Serious question on our basketball team

[Cowbell]

Im no expert of the game but have watched us diligently since our final four run. So a serious question to all you guys that understand the game better - Does this team not play like they are coached at the junior high level? There is no organization, no leadership, little poise, little maturity, and little scheme. I have zero faith in this team to play at 100% ever. Good coaches get the most out of their players and I havent seen that in a long time here. And no, im not standing on my balcony ledge listening to freebird. I just want to see an organized bunch play with effort. Im to the point that win-loss doesnt matter as much as consistent effort. You guys that think this team can take a run are seeing something I dont. The talent is there, yes. But nothing else is.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

I'm not a basketball expert. But it seems like the best teams seem to have defined roles. Our last two girls teams and our 1996 final four team fit that bill. Sometimes I think these guys are really trying to find their role, or maybe they are pushing back against the role assigned. Sometimes I think that we have several guys who want "to get theirs". Even going back to our final four team, dontae jones had to fill his role before we became really special. Sometimes I feel on this team that if player A takes two shots in a row, that player B is thinking "now it's my turn".

[msugolf]

Im no expert of the game but have watched us diligently since our final four run. So a serious question to all you guys that understand the game better - Does this team not play like they are coached at the junior high level? There is no organization, no leadership, little poise, little maturity, and little scheme. I have zero faith in this team to play at 100% ever. Good coaches get the most out of their players and I havent seen that in a long time here. And no, im not standing on my balcony ledge listening to freebird. I just want to see an organized bunch play with effort. Im to the point that win-loss doesnt matter as much as consistent effort. You guys that think this team can take a run are seeing something I dont. The talent is there, yes. But nothing else is.

Its a combination of a lot of things really. We have a mixture of "individually" talented players that all have several deficiencies. They can each do one or two things really well but severely lack the other components to compliment each other. And the coaching staff has failed at developing those areas where they are weak or haven't put them in a position to offset them. So what you end up with is a roller coaster of a team that doesn't have anything to fall back onto when "their shot" isn't falling. Usually, when good teams are struggling with scoring, the coach will simplify things for them within a system to create opportunities. We don't do that.

[Liverpooldawg]

We just aren't as good as many people here had somehow convinced themselves we were. Basing something off an NIT run isn't always reliable.

[MarketingBully]

This team reminds me of Stans 2011-2012 team that showed so much promise in the pre-conference schedule but faltered down the stretch due to some serious chemistry and leadership issues. This team same thing. The last five games compared to the first thirteen have been night and day awful.

[Cowbell]

We just aren't as good as many people here had somehow convinced themselves we were. Basing something off an NIT run isn't always reliable.

This has nothing to do with my question. Teams that aren?t that good can still play organized, sound, and with 100% effort.

[Dawgcap]

I'm not a basketball expert. But it seems like the best teams seem to have defined roles. Our last two girls teams and our 1996 final four team fit that bill. Sometimes I think these guys are really trying to find their role, or maybe they are pushing back against the role assigned. Sometimes I think that we have several guys who want "to get theirs". Even going back to our final four team, dontae jones had to fill his role before we became really special. Sometimes I feel on this team that if player A takes two shots in a row, that player B is thinking "now it's my turn".
I agree! But the problem is he ( Howland ) hasn’t figured out the options to bench some while still winning games. We have recruited well but the big star guys are all perimeter players. We don’t seem to have a true team that fights and battles. If one gets pulled he doesn’t react in a positive way. What I love about Calipari is he will sit you in a second. Howland has a talented bunch but he has not penalized lack of effort because we don’t have depth to sit several if they aren’t making or not giving effort. Also I truly believe we won the star battle in 3 positions but if they aren’t on,trouble is following. And lastly I think we should work the ball inside back to the outside. But Ado hasn’t been a consistent post player. I hate our offense is totally perimeter based with guys that are inconsistent and when we’re not we don’t feed the hot guy. I give credit D was there but a few minutes of zone or a press would be nice. We’re freaking guard oriented, press some damn it!!

[CJDAWG85]

I completely agree here. I’m not sure if something is going on in the locker room, but the effort tonight was pathetic from everyone, including Howland. Everything is disorganized and chaotic on both sides of the ball.

[BuckyIsAB****]

If you have any experience dealing with kids you know what selfish and lazy looks like. You know what play hard when I want too not all the time looks like. This is it.

Everything you see on the field/court is either taught or allowed.

[Cowbell]

If you have any experience dealing with kids you know what selfish and lazy looks like. You know what play hard when I want too not all the time looks like. This is it.

Everything you see on the field/court is either taught or allowed.

This is exactly what I feel like I am seeing.

Some great thoughts here guys - appreciate the feedback!

[Liverpooldawg]

This has nothing to do with my question. Teams that aren?t that good can still play organized, sound, and with 100% effort..

Not really.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Some teams: the whole is greater than the sum of the parts

Other teams: the whole is less than the sum of the parts

[Liverpooldawg]

Some teams: the whole is greater than the sum of the parts

Other teams: the whole is less than the sum of the parts

We aren't as talented as many think. We have some talent, but it's not well rounded talent.

[mparkerfd20]

Howland can recruit but can't coach X's and O's for shit. That's why he never won it all at UCLA and ultimately got ran off. It doesn't help we have some very selfish guys on our team either.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

There is no “the man” among the upperclassmen. I was hoping Nick W would maybe take on more of that role and fill the void. I think there are some guys that are just passing the time through this semester until they try out for the league, but end up oversees or in D league.

