Generation Murph

[BrunswickDawg]

I know Wright Thompson can be an OM blow hard - but articles like this make it hard to dislike him

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/24182944/where-braves-legend-dale-murphy-now

I'm one of those mid-40s guys described in the article. We may have liked other players - but Murph was the one we all lived and died with. That long swing was so pretty when it connected, and so crushing when it flailed at 59 foot curve in the dirt.

He deserves to be in the Hall.

[Commercecomet24]

Great article about a great man! Wish Murph would make it to the Hall!

[KOdawg1]

I read this earlier today. It's a great article

[smootness]

I think Murphy should be in the HOF, but it's not a slam-dunk case. He is penalized in the same way Andruw Jones is, that there's something that makes his numbers seem lesser (for Murphy, that his peak came in the dead-ball 80s, for Andruw that it was primarily his defense and he played in the steroid era) and he tailed off so much once he hit his early 30s.

Andruw deserves it more than Murphy, but Murphy probably does deserve it as well. From 1980 to 88, he was great most years, only occasionally simply 'good'.

[BrunswickDawg]

I think Murphy should be in the HOF, but it's not a slam-dunk case. He is penalized in the same way Andruw Jones is, that there's something that makes his numbers seem lesser (for Murphy, that his peak came in the dead-ball 80s, for Andruw that it was primarily his defense and he played in the steroid era) and he tailed off so much once he hit his early 30s.

Andruw deserves it more than Murphy, but Murphy probably does deserve it as well. From 1980 to 88, he was great most years, only occasionally simply 'good'.

I kind of look at baseball by decades. If you are Top 5 in a major statistic for a decade, then you should be a HOF lock. Top 6-10 puts you more on the bubble.
Look at HR's Top 5's -
1950s - Snider, Hodges, Matthews, Mantle, Musial
1960s - Killebrew, Aaron, Mays, Robinson, McCovey
1970s - Stargell, Jackson, Bench, Bonds, May
1980s - Schmidt (312), Murphy (308), Eddie Murray (274), Dw. Evans (256), Andre Dawson (250)
1990s - McGuire, Griffey, Bonds, Belle, Juan Gonzalez

The only ones from the 50s-80s not in the HOF are Lee May, Dwight Evans, and Dale Murphy.

Murph is also Top 5 in the 80s in RBIS will 929 (Murray led it with 996)

Baseball has always been a lot more stuck up about their HOF and not voted for some HOF worthy players.

[Bully13]

As far as generational comparisons go, I've always thought looking at how the player separated himself from the rest of the field during their playing days. You can't compare Walter Johnson's ERA stats to Nolan Ryan's HR stats from the dead ball era to the live ball era. That's why I've always considered Babe Ruth the all time Sultan of Swat. Go to MLB.Com and see how typical it was during his 10 yr heyday for him to hit 50 HR's and # 2 would hit 30 or so.

[Tbonewannabe]

As far as generational comparisons go, I've always thought looking at how the player separated himself from the rest of the field during their playing days. You can't compare Walter Johnson's ERA stats to Nolan Ryan's HR stats from the dead ball era to the live ball era. That's why I've always considered Babe Ruth the all time Sultan of Swat. Go to MLB.Com and see how typical it was during his 10 yr heyday for him to hit 50 HR's and # 2 would hit 30 or so.

Not only that but he was also one of the best pitchers in baseball before he gave it up to become a full time hitter. Babe Ruth is hands down the best baseball player ever, there isn't a discussion.

[BrunswickDawg]

As far as generational comparisons go, I've always thought looking at how the player separated himself from the rest of the field during their playing days. You can't compare Walter Johnson's ERA stats to Nolan Ryan's HR stats from the dead ball era to the live ball era. That's why I've always considered Babe Ruth the all time Sultan of Swat. Go to MLB.Com and see how typical it was during his 10 yr heyday for him to hit 50 HR's and # 2 would hit 30 or so.

