NCAA Women's 400 meter hurdle national champion is a guy

[Coach007]

I understand the desire to kick this thread, but it is about to effect all of NCAA women's sports. The current rule in the NCAA is that no operation is needed. Just that a male be on test suppression drugs for a year. In 17 states, at the HS level, that's not even required.

Medically speaking, you do not undo a life time of testosterone and male genetics in a year. In fact, you never undo it completely.


CeCe Telfer ran as a guy last year and in his senior year ran as a girl breaking records along the way. This weekend he became the women's national Champion in the 400 meter hurdle. His time would have beaten every SEC runner except for 1 at the DI level prelims this weekend. That one runner would have barely beaten Tefler just based on time. We have noway of knowing if Tefler would have beaten her head to head (stronger competition pushes people).

Are we ok with this happening in our Women's sports?



https://www.franklinpierce.edu/about/news/National_Champion_CeCe_Telfer.htm

[Jack Lambert]

It's not fair and you know there are those who will take advantage of it.

[MadDawg]

Nobody with a functioning brain is in favor of this.

[Coach007]

The issue is that sports is big money for universities. Some people will play the game. I can see women's basketball being one of those areas.

[RougeDawg]

Nobody with a functioning brain is in favor of this.

Even women who speak out about this are silenced and shunned. Really is scary how someone and a functioning human brain can rationalize and agree with this.

[Liverpooldawg]

I understand the desire to kick this thread, but it is about to effect all of NCAA women's sports. The current rule in the NCAA is that no operation is needed. Just that a male be on test suppression drugs for a year. In 17 states, at the HS level, that's not even required.

Medically speaking, you do not undo a life time of testosterone and male genetics in a year. In fact, you never undo it completely.


CeCe Telfer ran as a guy last year and in his senior year ran as a girl breaking records along the way. This weekend he became the women's national Champion in the 400 meter hurdle. His time would have beaten every SEC runner except for 1 at the DI level prelims this weekend. That one runner would have barely beaten Tefler just based on time. We have noway of knowing if Tefler would have beaten her head to head (stronger competition pushes people).

Are we ok with this happening in our Women's sports?



https://www.franklinpierce.edu/about/news/National_Champion_CeCe_Telfer.htm

It's not fair and if it continues it will be the end of women's sports.

[Coach007]

Even women who speak out about this are silenced and shunned. Really is scary how someone and a functioning human brain can rationalize and agree with this.

Even women who are not straight. Martina Navratilova being one. She stated that it's an unfair advantage. At the time she represented Athlete Ally, an LGBTQ athlete advocacy group. They removed Navratilova from their advisory board, stating her comments "are transphobic"

This is sports. and it can not be ignored.

Last year a male decided to fight as a female and cracked his female opponents skull.

[RougeDawg]

It's not fair and if it continues it will be the end of women's sports.

As happens to every other aspect of sports and life, that this particular mindset is applied. Unintended consequences of altering nature and natural occurrences, always results in negative unintended consequences. You cannot defy the laws of nature, physics or economics. Always ends in destruction.

[deadheaddawg]

The issue is that sports is big money for universities. Some people will play the game. I can see women's basketball being one of those areas.

How many women's college sports programs actually make money? It can't be many, if any. A couple of basketball programs like UConn? I don't know I'm genuinely curious.

How much do WNBA players make do they make enough to intice a person to do such drastic changes?

Tennis I could see, because there is money in it, but there really isn't much money in most women sports as far as I know

[msstate7]

How many women's college sports programs actually make money? It can't be many, if any. A couple of basketball programs like UConn? I don't know I'm genuinely curious.

How much do WNBA players make do they make enough to intice a person to do such drastic changes?

