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View Full Version : Why 4 twenty conferences won't happen



BulldogBear
10-17-2013, 01:59 PM
Okay, I know this may burst a few bubbles but I finally got some time today to weigh in on this. This an area I love to speculate on (expansion). I've been paying close attention to the reasons, motivations, biases, and hangups, and culture about this since the mid 90s. I am of the opinion that 64 is as far as it will go and there is a slim to none chance 20 each for 80. Here's why:

72 might work with 4 conferences of 18, with 2 divisions of 9. But that's not gonna happen. Why? The Big 4 are gonna want quads, especially if they seperate from NCAA and don't need it's approval. There will be a four school conference playoff not just a championship game. So, you're thinking 20 team conferences with four divisions of 5 each. I have even broken down how schedule would work and things like that. But I gave up because it ain't gonna happen. Why? There's something that outwieghs any "first four out" problem. That problem is... who you have to include. I call this the "western problem."

Now unless the Big 4 are gonna give up their right to dictate and negotiate their own $$$ terms and who is in their conference, this is going to kill the 80 school system idea pretty quickly. I can't see the big 4 agreeing to share their $$$ or be divied up by the NCAA, or some future created governing body, like an NFL type league with artificial geographical and play balance. Right now, including the Irish, there are 65 "BCS" schools. The problem is finding 15 more. Keep in mind all that goes into the desire for a conference to expand: TV Market, on-field success, attendance, culture, committment to athletics (especially football AND basketball) and the facilities for the playing thereof, and so on and so forth.

I think most can agree that 3 of the Big 4 will be the SEC, B1G, and Pac 12(16){20}. The Big 12 or ACC will absorbed by the other and the aforementioned 3 conferences. There's a small chance it could be the Big 12 that survives which would also make for a slim of chance of going to 80 schools. But the Big 12 is a debutante ball and in all likelyhood it is the ACC that will survive and that will leave ZERO chance of expanding to 80. Finding 15 affects all regions but nowhere is the problem better illustrated than out west. So, let me illustrate using BYU, San Diego State, Cal State-Fresno, and Boise State as an example. When searching for 15 likely schools that "fit," most lists would include the first 3 and possibly Boise State as well.

For some common reasons and some unique to each, those schools have about as much chance of garnering an invite from the Pacific (insert #) Conference as Grovebear girl has of getting a marriage proposal from Dr. James Dobson. Those reasons are worthy of an article/post/thread unto themselves, so for now, I'll move on. So, who invites SDSU, CSF, BYU, and Boise? The SEC? B1G? ACC? Nope. ZERO chance of that. If the Big 12 survives as the 4th conference this is where your slight chance of fitting in 15 more to get to 80 comes in. But, if those 3-4 are left out, just who do you replace them with for our Left Coast Conference? UNM, Colorado State, and 6 former Big 12ers? Okay, so who joins the ACC, B1G, SEC since our gang of 15 is down by 4 because there is simply nowhere for Boise, Fresno, BYU, and the Aztecs to go? ...USM? Beast Carolina? Louisiana Tech? Rice? ...or (E) none of the above? Four 20 school conferences is not going to happen. The idea sounds good on paper if there were 80 worthy candidates once you get past all the factors that go into expansion, but there just aren't 80 positioned correctly geographically, financially, culturally, and so on ad nauseum to make a nice cookie cutter 80 school confederetion of Big 4 "BCS" conferences.

IN ALL LIKELYHOOD, what really will happen is that the Big 12 or ACC will dissolve as we can all agree and 1 school will be left out. If the Big 12 survives then that school will probably be Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville or Wake Forest depending on who the B1G takes. But what will probably happen is that the ACC will survive and TCU, Baylor, or Iowa State will be left out, depending on where Texas goes. Iowa State is the least likely because they are a large state institution that is an AAU member and will present a new TV market for the conference which takes them. But unlike Kansas State, unless Iowa State is B1G candidate then they not have an inconference "ally," Iowa in the case of B1G interest, nor a highly sought after expansion candidate for an ally as Kansas will be for K-State. There may be political pressure in Iowa to make sure the Cyclone nation is not left out but Iowa supporters and alumni in state government may have little affect on the matter unless Iowa State has legit interest from the B1G. Kansas and Kansas State, to contrast, are a different animal. They are different schools...I guess. They actually have the same board of regents. They would be content to be in seperate Big 4 conferences if need be but Kansas WILL be one of the expansion schools for one of the Big 4. With only one "leftover" it's a cinch it won't be Kansas. So, KU has the conch. The board of regents will never allow K-State to be left behind to fade into collegiate athletic irrelevance. So, KU will be able to take K-State with it OR at least hold out until K-State has a slot. Or even negotiate to make sure they do, even in another conference (because KU itself is prime candidate as Iowa is not because it is already a B1G member and holds no power over the expansion desires of other conferences). Iowa State does not have such an ally. But, that rant went on for a while without need because it will probably be TCU or Baylor left out and hey, it may depend more on who is the most football relevant at the time. TCU is in DFW market but in Texas that doesn't mean much as any conference with UT and/or TAMU doesn't "need" TCU for exposure in DFW and TCU couldn't touch the amount either of those could bring anyway.