That "how did the player separate himself from the field" metric is something I've always felt was wrong about the HOF voting. It is incredibly subjective.

Look at a guy like Sandy Koufax. He only pitched 12 seasons - the first 6 of which were mediocre at best (he was 36-40). He then dominated for 6 years (6 AS, 1 MVP, 3 CY) and retired. He only won 165 games and everyone always considered him a lock for HOF (Kevin F'n Millwood has more wins). Yet, a guy like Murph who was mediocre for 4 years, then dominated 6 of the next 7 years (6 AS, Back to Back MVP, 5 Gold Gloves), basically gets penalized because of his final 7 years being mediocre and being 2 HR short of 400.

The only thing Koufax did that separated himself from the rest is retire young

[Tbonewannabe]

That "how did the player separate himself from the field" metric is something I've always felt was wrong about the HOF voting. It is incredibly subjective.

Look at a guy like Sandy Koufax. He only pitched 12 seasons - the first 6 of which were mediocre at best (he was 36-40). He then dominated for 6 years (6 AS, 1 MVP, 3 CY) and retired. He only won 165 games and everyone always considered him a lock for HOF (Kevin F'n Millwood has more wins). Yet, a guy like Murph who was mediocre for 4 years, then dominated 6 of the next 7 years (6 AS, Back to Back MVP, 5 Gold Gloves), basically gets penalized because of his final 7 years being mediocre and being 2 HR short of 400.

The only thing Koufax did that separated himself from the rest is retire young

I think he deserves to be in the Hall to do nothing but counteract Ty Cobb being a horrible human being. Murph being very good for pretty much a decade along with the class he had playing the game should count for something.

[Cooterpoot]

Considering there are only 3 guys with multiple MVP awards not in the Hall, it's a travesty. Hell, Roger Maris should be in the Hall IMO.

[BrunswickDawg]

Considering there are only 3 guys with multiple MVP awards not in the Hall, it's a travesty. Hell, Roger Maris should be in the Hall IMO.

Bonds the other? And yes, Maris should be too.

[parabrave]

For those of you who are regulars at the MISS Braves games you might get a glimpse of him there. He does some scouting of the minors for the big braves looking at the top prospects. I met him in Biloxi 2 years ago while he was watching Albies, Swanson was already called up. Great guy.

[Cooterpoot]

Bonds the other? And yes, Maris should be too.

Juan Gonzalez, but he'll probably be in the same boat as Bonds (roid exclusion). Bonds is considered ineligible, even though he's not really. I should've prefaced my previous statement with that. The roid exclusions aren't counted in that.

[BrunswickDawg]

Juan Gonzalez, but he'll probably be in the same boat as Bonds (roid exclusion)


Juan Gon is a very under rated player. He really was wasted all those year with the Rangers.

So there are 4 players with multiple MVPS not in the Hall - because Barry Bonds won 5 MVPs and isn't in. That big ole steroid head is keeping him out.

[Cooterpoot]

Juan Gon is a very under rated player. He really was wasted all those year with the Rangers.

So there are 4 players with multiple MVPS not in the Hall - because Barry Bonds won 5 MVPs and isn't in. That big ole steroid head is keeping him out.

Correct if you count the roiders. The 80's guys get a lot of disrespect from the writers because the roiders blew up the stat sheets after them. If the future, you'll see a lot of 40 HR .240 hitters making the Hall. Guys with outrageous K numbers.

[msudawglb]

I know everyone loves Dale Murphy, but if he gets in the HOF, then someone like Dave Kingman deserves in as well. He had more HR?s in less at bats and same number of RBI?s as Murphy. Neither of them sniffed .300 batting average for career and both had about 1700 strike outs.

[BrunswickDawg]

I know everyone loves Dale Murphy, but if he gets in the HOF, then someone like Dave Kingman deserves in as well. He had more HR?s in less at bats and same number of RBI?s as Murphy. Neither of them sniffed .300 batting average for career and both had about 1700 strike outs.