[Dawgcap]

See on several of these things I disagree. We worked harder on D than I was expected. If you’re gonna be lazy D is where you’re lazy. To me we seemed lazy on O because no one trusts the other. I swear I think if you press some with our speed, we get a few steals from being agressive on D we become more aggressive on O. Guys get tired rest them on D with a zone bit end of the day you can’t shoot like shit and win. Turn our guys up and let’s get in some people’s shit!!

[Dawgcap]

D is not where your lazy

[BuckyIsAB****]

.

Not really.

Go watch the 2017 MSU baseball season and tell me they didnt win because they played for each other. They didnt out talent anyone, sure they had some talent but it wasnt overwhelming.

Go watch Northwestern or Iowa (hate to say it) play football. Go back and watch us play in 2010 in football. We won because of the little things intangibles. This team has none of those but a lot of talent

[Dawg61]

We aren't good at the 4&5 positions and it continuously kills us vs good teams.

[basedog]

Liverpool is correct saying we aren't as talented as many say or think. Yes we have some talent but no where elite like Kentucky which they are young, long and talent with depth as usual.


Let's hope we can string some Sec wins together and make the tourney. We are lacking an inside game both from the offense and defense sides. Perry will be a good inside guy one day, he just has to learn and get stronger and more physical.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Well I haven't seen us run an offense since Lawrence Roberts was here.

[Jack Lambert]

We just aren't as good as many people here had somehow convinced themselves we were. Basing something off an NIT run isn't always reliable.

This team is in the middle of a NIT run now. *****

[StarkVegasSteve]

We aren't good at the 4&5 positions and it continuously kills us vs good teams.

This is what kills us. We need to be starting Perry and Woodard. Holman provides nothing defensively and lately has provided nothing offensively. Meanwhile we have Robert Woodard flying all over the floor, I think he had 14 rebounds last night. Perry had 8 rebounds. Holman and Ado combined only had 5 combined rebounds and 0 combined points last night

[HoopsDawg]

We aren't as talented as many think. We have some talent, but it's not well rounded talent.

Well, we really only have 1 good win. Maybe 2. Clemson is 11-7 and we played them without their best player.

[shannondawg]

3 for 20 sure didn't help. I thought the D played fairly well last night, and if the shots were falling probably would have intensified.

[Political Hack]

I've played a lot of ball. Coached at several levels. Played against some of the greatest players in the world.

They play like an NBA team during the regular season. No intensity in the paint. No diving after loose balls. No focus on their defensive responsibilities. Poor shot discipline. Etc...

On top of that, we have 3-4 guys that all think they can just throw it on their back and win. Then we go 1-14 from 3-point land out the gate. There's a lot of issues stopping this team from being as good as they could be, but the inability to understand the value of a possession (especially down the stretch) is the biggest issue to me. We can't have wasted possessions as much as we do late into the 2nd half. It's damn near unbearable to watch.

[StarkVegasSteve]

3 for 20 sure didn't help. I thought the D played fairly well last night, and if the shots were falling probably would have intensified.


3 for 20 was the killer. If we even shoot 8 or 9 for 20 then we're in the game down the stretch and maybe even pull out a W. Defensive effort wasn't the problem tonight. I've been satisfied with our improved defense since the first half of the Florida game. I've thought that ever since that we've looked a lot better. Still feel that the lineup going forward needs to be Nick/Lamar, Q, Carter, Woodard, and Perry. It just doesn't seem like the continuity is there when both Nick and Lamar are in there. One of them needs to run PG for the second line.

[Commercecomet24]

I've played a lot of ball. Coached at several levels. Played against some of the greatest players in the world.

They play like an NBA team during the regular season. No intensity in the paint. No diving after loose balls. No focus on their defensive responsibilities. Poor shot discipline. Etc...

On top of that, we have 3-4 guys that all think they can just throw it on their back and win. Then we go 1-14 from 3-point land out the gate. There's a lot of issues stopping this team from being as good as they could be, but the inability to understand the value of a possession (especially down the stretch) is the biggest issue to me. We can't have wasted possessions as much as we do late into the 2nd half. It's damn near unbearable to watch.

This is in a nut shell. We seem to only play hard when we want to play hard. The lack of intensity on defense and as you said the way we handle possessions in crunch time is extremely frustrating. Well said, Hack.

[sleepy dawg]

Im no expert of the game but have watched us diligently since our final four run. So a serious question to all you guys that understand the game better - Does this team not play like they are coached at the junior high level? There is no organization, no leadership, little poise, little maturity, and little scheme. I have zero faith in this team to play at 100% ever. Good coaches get the most out of their players and I havent seen that in a long time here. And no, im not standing on my balcony ledge listening to freebird. I just want to see an organized bunch play with effort. Im to the point that win-loss doesnt matter as much as consistent effort. You guys that think this team can take a run are seeing something I dont. The talent is there, yes. But nothing else is.

We're not that talented. We're alright. We're probably mid-pack in the SEC. The one year we actually finished 2nd in the SEC in recruiting, the majority of those guys are off the team. The rest of the years we've finished mid-pack to the bottom of the SEC in recruiting. We aren't out talenting anybody we play, and we're coaching at about a mid-level in conference too. We're a decently talented and decently coached team. We aren't really special or great anywhere. Any team is capable of catching fire though. If we can hold things together then we could get lucky and have a decent post season run, but it won't be b/c we have all this amazing talent like many seem to refer to.