Tennis I could see, because there is money in it, but there really isn't much money in most women sports as far as I know

How bout a free ride through college? A decent men's HS basketball player with no d1 offers can be a star in WCB and not pay a lick of tuition or room and board

[deadheaddawg]

How bout a free ride through college? A decent men's HS basketball player with no d1 offers can be a star in WCB and not pay a lick of tuition or room and board

That's a bit of a stretch. There are not going to be many, if any, high school kids willing to do that for nothing more than an education. And tbh if a kid wants to go to college that badly.....they are willing to do all that work for a college degree....then they probably are very smart, responsibile kids.

Because you are saying they would do it just for a degree. There are a lot of other avenues to getting a degree. I bet most would try a couple of years of community college before they spend all that effort to get a scholarship.

This could definitely be bad. And it's definitely unfair.....but it's not going to change the landscape of college sports. Not on a significant level. There is no incentive. Women's college sports is not a big money deal. High school boys are going to start doing this for a shot at making ......$60k in the WNBA.


Professional tennis should be very concerned. The Olympics should be concerned. But it's never going to be more than the occasional person. It's not going to be some mass influx of people. Nothing major will ever change

It's Still bad. Still unfair. But there is a lot of hyperbole and exaggerating going on with this issue. Especially with college sports. I keep seeing people on message boards acting like we are going to start seeing a big influx of this....and there is no logical reason to think that. There is very little incentive for it.

[Liverpooldawg]

That's a bit of a stretch. There are not going to be many, if any, high school kids willing to do that for nothing more than an education. And tbh if a kid wants to go to college that badly.....they are willing to do all that work for a college degree....then they probably are very smart, responsibile kids.

Because you are saying they would do it just for a degree. There are a lot of other avenues to getting a degree. I bet most would try a couple of years of community college before they spend all that effort to get a scholarship.

This could definitely be bad. And it's definitely unfair.....but it's not going to change the landscape of college sports. Not on a significant level. There is no incentive. Women's college sports is not a big money deal. High school boys are going to start doing this for a shot at making ......$60k in the WNBA.


Professional tennis should be very concerned. The Olympics should be concerned. But it's never going to be more than the occasional person. It's not going to be some mass influx of people. Nothing major will ever change

It's Still bad. Still unfair. But there is a lot of hyperbole and exaggerating going on with this issue.

It's not a stretch. In jr high the HS girls coach used to practice his team against pick up squads of jr high guys, not all of them basketball players. That girls team was pretty good. We held our own with them, despite the fact that they were more skilled and much older. If you think their aren't a good many men who would do it to get a free ride in college, you are pretty sheltered.

[msstate7]

That's a bit of a stretch. There are not going to be many, if any, high school kids willing to do that for nothing more than an education. And tbh if a kid wants to go to college that badly.....they are willing to do all that work for a college degree....then they probably are very smart, responsibile kids.

Because you are saying they would do it just for a degree. There are a lot of other avenues to getting a degree. I bet most would try a couple of years of community college before they spend all that effort to get a scholarship.

This could definitely be bad. And it's definitely unfair.....but it's not going to change the landscape of college sports. Not on a significant level. There is no incentive. Women's college sports is not a big money deal. High school boys are going to start doing this for a shot at making ......$60k in the WNBA.


Professional tennis should be very concerned. The Olympics should be concerned. But it's never going to be more than the occasional person. It's not going to be some mass influx of people. Nothing major will ever change

It's Still bad. Still unfair. But there is a lot of hyperbole and exaggerating going on with this issue.

Probably not in our part of the country, but I could certainly see a boy do something like this to get in Stanford or some other highly competitive, really expensive school.

ETA... Stanford had an acceptance rate of 5% this year, and it cost approximately $70,000 a year.

[Liverpooldawg]

The other thing is, even if they aren't that many, the men who do it are going to be some of the better athletes in their women's sport. If they start to dominate the sport, that sport is done. The vast majority of people who watch now will see it as unfair and won't watch.

[deadheaddawg]

I'm not shelter. I have kids in elementary and college. I know lots of kids at this age. I have lots of close friends that are teachers. And I know a few trans people. A student is not going to act like a different gender for 4 years just to get a degree. If school is that important to them, they will probably be smart enough to find another way.

