Starkville vs MC: Video of last play

[ShotgunDawg]

http://www.wjtv.com/story/23747360/final-play-of-madison-centralstarkville-game

Apparently, the MSHAA is considering taking action on the last play of the Starkville/MC game. However, IMO this video is not convincing either way. I don't think there is anyway to tell in this video whether or not it was a good or bad call.

BUT that isn't the point. On subjective calls, which this is, Refs make bad calls every game. There is nothing that the MHSAA could do about that game with what you see in this video. The only question is whether or not MC should've been given another play.

IMO, I think the refs did the right thing. If time runs out, and the offense commits a penalty, the game is over.

As evidenced by the below link: in the NFL, if the offense commits a penalty with 10 or less seconds left in the game, the game is over. Why would MHSAA rules be any different?

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2010-09-12-redskins-cowboys_N.htm

[FlabLoser]

As evidenced by the below link: in the NFL, if the offense commits a penalty with 10 or less seconds left in the game, the game is over. Why would MHSAA rules be any different?

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2010-09-12-redskins-cowboys_N.htm


Because high school football rules are a lot different than NFL football rules. The NFL has no relevance to this story.

[Todd4State]

I can't tell from the video if the CB slipped or if he fell because he was pushed off on by the WR because I can't tell what the WR's arm is doing. First instinct says it's not a penalty.

I know that there was some controversy over the official throwing the flag late, but that didn't seem to be the case to me. It wasn't like the WR was in the end zone when he threw it.

[Vandownbytheriver]

It's a judgment call. I can see how the ref threw the flag. Looks like the kid could have knocked the DB over or he could have slipped. If the MHSAA intervenes they lose what little respect they already have. The ref thought it was a pushoff, so as an organization you support your guy.

[ShotgunDawg]

Because high school football rules are a lot different than NFL football rules. The NFL has no relevance to this story.

This is true, but, unless the MHSAA rule book clearly states that the game can't end on a penalty regardless if it was committed by the offense or defense, then common sense should prevail. The NFL is very specific on this rule, and it seems like it's the right thing to do.

The subjective call in the video is exactly that, subjective. The same as LSU getting a TD against us in the first quarter when their WR was holding our CB. No different.

[CadaverDawg]

At least he threw the flag before the throw and catch, so it was clear that he thought the WR pushed off. Had he thrown it after the catch, I would have said BS. I think the ref thought he saw a swim move with a push off attached to it...therefore the flag. Not sure it was a good call, but nothing in that video warrants any type of action by the MHSAA in my opinion. Simple judgement call...I've seen much worse go without any action. But Bawby Hawl may have enough pull to get something done.

[M.Fillmore]

http://www.wjtv.com/story/23747360/final-play-of-madison-centralstarkville-game

I think the refs did the right thing. If time runs out, and the offense commits a penalty, the game is over.


Per the CURRENT high school rulebook, there should have been another play. Matthew Stevens tweeted last year's rule. You can disagree, but the rule is very clear. Only on illegal forward handoff, illegal forward pass and illegal touching is the offence not entitled to an untimed down.

[ShotgunDawg]

You mean these two tweets?

Matthew Stevens ‏@matthewcstevens 19 Oct
My interpretation of this bylaw in the NFHS Football rulebook means offensive pass interference can end a high school football.
Expand
Matthew Stevens ‏@matthewcstevens 19 Oct
From NFHS Football rulebook - if I'm interpreting this correctly, the refs of Mad Central-SHS got the end correct. pic.twitter.com/MU2Cf2rshX

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BW68CN0CUAEsxzW.png:large

Madison Central fans have no leg to stand on here. Just shouting from the mountain.

[M.Fillmore]

Yes, those are the tweets.

The judgment call of offensive pass interference cannot be disputed or argued or overturned. Judgment call plain and simple.

As for the issue of getting another down, congratulations for posting a link to the rulebook from LAST YEAR. The rule has changed. What you posted is not longer applicable. This year's rulebook omits the Offensive Pass Interference reference.

[ShotgunDawg]

I was just posting what Steven's tweeted.

[M.Fillmore]

No problem bro. It irritates me when a reporter doesn't check his sources. I don't blame you. If I didn't have access to years of the NFHS rule books that govern high school football, I would have come to the same conclusion as you.

