards and two touchdowns.

So yes. He dismissed our TOP Running back.

Im sorry but if you think Nick Turner was better than Jerious Norwood you have never seen Jerious Norwood play in person. If he goes to LSU or anywhere else he wins the heisman trophy.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Here are the facts:

1. Croom had twice as many players arrested in 5 years as Jackie Wayne did in 13.
2. Croom fell asleep on a recruit's couch
3. Croom lost his job because he would not fire his OC who ran exactly what Croom wanted him to run on offense
4. Croom said he would retire before changing to a Spread Offense (but instead made The Ninja fire him)
5. Croom said he saw on film Maine had as good or better talent than we had
6. Croom said the reason we were losing in 2008 was because the D wasnt scoring as much as they did in 2007
7. Croom said he didnt care if we didnt gain a yard- he was going to line-up and run right at LSU (Nick Saban)
8. Croom rejected Jackie's offer to help him transition at State
9. Croom made Omar Conner- who was built for the Spread- make a thousand reads at QB
10. Croom was a terrible HC period. Some of his former assts still laugh at him and the shit he did. Hearing one of them tell the falling asleep on the couch story while laughing so hard they can barely finish it tells you everything you need to know his time in Sville.

Omarr Conner running the spread would have been hellacious

[BuckyIsAB****]

Except for Dixon and Derek Peguess, I don?t recall a single player from that ?07 team. Odd.

And, yes, I absolutely blame Jackie for 2001-2003, and I blame Dan for 2016. Jackie had mailed it in by then, and Dan handled the locker room about as poorly as he could?ve to start that season. I don?t just blame Croom for his mistakes.

D'Mon Glanton, Dominic Douglas, Titus Brown, Christian Ducre, Anthony Johnson, Tony Burks, Kyle Love, Tim Bailey, Anthony Strauder, Jamayel Smith, Lance Long, Avery Hannibal, Jamar Cheney, Gabe O'Neal, Keith Fitzhugh, DeMario Bobo, Zach Smith.

That 2007 team was the first one that went bowling for me when I was a kid so I probably remember quite a few more than others haha. It was tough times at school during those days. Thank God we beat OM in 2005 bc it was awful from 02-04 with the OM kids at school

[BuckyIsAB****]

Didn't Anthony Johnson get kicked off the team over the gunfight on campus and go to Jackson State? Correct me if I am wrong. Jackie's last couple of years were a total disaster, but I don't remember a gunfight by players on campus.

Idk if he got kicked off or not but he did go to JSU. He is a referee now. I met him at a semi pro game a while back and talked to him. And its not your post but KJ Wright wasnt on the 07 team FWIW

[BuckyIsAB****]

Someone name the 10 best recruits in the Croom Error and look at how terrible it is.

He didn't recruit, he didn't push facilities improvement, and during his 5 years is when we missed the push the SEC made into the power position it holds today.

We are suffering in SEC mediocrity partially because of him. Problem is that we may never get out of the hole that period of time dug us into.

And yes he straight up didn't get hired at Bama because he was black. Numerous accounts of folks saying they were afraid the fan base wouldn't accept him even though he played and was groomed under Bear

I guess Auburn and over half the league is suffering in SEC mediocrity to then bc we have the same exact record as they do. And a better SEC record than a lot of other teams in this league. 9 year bowl streak, there a quite a few other teams in this conference that wish they had that.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

I watched the game, too. You are correct that we had no business winning that game. Ole Miss had the best team, and had they punted on 4th and I from midfield, I have no doubt they would have won. Orgeron deserved to be fired after that game.

All of this is correct.

And you are right. They did have the better team, and they were 0-7 in the conference. We sucked in 07

[Pollodawg]

Omarr Conner running the spread would have been hellacious

I would’ve loved to have seen Connor in Dan’s system.

[BuckyIsAB****]

All of this is correct.

And you are right. They did have the better team, and they were 0-7 in the conference. We sucked in 07

Yall are forgetting the biggest win of the Croom era....we knocked off 13th ranked Vandy in 2008

[BuckyIsAB****]

All of this is correct.

