Gettysburg

[EdDawg]

I figured I would start a thread here since there were a few of us that hijacked a sports topic on the main board.

I posted in that thread that Ranger Matt Atkinson from GettysburgNPS has some great videos on their YouTube page. They are really worth the watch if you are interested in it.

I really enjoy talking and discussing this time period of our history.

[parabrave]

Watch Ted Turners Gettysburg. Probably one of the best produced war/history movies ever with great acting and pretty dam right on historical facts..

[EdDawg]

Seen it and Gods and Generals which was really drawn out at times.

I wish Gettysburg the movie would have focused just a little on the night engagement at cemetery hill. It is truly amazing seeing how wide open that field of fire was the union had from atop the hill which made anything but a night battle suicide. This is definitely one of the areas of the battlefield that doesn't get the attention it deserves.

[parabrave]

The book Gods and Generals was really drawn out. But it covered the Early Battles very well.

[Liverpooldawg]

If you have never been to Gettysburg, go. If you walk out of the woods at the Virginia Memorial , look at the objective, and still think R.E. Lee is an elite general.....I can't help you. I thought he was elite, as Southern Mythology says, till I did it myself. Walk the ground, no matter which ground you go to. Staying in your car is......useless.

[Bully13]

If you have never been to Gettysburg, go. If you walk out of the woods at the Virginia Memorial , look at the objective, and still think R.E. Lee is an elite general.....I can't help you. I thought he was elite, as Southern Mythology says, till I did it myself. Walk the ground, no matter which ground you go to. Staying in your car is......useless.

There is a reason Lee was Lincoln's first choice prior to hostilities beginning. There is a reason Lee graduated 1st in his class at west point. There is a reason Lee won battles outnumbered.

[parabrave]

Yep but he caught a case of the Dumbass ordering Picketts charge. Any brand new 2nd LT would have seen what was about to happen.

[Bully13]

Yep but he caught a case of the Dumbass ordering Picketts charge. Any brand new 2nd LT would have seen what was about to happen.

not disagreeing with that. just talking about his complete resume.

[parabrave]

not disagreeing with that. just talking about his complete resume.

Read Gods and Generals. It's pretty indepth of the Pre-war lives of Lee, Jackson and Longstreet.

[patdyeisstilldrunk]

There is a reason Lee was Lincoln's first choice prior to hostilities beginning. There is a reason Lee graduated 1st in his class at west point. There is a reason Lee won battles outnumbered.

Lee didn't graduate first in his class at WP. Many historians believe that Lee suffered a minor stroke prior to (or at the beginning of) the Gettysburg Campaign. If true, his judgment would have likely been clouded and he never would have ordered the Charge.

[patdyeisstilldrunk]

See my reply below - many historians believe Lee suffered a stroke in the days / weeks leading up to Gettysburg. This would be an explanation, at least, for such a foolhardy decision.

[Bully13]

Lee didn't graduate first in his class at WP. Many historians believe that Lee suffered a minor stroke prior to (or at the beginning of) the Gettysburg Campaign. If true, his judgment would have likely been clouded and he never would have ordered the Charge.


My Bad and thanks for the post stilldrunk. He finished 2ND at WP. Not too shabby though, no? Never heard about the stroke. I do know he died from a flu or pneumonia or something of the sort soon after the war.


https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/robert-e-lee

[patdyeisstilldrunk]

First...second, what's the difference, right? He was the only graduate who did not have a single demerit during his tenure at WP. That's pretty amazing, in itself. I don't have the research at hand, currently, but one of my students did research that came to the conclusion that a stroke was likely. He had some good research to back up his conclusion. Interestingly, there's research out there that presents the theory that JEB Stuart suffered a nervous breakdown in the months prior to Gettysburg. This would explain his uncharacteristic behavior before and during the battle.

[Bully13]

First...second, what's the difference, right? He was the only graduate who did not have a single demerit during his tenure at WP. That's pretty amazing, in itself. I don't have the research at hand, currently, but one of my students did research that came to the conclusion that a stroke was likely. He had some good research to back up his conclusion. Interestingly, there's research out there that presents the theory that JEB Stuart suffered a nervous breakdown in the months prior to Gettysburg. This would explain his uncharacteristic behavior before and during the battle.