People are so freaking paranoid about everything now. We have turned into a society of scaredy cats.

[deadheaddawg]

The other thing is, even if they aren't that many, the men who do it are going to be some of the better athletes in their women's sport. If they start to dominate the sport, that sport is done. The vast majority of people who watch now will see it as unfair and won't watch.

That's true. And it could really hurt tennis. It's not going to change college basketball, but it could tennis/Olympic sports

[Tbonewannabe]

I'm not shelter. I have kids in elementary and college. I know lots of kids at this age. I have lots of close friends that are teachers. And I know a few trans people. A student is not going to act like a different gender for 4 years just to get a degree. If school is that important to them, they will probably be smart enough to find another way.

People are so freaking paranoid about everything now. We have turned into a society of scaredy cats.

I am not saying it will be a big problem but it isn't fair to women to essentially compete with a guy. There are women that have high testosterone levels which naturally make them better athletes. The woman from South Africa or wherever is a woman with a naturally high level and they have medically tested her to verify that she is a woman. They now are talking about testing women and if their testosterone level is too high then they will have to take drugs to lower it. That is going too far. Men with higher levels are the better athletes and we don't seem to have a problem with that. If you want to even the playing field, where do you stop?

For the women, God made them that way so I don't see why they would have to do anything about it. I would bet Jackie Joyner Kearse probably had a higher level than normal. However, I don't know what you do about a trans competing with women. That is definitely an unfair advantage.

[Liverpooldawg]

I'm not shelter. I have kids in elementary and college. I know lots of kids at this age. I have lots of close friends that are teachers. And I know a few trans people. A student is not going to act like a different gender for 4 years just to get a degree. If school is that important to them, they will probably be smart enough to find another way.

People are so freaking paranoid about everything now. We have turned into a society of scaredy cats.

It's still not FAIR. The guy talked about in this thread is keeping a biological woman from getting a scholarship because of his GENETICS. Men are just stronger and faster, and year of hormones isn't going to change that. It's basically the same result as juicing, it's unfair.

[fishwater99]

My daughter's U12 soccer team played another team with a boy on it who identifies as a girl.

[msstate7]

My daughter's U12 soccer team played another team with a boy on it who identifies as a girl.

Under 12?! Good grief

[Msudogsrule]

She was the D2 Women's Track Champion. She would have barely qualified for the D1 Women's Track Championship. Just to clarify the numbers here. People who ID as a different gender aren't going to do it for some financial benefit (I know someone will come up with the one exception, but in general, they won't) or to be a champion of some amateur or olympic event. They already go through so much mental anguish, what is the benefit? Why put themselves through that?

[Lord McBuckethead]

That's a bit of a stretch. There are not going to be many, if any, high school kids willing to do that for nothing more than an education. And tbh if a kid wants to go to college that badly.....they are willing to do all that work for a college degree....then they probably are very smart, responsibile kids.

Because you are saying they would do it just for a degree. There are a lot of other avenues to getting a degree. I bet most would try a couple of years of community college before they spend all that effort to get a scholarship.

This could definitely be bad. And it's definitely unfair.....but it's not going to change the landscape of college sports. Not on a significant level. There is no incentive. Women's college sports is not a big money deal. High school boys are going to start doing this for a shot at making ......$60k in the WNBA.


Professional tennis should be very concerned. The Olympics should be concerned. But it's never going to be more than the occasional person. It's not going to be some mass influx of people. Nothing major will ever change

It's Still bad. Still unfair. But there is a lot of hyperbole and exaggerating going on with this issue. Especially with college sports. I keep seeing people on message boards acting like we are going to start seeing a big influx of this....and there is no logical reason to think that. There is very little incentive for it.