And you are right. They did have the better team, and they were 0-7 in the conference. We sucked in 07

The defense was good all around. The defense was pretty good in 06 but had to carry an abysmal offense that year and in 07. At no point during Croom's time at State was the offense ever even close to being competent. That year we just didnt turn it over and our defense was pretty good

[Goldendawg]

While i applaud the enthusiasm in this thread i have to wonder where in the Sam hell it came from? Why dig up this coffin

I am thinking of starting a new thread, "Giving Shira Credit". What do you older dawgs think? I was a boy, but those were some rough years. He won SEC Coach of the Year for going 6-5 one year I think. May have been his only winning season, like someone else we have been talking about. Hail State!

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Im sorry but if you think Nick Turner was better than Jerious Norwood you have never seen Jerious Norwood play in person. If he goes to LSU or anywhere else he wins the heisman trophy.

This Heisman trophy argument is ridiculous. But I did love Norwood.

If he goes to LSU or anywhere else he wins the heisman trophy. So he wins it at Southern Miss or Ole Miss? He wins it at Tulane or Kansas? I'm not buying it.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

The defense was good all around. The defense was pretty good in 06 but had to carry an abysmal offense that year and in 07. At no point during Croom's time at State was the offense ever even close to being competent. That year we just didnt turn it over and our defense was pretty good

I agree. The D was pretty good in 07'. They weren't as good as the D's in 14,17,18 but they made plays at timely moments. You are right about the offense though. Go back and look at some of those box scores in the games we won. They are laughable. Croom also won coach of the year by going 7-5. What a joke

[Goldendawg]

A few coaches got fired for losing to State teams under him, was called "getting croomed". It wasn't much of a compliment for our upsets. I also remember his and Willie's "West Coast Offense". If it was 3rd and 5 or so, we ran a pass at the line of scrimmage or maybe the RB or WR ran a 2 or 3 and out pattern. It was then the responsibility of said receiver to break the tackle and get YAC for the 1st down. This VERY seldom worked.

[BuckyIsAB****]

This Heisman trophy argument is ridiculous. But I did love Norwood.

If he goes to LSU or anywhere else he wins the heisman trophy. So he wins it at Southern Miss or Ole Miss? He wins it at Tulane or Kansas? I'm not buying it.

Ok smartass you knew what I meant. Anywhere like LSU at that time

[Coach007]

Im sorry but if you think Nick Turner was better than Jerious Norwood you have never seen Jerious Norwood play in person. If he goes to LSU or anywhere else he wins the heisman trophy.

I never stated he was better. I stated he was our leading and top rusher. That's not really debated considering the yards.

[CadaverDawg]

F Croom

Everybody in the SEC loved Croom, because you always love an opponent that isn't a threat.

[BeardoMSU]

F Croom

Everybody in the SEC loved Croom, because you always love an opponent that isn't a threat.

https://media.giphy.com/media/7uzjPDyJTOMZW/giphy.gif

[CadaverDawg]

https://media.giphy.com/media/7uzjPDyJTOMZW/giphy.gif

You always know when to throw my favorite gif out.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/rMAs5XEGZmH3W/giphy.gif

[was21]

B------t...that is all

[bulldawg28]

Im sorry but if you think Nick Turner was better than Jerious Norwood you have never seen Jerious Norwood play in person. If he goes to LSU or anywhere else he wins the heisman trophy.

I played with them both and Nick Turner was better than Jerious Norwood. Ask any defensive teammate.

[R2Dawg]

I played with them both and Nick Turner was better than Jerious Norwood. Ask any defensive teammate.

Who is better is somewhat subjective and individual opinion but other teams D says something a little different based on performance. Turner was good and better top end speed but explosive bursts, Norwood as good as any that has ever played.

[R2Dawg]

I agree. The D was pretty good in 07'. They weren't as good as the D's in 14,17,18 but they made plays at timely moments. You are right about the offense though. Go back and look at some of those box scores in the games we won. They are laughable. Croom also won coach of the year by going 7-5. What a joke

And Offense was his specialty; never forget the 0-0 spring game; that said it all.