DAMN. Wow. Gracias Senior.

[Jack Lambert]

Things to ponder and discuss.

1. Lee was sick. Rumor was he had to many pancakes and had diarrhea. That was really serious in mid 19th century also medical records show he possibly had had a Heart Attack a few week earlier. Lee was forcing the issue thinking the north would pursue peace if he could win the battle. Longstreet tried to change Lee's mind. They should have move back to Washington after the first day. The other Corp Commanders were ass kisser. What Lee needed was another level head to talk some sense in him. Jackson would have been that guy.

2. I think Jeb Stuart is criticize too much for being late. First of all the capture wagons he brought into the battle which slowed him down were needed to get Lee's wounded out of Gettysburg. The supplies were really needed as well. Also the idea that Lee's army was blinded because Stuart wasn't there is just bull shit. The historians at the time was trying to lay blame for the loss on someone else. What people don't rallies is Lee had another Cavalry Command under John D. Imboden. It was independent from Stuart. The problem was Lee did not trust them. He kept him in the rear with the gear protecting thier supply train.

Here is a good PDF file about the day by day whereabouts of Stuart and the Union Cav during the Gettysburg campaign and it is safe to open.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a195002.pdf

[EdDawg]

Things to ponder and discuss.

1. Lee was sick. Rumor was he had to many pancakes and had diarrhea. That was really serious in mid 19th century also medical records show he possibly had had a Heart Attack a few week earlier. Lee was forcing the issue thinking the north would pursue peace if he could win the battle. Longstreet tried to change Lee's mind. They should have move back to Washington after the first day. The other Corp Commanders were ass kisser. What Lee needed was another level head to talk some sense in him. Jackson would have been that guy.

2. I think Jeb Stuart is criticize too much for being late. First of all the capture wagons he brought into the battle which slowed him down were needed to get Lee's wounded out of Gettysburg. The supplies were really needed as well. Also the idea that Lee's army was blinded because Stuart wasn't there is just bull shit. The historians at the time was trying to lay blame for the loss on someone else. What people don't rallies is Lee had another Cavalry Command under John D. Imboden. It was independent from Stuart. The problem was Lee did not trust them. He kept him in the rear with the gear protecting thier supply train.

Here is a good PDF file about the day by day whereabouts of Stuart and the Union Cav during the Gettysburg campaign and it is safe to open.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a195002.pdf

1. I don't think Lee could have disengaged after day 1. The union still had a sizable force near the Pipe Creek Line which was very defensible terrain. Lee was just an aggressive commander in a time that was very costly to launch assaults on fixed positions. I know Longstreet was a professional soldier and would always try to hold duty above anything else, but his countermarch is such a head scratcher. Why would make his whole column move like a snake to turn on a narrow road on day 2. Even if he was able to launch his assault just 1 hour earlier the outcome may be completely different.

2. Stuart, while a great Calvary commander, did let personal grudges get in his way. He gave Lee irregular Calvary brigades, Imboden, but left other more qualified brigades to guard the Shenandoah. Now Lee should have overruled this, but that's not the type of commander he was.

I think Lee got a little too anxious by 63, he thought he needed to accelerate the Union's war weariness a little more. I think he could have stayed on the defensive while launching raids and keeping his army in tact. This would have eroded almost all union war support by the 64 elections.

[Liverpooldawg]

Lee got drawn into battle at Gettysburg because he had no idea what he was facing. That was Stuart's fault. He failed in his primary function which was to screen and scout. Lee failed on both the second and third day by ordering assaults against extremely strong geographical positions that were perfect for the defender. None of those assaults should have been ordered. Longstreet had the right idea. That idea would have been very hard to implement though. Lee got outgeneraled all the way around in that Campaign by Meade. Had Lee been able to get between Meade and Washington, Meade would have been forced to attack. Meade, whatever his faults, didn't allow that to happen. That's what really won the battle of Gettysburg. Lee's one chance to win the tactical battle at Gettysburg evaporated when Euell failed to secure Culp's Hill on the first day.