[ShotgunDawg]

You know what.... I think your right. College and High school have a completely different rule than the NFL. Check out this link:

http://usafootball.com/blog/fundamentals-and-performance/offensive-penalty-half’s-end-merits-untimed-down-ask-official

[cheewgumm]

They shouldn't get another play, if that is the rule. Seems like a dumb rule.


http://www.wjtv.com/story/23747360/final-play-of-madison-centralstarkville-game

Apparently, the MSHAA is considering taking action on the last play of the Starkville/MC game. However, IMO this video is not convincing either way. I don't think there is anyway to tell in this video whether or not it was a good or bad call.

BUT that isn't the point. On subjective calls, which this is, Refs make bad calls every game. There is nothing that the MHSAA could do about that game with what you see in this video. The only question is whether or not MC should've been given another play.

IMO, I think the refs did the right thing. If time runs out, and the offense commits a penalty, the game is over.

As evidenced by the below link: in the NFL, if the offense commits a penalty with 10 or less seconds left in the game, the game is over. Why would MHSAA rules be any different?

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2010-09-12-redskins-cowboys_N.htm

[ShotgunDawg]

They shouldn't get another play, if that is the rule. Seems like a dumb rule.

I completely agree that its a dumb rule... no doubt about that. But it does seem as though thats the rule.

[Homedawg]

I completely agree that its a dumb rule... no doubt about that. But it does seem as though thats the rule.

Per a mshaa official who has officiated multiple championship games, they should have gotten another play. As the previous poster stated.

[ckDOG]

Looked like a good route and bad call from the camera angle. That said, I could see the ref from the angle he was viewing that play thinking the WR ran through him on his cut.

If MC wants to pursue this, it better be bc they were warranted an extra play per the rules. That's a dumb rule, but if it's there, it's there.

[cheewgumm]

I wonder if an unsportsmanlike penalty keeps the game going.

[M.Fillmore]

I wonder if an unsportsmanlike penalty keeps the game going.

Nope. Unsportsmanlike conduct is always enforced as a dead ball penalty, even if it occurs in the middle of a play. Thus the game ended at the end of the last play, so there is no enforcement of the dead ball penalties after the play is over.

In Baseball (at least college ball), a coach can be ejected after the game until the umps leave. This happened to Cohen not too long ago. In high school ball they can't flag or eject coach after the game. Although if the coach really shows his butt he can get disciplined by the school or the MHSAA. But his behavior wouldn't affect the game after it ended.

[ShotgunDawg]

Obviously, an offensive personal foul would just be declined by the defense and the game would be over, BUT what if the clocks runs out on the final play, but the defense roughs the passer. Is there an untimed play?

[BulldogBear]

This must rule needs to be changed. Otherwise what would stop the reciever from just shoving down the defender on a ball he knows he won't catch? This gives them a way to get a do-over by breaking the rules. Dumbest crap I've ever heard unless the defense will get a chance to decline. I hope that's the case.

[Homedawg]

Obviously, an offensive personal foul would just be declined by the defense and the game would be over, BUT what if the clocks runs out on the final play, but the defense roughs the passer. Is there an untimed play?

In this case, if the offense declined the penalty the result of the play would be a touchdown. If it were a dead ball personal foul, no need to decline it. And yes to the last there would be an untimed down.

[M.Fillmore]

On roughing the passer on the last play the Offense would get an untimed down after the enforcement of the distance (15 yards from the previous spot if an incomplete pass, tack on 15 yards if the pass is completed).

The both offense and defense can decline a penalty on the last play of the game. So no, the game won't go on and on due to a loophole in the rules.

I see 20 high school games a year (no exaggeration), I have rule books and books on how to interpret the rules, plus I get with college and high school refs on a very regular basis to discuss rules. Some guys play golf. I'm a high school football junkie.