[The Federalist Engineer]

F Croom

Everybody in the SEC loved Croom, because you always love an opponent that isn't a threat.

Biggest mistake OM made was blowing Croom out too hard in 2008.

They should have shaved some points make it closer to keep us in the dark ages for another year. But Houston Nutt was probably eager to make a big splash.

[BuckyIsAB****]

I played with them both and Nick Turner was better than Jerious Norwood. Ask any defensive teammate.

I dont mean to be down on Nick Turner because I think he has passed but Norwood was a much better RB IMO. Better vision and tougher

[BuckyIsAB****]

I never stated he was better. I stated he was our leading and top rusher. That's not really debated considering the yards.

Ok you can have Norwood's freshmen year. After that its not close

[bulldawg28]

I dont mean to be down on Nick Turner because I think he has passed but Norwood was a much better RB IMO. Better vision and tougher

Absolutely not. Norwood was nowhere near elusive as Turner nor harder to tackle. Turner was even a step faster as well.

[Goldendawg]

I dont mean to be down on Nick Turner because I think he has passed but Norwood was a much better RB IMO. Better vision and tougher

I think Turner was murdered in Atlanta. Remember his family at games in jerseys that touted "Quick Nick".

[BiscuitEater]

Yes.. He was stubborn.

Had one good year in 5, BUT, thought he should be given 'more time' after a 4-8 season, 3300 yards of TOTAL offense with a backfield that included Anthony Dixon, Christian Ducre and Robert Eliott.

[TrapGame]

Had one good year in 5, BUT, thought he should be given 'more time' after a 4-8 season, 3300 yards of TOTAL offense with a backfield that included Anthony Dixon, Christian Ducre and Robert Eliott.

But he was building it the right way.***

[BeardoMSU]

Had one good year in 5, BUT, thought he should be given 'more time' after a 4-8 season, 3300 yards of TOTAL offense with a backfield that included Anthony Dixon, Christian Ducre and Robert Eliott.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f5d7df38389486dff04769c54fb61cb8/tenor.gif?itemid=4360370

Seriously...what was the totality of his earnings at MSU, both as HC and his severance after termination? Because as far as I'm concerned, that's all the "credit" he deserves....everything else is revisionist history or flat out bull shit.

[sleepy dawg]

R. Ray > S. Croom

[BeardoMSU]

R. Ray > S. Croom
Yup...but where's his 8 page thread?**

[Johnson85]

Yup...but where's his 8 page thread?**

Rick Ray doesn't get an 8 page thread because it's really easy to say and hard to dispute that he (1) gave it his best, (2) didn't succeed, and (3) was gracious on the way out the door. You can get that done in one post. But when it comes to Croom, people don't necessarily agree that he gave it his best and since he wasn't gracious on the way out the door, people understandably feel compelled to point out his flaws when he gets praised.

[Coach007]

Ok you can have Norwood's freshmen year. After that its not close

Because Turner was sent packing.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Absolutely not. Norwood was nowhere near elusive as Turner nor harder to tackle. Turner was even a step faster as well.

Yea I disagree. I think a lot of NFL players would say the same thing. If thats the case then Turner could have been a Pro Bowl RB

[The Federalist Engineer]

A few coaches got fired for losing to State teams under him, was called "getting croomed". It wasn't much of a compliment for our upsets. I also remember his and Willie's "West Coast Offense". If it was 3rd and 5 or so, we ran a pass at the line of scrimmage or maybe the RB or WR ran a 2 or 3 and out pattern. It was then the responsibility of said receiver to break the tackle and get YAC for the 1st down. This VERY seldom worked.

Our offense was so bad it was really child abuse of Michael Henig and Tyson Lee. That last Croom Egg Bowl had 11 sacks and a horrific beating of our 5-8 QB - listed as 5-10.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Our offense was so bad it was really child abuse of Michael Henig and Tyson Lee. That last Croom Egg Bowl had 11 sacks and a horrific beating of our 5-8 QB - listed as 5-10.