So, I'm tired of typing. I believe there's about a 99.99999999% chance you're gonna see big 4 conferences of 16 each with TCU or Baylor packed off to the AAC or MWC.

Esmerelda Villalobos
10-17-2013, 02:02 PM
No

codeDawg
10-17-2013, 02:07 PM
I think we'll see 16 team conferences, probably still part of the NCAA, then 18, then 20. It doesn't have to happen overnight. They all also don't have to have the same number of schools at the same time. This will be an evolutionary process rather than a revolutionary one. This has been prognosticated for over a decade and we just started growing the conferences a couple of years ago.

Political Hack
10-17-2013, 02:18 PM
Pac-20
1. Arizona
2. ASU
3. Cal
4. Colorado
5. Oregon
6. Oregon State
7. Stanford
8. UCLA
9. USC
10. Utah
11. Washington
12. Washington State

Add 8 of the following: Boise, Texas, Texas Tech, Colorado State, BYU, Nevada, UNLV, Fresno State, Wyoming, or maybe a few others.

Also, there's no gaurantee, and I don't think it would happen this way, that each conference will have to go to 20 immediately. I think the SEC will set that standard at 20 and then others will follow suit as they can. I would expect FSU, Miami, NC State, VaTech, West Virginia, and Clemson to be teams in the discussion.

SheltonChoked
10-17-2013, 02:21 PM
It will be a division 4.

the 64 teams break away for football only, at first. They will be allowed to add a "true cost of attendance stipend" for each football player (again at first) of about $1000/ month (or $1MM/ year for the team).

The money for this will come from the playoff system for D4. It will look a lot like the NFL model, but with only division champs.

The bad news is we will probably be in a division with Alabama, Auburn, and Ole Miss.

I also think there will be no playing down a division allowed (to keep TV ratings up), and no "extra" practice for playoff teams (all teams can practice/ be coached year round)

This will expand to baskeball after a few years, as teams take advantage of the stipend to get basketball players to come to school on football scholarships (Especially one and done guys).

curmudgeon
10-17-2013, 02:33 PM
Here's a stab at a 4 Super Conference idea

This includes everyone that is in a Big Six Conference now, and adds seven mid-majors and implies Georgetown taking their football program up. Its a shot in the dark. Yellow is significant conference change, teal is mid-major. Italics are Big East basketball only schools.

187

Political Hack
10-17-2013, 02:33 PM
If we could go to four five-team divisions within the SEC it would work out well for us. If they did it geographically it could be

Div 1: A&M, LSU, Ark, OM & State.
Div 2: Auburn, Bama, Vandy, Mizzu, Kentucky
Div 3: Florida, FSU, Miami, UGA, Tennessee
Div 4: W. Vir, VaTech, NC State, Clemson, S. Car

Final Four Playoff
SEC CG

You play the four in your division, rotate playing another division each year just like the NFL does. 8 game schedule with 4 non-conference opponents before the playoffs.

ETA: If people worry about losing their conference rival, I'm not sure why we couldn't allow teams to schedule each other in a non-conference game each year like OM and State does in the Gov Cup. That would help preserve the Bama-UT & UGA-Auburn games.

SheltonChoked
10-17-2013, 02:39 PM
The following schools do not have the academics to join the PAC whatever:

Boise
Nevada
Fresno State
Wyoming
UNLV
Texas Tech

the best fit for the PAC16 would be adding:
Texas
OU
Kansas
BYU


And no way Florida (teamed with Kentucky, UGA, TAMU, and USCe) allows FSU or Miami to join the SEC

Likewise, no way UGA and USCe (teamed with Florida, Kentucky, and TAMU) allow Clemson to join the SEC

All of the above schools will block the vote for another instate school to join the SEC. They don't want to be MS or AL They want the SEC to themselves. If we were in and Ole Miss was out, we'd do the same.

The SEC will expand to 16 at the expense of the ACC (taking UVA/VaTech and UNC/NC State) or the Big12 (taking OU/OSU, KU/KSU, or WVa ). TAMU will block Texas (as would most others) and the other Texas schools are either too far away (Texas Tech) or will be sent to the kids table (Baylor/TCU) Iowa State is too far away. The ACC route makes more sense for SEC expansion, but never discout Texas ability to destroy an Conference.