We aren't coached like a junior high team. We're coached like an average power 5 team. And I don't know that I've ever seen MSU get the most out of their players. I was too young to fully understand that when we made our final 4 run, but certainly haven't done it since Stansbury was the coach. The 2004 team would probably be the closest, but I think that leadership came from other schools via transfers, not from Stansbury. Stansbury has less leadership ability than any coach we've ever had.

[msstate7]

We've played 5 sec games... of the 5, which teams were more talented? Kentucky is it imo. Talent isn't the main issue

[StarkVegasSteve]

We're not that talented. We're alright. We're probably mid-pack in the SEC. The one year we actually finished 2nd in the SEC in recruiting, the majority of those guys are off the team. The rest of the years we've finished mid-pack to the bottom of the SEC in recruiting. We aren't out talenting anybody we play, and we're coaching at about a mid-level in conference too. We're a decently talented and decently coached team. We aren't really special or great anywhere. Any team is capable of catching fire though. If we can hold things together then we could get lucky and have a decent post season run, but it won't be b/c we have all this amazing talent like many seem to refer to.

We aren't coached like a junior high team. We're coached like an average power 5 team. And I don't know that I've ever seen MSU get the most out of their players. I was too young to fully understand that when we made our final 4 run, but certainly haven't done it since Stansbury was the coach. The 2004 team would probably be the closest, but I think that leadership came from other schools via transfers, not from Stansbury. Stansbury has less leadership ability than any coach we've ever had.

THIS. Lawrence Roberts and Shane Power were the unquestioned leaders on that team. Add that with having gamers like Bowers and Winsome and its no wonder that team was as talented as they were. I think people sometimes forget just how special that team was. I mean that team was 14-2 in conference and 8-0 on the road. To go undefeated in conference play on the road is absolutely unheard of nowadays.

[dawgday166]

THIS. Lawrence Roberts and Shane Power were the unquestioned leaders on that team. Add that with having gamers like Bowers and Winsome and its no wonder that team was as talented as they were. I think people sometimes forget just how special that team was. I mean that team was 14-2 in conference and 8-0 on the road. To go undefeated in conference play on the road is absolutely unheard of nowadays.

Should've been at least an Elite 8 team and probably a Final Four team. Great in regular season and crapped out big time in postseason. Bumped in 1st game of SEC Tourney, 2 and out in NCAAs.

BTW ... Timmy Bowers was as much a leader or moreso than anyone on that team. Frazier was still a Jr but man that guy could shut down the other team's best guard ... regardless of who it was.

There is no one on this team in those categories.

[HoopsDawg]

It just doesn't seem like the continuity is there when both Nick and Lamar are in there. One of them needs to run PG for the second line.

Howland definitely needs to stagger Peters and Nick. It's painfully obvious. When they do play together, Nick needs to be the PG.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Should've been at least an Elite 8 team and probably a Final Four team. Great in regular season and crapped out big time in postseason. Bumped in 1st game of SEC Tourney, 2 and out in NCAAs.

BTW ... Timmy Bowers was as much a leader or moreso than anyone on that team. Frazier was still a Jr but man that guy could shut down the other team's best guard ... regardless of who it was.

There is no one on this team in those categories.

That team had the makeup to be a Final 4 team. Still to this day baffles me that Stans screwed that one up. But you are correct in that we don't have anyone that is a shutdown defender on this team. I'd love to say Nick, but he gets into foul trouble too easily and no one else can sit down and guard anyone.

[MarketingBully]

We're not that talented. We're alright. We're probably mid-pack in the SEC. The one year we actually finished 2nd in the SEC in recruiting, the majority of those guys are off the team. The rest of the years we've finished mid-pack to the bottom of the SEC in recruiting. We aren't out talenting anybody we play, and we're coaching at about a mid-level in conference too. We're a decently talented and decently coached team. We aren't really special or great anywhere. Any team is capable of catching fire though. If we can hold things together then we could get lucky and have a decent post season run, but it won't be b/c we have all this amazing talent like many seem to refer to.

We aren't coached like a junior high team. We're coached like an average power 5 team. And I don't know that I've ever seen MSU get the most out of their players. I was too young to fully understand that when we made our final 4 run, but certainly haven't done it since Stansbury was the coach. The 2004 team would probably be the closest, but I think that leadership came from other schools via transfers, not from Stansbury. Stansbury has less leadership ability than any coach we've ever had.

If you guys can’t see the talent on this team, I really don’t know what to tell you.

[Commercecomet24]

We've played 5 sec games... of the 5, which teams were more talented? Kentucky is it imo. Talent isn't the main issue

Yeah I don't think talent deficiency is the problem. When this team wants to get after it they can play with anyone. Here's hoping they get it cranked up and finish strong.

[dawgday166]

If you guys can?t see the talent on this team, I really don?t know what to tell you.

It's pretty decent but it isn't elite. In SEC probably should be in upper third or just below. Holman is the most purely talented guy of the starters.

[MarketingBully]

Howland definitely needs to stagger Peters and Nick. It's painfully obvious. When they do play together, Nick needs to be the PG.

The biggest issue we have on this team since the SEC season started is Holman has refused to play defense. We win both the South Carolina and Ole Miss games if he plays a lick of defense on his man. His men combined for 51 points in those two games alone. In man to man defense, it’s hard as hell to play 4 on 5. It’s time for Perry and Woodard to start over Ado and Holman. Holman’s minutes should diminish into nothing until he gets head out of his ass and starts playing up to his potential.

[dawgday166]

Yeah I don't think talent deficiency is the problem. When this team wants to get after it they can play with anyone. Here's hoping they get it cranked up and finish strong.

Anyone might be a stretch. Most in SEC would be a better description.

