Tight Ends

[CadaverDawg]

I thought the consensus was that Jo Mo used Tight Ends a ton at PSU. Considering Fitz's inability to be accurate downfield, one would have thought we'd use the Tight Ends more. Especially considering our depth and talent at the position. But outside of a pass to Justin Johnson each game, our tight ends seemed nonexistent. Wonder why? TE should be a strength the next 2-3 years plus, so I wish we'd get them involved heavily to help our pass game

[ShotgunDawg]

I'd say two reasons why we didn't utilize the TE.

1. Our TEs aren't very good.

2. I think this is the most important reason: I believe TEs are usually the 3rd or so read on a play. Meaning the QB looks deep, then for the underneath WR route, & then to the safety blanket TE. If your QB stinks or is slow at going through reads, then your TE isn't going to get the ball very often. Go watch Youtube video on McSorely at Penn State & watch how quickly he goes through reads

[Todd4State]

Tight end is always going to be a role position. We threw to them 38 times this year as opposed to 17 last year FWIW. I expect those numbers to continue to increase as we adapt our personnel.

[KOdawg1]

Dontae Jones has looked like a beast everytime he's been on the field from what I've seen. I'd love to get him and Farrod involved more.

[CadaverDawg]

I'd say two reasons why we didn't utilize the TE.

1. Our TEs aren't very good.

2. I think this is the most important reason: I believe TEs are usually the 3rd or so read on a play. Meaning the QB looks deep, then for the underneath WR route, & then to the safety blanket TE. If your QB stinks or is slow at going through reads, then your TE isn't going to get the ball very often. Go watch Youtube video on McSorely at Penn State & watch how quickly he goes through reads

7 Tight Ends, most of which were fairly highly recruited....and all of them suck? No chance.

Glad to see Todd's stat that the TE targets increased, but when you have a struggling QB and brick handed WR's, TE's & RB's should be your best friends in the pass game. Feel like we need to really make our TE's a weapon going forward. If we're going to be a Big10 team, do what the good Big10 teams do ha

[CadaverDawg]

Dontae Jones has looked like a beast everytime he's been on the field from what I've seen. I'd love to get him and Farrod involved more.

Yep, Jones looks the part

[BrunswickDawg]

Our tight ends aren't good***, but Jordan Thomas blew up with the Texan this season, and Justin Johnson is blowing up a showcase today -
https://twitter.com/nfldraftblitz/status/1084173800135188480?s=21
https://twitter.com/flofootball/status/1084502617202450432?s=21

[ShotgunDawg]

Our tight ends aren't good***, but Justin Thomas blew up with the Texan this season, and Justin Johnson is blowing up a showcase today -
https://twitter.com/nfldraftblitz/status/1084173800135188480?s=21
https://twitter.com/flofootball/status/1084502617202450432?s=21

Then our QB couldn't go through the reads quickly enough to get it too him

[KOdawg1]

Mullen wasting Jordan Thomas's talent is high on the list of the dumbest things he's done. The guy is tearing it up for the Texans.

I know Fitz sucks as a passer, but we still should've found ways to get him the ball.

[msstate7]

You do realize TE isn't always the 3rd read, right? I've seen om go to engram immediately. I've seen ark go to Henry and sprinkle immediately. I've seen Bama go to smith immediately.

[msstate7]

Mullen wasting Jordan Thomas's talent is high on the list of the dumbest things he's done. The guy is tearing it up for the Texans.

I know Fitz sucks as a passer, but we still should've found ways to get him the ball.

Thomas last year at state:
13 games 22 rec 263 yds 3 td

Thomas at Houston:
17 games 20 rec 215 yds 4 td

[CadaverDawg]

You do realize TE isn't always the 3rd read, right? I've seen om go to engram immediately. I've seen ark go to Henry and sprinkle immediately. I've seen Bama go to smith immediately.

Yeah it sounds a lot like the excuse of "Fitz didn't hand it to the RB's"....Moorhead is the coach, if you want TE's catching it or RB's running it, call the play. Take the options and reads out of it, especially if your O is struggling

[Bothrops]

What about Spivey and Cumbest? Both were underrated out of HS.

[Homedawg]

I thought the consensus was that Jo Mo used Tight Ends a ton at PSU. Considering Fitz's inability to be accurate downfield, one would have thought we'd use the Tight Ends more. Especially considering our depth and talent at the position. But outside of a pass to Justin Johnson each game, our tight ends seemed nonexistent. Wonder why? TE should be a strength the next 2-3 years plus, so I wish we'd get them involved heavily to help our pass game

And the other team can take away the te dunp down bc they wanted fitz to push it down field, with the combo of his inaccuracy and our wr.

[KOdawg1]

Delete.

[Cooterpoot]

Our TEs are slow. Johnson was crazy ass slow. Jones was the best option but struggled with the playbook. Mullen liked bigger, blocking TEs and Jo wants more of a receiver. We?ll see how that goes.