[EdDawg]

Lee got drawn into battle at Gettysburg because he had no idea what he was facing. That was Stuart's fault. He failed in his primary function which was to screen and scout. Lee failed on both the second and third day by ordering assaults against extremely strong geographical positions that were perfect for the defender. None of those assaults should have been ordered. Longstreet had the right idea. That idea would have been very hard to implement though. Lee got outgeneraled all the way around in that Campaign by Meade. Had Lee been able to get between Meade and Washington, Meade would have been forced to attack. Meade, whatever his faults, didn't allow that to happen. That's what really won the battle of Gettysburg. Lee's one chance to win the tactical battle at Gettysburg evaporated when Euell failed to secure Culp's Hill on the first day.

The third day was definitely on Lee, but the attack on the 2nd day was suppose to take place in the morning, but didn't take place until around 3 in the afternoon. If the attack takes place even at noon there are no union troops present at Little Round Top. The only brigade of Hood and McLaw's divisions that wouldn't have been present earlier was Law's brigade.

Sickle's Corps would have still been crushed and Hancock would not have been able to pull enough troops to throw into the battle until after Hood occupied Little Round Top. And dislodging the Texas brigade from Little Round Top would have been a tough task.

On the third day, I think Lee felt like he had to do something or his losses would have been for nothing, but instead he just dug his hole deeper.

[EdDawg]

Liverpool, when you went what did you think of the engagement at Oak Hill/Ridge?

It just amazes me how inept Rodes was there. His division should have crushed the union wing quickly and may have even led to the seizing of Cemetary Hill that afternoon.

I haven't read much on Rodes, but to have a subordinate brigade commander supposedly drunk, and another sitting back and not leading, doesn't bode well for Rodes' leadership.

[Liverpooldawg]

Liverpool, when you went what did you think of the engagement at Oak Hill/Ridge?

It just amazes me how inept Rodes was there. His division should have crushed the union wing quickly and may have even led to the seizing of Cemetary Hill that afternoon.

I haven't read much on Rodes, but to have a subordinate brigade commander supposedly drunk, and another sitting back and not leading, doesn't bode well for Rodes' leadership.

That battle was just a series of bungling all the way around in the Confederate side. That was certainly one of them.

[Mjoelner34]

Many historians believe that Lee suffered a minor stroke prior to (or at the beginning of) the Gettysburg Campaign. If true, his judgment would have likely been clouded and he never would have ordered the Charge.

I have heard the same theory. Another thing to consider is that Lee knew what was going on down in Vicksburg and knew what the outcome there was likely going to be. He was pushing hard for a victory at Gettysburg to sway the Brits and the French into fully supporting the south. I also wonder if it would have been Jackson instead of Longstreet if Lee would have acted differently.

After making two trips to Gettysburg, two parts of the battlefield really stood out to me. One was the futility of Pickett's charge as another poster mentioned in this thread. Stepping out of those woods you already knew what the outcome would be. But, most shocking was the Maine/Alabama fight on Little Round Top. In movies and tv documentaries it looks like a steep, uphill slope that Maine had to defend. In reality, they were almost down in the saddle between Big Round Top and Little Round Top. They did hold the high ground but it wasn't as big of an advantage as its made out to be. If you go to the top of Little Round Top you'll see the monuments for the big, powerful (more important) states like New York. I can just see it "Maine, you little shit state, you go down there and hold our flank in the saddle. We more important states will hold this high ground." There is even a marker up there praising New York for turning away a major charge and saving the day. If I were from Maine, I'd piss on it and tear it down.

I heard this story when we went to 150th reenactment of Champion's Hill. Meade had a sister who was married and lived around Port Gibson. When Grant crossed the Mississippi, he took over her house as his headquarters and of course, he also took all of their crops and livestock for his men. Meade's sister wrote him a letter complaining about the behavior of Grant and his men so I can just imagine Meade getting the letter and thinking "Robert E. 17ing Lee and 70,000 confederates are marching at me and she's bitching about her 17ing pigs?!?!" LOL

[Bully13]

At the End of the Day, God's plan worked out. Slavery Ended and God's Country Remained United. The Nazis were defeated and so was the Soviet Union.