I think you have to differentiate between Murphy and Kingman because of the awards. Kingman was an All-Star three times, no MVPS. He was not considered a dominate player of his era. He led the AL in HR twice but never got above 11th in MVP voting even in his best season.

[Bully13]

Considering there are only 3 guys with multiple MVP awards not in the Hall, it's a travesty. Hell, Roger Maris should be in the Hall IMO.

Roger Maris should be in the Hall for sacrificing all of his hair during the Mantle / Maris Contest Year among other things.

[Bully13]

That "how did the player separate himself from the field" metric is something I've always felt was wrong about the HOF voting. It is incredibly subjective.

Look at a guy like Sandy Koufax. He only pitched 12 seasons - the first 6 of which were mediocre at best (he was 36-40). He then dominated for 6 years (6 AS, 1 MVP, 3 CY) and retired. He only won 165 games and everyone always considered him a lock for HOF (Kevin F'n Millwood has more wins). Yet, a guy like Murph who was mediocre for 4 years, then dominated 6 of the next 7 years (6 AS, Back to Back MVP, 5 Gold Gloves), basically gets penalized because of his final 7 years being mediocre and being 2 HR short of 400.

The only thing Koufax did that separated himself from the rest is retire young

That's good info on Koufax, either never knew or had forgotten about the specifics of his 12 year stint. I guess it boils down to how many seasons did the player actually perform at All Star level?

[BrunswickDawg]

That's good info on Koufax, either never knew or had forgotten about the specifics of his 12 year stint. I guess it boils down to how many seasons did the player actually perform at All Star level?
Yeah - Koufax had a real interesting career. He almost quit after going 8-13 in '60 to go into electronics. He gets in tip top shape for '61 to give it one more go and then goes 18-13. He then rattles off one of the best 5 year stretches of the live ball era and retires with arthritis in his elbow.

[KB21]

I think you have to differentiate between Murphy and Kingman because of the awards. Kingman was an All-Star three times, no MVPS. He was not considered a dominate player of his era. He led the AL in HR twice but never got above 11th in MVP voting even in his best season.

Murphy also has a career 46.5 WAR to Kingman's 17.3 WAR.

[Bully13]

Yeah - Koufax had a real interesting career. He almost quit after going 8-13 in '60 to go into electronics. He gets in tip top shape for '61 to give it one more go and then goes 18-13. He then rattles off one of the best 5 year stretches of the live ball era and retires with arthritis in his elbow.

So in other words, had he not had the 1st 6 years of mediocrity, he would not be in the HOF one would assume. If he only had the 6 years of dominance, would not be there?

[msudawglb]

Murphy also has a career 46.5 WAR to Kingman's 17.3 WAR.

I was mostly making the Kingman comparison because I don?t think Murphy should be in the HOF. Someone that batted above .300 only twice in 16 or 17 seasons shouldn?t be the in the Hall unless they are a defensive juggernaut like Ozzie Smith

[smootness]

I know everyone loves Dale Murphy, but if he gets in the HOF, then someone like Dave Kingman deserves in as well. He had more HR?s in less at bats and same number of RBI?s as Murphy. Neither of them sniffed .300 batting average for career and both had about 1700 strike outs.

Dale Murphy was a FAR better player than Dave Kingman. Holy crap.

[smootness]

I was mostly making the Kingman comparison because I don?t think Murphy should be in the HOF. Someone that batted above .300 only twice in 16 or 17 seasons shouldn?t be the in the Hall unless they are a defensive juggernaut like Ozzie Smith

That's like saying Pujols shouldn't be in the HOF because Mark Grace isn't. It's a nonsensical argument.

[TUSK]

Are MLB voters as shady and vindictive as some NFL HOF voters have historically shown?

[Commercecomet24]

Considering there are only 3 guys with multiple MVP awards not in the Hall, it's a travesty. Hell, Roger Maris should be in the Hall IMO.