Homedawg
10-17-2013, 02:47 PM
It will be a division 4.

the 64 teams break away for football only, at first. They will be allowed to add a "true cost of attendance stipend" for each football player (again at first) of about $1000/ month (or $1MM/ year for the team).

The money for this will come from the playoff system for D4. It will look a lot like the NFL model, but with only division champs.

The bad news is we will probably be in a division with Alabama, Auburn, and Ole Miss.

I also think there will be no playing down a division allowed (to keep TV ratings up), and no "extra" practice for playoff teams (all teams can practice/ be coached year round)

This will expand to baskeball after a few years, as teams take advantage of the stipend to get basketball players to come to school on football scholarships (Especially one and done guys).

How are the new super conferences going to avoid title 9? They can't. So this stipend will have to go to women as well. I agree w the first part about breaking off w football first.

WeWonItAll(Most)
10-17-2013, 03:03 PM
Not that it matters, but I really don't like these big ass conferences. We would play Florida (or someone else not in our division) like once every 20 years. It feels like we're creating 4 seperate divisions, not 4 conferences

DawgInMemphis
10-17-2013, 03:03 PM
If we could go to four five-team divisions within the SEC it would work out well for us. If they did it geographically it could be

Div 1: A&M, LSU, Ark, OM & State.
Div 2: Auburn, Bama, Vandy, Mizzu, Kentucky
Div 3: Florida, FSU, Miami, UGA, Tennessee
Div 4: W. Vir, VaTech, NC State, Clemson, S. Car

Final Four Playoff
SEC CG

You play the four in your division, rotate playing another division each year just like the NFL does. 8 game schedule with 4 non-conference opponents before the playoffs.

ETA: If people worry about losing their conference rival, I'm not sure why we couldn't allow teams to schedule each other in a non-conference game each year like OM and State does in the Gov Cup. That would help preserve the Bama-UT & UGA-Auburn games.

That's a 9 game conference schedule and 3 OOC games, but I think eventually this is where we're headed anyways.

SheltonChoked
10-17-2013, 04:43 PM
Ok they pay everyone, with the same stipend, it's still only about $2mm/ year. I've seen estimates as high as $3,000 per month. If that's true. MSU is in great shape. $3,00 per month is a lot more purchasing power in Starkville than it is in Austin.

hacker
10-17-2013, 04:56 PM
Not that it matters, but I really don't like these big ass conferences. We would play Florida (or someone else not in our division) like once every 20 years. It feels like we're creating 4 seperate divisions, not 4 conferences

Every 3 years? Everyone is saying that the schedule would rotate through the other 3 divisions.

Political Hack
10-17-2013, 05:07 PM
This Title ix argument always loses me. It says nothing about paying women athletes because football players get paid. Now if all male athletes got paid, then yes, it would be applicable. The actual language:

"No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.”

Also, in terms of Florida denying FSU or Miami, they'll be outvoted 13-1. The SEC wants to expand it's TV market to help generate more viewership for the ESPN/SEC deal. In order to do that you have to add large markets, of which Miami and the Florida panhandle are two. Not to mention the national appeal of Florida State.

With the Pac-12, I could see them stopping at 16 for a while, but they'll eventually open it up for the money and TV revenue.

SheltonChoked
10-17-2013, 05:23 PM
Florida would veto the motion 9-5

There is a reason FSU was rumored to be going to the Big12 last year.

BulldogBear
10-17-2013, 06:06 PM
This Title ix argument always loses me. It says nothing about paying women athletes because football players get paid. Now if all male athletes got paid, then yes, it would be applicable. The actual language:

"No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.”

Also, in terms of Florida denying FSU or Miami, they'll be outvoted 13-1. The SEC wants to expand it's TV market to help generate more viewership for the ESPN/SEC deal. In order to do that you have to add large markets, of which Miami and the Florida panhandle are two. Not to mention the national appeal of Florida State.

With the Pac-12, I could see them stopping at 16 for a while, but they'll eventually open it up for the money and TV revenue.


But actually with ridiculously large state schools like Texas and Florida they already have the markets coverd. The SEC doesn't need FSU or Miami to cover those markets. All adding them does is add bigtime programs with national followings. That's not completely without value, however, the real beef UF, UGA, SC, etc. have is the negative impact it could have on recruiting to add another in state school to the SEC. FSU and Miami as an esample both suffered upon entering the ACC. They no longer really had a different product to offer. It's more complicated than that simplistic example, but trust me, the real beef is recruiting.

