On the subject of Kermit Davis and if we should have hired him instead of Ray

[Irondawg]

The easy answer is yes because basically anybody would have been better than poor Rick. But at the point in the hire (after the 2011-2012) season Kermit's track record wasn't very impressive lately outside of the 2011-2012 season.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Davis#Head_coaching_record

So I don't think most fans would have been all that excited about hiring Kermit at that time other than bringing him home. Then it was hard to argue against the Howland hire other than wondering what happened at UCLA even though Kermit had improved his resume.

Seems like Kermit figured something out though in that time period and makes me curious what happened. Did he simply recruit better for make some changes to his coaching philosophy that paid huge returns. I think were were all impressed with the play of OM in multiple areas of the game.

[confucius say]

Difference was just they shot it better from outside. Switch three point percentages and it's a 15 point swing. We dominated the boards.

[basedog]

Difference was just they shot it better from outside. Switch three point percentages and it's a 15 point swing. We dominated the boards.

+1

[Choctaw Dawg]

They are a well coached team that beat us, all that definitely has to do with coaching and development. I'm hoping that we can turn a corner and start winning again because I'm thinking our players are either extremely hardheaded or not well coached and developed.

[Pollodawg]

meh. He’ll always be MSU at heart. Why would anybody want to be affiliated with OM basketball when they had other options? When you think basketball in MS, you don’t think Ole Miss.

[Captain Falcon]

Kermit at least had head coaching experience back then. Ray was an assistant at a middle of the road ACC program. I understand Kermit not being our first choice and Ray wasn’t either. It’s well documented that Stricklin was turned down by Steve Prohm and Bryce Drew, among others. But he was so scared of possible NCAA issues that he stayed away from Kermit and Kenny Payne and went with a guy who was on absolutely nobody’s radar. He’s about to get fired from SEMO for crying out loud.

I understand going with Howland over Kermit at the time. That coaching search moved really fast but if Howland had been unavailable or uninterested then I bet Kermit might have been the guy.

[basedog]

meh. He’ll always be MSU at heart. Why would anybody want to be affiliated with OM basketball when they had other options? When you think basketball in MS, you don’t think Ole Miss.

Not sure his phone was ringing much from other programs. He is somewhat at home and probably will retire in Miss, I ain't mad for him being at OM.

[Liverpooldawg]

Difference was just they shot it better from outside. Switch three point percentages and it's a 15 point swing. We dominated the boards.

Difference is we went through a stretch where our defensive intensity on the perimeter wasn't what it needed to be. They were getting wide open looks where they had time to compose and get set to shoot. You can't give up that many of those. Now they did shoot lights out.

[msugolf]

Difference was just they shot it better from outside. Switch three point percentages and it's a 15 point swing. We dominated the boards.

That's a very shortsighted excuse.

http://https://twitter.com/shanepower21/status/1084178051238322177

[Captain Falcon]

That's a very shortsighted excuse.

http://https://twitter.com/shanepower21/status/1084178051238322177

Correct. I would feel differently if they were making a lot contested threes a la Shan Foster from Vandy back in the day. But no, they consistently had wiiiiide open looks and quite frankly they missed a few toward the end of the game or else we would’ve lost by double digits.

[confucius say]

Difference is we went through a stretch where our defensive intensity on the perimeter wasn't what it needed to be. They were getting wide open looks where they had time to compose and get set to shoot. You can't give up that many of those. Now they did shoot lights out.

I agree we give up way too many good looks. I'm not sure if it is our rotations, lack of intensity, lack of talent, or a little of all 3.

But we also missed a lot of really good looks that we normally make. If we just shoot our season percentage of 38% from three we win despite 15 turnovers (to their 10) and struggling from the free throw line again.

[AROB44]

Not sure his phone was ringing much from other programs. He is somewhat at home and probably will retire in Miss, I ain't mad for him being at OM.

This.....he had too much baggage at that time. As for Rick Ray....I keep hearing that Bailey Howell had something to do with his hire. Don't know if it true or not.

[Irondawg]

I'm still confused how a thread meant to discuss how we wouldn't have been happy with Kermit at the time of Ray's hire and wondering what has spurred his recent success turned into a game recap and excuse thread.

[Matty Dispatch]

Kermit's name was brought up as a potential coach back in 2012 but it was quickly shot down. He hadn't done much at MTSU at the time, and we thought we were a better program than we were at the time. Stricklin made an awful hire, however, Kermit had some NCAA issues and a record of being a mediocre coach so he felt like maybe he could strike gold with Rick Ray as an unproven coach. You can't argue with hiring Ben Howland when we had the chance. Maybe the best thing for MSU would've been to let Ray have his 4 years and then hire Kermit in 2016 but it didn't play out that way. It is what it is. But saying State should have hired Kermit in 2012 is revisionist history. No one would've dreamed MSU basketball would go a decade without a NCAA appearance but that's where we are now and Kermit is looking a lot better than he did 7 years ago.

[AROB44]

If we had won Saturday, there would not be the posts of "we should have hired Kermit". The posts are nothing but irrational reactions to losing to OM.

[jwells]

If we had won Saturday, there would not be the posts of "we should have hired Kermit". The posts are nothing but irrational reactions to losing to OM.

There may not have been as many but Kermit had them playing well and hard before our game. They execute and play for each other; something the exact same group of players did not do last season.

[MarketingBully]

There may not have been as many but Kermit had them playing well and hard before our game. They execute and play for each other; something the exact same group of players did not do last season.