[TUSK]

Any of you Brainiacs know what role The Marine Corps played in the *War of Northern Aggression*?

[parabrave]

Any of you Brainiacs know what role The Marine Corps played in the *War of Northern Aggression*?

Sitting on some Blockade ship playing with themselves or sharping their "Bayonets with each others lips". Uoooaahhhhh

[BrunswickDawg]

Any of you Brainiacs know what role The Marine Corps played in the *War of Northern Aggression*?

From what I've read, there were only about 1,700 Marines when the war started. They then got whipped by Jackson at Bull Run, and then a bunch got captured in a botched assault on Ft. Sumter and later died at Andersonville.

[Jack Lambert]

Sitting on some Blockade ship playing with themselves or sharping their "Bayonets with each others lips". Uoooaahhhhh

Actually they kicked John Browns and his merry men asses.

[parabrave]

Actually they kicked John Browns and his merry men asses.

But that was before the war when they were led by Erroll Flynn and Ronny.****

[Liverpooldawg]

But that was before the war when they were led by Erroll Flynn and Ronny.****

LOL, actually by Robert E. Lee.

[Jack Lambert]

From what I've read, there were only about 1,700 Marines when the war started. They then got whipped by Jackson at Bull Run, and then a bunch got captured in a botched assault on Ft. Sumter and later died at Andersonville.

To be fair they were attached to a Army Brigade and lead by a Army brigadier. When the brigade broke the Marines just went with them. Also only one Marine Regiment broke and ran that day but he entire US Army broke and ran.

[parabrave]

LOL, actually by Robert E. Lee.

played by martin sheen. What was the name of the movie I am thinking about with Flynn and Reagan where they take out john brown?

[Bully13]

If you have never been to Gettysburg, go. If you walk out of the woods at the Virginia Memorial , look at the objective, and still think R.E. Lee is an elite general.....I can't help you. I thought he was elite, as Southern Mythology says, till I did it myself. Walk the ground, no matter which ground you go to. Staying in your car is......useless.

Crock of shit. It is no mythology. Try Britannia.

[Liverpooldawg]

Crock of shit. It is no mythology. Try Britannia.

No elite general would have ever ordered Pickett's Charge. If you walk out of those trees near the Virginia Memorial and look at the ground, you know. Many refuse to acknowledge it, but they know.

[Liverpooldawg]

Crock of shit. It is no mythology. Try Britannia.

No elite general would have ever ordered Pickett's Charge. If you walk out of those trees near the Virginia Memorial and look at the ground, you know. Many refuse to acknowledge it, but they know.

[Bully13]

No elite general would have ever ordered Pickett's Charge. If you walk out of those trees near the Virginia Memorial and look at the ground, you know. Many refuse to acknowledge it, but they know.

Not disputing the mistake at Pickett's Charge. Huge Blunder. But to ignore previous battle victories greatly outnumbered is short sided. Patton made a mistake or 2 along the way as well.

[Liverpooldawg]

Not disputing the mistake at Pickett's Charge. Huge Blunder. But to ignore previous battle victories greatly outnumbered is short sided. Patton made a mistake or 2 along the way as well.

All generals make mistakes. Pickett's Charge was so, to put it bluntly, insane, that to me it by itself knocks lee out of Elite status. I never felt that way till the first time I went to Gettysburg.

[Liverpooldawg]

Another black mark for Lee, Antietam. They way he fought the battle was masterful, but actually GIVING battle in that spot was insane. If that had been Grant or Sherman in command across the field the war would have ended right there. Even Mead, Burnside, or Hooker probabaly would have too. McClellan never even used two whole corps. Had he done so even he probabaly destroys Lee's Army. It's still hard to believe Lee gave battle there: He was heavily outnumbered and had his back hard to a major river.

