Idea Stolen From the Magnum Thread

[Michael Milken]

The MSU all time team.

Baseball edition.

Current NCAA rules. 35 roster spots

I have recency bias...

1 Jake Mangum CF
2 Nat Showalter LF
3 Will Clark 1b
4 Rafael Palmerio RF
5 Brent Rooker DH
6 Burke Masters 2b
7 Travis Chapman 3b
8 Ed Easley C
9 Jackie Parker SS


Pitcher
10 Willie Mitchell
14 Paul Maholm
15 Dakota Hudson

Relief
11 Jeff Brantley
12 Eric DuBose
13 Bobby Reed
16 BJ Wallace
17 John Harden
18 Chris Stratton
19 Bobby Thigpen
25 Jonathon Holder

Bench
20 Del Unser (OF)
21 Mark Gillaspie (OF)
22 Bruce Castoria (1b)
23 Pete Young (p/Utl)
24 Matt Maniscalco (SS)
26 Tommy Raffo (1b)
27 Dan Van Cleve (OF)
28 Adam Frazier (SS)
29 Mitch Slauter (c)?
30 Braxton Nail (c)
31 Brett Pirtle (2b)
32 Hunter Renfroe (OF)
33 Phil Still (3b)
34 Brian Weise (p/OF)
35 Pete Grammas (2b)

[tcdog70]

no Richard Lee? or Brantley Jones-Duck Proffitt-Dennis Hall--Mike Kelly.

[Randolph Dupree]

Interesting. You have Maniscalco but leave out Moreland. Nothing against Mani but not sure I'd have him on this list.

[Michael Milken]

no Richard Lee? or Brantley Jones-Duck Proffitt-Dennis Hall--Mike Kelly.

I was trying to put together a roster. Not a all time list. I already have 4-5 first basemen ( Clark, Castoria, Raffo, Rooker, Palmerio) Richard Lee is the odd man out of that.

Kelly was a hard cut.

The others, I am not familiar with.

[Michael Milken]

Interdict. You have Maniscalco but leave out Moreland. Nothing against Mani but not sure I'd have him on this list.

The premise is a roster. Not an all time list.

I have 4-5 first basemen and 3 catchers. For a roster I wanted at least 2 shortstops. I could be convinced to swap Slaughter for Moreland at C. But Moreland is, at best, 6th at 1st base.

[Tbonewannabe]

I was trying to put together a roster. Not a all time list. I already have 4-5 first basemen ( Clark, Castoria, Raffo, Rooker, Palmerio) Richard Lee is the odd man out of that.

Kelly was a hard cut.

The others, I am not familiar with.

Mitch Moreland also played RF and was a relief pitcher. I would add Papelbon to the Relief Pitchers. Interesting enough, do you just include someone based on one year or career? Hunter Renfroe should be included since Showalter only played one year at MSU.

[Randolph Dupree]

The premise is a roster. Not an all time list.

I have 4-5 first basemen and 3 catchers. For a roster I wanted at least 2 shortstops. I could be convinced to swap Slaughter for Moreland at C. But Moreland is, at best, 6th at 1st base.

Moreland played a lot of OF and pitched. No way I take Renfroe over Moreland. Love Hunter but he had one great year, Mitch was really good at multiple spots. Could also debate having Rooker on the list based on that logic, but Rooker's one great year was a monster....and I believe he was under valued the previous year.

[Michael Milken]

Mitch Moreland also played RF and was a relief pitcher. I would add Papelbon to the Relief Pitchers. Interesting enough, do you just include someone based on one year or career? Hunter Renfroe should be included since Showalter only played one year at MSU.

Hunter Renfroe is on the list.

IMO, Papelbon was a much better pro than at MSU and I already have 15 pitchers (16 if you added Moreland)

Showalter had one year, but it was an all time great.


None of you want to show your roster??