[bulldawg28]

We have talent at TE.

[ShotgunDawg]

We have talent at TE.

Kind of vague

Like NFL talent? or just "talent"?

[bulldawg28]

Kind of vague

Like NFL talent? or just "talent"?

SEC talent. It's impossible to say NFL when they haven't been featured. We have guys like Jones, Spivey,Green,and Cumbest that can play and give us advantages. Talent isn't the issue with that position. I'd go as far to say it's one of the deepest positions on the team.

[Todd4State]

You do realize TE isn't always the 3rd read, right? I've seen om go to engram immediately. I've seen ark go to Henry and sprinkle immediately. I've seen Bama go to smith immediately.

That's not typical though. I imagine some of those targets were based on pre-snap reads as opposed to play design.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Moorhead doesnt use a TE very often. He uses them more often than not as H backs. We didnt run much Ace or treo this year its not his thing.

But you can get them the ball, you just have to make an effort. Like I've said before, Moorhead needs to develop into a leader and learn the difference in being their coach and being their friend. If you want your Hback TE to get the ball you tell Fitz to throw it to him and if he doesnt then you hold his ass accountable. The Fitz's reads excuse as for why our RBs didnt get the ball is bogus, same with the TEs.

[BuckyIsAB****]

That's not typical though. I imagine some of those targets were based on pre-snap reads as opposed to play design.

Its very typical. If your TE is a good player you get him the ball. I'd say our TEs are just as good as our WRs if not better.

[Cooterpoot]

Its very typical. If your TE is a good player you get him the ball. I'd say our TEs are just as good as our WRs if not better.

You can't get them the ball when they're having to help the tackles block.

[BuckyIsAB****]

You can't get them the ball when they're having to help the tackles block.

You get it to him faster then. Go quick game dont take 5 step drops take 3 or grip it and rip it. No excuse just like our RBs not getting it, it was incompetence or failure to hold his QB accountable.

[Cooterpoot]

You get it to him faster then. Go quick game dont take 5 step drops take 3 or grip it and rip it. No excuse just like our RBs not getting it, it was incompetence or failure to hold his QB accountable.

Not part of our offense, which I've complained about. It's about the big play and it's going to be a problem if he doesn't adjust.

[Commercecomet24]

I love what Fitz did as a Dawg, that being said I think our offense is going to look totally different with a new QB next year(for better or for worse). I'm really hoping its for the better!

[Prediction? Pain.]

Actually, the rate at which we targeted our TEs was roughly the same as it was for Moorhead at Penn. St. in 2017. If you look only at players with 10 or more targets this year -- i.e. players to whom Fitz threw the ball 10 or more times -- here's the breakdown:

6 WRs - 188 targets - 66.4% target rate
2 RBs - 41 targets - 14.5% target rate
2 TEs - 54 targets - 19.1% target rate

And here is Penn. St. in 2017:

5 WRs - 252 targets - 59.7% target rate
1 TE - 76 targets - 18% target rate
2 RBs - 80 targets - 18.9% target rate
1 QB - 14 targets - 3.3% target rate

Mullen had Fitz throw to TEs at a similar rate in 2017 (21.9%). The biggest difference in distribution is that Moorhead wants the RBs involved more in the passing game. Here's the distribution among the top targets at MSU in 2017:

7 WRs - 235 targets - 71.4% target rate
3 TEs - 72 targets - 21.9% target rate
1 RB - 22 targets - 6.7% target rate

Random note about PSU's top 5 targets in 2017 -- each of them had a catch rate of over 65%. That's pretty damn stout. For comparison, this year only one of our top 5 targets (Hill) had a catch rate higher than 65%. (Also, passes to our top target - Guidry - were completed only 38% of the time. Yikes . . . .)

[msstate7]

Actually, the rate at which we targeted our TEs was roughly the same as it was for Moorhead at Penn. St. in 2017. If you look only at players with 10 or more targets this year -- i.e. players to whom Fitz threw the ball 10 or more times -- here's the breakdown:

6 WRs - 188 targets - 66.4% target rate
2 RBs - 41 targets - 14.5% target rate
2 TEs - 54 targets - 19.1% target rate

And here is Penn. St. in 2017

5 WRs - 252 targets - 59.7% target rate
1 TE - 76 targets - 18% target rate
2 RBs - 80 targets - 18.9% target rate
1 QB - 14 targets - 3.3% target rate

Mullen had Fitz throw to TEs at a similar rate in 2017 (21.9%). The biggest difference in distribution is that Moorhead wants the RBs involved more in the passing game. MSU in 2017:

7 WRs - 235 targets - 71.4% target rate
3 TEs - 72 targets - 21.9% target rate
1 RB - 22 targets - 6.7% target rate

Random note about PSU's top 5 targets last year -- each of them had a catch rate of over 65%. That's pretty damn stout. For comparison, this year, only one of our top 5 targets (Hill) had a catch rate higher than 65%. (Also, passes to our top target - Guidry - were completed only 38% of the time. Yikes . . . .)