[Bully13]

Good stuff and can't argue with you on your facts there Liver. If memory serves, Lincoln fired McClellan after Antietam. So hard to fathom 23,000 casualties in one 17ing day. To this day it remains the deadliest day in U.S. War History. Lee's ventures into Union territory were mistakes. He still kicked a lot of ass while outnumbered on numerous battles though.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Leeshouldveflanked

[parabrave]

Not disputing the mistake at Pickett's Charge. Huge Blunder. But to ignore previous battle victories greatly outnumbered is short sided. Patton made a mistake or 2 along the way as well.

Jim Gavin never made a mistake.

[Liverpooldawg]

Leeshouldveflanked

LOL, exactly.

[Bully13]

Just for the record.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=ZarXW9aGNq2Iggfm8r-QBg&q=Robert+E+Lee+Battle+victories&btnK=Google+Search&oq=Robert+E+Lee+Battle+victories&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39.6515.19237..19621...0.0..0.107.2433.28 j2......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j0i131j0i131i20i264j0i67j0i131i67j0i20 i264j0i20i263i264j0i20i263j0i22i30.GHWOIYJFx9M


Lee won; Chancellorsville, Cold Harbor, Fredicksburg, Spotsylvania, The Wilderness, Seven Days Battles, Second Manassas. He fought a much larger army under McClellan to a draw at Antietam,

[parabrave]

There is a good youtube vid by the army war college titled why Stuart was at Carlise. Think some of you guys who are Gettysburg geeks might enjoy this and answer some of your questions.

[Liverpooldawg]

Just for the record.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=ZarXW9aGNq2Iggfm8r-QBg&q=Robert+E+Lee+Battle+victories&btnK=Google+Search&oq=Robert+E+Lee+Battle+victories&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39.6515.19237..19621...0.0..0.107.2433.28 j2......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j0i131j0i131i20i264j0i67j0i131i67j0i20 i264j0i20i263i264j0i20i263j0i22i30.GHWOIYJFx9M


Lee won; Chancellorsville, Cold Harbor, Fredicksburg, Spotsylvania, The Wilderness, Seven Days Battles, Second Manassas. He fought a much larger army under McClellan to a draw at Antietam,

Spotsylvania and the Wilderness were not Confederate victories. At best for the Confederates they were tactical draws. They were strategic victories for Grant. Lee won at Chancellorsville strictly due to the advice and actions of Jackson. Lee and Jackson were a great team. Jackson had his faults as well but I consider him the best southern general.

[BrunswickDawg]

Spotsylvania and the Wilderness were not Confederate victories. At best for the Confederates they were tactical draws. They were strategic victories for Grant. Lee won at Chancellorsville strictly due to the advice and actions of Jackson. Lee and Jackson were a great team. Jackson had his faults as well but I consider him the best southern general.

And you could debate Chancellorsville. Yes, Lee won against overwhelming numbers and forces a Union withdrawal. But, he lost 20%+ of his men as casualties. That is a substantial sum, and if the Union had realized it the war would have been over within days of it - or at least the Virginia portion of the campaign. That was a huge gamble for Lee to make.

[Liverpooldawg]

And you could debate Chancellorsville. Yes, Lee won against overwhelming numbers and forces a Union withdrawal. But, he lost 20%+ of his men as casualties. That is a substantial sum, and if the Union had realized it the war would have been over within days of it - or at least the Virginia portion of the campaign. That was a huge gamble for Lee to make.

Yep, Hooker still had the far larger Army. He never recovered from Jackson's flank attack mentally. Lee was fortunate in that he faced inept commanders until he faced Meade. When Grant came east the jig was up.

[Bully13]

Lee took extreme gambles that cost lots of his men and so did Patton. I thank you all who know more about war history than I do. I've enjoyed reading y'all's takes. thank you all.

In the End, His Truth Marched On. God had his plan. I'm convinced he put our country here for his Divine Purpose. He does work in mysterious ways though. The only thing I will add is that I think in 2018, we judge those in 1860 too harshly. Things were different then. We continue to evolve and eventually, we will hopefully live our lives as Jesus said where we Love Thy God With All Our Heart and Soul, and Love thy Neighbor as Thyself.