[Michael Milken]

Moreland played a lot of OF and pitched. No way I take Renfroe over Moreland. Love Hunter but he had one great year, Mitch was really good at multiple spots. Could also debate having Rooker on the list based on that logic, but Rooker's one great year was a monster....and I believe he was under valued the previous year.


Ok so do your list.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be...

https://hailstate.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=1679

Mitch was not an everyday player until his Jr year.


Moreland is a better pro than he was at MSU. Mitch was never even a consistent starter at MSU. (never made all sec, player of the week)

Renfroe was a consensus all american 1st team in 2013

[Tbonewannabe]

Hunter Renfroe is on the list.

IMO, Papelbon was a much better pro than at MSU and I already have 15 pitchers (16 if you added Moreland)

Showalter had one year, but it was an all time great.


None of you want to show your roster??

I might add Stovall to the roster. He honestly is one of the best overall 2nd basemen I have seen at State.

It might be more interesting if people created a roster of the players they have seen play. I didn't start watching until mid to late 90s so Clark, Palmeiro, Masters, and Richard Lee were all before my time.

[Tbonewannabe]

And Duh, Jeffrey Rea should be in the discussion for 2nd base or OF.

[Michael Milken]

And Duh, Jeffrey Rea should be in the discussion for 2nd base or OF.

OF is full.

Already had Masters (2x academic All american and SEC scholar athlete of the year) and Pirtle (2x all sec, sec all defensive team, ABCA all region) at 2nd. Could be convinced to swap Pirtle and Rea (2 x all sec, freshman all american, ABCA all region). But I think Pirtle was better.

[graddawg]

I loved watching Maniscalco play, but give me Brad Freeman over him all day, every day.

[tcdog70]

I was trying to put together a roster. Not a all time list. I already have 4-5 first basemen ( Clark, Castoria, Raffo, Rooker, Palmerio) Richard Lee is the odd man out of that.

Kelly was a hard cut.

The others, I am not familiar with.

You need to look them up--if you are a Bulldog fan. Lee would be a hell-of-a odd man.

[Homedawg]

The MSU all time team.

Baseball edition.

Current NCAA rules. 35 roster spots

I have recency bias...

1 Jake Mangum CF
2 Nat Showalter LF
3 Will Clark 1b
4 Rafael Palmerio RF
5 Brent Rooker DH
6 Burke Masters 2b
7 Travis Chapman 3b
8 Ed Easley C
9 Jackie Parker SS


Pitcher
10 Willie Mitchell
14 Paul Maholm
15 Dakota Hudson

Relief
11 Jeff Brantley
12 Eric DuBose
13 Bobby Reed
16 BJ Wallace
17 John Harden
18 Chris Stratton
19 Ross Mitchell
25 Jonathon Holder

Bench
20 Del Unser (OF)
21 Mark Gillaspie (OF)
22 Bruce Castoria (1b)
23 Pete Young (p/Utl)
24 Matt Maniscalco (SS)
26 Tommy Raffo (1b)
27 Dan Van Cleve (OF)
28 Adam Frazier (SS)
29 Mitch Slauter (c)
30 Braxton Nail (c)
31 Brett Pirtle (2b)
32 Hunter Renfroe (OF)
33 Phil Still (3b)
34 Brian Weise (p/OF)
35 Pete Grammas (2b)

Our all time hits leader can't make the team????

[MStateDawg]

I was trying to put together a roster. Not a all time list. I already have 4-5 first basemen ( Clark, Castoria, Raffo, Rooker, Palmerio) Richard Lee is the odd man out of that.

Rooker had a monster season, but Lee had the better career.

[tcdog70]

I was trying to put together a roster. Not a all time list. I already have 4-5 first basemen ( Clark, Castoria, Raffo, Rooker, Palmerio) Richard Lee is the odd man out of that.

Kelly was a hard cut.

The others, I am not familiar with.