[HoopsDawg]

The biggest issue we have on this team since the SEC season started is Holman has refused to play defense. We win both the South Carolina and Ole Miss games if he plays a lick of defense on his man. His men combined for 51 points in those two games alone. In man to man defense, it’s hard as hell to play 4 on 5. It’s time for Perry and Woodard to start over Ado and Holman. Holman’s minutes should diminish into nothing until he gets head out of his ass and starts playing up to his potential. it's definitely a huge issue. Everyone sees it. Howland sees it but doesn't do anything about it.

[MarketingBully]

It's pretty decent but it isn't elite. In SEC probably should be in upper third or just below. Holman is the most purely talented guy of the starters.

We have 3 top 30 players and 6 top 100 players. That’s good for top 4 talent in the league. Just because they are playing like ass doesn’t mean they aren’t talented. We’ve played like ass all five games in the SEC and still had chances to win 2 more games and blew out a hapless Vandy team. We’re playing like shit and still in most games. If we didn’t have any talent playing like we are, we’d get blown out more times then not.

[Commercecomet24]

Anyone might be a stretch. Most in SEC would be a better description.

No we can play with anyone accept maybe the very elite. Heck we were only down by a few last night on the road against uk late in the second half before we decided to just coast the rest of the way.

ETA. The key is when they want to play hard.

[dawgday166]

We have 3 top 30 players and 6 top 100 players. That’s good for top 4 talent in the league. Just because they are playing like ass doesn’t mean they aren’t talented. We’ve played like ass all five games in the SEC and still had chances to win 2 more games and blew out a hapless Vandy team. We’re playing like shit and still in most games. If we didn’t have any talent playing like we are, we’d get blown out more times then not.

I take it you mean in the recruiting rankings?

I'm not saying there isn't some talent there, but everyone on here acts like this is an Elite 8 or better team and it ain't. Even if they play at max effort ... which they NEVER do. Probably not even Sweet 16 unless we get a good draw AND they play at max effort.

They're soft and lackadaisical. Peters thinks he's an NBA guard and I don't think he's even that close. So does Nick to some degree. Bowers and Frazier are light years better than these 2 and they never sniffed the NBA ... although Frazier came pretty close.

[dawgday166]

No we can play with anyone accept maybe the very elite. Heck we were only down by a few last night on the road against uk late in the second half before we decided to just coast the rest of the way.

ETA. The key is when they want to play hard.

Penn St. smoked us last year and they weren't that great themselves. They were longer and their guards totally shut down ours.

[msstate7]

No we can play with anyone accept maybe the very elite. Heck we were only down by a few last night on the road against uk late in the second half before we decided to just coast the rest of the way.

ETA. The key is when they want to play hard.

Just a simple change in strategy would help. Refusing to back off our crappy man defense is a killer every close game. Coach K went big and played zone against Virginia even though he doesn't like it. Sometimes it's best to swallow pride and do what's best for the team

[Commercecomet24]

Just a simple change in strategy would help. Refusing to back off our crappy man defense is a killer every close game. Coach K went big and played zone against Virginia even though he doesn't like it. Sometimes it's best to swallow pride and do what's best for the team

It sure couldn't hurt. Sometimes you just have to do something a little different if to only shake things up a bit.

[shannondawg]

The biggest issue we have on this team since the SEC season started is Holman has refused to play defense. We win both the South Carolina and Ole Miss games if he plays a lick of defense on his man. His men combined for 51 points in those two games alone. In man to man defense, it?s hard as hell to play 4 on 5. It?s time for Perry and Woodard to start over Ado and Holman. Holman?s minutes should diminish into nothing until he gets head out of his ass and starts playing up to his potential.

Holman and Ado's minutes have gone down , last night he had less than Perry, and Holmans 20 to Woodards 17. Be interesting to see what happens Sat.

Is there a worse color guy than Vitale? I just turned the sound off. Got completely unwired with all the cut aways to Cal on the sidelines, he had about as much face time as the action on the court.

[BrunswickDawg]

Just a simple change in strategy would help. Refusing to back off our crappy man defense is a killer every close game. Coach K went big and played zone against Virginia even though he doesn't like it. Sometimes it's best to swallow pride and do what's best for the team

I totally get coaches wanting to use Man as a base defense, but I'll never understand coaches only playing 1 type of defense in basketball. Zone vs. Man is all about match ups and neutralizing strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes, your team just can't handle man with certain match ups.

[Dawgology]

We just aren't as good as many people here had somehow convinced themselves we were. Basing something off an NIT run isn't always reliable.

We are a VERY talented team. We are a VERY poorly coached team.

[Dawgology]

Holman and Ado's minutes have gone down , last night he had less than Perry, and Holmans 20 to Woodards 17. Be interesting to see what happens Sat.

Is there a worse color guy than Vitale? I just turned the sound off. Got completely unwired with all the cut aways to Cal on the sidelines, he had about as much face time as the action on the court.

Vitale has one of the most annoying voices in all of sports commentating. And he always starts preaching to "the kids" about how to play basketball. Really strange fella.

[confucius say]

Out girls are so much more enjoyable to watch. Wins and losses aside, just a better brand of basketball. Our girls, mostly, play like they are desperate to win. Our guys play with effort, but no purpose.

It's CBH's job to get our guys to buy in, play together, play for each other, and be desperate to win. He ain't doing it, yet.