We definately could win a natty if Perry would play for Vic.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

She was the D2 Women's Track Champion. She would have barely qualified for the D1 Women's Track Championship. Just to clarify the numbers here. People who ID as a different gender aren't going to do it for some financial benefit (I know someone will come up with the one exception, but in general, they won't) or to be a champion of some amateur or olympic event. They already go through so much mental anguish, what is the benefit? Why put themselves through that?

A myriad of issues, but isn't it all about attention?

[Kingbarkus]

Simple rule. You compete with the gender of which you were born.

[deadheaddawg]

We definately could win a natty if Perry would play for Vic.


That's probably true. You know what else is probably true. Vic is never going to be able to convince a male player like Perry to become a woman for 4 years so he can get a free education. Not even sure how that conversation would go, but its absurd to think it would ever happen on a large meaningful scale


Vic "I need you. We can with a Natty with you"
Perry " but dont you coach girls?"
Vic "yes, but according to Briebet its ok if you play and its going to be really common"
Perry "what do I have to do?"
Vic "wear a dress for 4 years"
Perry "how much you gonna pay?"
Vic "nothing. This is womens sports we dont make money"
Perry "will it help me get in the nba?"
Vic "no"
Perry "can I make good money in the WNBA?"
Vic " no"
Perry "so why would I do it?"
Vic "you can get a free education"
Perry "you are dumber than coach34. GTFO with that nonsense. I will just go to Hinds CC and get my basics done. If I want a college degree that badly, trust me I can find an easier way"

[timotheus]

what has 34 got to do with this? u jealous huh?

[deadheaddawg]

what has 34 got to do with this? u jealous huh?

No. Not jealous at all. I'm just southern. We use certain names as general references for things

All sodas are cokes. All pain medicine is apsrine. All idiots are coach34.

Just trying to make it easier and universal for us.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Even women who are not straight. Martina Navratilova being one.. What? Martina is not straight? I?m Shocked!**** Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[turkish]

Nobody with a functioning brain is in favor of this.
Unfortunately, I’d venture a guess that millions of American voters see nothing wrong with it.

[Westdawg]

That's a bit of a stretch. There are not going to be many, if any, high school kids willing to do that for nothing more than an education. And tbh if a kid wants to go to college that badly.....they are willing to do all that work for a college degree....then they probably are very smart, responsibile kids.

Because you are saying they would do it just for a degree. There are a lot of other avenues to getting a degree. I bet most would try a couple of years of community college before they spend all that effort to get a scholarship.

This could definitely be bad. And it's definitely unfair.....but it's not going to change the landscape of college sports. Not on a significant level. There is no incentive. Women's college sports is not a big money deal. High school boys are going to start doing this for a shot at making ......$60k in the WNBA.


Professional tennis should be very concerned. The Olympics should be concerned. But it's never going to be more than the occasional person. It's not going to be some mass influx of people. Nothing major will ever change

It's Still bad. Still unfair. But there is a lot of hyperbole and exaggerating going on with this issue. Especially with college sports. I keep seeing people on message boards acting like we are going to start seeing a big influx of this....and there is no logical reason to think that. There is very little incentive for it.

It already has become a major influx. It went from one a about 4-5 years ago, to 5-10 just 2-3 years ago. Now there are a couple dozen in HS sports across the country and several in college in the US.

[deadheaddawg]

It already has become a major influx. It went from one a about 4-5 years ago, to 5-10 just 2-3 years ago. Now there are a couple dozen in HS sports across the country and several in college in the US.

Where colleges are the 5-10 at? I don't doubt you, but I'd like to see a list. I assume all 10 are smashing all the records they attempt?

You seem confident, so I don't doubt you will list at least 5-7 currentl men competing in women's college sports.

For reference, there are about 210,000 female college athletes. After you list the 10 I will do the math on the influx to get a guage of how big the influx is

[Activated Alpha]

I watched the NCAA Women's Final Ultimate Frisbee Championship game yesterday against Dartmouth and UC San Diego. Dartmouth had a 6'4 guy who identified as female play for them. They've apparently won back-to-back NCAA championships in 17 and 18. Had to look him up to be certain and was correct, but he gets upset when the topic is broached about him being trans. Not sure why I watched that game, but I was super bored.