[CJDAWG85]

I haven't seen the play until now... Good grief what a terrible call... IMO the official standing on the goal line looking at the play from behind should be the one to make that call... Normally officials understand that on a play of that significance, on the final play of the game, they don't insert themselves unless something is incredibly obvious... You can't tell me 100% either way that the defender slipped or he was pushed down... But, to me, it looks like he slipped

[ShotgunDawg]

I haven't seen the play until now... Good grief what a terrible call... IMO the official standing on the goal line looking at the play from behind should be the one to make that call... Normally officials understand that on a play of that significance, on the final play of the game, they don't insert themselves unless something is incredibly obvious... You can't tell me 100% either way that the defender slipped or he was pushed down... But, to me, it looks like he slipped

I can see how you would say that, but to me, there isn't anything conclusive in the video to say that it was a terrible call. The defender did fall down, so if it was a terrible call, it is no worse than many of the terrible calls officials make every game. The ref may have missed the call, but sense the defender did actually fall down, I don't think there was any malice behind it. He saw a defender fall down and threw a flag. Happens every weekend.

[CJDAWG85]

Why throw the flag? Offensive PI is a very rare call to begin with... why throw a flag there? Can you see the MC WR extend his arms? It's a monster play in the game and to be quite honest, these officials need to understand that as well. Not saying let anything go, but unless it's incredibly obvious, let the boys decide the game.


Yes, I am from Madison, but I went to St. Joe. Never really cared for BH either.

[CJDAWG85]

Not to mention... the official doesn't throw the flag until the MC WR has caught the ball and has taken a few steps with it. The WR made a move that every WR in HS, NCAA, and NFL makes all the time and that is never called...

[trob115]

Holding could have been called on that play too by the OT towards the end of the play. Go cry somewhere else Bobby.

[CJDAWG85]

Might have been had the official that threw the flag been watching it like he should've been.

[Brahmabull]

In the video, it looks like the WR may have pushed off. So I have no problem with the call. If the rules state they should have played another down then they obviously screwed that up. How out of control was Buubbby Hawwllll?? Heard he had to be restrained.

[CJDAWG85]

He was irate.

[Homedawg]

Not to mention... the official doesn't throw the flag until the MC WR has caught the ball and has taken a few steps with it. The WR made a move that every WR in HS, NCAA, and NFL makes all the time and that is never called...

Actually I watched it on slow motion he is reaching for his flag while the ball is in the air. Just as its about to be caught.

[Homedawg]

In the video, it looks like the WR may have pushed off. So I have no problem with the call. If the rules state they should have played another down then they obviously screwed that up. How out of control was Buubbby Hawwllll?? Heard he had to be restrained.

That's the biggest problem to me, they didn't get another play. Bad call? Probably. Questionable at best. But Madison didn't even know they were supposed to get anothe play, that wasn't their gripe. Their gripe was, It was it was a bad call. They should have known the rule too. That's their jobs.

[notsofarawaydawg]

Sad thing is that this crew has the "assigning official" for this local district as a member of it's crew. He wasn't involved in the flag on that particular play, but he is on this officiating crew and should have known the rules.

[BulldogBear]

Finally got to watch this play. Do you know what the real problem is here?

The freaking safety not making the tackle at the 5 yard line and sealing the win. I couldn't tell what number he is. Good grief I hope we aren't recruiting him.

[tcdog70]

It is mind blowing how many so called Football fans don't know shit about the rules. If you have an accepted penalty on the last play of the game there is an untimed down. notice - key word accepted. If the offense commits a penalty that is a loss of down penalty then there is no untimed down, only exception. Offensive pass interference used to be loss of down , it isn't anymore, that is why it should have been an untimed down.

Now if you look at the Ref that threw the flag, He never moved out of His tracks, He should have been in better position. The fact that the Crew didn't know to have an untimed down is pitiful. The penalty was also questionable .

[ShotgunDawg]

It is mind blowing how many so called Football fans don't know shit about the rules. If you have an accepted penalty on the last play of the game there is an untimed down. notice - key word accepted. If the offense commits a penalty that is a loss of down penalty then there is no untimed down, only exception. Offensive pass interference used to be loss of down , it isn't anymore, that is why it should have been an untimed down.

Now if you look at the Ref that threw the flag, He never moved out of His tracks, He should have been in better position. The fact that the Crew didn't know to have an untimed down is pitiful. The penalty was also questionable .

TC, Per this article the rule is different in the NFL than it is in college or high school, and thats where the confusion lies.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2010-09-12-redskins-cowboys_N.htm