After the Civil War ended, Lee was at Church. He went arm and arm with a black man to take Communion. The folks in the Church were shocked. When asked why he did it, his response was "It's Time to Move On". That's what's important in my opinion. Evolution did not end when men learned to walk erect, Evolution continues to this day.

And the KING OF ROCK N' ROLL could not express it any better: enjoy, that is if you have any balls and red American Blood:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vISPgbosZUw

And why not a little Ray?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg

[parabrave]

Hey guys The Civil war isn't one of my specialties like WW2 and Vietnam so ya'll tell me what good books to read esp about Gettysburg. I do have a working knowledge of the war but besides Chickamagua, which I had to study in my advanced army courses I'm an amateur. I have read Lees lieutenants, Gods and Generals and am waiting on my Ted Turner signed Video. There is a book by J. Kunkel titled" Our Fathers at Gettysburg" which has snippets on youTube with Maps. Has anyone read this.

[Liverpooldawg]

Gettysburg: The Second Day by Harry Pfanz
Gettysburg by Stephen Sears
They Met at Gettysburg by Edward Stackpole

Those are the ones I have that are Specific to Gettysburg. I have many others that touch on it. You have already read one of the best of those. Lee's Lieutenants is fantastic. My favorite battle, and the one I have the most on, is Shiloh. I live up in North Miss so I get to Shiloh quite often. I went the first time when I was six. It's even more fascinating to me than Gettysburg. There are a bunch of what ifs at Shiloh that affected the course of the whole war, and not just in the West.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Yep, Hooker still had the far larger Army. He never recovered from Jackson's flank attack mentally. Lee was fortunate in that he faced inept commanders until he faced Meade. When Grant came east the jig was up.

Grant had every advantage you could have except he was fighting on southern ground and not up north. Grant was a meat grinder and he paid for every step he got in blood.

Lee gave Grant all he wanted and then some. The north had every advantage except lesser leadership and in my opinion, a lesser army. The Army of Northern Virginia was and is the greatest army to ever step on a battlefield

[BuckyIsAB****]

Spotsylvania and the Wilderness were not Confederate victories. At best for the Confederates they were tactical draws. They were strategic victories for Grant. Lee won at Chancellorsville strictly due to the advice and actions of Jackson. Lee and Jackson were a great team. Jackson had his faults as well but I consider him the best southern general.

So Grant won a strategic victory by sending his men into heavily fortified positions in both battles and getting them slaughtered, following that up by attacking again? Move by the left flank is all Grant did. Lee saw it coming every time and made him pay for it.

Maybe you would too if you had had more men, more food, and more guns. Except maybe you wouldnt suffer double the casualties your enemy did. acting like those were victories for Grant and that it was some marvel of generalship is just ignorant.

[BrunswickDawg]

So Grant won a strategic victory by sending his men into heavily fortified positions in both battles and getting them slaughtered, following that up by attacking again? Move by the left flank is all Grant did. Lee saw it coming every time and made him pay for it.

Maybe you would too if you had had more men, more food, and more guns. Except maybe you wouldnt suffer double the casualties your enemy did. acting like those were victories for Grant and that it was some marvel of generalship is just ignorant.

I always looked thru the lens of what Sherman called "hard war". Grant and Sherman were determined to end the war - one way or the other. They would either overwhelm the South by numbers and pure devastation, or they would make the war so distasteful for the North that they would come to terms and establish peace. Other Northern generals had been reluctant to go all in and use the advantages they had. They were living in the past centuries concepts of chivalry and honor where much smaller armies incurred much smaller casualty rates. Grant and Sherman - along with Joe Johnston - basically invented modern warfare as we know it. Grant and Sherman through their total war approach; Joe Johnston thru his innovated use of trench warfare in the Atlanta campaign.

Not to hijack this - but growing up with Kennesaw Mtn. as my backyard (literally), I've always been fascinated by earthworks and trench warfare. We had a remnant of a trench in my front yard as a kid, and I knew most of the earthworks from Little Kennesaw Mtn. to Kolb Farm. What Johnston did to try to create a stalemate and protect Atlanta as long as possible was groundbreaking. The Kennesaw Mountain line, and to an even greater degree Johnston's River Line, while designed in implemented by Francis Shoup - recognized the strategic possibilities and they created some of the most fascinating and innovative defenses of the era.