The LSU game in 2004 was one of the worst ass whippings I have ever seen. I know we were bad but we looked like we couldnt beat Starkville Academy

[bulldawg28]

Yea I disagree. I think a lot of NFL players would say the same thing. If thats the case then Turner could have been a Pro Bowl RB

Nick had that type of talent. I won't go into the entirety of details but everyone there knows the truth. However, his last year there as a Sophomore he was second in the SEC in all purpose yards averaging 139 yds per game. He still holds the single season record at state for all purpose yards. He also has the MSU single game record of 344 all purpose yards in a game against Tennessee.

Nick had more rushing yards than Norwood and a higher average per attempt. He had 700 yards rushing that year splitting time. I recognize your a Brandon diehard fan that reps all things Brandon so I understand your bias. However, being there and statistically it was clear who was better.

[Goldendawg]

Our offense was so bad it was really child abuse of Michael Henig and Tyson Lee. That last Croom Egg Bowl had 11 sacks and a horrific beating of our 5-8 QB - listed as 5-10.

He put in a young Chris Relf toward the end and nearly got him killed in that game also. Chris went on to be an UM Killer. Hail Chris! Hail State!

[tcdog70]

The LSU game in 2004 was one of the worst ass whippings I have ever seen. I know we were bad but we looked like we couldnt beat Starkville Academy

he left omarr in after being killed at half-time--no reason to play him in the second half. We had I think vandy and UAB as our next 2 games--winnable with Omarr at QB--but Sly left Him in at LSU and Omarr kept getting killed and was finally hurt and couldn't play the next 2 games which we lost.

[BuckyIsAB****]

he left omarr in after being killed at half-time--no reason to play him in the second half. We had I think vandy and UAB as our next 2 games--winnable with Omarr at QB--but Sly left Him in at LSU and Omarr kept getting killed and was finally hurt and couldn't play the next 2 games which we lost.

It was an ass whipping of epic proportions

[BeardoMSU]

You always know when to throw my favorite gif out.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/rMAs5XEGZmH3W/giphy.gif

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3o7abERY79vph15FV6/source.gif

[Dawg61]

Because Turner was sent packing.

Because he passed multiple counterfeit $100's at Remington Hunt Club in the same night. Dude was taking fake hundreds and buying a dollar beer from the beer cart ladies to get $99 in change (probably didn't even bother to tip the girls) and he did it at about three different carts in the bar that same night. Not smart. He was a phenomenal football player and just as equally a phenomenal dumbass.

[R2Dawg]

The LSU game in 2004 was one of the worst ass whippings I have ever seen. I know we were bad but we looked like we couldnt beat Starkville Academy

Other than a Maine type loss that LSU game was the most embarrassing beat down I remember seeing.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Because he passed multiple counterfeit $100's at Remington Hunt Club in the same night. Dude was taking fake hundreds and buying a dollar beer from the beer cart ladies to get $99 in change (probably didn't even bother to tip the girls) and he did it at about three different carts in the bar that same night. Not smart. He was a phenomenal football player and just as equally a phenomenal dumbass.

He was murdered btw

[Goldendawg]

Some of you may have read the quotes, but there is a thread on SixpackSpeak from a writer from the Detroit Free Press who writes that Sly's one year as offensive coordinator for the Detroit Lions helped cause Barry Sanders to retire early in disgust. The writer's opinions on this are very clear when they could have hired many other competent OC's. We all know he was a career RB coach everywhere else in the NFL.

[Homedawg]

He was murdered btw

I'm pretty sure he's aware of that. I'm not sure what that has to do with the facts he presented. And yes, it's unfortunate he was murdered. It's also unfortunate he made the choices he made.

[Captain Falcon]

Fact: Jackie left a big mess and we would?ve been bad for 2-3 years after no matter who we hired.

Also a fact: In Year 5 under Croom we were only marginally better than when he walked in the door. Go back and watch the LA Tech, Auburn, Tennessee, and Ole Miss games from 2008 and see if you still have anything positive to say about the guy.