FYI
Profitt-won 30 games in 45 starts--he had 36 complete games--he had 11 shutout for his career

Hall is all-time leader for a season with a .63 ERA

Hall-Profitt and Jones are 2-3-4 in all time era.

and Lee-is the career leader in RBI with 266 and is 4th and 5th place in rbi for a season. and we know where he stacks up in hits all-time


If we had Jones-Hall-Profitt this year we would win a Natty--yes they were on the same team in 1970

and I didn't even mention Frank Montgomery

[Michael Milken]

Rooker had a monster season, but Lee had the better career.


Why would I take the time to do an all msu baseball team "If I was not a bulldog"?


Jones, Proffit, and Hall don't show up in the media guide (Mea Culpa - I was looking at batting)

I was in school with Lee. Had a class or 2 with him. Nice guy. Kinda quiet. I saw him play

But all Lee could play is 1st. He was all sec 1 time. We already have a logjam there.

Rooker could play some OF and was all sec for 2 years (2016 and 2017). And lead the team in HR and RBI in 2016 and 2017. His 2017 makes his 2016 look bad.

And his "one great year" has only ever been done one other time in SEC history....

Again, Building a team not a "list of great players". You want me to replace a multi tool utility player with a 5th 1st baseman... Sorry. Not on my team. I'll have Pete Young play 1st if i go through the other 4...

[Michael Milken]

Our all time hits leader can't make the team????


Pirtle was a better defender than Rea, and was an equal with the bat. Rea just got 2 more years as a starter.

And I think Masters was a better player.

Grammas was an all american.

Rea gets left out.

[Michael Milken]

FYI
Profitt-won 30 games in 45 starts--he had 36 complete games--he had 11 shutout for his career

Hall is all-time leader for a season with a .63 ERA

Hall-Profitt and Jones are 2-3-4 in all time era.

and Lee-is the career leader in RBI with 266 and is 4th and 5th place in rbi for a season. and we know where he stacks up in hits all-time


If we had Jones-Hall-Profitt this year we would win a Natty--yes they were on the same team in 1970

and I didn't even mention Frank Montgomery


Thanks. They are all before my time. Who would you replace? I had a hard time with pitchers.

Already left out Gary Rath, Van Johnson, Gene Morgan, and made Pete Young a Utility player.

[Michael Milken]

I loved watching Maniscalco play, but give me Brad Freeman over him all day, every day.

A Fair trade. Maniscalco was freshman AA and all sec as a SR. Freeman never made either.

[msst15]

CT Bradford??

[Cary Hudson's little bro]

msst15...Are you CT? haha

So many great players you should prob just do it by decade and then debate which teams would win?

[Cary Hudson's little bro]

Paul Maholm...Steve Gendron, Joseph Hunter was all world as a freshman...Alan Johnson was automatic.

Adam Piatt...Eric DuBose, Scott Polk, David Hayman

[cujo]

Not many of these guys have a trophy named after them

[msbulldog]

The MSU all time team.

Baseball edition.

Current NCAA rules. 35 roster spots

I have recency bias...

1 Jake Mangum CF
2 Nat Showalter LF
3 Will Clark 1b
4 Rafael Palmerio RF
5 Brent Rooker DH
6 Burke Masters 2b
7 Travis Chapman 3b
8 Ed Easley C
9 Jackie Parker SS


Pitcher
10 Willie Mitchell
14 Paul Maholm
15 Dakota Hudson

Relief
11 Jeff Brantley
12 Eric DuBose
13 Bobby Reed
16 BJ Wallace
17 John Harden
18 Chris Stratton
19 Ross Mitchell
25 Jonathon Holder

Bench
20 Del Unser (OF)
21 Mark Gillaspie (OF)
22 Bruce Castoria (1b)
23 Pete Young (p/Utl)
24 Matt Maniscalco (SS)
26 Tommy Raffo (1b)
27 Dan Van Cleve (OF)
28 Adam Frazier (SS)
29 Mitch Slauter (c)
30 Braxton Nail (c)
31 Brett Pirtle (2b)
32 Hunter Renfroe (OF)
33 Phil Still (3b)
34 Brian Weise (p/OF)
35 Pete Grammas (2b)

Dammit strong bench, i want those guys in my Field of Dreams.