Here's you an amazing stat on catch rate... Michael Thomas was targeted 147 times this year and he caught 125 (85%). Sorry for plugging my saints... I got that fever

[Recreationalgynecologist]

We now have lost both of our TE’s to the NFL draft. So, there’s obviously a demand for those sort of players in the league. Especially with our most recent TE draftee (Kittle) getting 1377 yards receiving for the 49ers this year. It baffles me how so many teams neglect the TE position in college football.

[bulldawg28]

We now have lost both of our TE’s to the NFL draft. So, there’s obviously a demand for those sort of players in the league. Especially with our most recent TE draftee (Kittle) getting 1377 yards receiving for the 49ers this year. It baffles me how so many teams neglect the TE position in college football.

Indeed. A TE should be a QB's best friend. A guaranteed security blanket should never be ignored.

[Todd4State]

Actually, the rate at which we targeted our TEs was roughly the same as it was for Moorhead at Penn. St. in 2017. If you look only at players with 10 or more targets this year -- i.e. players to whom Fitz threw the ball 10 or more times -- here's the breakdown:

6 WRs - 188 targets - 66.4% target rate
2 RBs - 41 targets - 14.5% target rate
2 TEs - 54 targets - 19.1% target rate

And here is Penn. St. in 2017:

5 WRs - 252 targets - 59.7% target rate
1 TE - 76 targets - 18% target rate
2 RBs - 80 targets - 18.9% target rate
1 QB - 14 targets - 3.3% target rate

Mullen had Fitz throw to TEs at a similar rate in 2017 (21.9%). The biggest difference in distribution is that Moorhead wants the RBs involved more in the passing game. Here's the distribution among the top targets at MSU in 2017:

7 WRs - 235 targets - 71.4% target rate
3 TEs - 72 targets - 21.9% target rate
1 RB - 22 targets - 6.7% target rate

Random note about PSU's top 5 targets in 2017 -- each of them had a catch rate of over 65%. That's pretty damn stout. For comparison, this year only one of our top 5 targets (Hill) had a catch rate higher than 65%. (Also, passes to our top target - Guidry - were completed only 38% of the time. Yikes . . . .)

Are you counting Jordan Thomas as a TE or a WR in 2017? I'm just curious because that could go either way.

[lastmajordog]

Jackie Sherrill had some tight ends that won some BIG games for him and dare I say (cough) Hugh Haircut Freeze had a tight end that pulled his butt out of many cracks.......I do NOT understand not using TE?s more.....

[Prediction? Pain.]

Are you counting Jordan Thomas as a TE or a WR in 2017? I'm just curious because that could go either way.

Good point. He's lumped in with the TEs. He was targeted 43 times, which was tied with Deddrick Thomas for 2nd most on the team (Gray had 44 targets.) If you shift all of his targets over to the receivers, then the TE target rate among top pass-catchers for 2017 would drop to 11.9%. Glancing at 2015 and 2016 without doing the math, I'd guess that the target rates for TEs were similar (roughly 15%, give or take a few) in those years, too.

Looking back at 2015 and 2016, it's also interesting to see that over Mullen's last three years, we incorporated less and less targets to RBs the offense. In 2015, it looks like the RB target rate among top receivers (Holloway and Shumpert) was close to 15%. Then in 2016 it dropped considerably -- Holloway was the only RB to be targeted more than 10 times, and even he had only 18 targets. (He had 43 the year before.) And it didn't change much in 2017 with Aeries. I know that the offense was much more pass happy in 2015, but with our lack of quality depth at receiver in 2016 and 2017, I wonder why the target rate for RBs went down.

[Todd4State]

Good point. He's lumped in with the TEs. He was targeted 43 times, which was tied with Deddrick Thomas for 2nd most on the team (Gray had 44 targets.) If you shift all of his targets over to the receivers, then the TE target rate among top pass-catchers for 2017 would drop to 11.9%. Glancing at 2015 and 2016 without doing the math, I'd guess that the target rates for TEs were similar (roughly 15%, give or take a few) in those years, too.

Looking back at 2015 and 2016, it's also interesting to see that over Mullen's last three years, we incorporated less and less targets to RBs the offense. In 2015, it looks like the RB target rate among top receivers (Holloway and Shumpert) was close to 15%. Then in 2016 it dropped considerably -- Holloway was the other RB to be targeted more than 10 times, and even he had only 18 targets. (He had 43 the year before.) And it didn't change much in 2017 with Aeries. I know that the offense was much more pass happy in 2015, but with our lack of quality depth at receiver in 2016 and 2017, I wonder why the target rate for RBs went down.

I'm not sure why they went down but my guess is Nick probably never got through his progressions tinge to the check down which is the running back a lot of the time.