2007 was really enjoyable at the time just because of how bad things had been previously, and that season had some of my favorite MSU moments of my lifetime (I?m only 26), but everything else about the Croom era was a train wreck. We had discipline issues galore, the baffling coaching never stopped, you could bank on us losing to a C-USA team or worse every year, and it all ended with the most embarrassing Egg Bowl performance you could possibly imagine.

He lost to Maine within his first three games and got annihilated by Ole Miss in his final game. And it rarely got much better than that in between.

[msu15]

He was murdered btw

What does that have to do with anything?

[drunkernhelldawg]

Fact: Jackie left a big mess and we would?ve been bad for 2-3 years after no matter who we hired.

Also a fact: In Year 5 under Croom we were only marginally better than when he walked in the door. Go back and watch the LA Tech, Auburn, Tennessee, and Ole Miss games from 2008 and see if you still have anything positive to say about the guy.

2007 was really enjoyable at the time just because of how bad things had been previously, and that season had some of my favorite MSU moments of my lifetime (I?m only 26), but everything else about the Croom era was a train wreck. We had discipline issues galore, the baffling coaching never stopped, you could bank on us losing to a C-USA team or worse every year, and it all ended with the most embarrassing Egg Bowl performance you could possibly imagine.

He lost to Maine within his first three games and got annihilated by Ole Miss in his final game. And it rarely got much better than that in between.

Great post. I don't agree with all of it, but I love the factual basis.

That was the worst decade in my memory. It didn't start with Croom, whose 2007 season was the only winning season of the decade. As far as him only being marginally better, maybe. But a lot of factors go into a team's performance, especially in Football, the ultimate team game.

I'll always believe that part of the anti Croom sentiment started with the emphasis on race (the only color that matters). We'd have been a lot smarter to never even reference race, history or not.

[Johnson85]

Fact: Jackie left a big mess and we would?ve been bad for 2-3 years after no matter who we hired.

No, a solid coach probably gets us bowl eligible in 2004. We only needed to beat Maine, Vandy (who finished 2-9), and UAB to get to 6-5.

Then we also played Arkansas (who finished 5-6) and Ole Miss (who finished 4-7). We certainly had issues, but if the 2009 version of Mullen takes over in 2004, we are immediately bowl eligible (although not sure 6-5 gets you a bowl game in 2004).

The 2005 schedule was harder, but who knows what we look like with competent coaching starting in 2004.


Also a fact: In Year 5 under Croom we were only marginally better than when he walked in the door. Go back and watch the LA Tech, Auburn, Tennessee, and Ole Miss games from 2008 and see if you still have anything positive to say about the guy.

2007 was really enjoyable at the time just because of how bad things had been previously, and that season had some of my favorite MSU moments of my lifetime (I?m only 26), but everything else about the Croom era was a train wreck. We had discipline issues galore, the baffling coaching never stopped, you could bank on us losing to a C-USA team or worse every year, and it all ended with the most embarrassing Egg Bowl performance you could possibly imagine.

He lost to Maine within his first three games and got annihilated by Ole Miss in his final game. And it rarely got much better than that in between.

[drunkernhelldawg]

No, a solid coach probably gets us bowl eligible in 2004. We only needed to beat Maine, Vandy (who finished 2-9), and UAB to get to 6-5.

.

Of all the ridiculous ideas, this one is a star. The idea that Jackie left us in good shape after the three years he'd put us through is mythmaking at its most dishonest.

[Goldendawg]

He "coached" at least 4 of the worse losses I have ever watched in my 50 plus years of going to State games: #4 - LSU beatdown #3 Ole Miss - 48 - 0, "I didn't see that coming" #2 Remember the Maine and #1 that offensive of truly "offensive" displays - the 3-2 loss to Auburn, (worse game that I have ever watched). He also blamed his failures on everyone but himself in the ESPN 30 for 30. I rate him right down there with Larry "I won't speak to you, as you are beneath me" Templeton. Hail State, but never Croom or LT!

[R2Dawg]

Of all the ridiculous ideas, this one is a star. The idea that Jackie left us in good shape after the three years he'd put us through is mythmaking at its most dishonest.