[tcdog70]

Thanks. They are all before my time. Who would you replace? I had a hard time with pitchers.

Already left out Gary Rath, Van Johnson, Gene Morgan, and made Pete Young a Utility player.

The question should have been who would take their place. Did you not see what those 3 did. -2-3-4 ranking in career ERA.
Dude Profitt had 11 shutouts and 36 complete games. Any team with out Him is a joke. Dennis Hall had a .63 ERA --who else is close. Maybe go look up pitching stats.

[Michael Milken]

The question should have been who would take their place. Did you not see what those 3 did. -2-3-4 ranking in career ERA.
Dude Profitt had 11 shutouts and 36 complete games. Any team with out Him is a joke. Dennis Hall had a .63 ERA --who else is close. Maybe go look up pitching stats.

Let's see your team. ERA isn't everything. I have Ross mitchell in. He has a great ERA, but he would be a crap starter. Like I said they were before my time.

You seem to have your panties in a twist. Chill.

This is to create discussion. I learned something. Might have learned it sooner if you were not a jackass about it....

So Who do you bump off the list?

[Tbonewannabe]

Let's see your team. ERA isn't everything. I have Ross mitchell in. He has a great ERA, but he would be a crap starter. Like I said they were before my time.

You seem to have your panties in a twist. Chill.

This is to create discussion. I learned something. Might have learned it sooner if you were not a jackass about it....

So Who do you bump off the list?

Ross Mitchell was great with the dead ball but was mediocre his senior year with the new ball. Those type of things affect comparisons across different eras. What kind of numbers would Renfroe and Frazier put up if they weren't in the dead ball era?

[Michael Milken]

Ross Mitchell was great with the dead ball but was mediocre his senior year with the new ball. Those type of things affect comparisons across different eras. What kind of numbers would Renfroe and Frazier put up if they weren't in the dead ball era?

Exactly.
Which is why i'm hesitant to just look at low ERA numbers. I have no idea what college baseball era's were in 1968-1970.

Was the mound the same height? Wooden bats and the DH started in 1974.

What would Renfro, Rooker, and Mangum's numbers be if they used a 1990's pre BBCOR bat?

Found this.
http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/NCAA/ERA.jpg
average college ERA in 1970 was 3.3 vs 4.8 today.

That makes Lingrens's 0.81 in 2014 (average college ERA 4.25) and Jamie Gant's 1.15 in 2003 (average college ERA 5.25) much more impressive than Hall's 0.63 in 1970(average College ERA 3.3).

Narrowing the list of MSU pitchers is hard. I left in Ross thinking , if this was real, a junkball lefty fallowing all those power pitchers would be effective.

Willie Mitchell was included for having a 26 strikeout game.

[tcdog70]

Exactly.
Which is why i'm hesitant to just look at low ERA numbers. I have no idea what college baseball era's were in 1968-1970.

Was the mound the same height? Wooden bats and the DH started in 1974.

What would Renfro, Rooker, and Mangum's numbers be if they used a 1990's pre BBCOR bat?

Found this.
http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/NCAA/ERA.jpg
average college ERA in 1970 was 3.3 vs 4.8 today.

That makes Lingrens's 0.81 in 2014 (average college ERA 4.25) and Jamie Gant's 1.15 in 2003 (average college ERA 5.25) much more impressive than Hall's 0.63 in 1970(average College ERA 3.3).

Narrowing the list of MSU pitchers is hard. I left in Ross thinking , if this was real, a junkball lefty fallowing all those power pitchers would be effective.

Willie Mitchell was included for having a 26 strikeout game.

Much more impressive--right. He was also undefeated that year. Now justify someone being better than Profitt. 36 complete game and 11 shutouts. Get you a graph on that.

[Michael Milken]

Much more impressive--right. He was also undefeated that year. Now justify someone being better than Profitt. 36 complete game and 11 shutouts. Get you a graph on that.