Right on!

[Commercecomet24]

Are MLB voters as shady and vindictive as some NFL HOF voters have historically shown?

Worse, Tusk! Way worse!

[Commercecomet24]

One thing to remember too, it's not just about offense. Murph was an elite defender with a cannon arm. He was one of the best outfielders in the game for almost a decade.

[Really Clark?]

I was mostly making the Kingman comparison because I don?t think Murphy should be in the HOF. Someone that batted above .300 only twice in 16 or 17 seasons shouldn?t be the in the Hall unless they are a defensive juggernaut like Ozzie Smith

Murphy won 5 gold gloves. His WAR is close to Jim Rice who won 1 mvp. Murphy’s OPS would put him a tie for 100th in the Hall of Fame with Barry Larkin and Roush, one spot behind Johnny Bench.

[BrunswickDawg]

So in other words, had he not had the 1st 6 years of mediocrity, he would not be in the HOF one would assume. If he only had the 6 years of dominance, would not be there?

I'm saying that we don't give equal credit sometimes based on some pretty arbitrary measures, that get thrown out the window when the voters want them to be.
If you had asked me in 1990 who I thought would be a HOF lock of 1990s pitchers who still had years left I would have said Brett Saberhagen and Doc Gooden. Sabes was 92-55 with a CY in 7 seasons - and was only 26. He played for 9 more season, but was injured in 5 of them and pitched sparingly. Doc was 119-40, with 4 AS games, ROY, and a CY in 7 seasons and was only 25. We all know what happened to Doc. So, Saberhagen and Gooden - who were arguably the best pitchers in baseball from 1984 - 1990 gets penalized for trying to fight through injuries and drugs to have a long careers while Koufax is regarded as one of the best ever.

Say Koufax had gotten surgery for arthritis (which were probably bone spurs), and comes back and fights through 4-5 more years and is basically a .500 pitcher over 80 starts and ends up 195-127 (almost identical to Doc's 194-112). Is Koufax a HOF?

[smootness]

One thing to remember too, it's not just about offense. Murph was an elite defender with a cannon arm. He was one of the best outfielders in the game for almost a decade.

He wasn't. His defense didn't really hurt him, but it was below average.

[smootness]

I'm saying that we don't give equal credit sometimes based on some pretty arbitrary measures, that get thrown out the window when the voters want them to be.
If you had asked me in 1990 who I thought would be a HOF lock of 1990s pitchers who still had years left I would have said Brett Saberhagen and Doc Gooden. Sabes was 92-55 with a CY in 7 seasons - and was only 26. He played for 9 more season, but was injured in 5 of them and pitched sparingly. Doc was 119-40, with 4 AS games, ROY, and a CY in 7 seasons and was only 25. We all know what happened to Doc. So, Saberhagen and Gooden - who were arguably the best pitchers in baseball from 1984 - 1990 gets penalized for trying to fight through injuries and drugs to have a long careers while Koufax is regarded as one of the best ever.

Say Koufax had gotten surgery for arthritis (which were probably bone spurs), and comes back and fights through 4-5 more years and is basically a .500 pitcher over 80 starts and ends up 195-127 (almost identical to Doc's 194-112). Is Koufax a HOF?

You're right about perception, but Koufax's peak was longer, better, and more consistent than either of those guys.

[Bully13]

He wasn't. His defense didn't really hurt him, but it was below average.

The 5 Gold Gloves were undeserved?

[Commercecomet24]

He wasn't. His defense didn't really hurt him, but it was below average.

5 Gold Gloves, 3 seasons of top 10 in putouts as CF, 6 seasons top 10 putouts as RF(led league 3 times), 6 seasons top 10 in assists as CF(led league once), 2 seasons top 10 in assists as RF(led league once), 4 seasons top 10 in Fielding Percentage as CF, 4 seasons top 10 fielding percentage as RF, 66th in career putouts as an OF.

I'm sorry but that's not a below average outfielder.