Where in anyone's response has anyone said JWS left us in good shape?? No one has said that only that the players he left had some talent and with the low level of competition we played after that, a good coach could have gotten us bowl eligible is the point.

As others have posted, I liked some of the things Croom stood for but his lack of appreciation for MSU at the end for giving him 5 years is offensive considering the disaster he left our program. Some disagree but the mess Croom left is nothing compared to what JWS left. Mullen made us competitive just with coaching in year 1 with only sparse talent.

[Tbonewannabe]

Where in anyone's response has anyone said JWS left us in good shape?? No one has said that only that the players he left had some talent and with the low level of competition we played after that, a good coach could have gotten us bowl eligible is the point.

As others have posted, I liked some of the things Croom stood for but his lack of appreciation for MSU at the end for giving him 5 years is offensive considering the disaster he left our program. Some disagree but the mess Croom left is nothing compared to what JWS left. Mullen made us competitive just with coaching in year 1 with only sparse talent.

Between the people on the team and the people that were committed to Croom, there was a decent amount of NFL talent on the roster. That was one reason that Mullen was able to turn it around so quickly. It helps when you inherit a team with a 1st round LT and the leading rusher in MSU history. Any competent head coach could have got us to 6 wins Mullen's second year. Mullen however was a good coach and got us to 9 wins but the talent was there to go bowling.

[R2Dawg]

Between the people on the team and the people that were committed to Croom, there was a decent amount of NFL talent on the roster. That was one reason that Mullen was able to turn it around so quickly. It helps when you inherit a team with a 1st round LT and the leading rusher in MSU history. Any competent head coach could have got us to 6 wins Mullen's second year. Mullen however was a good coach and got us to 9 wins but the talent was there to go bowling.

Other than AD and a couple other players what great talent was on that first team Mullen had not a freshman or that actually played much his first year? Talent comment did not include freshmen as other than Cox, I don't remember any big impact freshmen. Cox wasn't all pro DT Cox his freshman year either - good for a freshman yes but I am talking about talent that played Dan's first year. Again other than freshman, Croom had the same talent the game before getting bounced 45-0 in egg bowl.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Can we lock this?

[Johnson85]

Of all the ridiculous ideas, this one is a star. The idea that Jackie left us in good shape after the three years he'd put us through is mythmaking at its most dishonest.

Which is probably why nobody has made that argument. We had what was possibly the easiest schedule we have played since I've been a fan. Everybody in the West was down except LSU and Auburn and then we got the two worst teams from the East. So we have 4 games we win with solid coaching in conference, then Bama and FLorida that we could be competitive with, before having Main, UAB, and Tulane for OOC wins. Just going chalk in the OOC and beating 3 of the 4 worst SEC teams gets us to 6-5. We could have pretty reasonably gone 7-4 without beating a decent team. If we played that type of schedule today, people would be living if we did worse than 9-2.

[Johnson85]

Between the people on the team and the people that were committed to Croom, there was a decent amount of NFL talent on the roster. That was one reason that Mullen was able to turn it around so quickly. It helps when you inherit a team with a 1st round LT and the leading rusher in MSU history. Any competent head coach could have got us to 6 wins Mullen's second year. Mullen however was a good coach and got us to 9 wins but the talent was there to go bowling.

This is selective memory. Croom left some really good pieces and a roster with some gigantic holes. Not everybody just any competent coach could have taken a team with Relf or a RS Tyler RUssell (who probably would have been the starter if we have any coach other than Mullen b/c Relf wouldn't have improved as much and we likely wouldn't have had an offense that made use of his strengths).

Ole Miss, UK, Florida, UGA, and @Houston we all games we could have lost with a competent coach. I think there's a pretty decent chance we would have lost UK, FLorida, UGA, and ole Miss. We likely wouldn't have lost them all

[Johnson85]

Other than AD and a couple other players what great talent was on that first team Mullen had not a freshman or that actually played much his first year? Talent comment did not include freshmen as other than Cox, I don't remember any big impact freshmen. Cox wasn't all pro DT Cox his freshman year either - good for a freshman yes but I am talking about talent that played Dan's first year. Again other than freshman, Croom had the same talent the game before getting bounced 45-0 in egg bowl.