[SaveFerris]

We don't have any effective "Big Men" down low. Sure they are big but only in terms of length. They (Ado/Holman) lack muscle and aren't tough.
They get pushed around and aren't built to "body up" w/ the bigs in this league. They don't pose any threat to post up and use their body size and strength to out muscle anyone for a bucket or a rebound. We are a guard heavy team that has to penetrate and either create a shot or look to pass to one of them, but if Ado catches it cleanly and hesitates and tries to dribble, you can chalk it up as a turnover, the guy just doesn't have the agility although he has improved.

[MarketingBully]

Out girls are so much more enjoyable to watch. Wins and losses aside, just a better brand of basketball. Our girls, mostly, play like they are desperate to win. Our guys play with effort, but no purpose.

It's CBH's job to get our guys to buy in, play together, play for each other, and be desperate to win. He ain't doing it, yet.

We played that way for 13 games and went 12-1. We have switched off once the conference season started. If we had played the first 13 games like we had the last five, our record would be around 10-8 right now. Likewise, if we had played the last five like the first 13 we’d be 16-2. It’s all about perspective but something switched off during that nine day stretch between the BYU game and South Carolina game.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

I take it you mean in the recruiting rankings?

I'm not saying there isn't some talent there, but everyone on here acts like this is an Elite 8 or better team and it ain't. Even if they play at max effort ... which they NEVER do. Probably not even Sweet 16 unless we get a good draw AND they play at max effort.

They're soft and lackadaisical. Peters thinks he's an NBA guard and I don't think he's even that close. So does Nick to some degree. Bowers and Frazier are light years better than these 2 and they never sniffed the NBA ... although Frazier came pretty close.

Most of those problems are with coaching, not talent. Peters and Holman have had unbiased 3rd parties mention them getting drafted. Nick was a 5* and has great athleticism. Q was one of the top Fr in the conference when he got here. Ado was a 4* and has above average athleticism.

The fact Ado hasn't developed is on coaching. The fact Q hasn't developed is on coaching. The fact Holman is lazy as hell is on coaching. The fact Nick and Peters don't know their rolls is on coaching. The fact Carter won't lift a weight bigger than 2lb is on coaching. The fact we blow so many defensive assignments is on coaching. The fact we keep taking 3s even when we're 1-14 is on coaching. The fact we have such a horrible rotation management is coaching.

But the raw talent is there, and you'll be hard pressed to find 3 SEC rosters with a better profile.

[MarketingBully]

Holman and Ado's minutes have gone down , last night he had less than Perry, and Holmans 20 to Woodards 17. Be interesting to see what happens Sat.

Is there a worse color guy than Vitale? I just turned the sound off. Got completely unwired with all the cut aways to Cal on the sidelines, he had about as much face time as the action on the court.

Yep and even reducing his minutes he refuses to play defense. PJ Washington made 3-5 threes when Holman was guarding him which basically was Washington taking the 3 wide open. Before last night, Washington was 1-20 from 3.

[HancockCountyDog]

I think right now the whole of the team is less than the sum of the parts.

This happens in basketball, I think Ben can work it out.

So far there have only been a few bad losses if we keep holding serve, we will be fine.

[MarketingBully]

Most of those problems are with coaching, not talent. Peters and Holman have had unbiased 3rd parties mention them getting drafted. Nick was a 5* and has great athleticism. Q was one of the top Fr in the conference when he got here. Ado was a 4* and has above average athleticism.

The fact Ado hasn't developed is on coaching. The fact Q hasn't developed is on coaching. The fact Holman is lazy as hell is on coaching. The fact Nick and Peters don't know their rolls is on coaching. The fact Carter won't lift a weight bigger than 2lb is on coaching. The fact we blow so many defensive assignments is on coaching. The fact we keep taking 3s even when we're 1-14 is on coaching. The fact we have such a horrible rotation management is coaching.

But the raw talent is there, and you'll be hard pressed to find 3 SEC rosters with a better profile.

Agree 100% on this.

[basedog]

Holman and Ado's minutes have gone down , last night he had less than Perry, and Holmans 20 to Woodards 17. Be interesting to see what happens Sat.

Is there a worse color guy than Vitale? I just turned the sound off. Got completely unwired with all the cut aways to Cal on the sidelines, he had about as much face time as the action on the court.

Good points about Holman and Ado, neither have much inside game as for as scoring in the paint. Like I've stated, we have talent on the perimeter and when they shoot well we can beat many. On the flip side, we closed the gap on Kentucky last night and we went into the tank without outside scoring. This is when u need inside play who are able to score, we don't have this yet. I hope to see more of the two freshmen with minutes.

[dawgday166]

Most of those problems are with coaching, not talent. Peters and Holman have had unbiased 3rd parties mention them getting drafted. Nick was a 5* and has great athleticism. Q was one of the top Fr in the conference when he got here. Ado was a 4* and has above average athleticism.

The fact Ado hasn't developed is on coaching. The fact Q hasn't developed is on coaching. The fact Holman is lazy as hell is on coaching. The fact Nick and Peters don't know their rolls is on coaching. The fact Carter won't lift a weight bigger than 2lb is on coaching. The fact we blow so many defensive assignments is on coaching. The fact we keep taking 3s even when we're 1-14 is on coaching. The fact we have such a horrible rotation management is coaching.

But the raw talent is there, and you'll be hard pressed to find 3 SEC rosters with a better profile.

We have some talent but, while I haven't watched the whole or even most of the SEC this year, I think there are a lot of teams (wild guess would be at least 8, maybe 10 or so) that probably have just as much talent or very close to it. So we have to bring our A game every night ... which we very rarely do. I do agree that coaching is a lot of that equation.