[Liverpooldawg]

Grant had every advantage you could have except he was fighting on southern ground and not up north. Grant was a meat grinder and he paid for every step he got in blood.

Lee gave Grant all he wanted and then some. The north had every advantage except lesser leadership and in my opinion, a lesser army. The Army of Northern Virginia was and is the greatest army to ever step on a battlefield
Grant wasn't necessarily a meat grinder. That reputation is undeserved. His masterful Vicksburg campaign was anything but. Now in Virginia, given the terrain, and the fact that he was facing a general that was not going to be beaten by manouver in tht terrain, Grant did use a sledgehammer instead of a rapier. He was the first Union general in the East who was willing to use the Union's inherent advantage. That's what good generals do, they take their side's advantages and use them to win a war.

[Liverpooldawg]

So Grant won a strategic victory by sending his men into heavily fortified positions in both battles and getting them slaughtered, following that up by attacking again? Move by the left flank is all Grant did. Lee saw it coming every time and made him pay for it.

Maybe you would too if you had had more men, more food, and more guns. Except maybe you wouldnt suffer double the casualties your enemy did. acting like those were victories for Grant and that it was some marvel of generalship is just ignorant.


As I said in the other post, Grant used his advantages. The terrain in Virginia all but dictated frontal assaults. There are rivers, with few crossing points, running perpendicular to the line of advance every few miles between Washington and Richmond. Had Grant been facing Pope, McDowwell, Burnside, little Mac, or Hooker then manouver might have worked. He was facing Lee (who I have never said was a BAD general by the way). He forced Lee to fight a campaign HIS way by using something Lee had no answer for, the Union population advantage. It's worked in other wars too, World War II is the outstanding example.

[Liverpooldawg]

I always looked thru the lens of what Sherman called "hard war". Grant and Sherman were determined to end the war - one way or the other. They would either overwhelm the South by numbers and pure devastation, or they would make the war so distasteful for the North that they would come to terms and establish peace. Other Northern generals had been reluctant to go all in and use the advantages they had. They were living in the past centuries concepts of chivalry and honor where much smaller armies incurred much smaller casualty rates. Grant and Sherman - along with Joe Johnston - basically invented modern warfare as we know it. Grant and Sherman through their total war approach; Joe Johnston thru his innovated use of trench warfare in the Atlanta campaign.

Not to hijack this - but growing up with Kennesaw Mtn. as my backyard (literally), I've always been fascinated by earthworks and trench warfare. We had a remnant of a trench in my front yard as a kid, and I knew most of the earthworks from Little Kennesaw Mtn. to Kolb Farm. What Johnston did to try to create a stalemate and protect Atlanta as long as possible was groundbreaking. The Kennesaw Mountain line, and to an even greater degree Johnston's River Line, while designed in implemented by Francis Shoup - recognized the strategic possibilities and they created some of the most fascinating and innovative defenses of the era.

If you want to see Civil War earthworks, both those intended to last and temporary field works, there is no better place to go than Corinth, Mississippi. It's by far the most extensive remaining collection of all. You have to walk, a lot. You won't see much from the road. I'd recommend going in cold weather, the ticks and chiggers are murder in warm weather, not to mention the snakes. Most of them are now located in grown up areas with trees now. You won't see large earthworks in open fields like at Vicksburg, but there are something like 30 miles of them still visible.

[EdDawg]

Johnston catches a lot of flak and when I first started studying the war I would agree with most about him. However, I believe the western theatre would look a lot different if he gets to Mississippi early enough to evacuate Vicksburg.

His soldiers loved him and he was not hated by his subordinates to the extent Bragg was. He believed that ground could be retaken and the army was what needed to be kept intact. He could have really given Sherman hell in GA if he wasn't so outnumbered.