Behrdawg
10-17-2013, 06:07 PM
I think you typed a whole lot for nothing. There will be 20 team conferences, and it will be sooner than you think

BulldogBear
10-17-2013, 06:13 PM
I go back to my original post in saying that 80 has little or no chance of ever happening. California state schools, BYU, and academically diffecient schools won't be invited to the Pac (#) unless some outside governing body with absolute authority over them forces them to do so. So, again, I say those schools will NEVER be in the Left Coast Conference, which leaves them nowhere to go, which means there will be no upgrade to Big 4 conferences of more than 16 because the ACC, SEC, and B1G are NOT going to invite the schools it would take to find 15 additional "BCS" schools to add to the current 64 + ND. Northern Illinois not gonna be in the B1G. Rice not going to the SEC. ECU not gonna be an ACC school. Moves like that are what it would take because western mid majors are not gonna be asked to join the Pac(#) and there just not enough candidate schools left to justify a move to 20 by all Big 4 conferences.

BulldogBear
10-17-2013, 06:28 PM
I think you typed a whole lot for nothing. There will be 20 team conferences, and it will be sooner than you think

Only on msg board fantasies.

I agree it will happen fast. Once the idea of 4 divisions and 4 team conference playoff at end of regular season takes hold and any conference goes to 16, there will be four 16 school conferences within 12-24 months. It'll happen too fast. They won't go beyond that because the only way would be for the Big 4 to exchange some members. See above referenced absolute authority forcing an NFLesque artificially balanced geographically set of 4 conferences. Who is going to be this "governing" body and why will these Big 4 conferences allow it to dictate to them who will be in their conference and how the financial arrangement will work. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Western midmajors, with few exceptions, are not going to be invited to join ANY Big 4 conference. There are not enough schools for the Pac(#) to get to 20 without Big 12 schools and then that leaves the ACC, B1G and ACC inviting the likes of Tulsa, Tulane, Miami (Ohio), and Old Dominion. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Tell me what 15 schools will end up being added to the current 64+ ND. Don't bother including San Diego State, BYU, or Fresno State. They will not be invited to join the Pac(#), ACC, B1G or SEC. The only midmajors that are candidates for the left coast conference are Colorado State, New Mexico, Nevada-Reno in a decade and perhaps Boise State if there are serious facility upgrades, academic upgrades, and serious basketball on court performance improvement. The rest would have to be old Big12ers and so, then tell me who the other 11 schools that will magically end up spread throughout the ACC, SEC and B1G.

dickiedawg
10-18-2013, 11:28 AM
I see what you're saying, bear, but there's a flaw in the argument. I don't think anyone expects some "governing body" to step in and make 20-team conferences happen. Just like the last round of expansion, one conference will decide to expand and the rest will react. If the SEC thinks it can make more money with 20 members, then by golly it will make that happen and the other conferences will follow suit. Or they won't if they decide it doesn't make sense for them to do so.

As for the PAC (Does it really need a number? I think "Pacific Athletic Conference" works fine), I don't think they'd really let substandard Academics keep them from adding schools if it made the most sense for them. Then again, I don't know where the idea that all conferences have to have the same number of teams came from. It's certainly not that way now.

Quaoarsking
10-18-2013, 12:02 PM
I agree that 72 is the endgame. 64 + BYU, ND, Boise, UConn, Cincinnati, USF, UCF, and Houston. Those last 3 aren't certain, but they're large public schools in large cities with potential.

There just aren't 8 more schools to add.

Esmerelda Villalobos
10-18-2013, 12:08 PM
Yall ever thought that not every conference will have 20? How many conferences have equal number teams now?

dawgs
10-18-2013, 12:57 PM
I see what you're saying, bear, but there's a flaw in the argument. I don't think anyone expects some "governing body" to step in and make 20-team conferences happen. Just like the last round of expansion, one conference will decide to expand and the rest will react. If the SEC thinks it can make more money with 20 members, then by golly it will make that happen and the other conferences will follow suit. Or they won't if they decide it doesn't make sense for them to do so.

As for the PAC (Does it really need a number? I think "Pacific Athletic Conference" works fine), I don't think they'd really let substandard Academics keep them from adding schools if it made the most sense for them. Then again, I don't know where the idea that all conferences have to have the same number of teams came from. It's certainly not that way now.

i think the pac 12 would be on the forefront of the move. the new commish has balls and is willing to make big moves. if things appear heading down the superconference route, he's not going to wait around to be left with west coast leftovers, he's going to go hard after big 12 schools. and those schools are fine academically.

byu would be interesting because they were already shot down by the univ presidents in the last expansion round because they super conservative mormon culture doesn't really go with the rest of the pac 12. not that most of the big 12 outside of univ of texas isn't pretty conservative, but they also don't have the mormon church running things, but i could see baylor and tcu being left out for that reason (which would leave them open to be added to the sec as mid-tier programs).

i also don't think the sec would want to add top tier programs. we'd be fine bringing in decent mid-tier programs to add some depth and new markets.