Peters is not long enough or quick enough to play in the league. Go look at stats against Penn St from last year. He had 7 pts, Nick had 5, and Q had 6. PSU was longer and quicker than we were at guard. He couldn't beat them off the dribble either. Their guards just literally shut our guards out and were better. If Peters ran into Winsome Frazier ... it would really be ugly for him.

Holman does have a ton of upside with his length, hops, and range ... his effort is what's holding him back.

We should be better off than we are now tho IMO.

[MarketingBully]

We have some talent but, while I haven't watched the whole or even most of the SEC this year, I think there are a lot of teams (wild guess would be at least 8, maybe 10 or so) that probably have just as much talent or very close to it. So we have to bring our A game every night ... which we very rarely do. I do agree that coaching is a lot of that equation.

Peters is not long enough or quick enough to play in the league. Go look at stats against Penn St from last year. He had 7 pts, Nick had 5, and Q had 6. PSU was longer and quicker than we were at guard. He couldn't beat them off the dribble either. Their guards just literally shut our guards out and were better. If Peters ran into Winsome Frazier ... it would really be ugly for him.

Holman does have a ton of upside with his length, hops, and range ... his effort is what's holding him back.

We should be better off than we are now tho IMO.

Oh hell no 8 or 10? That’s an asinine statement and shows you really don’t watch or pay attention to SEC basketball much at all. As far as recruiting goes, there’s only 1 team that has head and shoulders better talent then we do and it’s Kentucky who’s head and shoulders better then everyone else. The next most talent is LSU with us, Auburn, and Florida right after that. Then you have Alabama and then pretty much everyone else. Just because we have played like shit doesn’t mean we don’t have a shit ton of talent. Ole Miss and South Carolina right now are playing out of their minds to have records like they do. That’s not sustainable. When Ole Miss plays like shit, they get blown out by Alabama. They played average against LSU and LSU still beat them by 14. They played lights out against us and we played poorly in spots and we still only lost by 4. If we ever get back to playing the way we did pre-conference schedule you will see what I mean. But to say 8-10 teams in the SEC have as much talent as we do shows you don’t pay attention to SEC basketball.

[sleepy dawg]

We have 3 top 30 players and 6 top 100 players. That?s good for top 4 talent in the league. Just because they are playing like ass doesn?t mean they aren?t talented. We?ve played like ass all five games in the SEC and still had chances to win 2 more games and blew out a hapless Vandy team. We?re playing like shit and still in most games. If we didn?t have any talent playing like we are, we?d get blown out more times then not.


According to what? Fantasy? Well over half the starters playing in the SEC were top 100 recruits. This isn't that impressive in college basketball. In college basketball, you need at least 1 or 2 elite guys and we don't have 1 of those.
According to 247, we have 1 top 30 player and that's Nick and he was 29. Over half the league have a higher ranked guy on their team right now.

Here the breakdown according to 247 since 2015. I have removed any player not still on their roster, so this only counts active players. However, I am missing Jucos from this list, so a couple of schools would be a little higher if those were listed, such as ole miss.



Team
Top 25 Recruits
Top 50
Top 100


kentucky
6
7
8


lsu
1
4
6


auburn
1
3
6


florida
1
1
7


vandy
2
2
3


MSU
0
2
4


bama
0
2
4


am
0
1
5


mizz
1
2
2


ark
0
1
1


georgia
0
0
2


om
0
0
0


tenn
0
0
0


sc
0
0
0

[dawgday166]

According to what? Fantasy? Well over half the starters playing in the SEC were top 100 recruits. This isn't that impressive in college basketball. In college basketball, you need at least 1 or 2 elite guys and we don't have 1 of those.
According to 247, we have 1 top 30 player and that's Nick and he was 29. Over half the league have a higher ranked guy on their team right now.

Here the breakdown according to 247 since 2015. I have removed any player not still on their roster, so this only counts active players. However, I am missing Jucos from this list, so a couple of schools would be a little higher if those were listed, such as ole miss.



Team
Top 25 Recruits
Top 50
Top 100


kentucky
6
7
8


lsu
1
4
6


auburn
1
3
6


florida
1
1
7


vandy
2
2
3


MSU
0
2
4


bama
0
2
4


am
0
1
5


mizz
1
2
2


ark
0
1
1


georgia
0
0
2


om
0
0
0


tenn
0
0
0


sc
0
0
0



No, No, No ... we have a "shit ton" of talent *****

So I believe my wild guess was 8 to maybe 10 teams. From your list you could make the argument that down that list to Mizzou at #9 is mostly equally talented from #4 thru 9. And we're sitting around #6.

[msstate7]

So tenn is tied for the least talented team in the sec

[dawgday166]

So tenn is tied for the least talented team in the sec

Didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Now that's coaching.

ETA: TN & SC do have really good coaches seems like. I didn't expect Barnes to do quite as well as he has at TN but he's doing it. And Martin at SC seems to be pretty decent ... taking a team to Final Four once before.

[MarketingBully]

According to what? Fantasy? Well over half the starters playing in the SEC were top 100 recruits. This isn't that impressive in college basketball. In college basketball, you need at least 1 or 2 elite guys and we don't have 1 of those.
According to 247, we have 1 top 30 player and that's Nick and he was 29. Over half the league have a higher ranked guy on their team right now.

Here the breakdown according to 247 since 2015. I have removed any player not still on their roster, so this only counts active players. However, I am missing Jucos from this list, so a couple of schools would be a little higher if those were listed, such as ole miss.