You seem to take this personally. I'm not handing out awards or trophies for this.

Chill


And Throwing complete games when they allowed pitchers to have 200+ pitch games vs now with an 85-100 pitch count is apples and oranges. James Carroll pitched a 14 inning game in 1966. It's a different era.

11 shutouts during the lowest offensive production on record in college baseball is not helping your case.

If I had more time and more data, comparing all our players with advanced stats ( WAR) would be enlightening. Just by the curve above, Jamie Gant deserves more attention for his 2003 season. Brantley had a huge number of K's compared to baseball as a whole.

Showalters batting average record is +0.175 over the national average that year and Mangum's 0.408 is +.0133 over the national average. While Clarks's is only +0.115 over the average his year.

Castoria's 29 homers (0.46/game) in 1981 (Teams averaged 0.625/game) is a larger outlier vs the national average than Palmeiro's 29 (0.475/game) in 1984 (national team average 0.77) . Richard Lee's 19 homers (0.29/ game) is looks worse when the national average that year was 1 hr/game.

I don't have the data or the time to look at everyone..


https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/ncaa-stats.html

Again. this is my list.

You are free to make your own. Or even as I asked, just tell me who you cut to put your buddies on.

H\My thought was we could have a discussion an people could learn from the old timers.

Seems like all it did was piss you off.

[KentuckyDawg13]

Bobby Thigpen?

[Michael Milken]

Bobby Thigpen?



Crap. Good Catch. Sub him for Ross Mitchell.

[tcdog70]

You seem to take this personally. I'm not handing out awards or trophies for this.

Chill


And Throwing complete games when they allowed pitchers to have 200+ pitch games vs now with an 85-100 pitch count is apples and oranges. James Carroll pitched a 14 inning game in 1966. It's a different era.

11 shutouts during the lowest offensive production on record in college baseball is not helping your case.

If I had more time and more data, comparing all our players with advanced stats ( WAR) would be enlightening. Just by the curve above, Jamie Gant deserves more attention for his 2003 season. Brantley had a huge number of K's compared to baseball as a whole.

Showalters batting average record is +0.175 over the national average that year and Mangum's 0.408 is +.0133 over the national average. While Clarks's is only +0.115 over the average his year.

Castoria's 29 homers (0.46/game) in 1981 (Teams averaged 0.625/game) is a larger outlier vs the national average than Palmeiro's 29 (0.475/game) in 1984 (national team average 0.77) . Richard Lee's 19 homers (0.29/ game) is looks worse when the national average that year was 1 hr/game.

I don't have the data or the time to look at everyone..


https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/ncaa-stats.html

Again. this is my list.

You are free to make your own. Or even as I asked, just tell me who you cut to put your buddies on.

H\My thought was we could have a discussion an people could learn from the old timers.

Seems like all it did was piss you off.

Ha, Dude nobody is pissed. You wanted discussion , so I discussed. You might need to chill.

[Michael Milken]

Ha, Dude nobody is pissed. You wanted discussion , so I discussed. You might need to chill.

I'm calm and explaining what and why I picked my roster.

You seem to be offended that I didn't pick your boys....


Still waiting on who you cut to add them....

But instead you just want to seagull everything.

[Gutter Cobreh]

Ha, Dude nobody is pissed. You wanted discussion , so I discussed. You might need to chill.

I think someone needs to explain to you what the word "discussion" means.... by reading this thread, it's obvious that you don't understand the meaning.

[Bubb Rubb]

Hunter Renfroe is on the list.

IMO, Papelbon was a much better pro than at MSU and I already have 15 pitchers (16 if you added Moreland)

Showalter had one year, but it was an all time great.


None of you want to show your roster??

I have a soft spot for Ross Mitchell because he basically carried us to the championship in 13 with stellar relief work. It would be difficult for me to leave him off the bullpen roster. I realize he didn't overmatch hitters, but he was really good.