Davis is a good coach but not a good recruiter. He’s a very similar hire to Andy Kennedy imo for them. Would I have taken him over Ray? Hell yes because he was going to bring himself and Butch Pierre (Who is an outstanding recruiter). Would I have taken him over Ben Howland? No, but that’s a different story altogether. He has this Ole Miss team playing way over their heads right now. But I still don’t think they will be a factor in the SEC down the stretch. They are one injury away from being a bottom feeder again. Tyree separated his left shoulder. It wouldn’t surprise me if that ended up knocking him out for the season in the next couple of games. He was able to finish our game because of adrenaline but imo I think he gets knocked out and it has a lingering affect the rest of the year. They lose him and it’s back to the shitter.

[jwells]

Davis is a good coach but not a good recruiter. He’s a very similar hire to Andy Kennedy imo for them. Would I have taken him over Ray? Hell yes because he was going to bring himself and Butch Pierre (Who is an outstanding recruiter). Would I have taken him over Ben Howland? No, but that’s a different story altogether. He has this Ole Miss team playing way over their heads right now. But I still don’t think they will be a factor in the SEC down the stretch. They are one injury away from being a bottom feeder again. Tyree separated his left shoulder. It wouldn’t surprise me if that ended up knocking him out for the season in the next couple of games. He was able to finish our game because of adrenaline but imo I think he gets knocked out and it has a lingering affect the rest of the year. They lose him and it’s back to the shitter.

I'm not disagreeing that it won't be sustainable. If we had played our game consistently, we win comfortably. Could be said for the last two games. Just noting that his adjustments dominated ours and it's frustrating bc I thought we had an equally talented coach on our end.

[timotheus]

You guys need to focus on the way USC and ole miss defended our perimeter guys. If Howland can't see this by now, then the other SEC coaches that we face will eat this team up. We don't run many actual basketball plays. It's all predicated on one guy getting hot outside. I have seen enough of the one man dribble and throw up a bomb demonstrations for a year.

[maroonmania]

You guys need to focus on the way USC and ole miss defended our perimeter guys. If Howland can't see this by now, then the other SEC coaches that we face will eat this team up. We don't run many actual basketball plays. It's all predicated on one guy getting hot outside. I have seen enough of the one man dribble and throw up a bomb demonstrations for a year.

Yep, there is one common thread among all of these teams that have career shooting nights from the perimeter against us.... its our perimeter defense (or lack thereof).

[Pit Bull]

Kermit has won at and improved all the basketball programs he has coached at......TAMU, Idaho, MTSU, and now OM. I wanted him badly over Rick Ray.....but others were scared off by his TAMU troubles and Bailey Howell is basically considered God of MSU Basketball. When you have NBA Championship rings and a NBA Hall of Fame selectee, people tend to put you on a pedestal. Many back in the day before Richard Williams wanted Bailey to be the HC. He didn't want it though.....and IMO, sometimes really good players don't make good coaches......But......he does have a lot of input into several of our coaching searches including Kermit Jr.

[Matty Dispatch]

Kermit has won at and improved all the basketball programs he has coached at......TAMU, Idaho, MTSU, and now OM. I wanted him badly over Rick Ray.....but others were scared off by his TAMU troubles and Bailey Howell is basically considered God of MSU Basketball. When you have NBA Championship rings and a NBA Hall of Fame selectee, people tend to put you on a pedestal. Many back in the day before Richard Williams wanted Bailey to be the HC. He didn't want it though.....and IMO, sometimes really good players don't make good coaches......But......he does have a lot of input into several of our coaching searches including Kermit Jr.

Interesting take on how Kermit improved TAMU. They were 14-17 (7-9) the year before he got there. In his one year he went 8-21 (2-14) and gave them two years probation for rules violations (and a two-year show cause for himself).

[BrunswickDawg]

Interesting take on how Kermit improved TAMU. They were 14-17 (7-9) the year before he got there. In his one year he went 8-21 (2-14) and gave them two years probation for rules violations (and a two-year show cause for himself).

Same can be said about his 1 season in Idaho. 12-16 the year before Kermit, 13-17 in his only season, 15-12 the following year. Now, MTSU is better - but it took 9 years of building to make the NIT, and 10 to get to the NCAAs. His last two seasons he was living on grad transfers - having Jacorey Williams from Arkansas in '16-'17, and Nick King from Memphis/Bama in '17-'18. Both led the team in scoring and made huge impacts. Now, you have to recruit those guys - but, it's not a sign of strong program building. Does fit with the OM MO though.

[Matty Dispatch]

Same can be said about his 1 season in Idaho. 12-16 the year before Kermit, 13-17 in his only season, 15-12 the following year. Now, MTSU is better - but it took 9 years of building to make the NIT, and 10 to get to the NCAAs. His last two seasons he was living on grad transfers - having Jacorey Williams from Arkansas in '16-'17, and Nick King from Memphis/Bama in '17-'18. Both led the team in scoring and made huge impacts. Now, you have to recruit those guys - but, it's not a sign of strong program building. Does fit with the OM MO though.

Well, in his first stint at Idaho in the 80s he was there for 2 years and made the NCAA Tournament both years. That's what got him the A&M job. But yeah, the second stint at Idaho was pretty mediocre.

What his career looks like, is that he's a good coach that does well when he inherits a decent team - like Idaho in 1988 or Ole Miss this year. But when he has a rebuild it doesn't go well (A&M 1990 and Idaho 1997) or takes forever like at MTSU when it took him 10 years to win 20 games and 11 years to make the big dance. If you look at it from that angle, hiring him in 2012 might have just resulted in a flame out like Rick Ray and we'd have ended up in the exact same spot with Ben Howland in year 4 like we are.

[Pit Bull]

If I were a coach that inherited a team that went 15-15 / 0-8, and in my first year on the job we went 15-15 / 8-0 with an automatic bid, there are many here that would say no improvement was shown in the program. Not indicative of whether Kermit did this or not, just an example of how people rationalize sometimes.