Team
Top 25 Recruits
Top 50
Top 100


kentucky
6
7
8


lsu
1
4
6


auburn
1
3
6


florida
1
1
7


vandy
2
2
3


MSU
0
2
4


bama
0
2
4


am
0
1
5


mizz
1
2
2


ark
0
1
1


georgia
0
0
2


om
0
0
0


tenn
0
0
0


sc
0
0
0



4 stars or higher on our roster (at least 120 or better player)

2015 - Q, Holman
2016 - Carter, Peters, Ado
2017 - Nick Weatherspoon
2018 - Perry, Woodard, Stewart

That’s 9 4 star players or better. Recalibrate your rankings to include 4 stars or better.

The only ones on our roster who are not 4 stars are: EJ Datcher, Feazell, and Jethro T. Also, Vandy doesn’t have Darius Garland and A&M has kicked several of those players off their roster so you have some teams inflated in your hastiness to try to prove me wrong.

[MarketingBully]

So tenn is tied for the least talented team in the sec

Yes, that’s why what Barnes is doing there is quite remarkable.

[MarketingBully]

Also Perry was a McDonald’s AA yet ranked 31 in 247’s final rankings. That’s just retarded.

[msstate7]

Yes, that’s why what Barnes is doing there is quite remarkable.

I don't believe that. I love recruiting rankings, but only to an extent. Once they make the sec, I use my eyes to validate/invalidate what recruiting rankings say . Recruiting rankings would tell you our defense in football is probably middle of the pack in the sec. Tenn is not bottom of the barrel in sec basketball talent. We were more talented than Florida and vandy. Kentucky was certainly much more talented than us

[Political Hack]

Also Perry was a McDonald’s AA yet ranked 31 in 247’s final rankings. That’s just retarded.

Our recruits this year have been less than impressive regardless of their affinity for Big Macs.

[MarketingBully]

I don't believe that. I love recruiting rankings, but only to an extent. Once they make the sec, I use my eyes to validate/invalidate what recruiting rankings say . Recruiting rankings would tell you our defense in football is probably middle of the pack in the sec. Tenn is not bottom of the barrel in sec basketball talent. We were more talented than Florida and vandy. Kentucky was certainly much more talented than us

Grant Williams is like Lawrence Roberts imo. Admiral Schofield is a great college player. Both of those guys are great college players and Barnes has them playing well. No one on that team will play on the next level. Once Williams and Schofield are gone from that team Barnes won’t have shit.

[dawgday166]

I agree on eye test. Gotta take your emotions out of it when doing that tho.

[dawgday166]

Grant Williams is like Lawrence Roberts imo. Admiral Schofield is a great college player. Both of those guys are great college players and Barnes has them playing well. No one on that team will play on the next level. Once Williams and Schofield are gone from that team Barnes won’t have shit.

Who on our team will play at the next level? I don't see anyone I think will make it unless the light bulb comes on for Holman. Maybe Perry too.

[MarketingBully]

Our recruits this year have been less than impressive regardless of their affinity for Big Macs.

That’s on Howland. Perry is 6’10 and 245 and Woodard is 6’7 230. Those guys are ready to play now. They should start given how Ado and Holman have been playing.

[MarketingBully]

Who on our team will play at the next level? I don't see anyone I think will make it unless the light bulb comes on for Holman. Maybe Perry too.

Reggie Perry and Nick Weatherspoon for starters. I think Perry will make a huge jump from freshman to sophomore year. I think more will be on the radar if we make the NCAA tournament. That’s the key.

[msstate7]

Grant Williams is like Lawrence Roberts imo. Admiral Schofield is a great college player. Both of those guys are great college players and Barnes has them playing well. No one on that team will play on the next level. Once Williams and Schofield are gone from that team Barnes won’t have shit.

But who cares how they project? I'm judging them on their college talent.

[dawgday166]

Reggie Perry and Nick Weatherspoon for starters. I think Perry will make a huge jump from freshman to sophomore year. I think more will be on the radar if we make the NCAA tournament. That’s the key.

Nick might have an outside shot. I ain't seeing it right now and still don't think he has the length. But he still has 2 years to develop further. I could see Perry making it over anyone on the roster at current time.

[sleepy dawg]

4 stars or higher on our roster (at least 120 or better player)

2015 - Q, Holman
2016 - Carter, Peters, Ado
2017 - Nick Weatherspoon
2018 - Perry, Woodard, Stewart

That?s 9 4 star players or better. Recalibrate your rankings to include 4 stars or better.

The only ones on our roster who are not 4 stars are: EJ Datcher, Feazell, and Jethro T. Also, Vandy doesn?t have Darius Garland and A&M has kicked several of those players off their roster so you have some teams inflated in your hastiness to try to prove me wrong.

You re-calibrate it. What difference does it make? Everybody else will have that many more too. 4 stars aren't elite talent in basketball. This isn't football recruiting. When only 5 guys are playing at a time, if you don't have an elite guy or 2, it's not that impressive. Our talent within the conference is about average no matter how you look at it.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Oh hell no 8 or 10? That?s an asinine statement and shows you really don?t watch or pay attention to SEC basketball much at all. As far as recruiting goes, there?s only 1 team that has head and shoulders better talent then we do and it?s Kentucky who?s head and shoulders better then everyone else. The next most talent is LSU with us, Auburn, and Florida right after that. Then you have Alabama and then pretty much everyone else. Just because we have played like shit doesn?t mean we don?t have a shit ton of talent. Ole Miss and South Carolina right now are playing out of their minds to have records like they do. That?s not sustainable. When Ole Miss plays like shit, they get blown out by Alabama. They played average against LSU and LSU still beat them by 14. They played lights out against us and we played poorly in spots and we still only lost by 4. If we ever get back to playing the way we did pre-conference schedule you will see what I mean. But to say 8-10 teams in the SEC have as much talent as we do shows you don?t pay attention to SEC basketball.