[Liverpooldawg]

Johnston catches a lot of flak and when I first started studying the war I would agree with most about him. However, I believe the western theatre would look a lot different if he gets to Mississippi early enough to evacuate Vicksburg.

His soldiers loved him and he was not hated by his subordinates to the extent Bragg was. He believed that ground could be retaken and the army was what needed to be kept intact. He could have really given Sherman hell in GA if he wasn't so outnumbered.

Maybe. I think he got out generated by Little Mac in the Peninsular Campaign though.

[EdDawg]

Maybe. I think he got out generated by Little Mac in the Peninsular Campaign though.

Tough to really look at anything in the early war and hold that against the generals. They were commanding armies that were more than 10x the size of what they were trained for. The middle and late war is when the good generals really started separating themselves.

Now if Johnson doesn't get wounded does Richmond fall? Maybe, but like I said earlier Johnson was never worried about holding cities at all cost. He knew that was a trap like Vicksburg turned out to be for Pemberton and Petersburg wearing down the ANV.

[EdDawg]

Maybe. I think he got out generated by Little Mac in the Peninsular Campaign though.

That's what makes discussing these men and their decisions so great. When they went up against each other sometimes 2 juggernauts head to head or an unknown thrown in the mix, it's almost like the SEC west of generals. One never knew how it was going to turn out. Some had well organized plans that fell apart due to outside forces or just bad luck.

[Liverpooldawg]

Tough to really look at anything in the early war and hold that against the generals. They were commanding armies that were more than 10x the size of what they were trained for. The middle and late war is when the good generals really started separating themselves.

Now if Johnson doesn't get wounded does Richmond fall? Maybe, but like I said earlier Johnson was never worried about holding cities at all cost. He knew that was a trap like Vicksburg turned out to be for Pemberton and Petersburg wearing down the ANV.

Sooner or later you have to hold ground. You can't give it all up. Johnston was a competent army commander I'll agree. He was certainly better than Pemberton, Bragg, and Hood. I do cut Hood a little slack though, he was a very good subordinate commander and by the time he reached Army command level the Confederates were desperate. I also think he was better than A. S. Johnston. I've always rated J. Johnston along with Beauregard.

[BrunswickDawg]

Sooner or later you have to hold ground. You can't give it all up. Johnston was a competent army commander I'll agree. He was certainly better than Pemberton, Bragg, and Hood. I do cut Hood a little slack though, he was a very good subordinate commander and by the time he reached Army command level the Confederates were desperate. I also think he was better than A. S. Johnston. I've always J. Johnston along with Beauregard.

Hood was very good until he lost his leg. He had PTSD real bad after that. In his post-Atlanta drive into Tennessee he supposedly was ordering units into battle that didn't exist any more.

[Liverpooldawg]

Hood was very good until he lost his leg. He had PTSD real bad after that. In his post-Atlanta drive into Tennessee he supposedly was ordering units into battle that didn't exist any more.

He was a very good subordinate commander, very agressive and hard hitting. Those traits didn't serve him very well when he reached the army command level. If he had PTSD that certainly didn't help. I'm not that sure how fair it is to judge him by his post Atlanta actions though. The Confederates were desperate by then. They had no way of directly confronting Sherman and had to try something to stop him. That something was Hood's Tennessee campaign. Today it looks like a doomed from the start act of last gasp desperation. Hood obviously could never admit it, but I've often thought Hood probabaly looked at it that way at the time too.

[BrunswickDawg]

He was a very good subordinate commander, very agressive and hard hitting. Those traits didn't serve him very well when he reached the army command level. If he had PTSD that certainly didn't help. I'm not that sure how fair it is to judge him by his post Atlanta actions though. The Confederates were desperate by then. They had no way of directly confronting Sherman and had to try something to stop him. That something was Hood's Tennessee campaign. Today it looks like a doomed from the start act of last gasp desperation. Hood obviously could never admit it, but I've often thought Hood probabaly looked at it that way at the time too.

Read "Shrouds of Glory" by Winston Groom (yes, the author of Forrest Gump). It's a terrific look at Hood's Nashville campaign - which was actually a campaign to take Cincinnati. It shows how desperate the Confederates were.