[TaleofTwoDogs]

Unfortunately, I’d venture a guess that millions of American voters see nothing wrong with it.

Ain't that the truth.

[Cooterpoot]

Tranny track meet. Or is it tranny track meat? I don’t know.

[Msudogsrule]

A myriad of issues, but isn't it all about attention?
What, exactly, do you mean by seeking attention?

[Apoplectic]

another obama legacy

[Really Clark?]

Even women who are not straight. Martina Navratilova being one. She stated that it's an unfair advantage. At the time she represented Athlete Ally, an LGBTQ athlete advocacy group. They removed Navratilova from their advisory board, stating her comments "are transphobic"

This is sports. and it can not be ignored.

Last year a male decided to fight as a female and cracked his female opponents skull.

That?s pretty hypocritical of them since Renee Richards is Martina?s former coach and friend for decades.

[Coach007]

That's a bit of a stretch. There are not going to be many, if any, high school kids willing to do that for nothing more than an education. And tbh if a kid wants to go to college that badly.....they are willing to do all that work for a college degree....then they probably are very smart, responsibile kids.

Because you are saying they would do it just for a degree. There are a lot of other avenues to getting a degree. I bet most would try a couple of years of community college before they spend all that effort to get a scholarship.

This could definitely be bad. And it's definitely unfair.....but it's not going to change the landscape of college sports. Not on a significant level. There is no incentive. Women's college sports is not a big money deal. High school boys are going to start doing this for a shot at making ......$60k in the WNBA.


Professional tennis should be very concerned. The Olympics should be concerned. But it's never going to be more than the occasional person. It's not going to be some mass influx of people. Nothing major will ever change

It's Still bad. Still unfair. But there is a lot of hyperbole and exaggerating going on with this issue. Especially with college sports. I keep seeing people on message boards acting like we are going to start seeing a big influx of this....and there is no logical reason to think that. There is very little incentive for it.

17 states require nothing more than HS students to identify as female. This year in Connecticut, 2 boys made the call to switch. They took 1st and 2nd. He is the women's state champion.

This is happening way more than you think. WAY more.

When you have HS and middle schools and elementary schools teaching and suggesting that kids should be free to be what they identify as, numbers will increase.

[Coach007]

Probably not in our part of the country, but I could certainly see a boy do something like this to get in Stanford or some other highly competitive, really expensive school.

ETA... Stanford had an acceptance rate of 5% this year, and it cost approximately $70,000 a year.

Harvard says hello.

[Coach007]

She was the D2 Women's Track Champion. She would have barely qualified for the D1 Women's Track Championship.

That's 100% false. Only one person beat HIS time this weekend at the prelims and that is YOUNG from LSU!

https://dt8v5llb2dwhs.cloudfront.net/East/030-1_compiled.htm

1 Milan YOUNG SO LSU 57.39 Q 6 (1) PB
2 Faith ROSS JR Kentucky 57.77 Q 6 (2)

He ran a 57.53

[Really Clark?]

Here is the thing, as long as it’s at lower level of competition and not impacting high profile events/records, the policy by the NCAA and Olympic committee won’t be changed. You have to have 1 full year of treatment to qualify. The problem is there is no treatment to make a man’s heart and lungs shrink. Bones less dense. Ligaments shorter. Muscle density less. And the quick twitch fibers do not disappear.

And my question is where is the line that people say women’s rights, Title IX, etc. are being infringed? 1 athlete, 100 athletes, 20%...just because it’s a few now doesn’t mean it’s not a problem that needs to be addressed long before a large number of female athletes are disenfranchised. It’s always better to head off issues sooner rather than later.

[msstate7]

Harvard says hello.

No athletic scholarships, right?

[Cooterpoot]

NCAA is always dicking around with women’s sports.