Ignoring the freshmen, looking at the roster and going off memory:
Charles Mitchell was a good safety.
McRae and Leon Berry were decent if not great wide receivers.
Maurice Langston was a solid CB.
Wade Bonner was a solid safety.
Jamar Chaney was a very good linebacker.
Dixon was a very good RB.
Christian Ducre was a good RB.
KJ Wright was a very good LB.
Patrick Hanrahan was a solid fullback.
Depasquale was a good kicker
Saulsberry was a good OG
Addison Lawrence was a solid OL (not sure if he played that year though)
DJ Looney was a good OL (again, not sure if he was good yet)
Brignone was a good Center
Derek Sherrod was a very good OT
Kyle Love was a good DL

Had major holes at free Safety and QB that were damn near debilitating, and some of those I likely am giving credit for how good they were a year or two later, but there were pieces for Mullen to work with, especially on defense.

ON offense, I think that first year was Mullen's best jobs his entire time at MSU as far as taking advantage of the playmakers he had on offense.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Ignoring the freshmen, looking at the roster and going off memory:
Charles Mitchell was a good safety.
McRae and Leon Berry were decent if not great wide receivers.
Maurice Langston was a solid CB.
Wade Bonner was a solid safety.
Jamar Chaney was a very good linebacker.
Dixon was a very good RB.
Christian Ducre was a good RB.
KJ Wright was a very good LB.
Patrick Hanrahan was a solid fullback.
Depasquale was a good kicker
Saulsberry was a good OG
Addison Lawrence was a solid OL (not sure if he played that year though)
DJ Looney was a good OL (again, not sure if he was good yet)
Brignone was a good Center
Derek Sherrod was a very good OT
Kyle Love was a good DL

Had major holes at free Safety and QB that were damn near debilitating, and some of those I likely am giving credit for how good they were a year or two later, but there were pieces for Mullen to work with, especially on defense.

ON offense, I think that first year was Mullen's best jobs his entire time at MSU as far as taking advantage of the playmakers he had on offense.

I agree. Mullen did a good job in 09, probably should have been a 7-8 win team. Got screwed vs LSU and a Houston team that had maybe 1 loss on the season

[Tbonewannabe]

Other than AD and a couple other players what great talent was on that first team Mullen had not a freshman or that actually played much his first year? Talent comment did not include freshmen as other than Cox, I don't remember any big impact freshmen. Cox wasn't all pro DT Cox his freshman year either - good for a freshman yes but I am talking about talent that played Dan's first year. Again other than freshman, Croom had the same talent the game before getting bounced 45-0 in egg bowl.

Go back and look at the roster. KJ Wright, Pernell McPhee, Kyle Love, and Derek Sherrod (1st round LT). That is without even looking at the roster. Doesn't count Cox, Gabe Jackson, and other guys in that recruiting class that was already committed.

[Tbonewannabe]

I agree. Mullen did a good job in 09, probably should have been a 7-8 win team. Got screwed vs LSU and a Houston team that had maybe 1 loss on the season


We ran into the #1 strength of schedule that year. Mullen did a great job with that schedule.

[The Federalist Engineer]

To summarize this thread for the people too young to remember the 2000s. It sucked.

If you lived through 2003 and 2004, you really appreciated 2014. The final minutes of the Auburn game might have made you cry. Dan cried.

From losing to Maine to being #1 in the Nation... for 5 weeks

[Todd4State]

Can we lock this?


To summarize this thread for the people too young to remember the 2000s. It sucked.

If you lived through 2003 and 2004, you really appreciated 2014. The final minutes of the Auburn game might have made you cry. Dan cried.

From losing to Maine to being #1 in the Nation... for 5 weeks

I'm trying to figure out how this thing has made it 10 pages?

[BeardoMSU]

I'm trying to figure out how this thing has made it 10 pages?

Apparently some people are really nostalgic about MSU being a total and complete laughingstock and just generally sucking dick.