Tennessee would beat us like a drum

[MarketingBully]

Tennessee would beat us like a drum

Like they are doing to Vandy right now...

[Dawg61]

I don't believe that. I love recruiting rankings, but only to an extent. Once they make the sec, I use my eyes to validate/invalidate what recruiting rankings say . Recruiting rankings would tell you our defense in football is probably middle of the pack in the sec. Tenn is not bottom of the barrel in sec basketball talent. We were more talented than Florida and vandy. Kentucky was certainly much more talented than us

Tennessee has a ton of guys that were miss-rated coming outta HS. All of their top 7 players were rated 3*. None of them in reality are 3* players. Grant Williams is a 5* college player. He is in the running for the Wooden award for POY. Schofield, Alexander, Bone, Bowden are all very good players as well. 4* type players. Barnes did a phenomenal job recruiting all of these guys. He did get lucky as well so we will see just how good Barnes is when this batch turns over but it's still gonna be a couple years before Tennessee might start falling off again.

[MarketingBully]

You re-calibrate it. What difference does it make? Everybody else will have that many more too. 4 stars aren't elite talent in basketball. This isn't football recruiting. When only 5 guys are playing at a time, if you don't have an elite guy or 2, it's not that impressive. Our talent within the conference is about average no matter how you look at it.

I’m not even going to debate this anymore. If you want to judge us because we have played like shit for five games fine. How we play with no effort and one player in particular no effort on defense is not a reflection of how much talent we have. That 2011-2012 team Stans had had two NBA players on it yet didn’t make the NCAA tournament. You can be talented and still be a bad basketball team. The difference is when we play with effort and intensity we can beat anyone. Likewise when we play like shit anyone can beat us. Howland can’t seem to make this team play even up to the standard we set in the first 13 games we played. We shut off once we started playing games in 2019.

[MarketingBully]

Tennessee has a ton of guys that were miss-rated coming outta HS. All of their top 7 players were rated 3*. None of them in reality are 3* players. Grant Williams is a 5* college player. He is in the running for the Wooden award for POY. Schofield, Alexander, Bone, Bowden are all very good players as well. 4* type players. Barnes did a phenomenal job recruiting all of these guys. He did get lucky as well so we will see just how good Barnes is when this batch turns over but it's still gonna be a couple years before Tennessee might start falling off again.

I’ll give you Williams and Schofield were misrated but no way in hell the others were misrated. Barnes identified a number of players that would buy into his system and play his style and largely ignored the ratings system. Those collection of players were awful two years ago.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Like they are doing to Vandy right now...

They would do us the same way. Not bc they are vastly more talented but because they are tough and have an identity, we dont.

We are at our best with Peters handling the ball off the dribble. Little Spoon should come off the bench and do it when Peters gets tired. Thats our best fits.

[shannondawg]

Just saying, we beat Vandy by 16, and Vols beat em by 5 both at their place.

Not that it means anything when we play the Vols.

[Pit Bull]

At Vandy, we played with effort. At KY, we looked lackadaisical. Of course the talent difference between VU and KY had a lot to do with it. At least we didn't dig an early hole at Vandy and dug a real nice one at KY. Getting behind by a large amount of points is not good for our team. We are not a comeback type team. When we dig big holes early, we're almost always toast.

[Cooterpoot]

Been Howland is the basketball version of the Adidas bat.

[biggun]

I've played a lot of ball. Coached at several levels. Played against some of the greatest players in the world.

They play like an NBA team during the regular season. No intensity in the paint. No diving after loose balls. No focus on their defensive responsibilities. Poor shot discipline. Etc...

On top of that, we have 3-4 guys that all think they can just throw it on their back and win. Then we go 1-14 from 3-point land out the gate. There's a lot of issues stopping this team from being as good as they could be, but the inability to understand the value of a possession (especially down the stretch) is the biggest issue to me. We can't have wasted possessions as much as we do late into the 2nd half. It's damn near unbearable to watch.


100% Agree, this team is near impossible to watch. Our horrendous shot selection, lack of defense either in not giving help side, or doubling for no reason thus leaving someone wide open or just a lack of overall defensive intensity makes watching this team damn near impossible. Q has been a good Bulldog but you can count on him for at least 4 to 5 lazy turnovers plus 3 to 4 contested drives to the basket with little to zero chances of finishing where he always is crying to the ref which is almost like more turnovers. He has always been a huge liability on the defensive end but his laid back approach does not help this team at all. He is a Senior but his potential as a freshman has never materialized beyond what we see game in and game out.
Holman thinks he is a guard with his terrible shot selection.
Peter?s attitude and shot selection is shit
Nick?s game is stuck in neutral and is not a PG.
Ado is a HUGE liability on the offensive end and is very average on D.
Carter has played pretty well but is pretty much a 1 trick pony

Coaching??? Not sure if Howland has a plan or just let?s them scrimmage everyday. Our man to man defense is a joke as is our defense against the pick and roll which every opponent simply destroys. I assume they are being taught to defend like we do but if so, Oh My God!!!

Add it all up and The Dogs have an outside shot at another run to The Big Apple NIT Final 4!

And then let?s go steal Kermit Davis Jr. from the Rebs!!! A hire that should have been made after Stans.