[Coach007]

That?s pretty hypocritical of them since Renee Richards is Martina?s former coach and friend for decades.

I did not know that anybody else would know that. But yes.

[Coach007]

Here is the thing, as long as it’s at lower level of competition and not impacting high profile events/records, the policy by the NCAA and Olympic committee won’t be changed. You have to have 1 full year of treatment to qualify. The problem is there is no treatment to make a man’s heart and lungs shrink. Bones less dense. Ligaments shorter. Muscle density less. And the quick twitch fibers do not disappear.

And my question is where is the line that people say women’s rights, Title IX, etc. are being infringed? 1 athlete, 100 athletes, 20%...just because it’s a few now doesn’t mean it’s not a problem that needs to be addressed long before a large number of female athletes are disenfranchised. It’s always better to head off issues sooner rather than later.

AND I had no idea anybody here would know the science behind that either....

[Cooterpoot]

Ole Clark is way ahead of folks on this board medically. And could probably whip everybody’s ass too.

[fccee1]

Deleted

[R2Dawg]

I understand the desire to kick this thread, but it is about to effect all of NCAA women's sports. The current rule in the NCAA is that no operation is needed. Just that a male be on test suppression drugs for a year. In 17 states, at the HS level, that's not even required.

Medically speaking, you do not undo a life time of testosterone and male genetics in a year. In fact, you never undo it completely.


CeCe Telfer ran as a guy last year and in his senior year ran as a girl breaking records along the way. This weekend he became the women's national Champion in the 400 meter hurdle. His time would have beaten every SEC runner except for 1 at the DI level prelims this weekend. That one runner would have barely beaten Tefler just based on time. We have noway of knowing if Tefler would have beaten her head to head (stronger competition pushes people).

Are we ok with this happening in our Women's sports?



https://www.franklinpierce.edu/about/news/National_Champion_CeCe_Telfer.htm

The end of women's sports. Can't believe the women have let this happen?

[shannondawg]

The folk that pushed for this, will be long gone after the sport is ruined.

[starkvegasdawg]

This isn't a difficult concept. If you were born with a dick swinging between your legs you don't compete in women's events. Period. Just that simple. You are a male whether you like it or not. No amount of hormone therapy and surgery is going to change that. Those that can't accept that need to see a mental health professional. Not a surgeon.

[gtowndawg]

My daughter's U12 soccer team played another team with a boy on it who identifies as a girl.

Man, I'd be pissed about that

[TStationDawg]

Under 12?! Good grief

Right- you can't buy a gun, tobacco or fight for your country until your 18- but we'll let you, as a minor, decide on the gender you choose, take hormone therapy and have life altering surgery as soon as you want or "declare". For the record, I'm NOT saying identity issues are trivial. Not at all. I know its a real struggle for some children. But these decisions require MUCH more foresight, discussion and thought than we allow for as a society.

[sandwolf]

Last year a male decided to fight as a female and cracked his female opponents skull.

Damn, really? You have a link to that story?

[msstate7]

Damn, really? You have a link to that story?

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

[Marvin]

I take an accelerationist attitude in these types of things in that the faster they push the faster we?ll get back to a normal society. Would like to see the next Zion Williamson change his identification and average 80 and 40 in NCAAW

[sandwolf]

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

Damn....its incredibly stupid and irresponsible to let a guy fight as a woman.

[Todd4State]

I think the logical thing to do is have men's/women's and then a new category- trans sports teams.

At least it would be a level playing field that way.

[Dawg61]

Unfortunately, I?d venture a guess that millions of American voters see nothing wrong with it.

Not sure you wanna bring up what millions of American voters see nothing wrong with. Funny this topic is brought up today of all days too.

[RocketDawg]

Not sure you wanna bring up what millions of American voters see nothing wrong with. Funny this topic is brought up today of all days too.

I suppose I'm just ignorant of current events, but what's special about today?

[timotheus]

maybe ole 6-1 will tell us....