Babe 17ing Ruth---

[Bully13]

Once upon a time, there lived a man named George Herman Ruth, people called him "Babe". He was a large man with a happy smile. He travelled the country and people paid money to see him play. Because he brought them joy and excitement. People said he hit a ball so high it would strike a cloud and cause rain to pour and so far that the human eye could not follow.

It was said that his smile could chase away the dark and make the sun shine, and that with a wink of his eye he could make a sick child well again.

It has been written that he once pointed to a distant spot and then proceeded to drive a baseball to that very spot.

It has been said he could eat 25 hotdogs in a single sitting and settle them with one mighty belch.

It has been said he saved baseball after the scandal of the 1919 World Series and that one time the 3 most famous Americans were George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Babe Ruth.

Ruth was physically unique, possessed with a rare combination of lightening reflexes , superb judgment and timing and excellent eye sight.

He was a lusty eater and drinker, and by all reports a grand -scale womanizer.

take a look at 1921. he hit 59 HR. (for a 3rd yr in a row setting a new 1 season home run record)

Of every 8 HR's that year in the American League, one of those was hit by the Babe. think about that . has that settled in yet?

He drove in 171 runs and scored 177, an all time high. he walked 144 times. He hit 44 doubles and 16 triples. amassed a record 457 total bases and batted .378.

his slugging % was .846, the year before was .847 and if you don't think those are some potatoes, consider that no hitter in history except Ruth himself , has ever came within 100 points of either figure.

It was the single most sustained performance in baseball history. he hit above .370 six times with a high of .393 in 1923. His lifetime batting avg is .342. His life time slugging average is .690, 56 points higher than runner up Ted Williams.

between 1926 & 1933, he led the league in walks 7 of those 8 years. despite the fact he had Lou Gehrig batting behind him EVERY single 17ing time. If that does not prove he was the most feared man that ever stepped into a batter's box, I don't know what does.

he is , and will always be the all time sultan of swat, hand's down.

no batter has ever separated himself further apart from his fellow players in ANY player in baseball than the Babe. it's not even remotely close.

[ShotgunDawg]

Barry Bonds is/was better.

[Bully13]

Barry Bonds is/was better.

only a cold hearted "historian" would dispute the cold facts. nobody separated themselves from the rest of the field than Ruth. Nobody.

[msstate7]

Barry Bonds is/was better.

I wish Barry had not tainted himself. He was too good to cheat

[Bully13]

I wish Barry had not tainted himself. He was too good to cheat

roids vs hot dogs and booze . take you pick. wanna compare stats regarding the field? care to take a gander?

[msstate7]

Barry Bonds is/was better.

Baseball reference disagrees with you. I looked up the top 10 bWAR seasons of all time... babe Ruth had 6 of the 10 including the top 3. Bonds does have 2, but none are top 5

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml

[msstate7]

roids vs hot dogs and booze . take you pick. wanna compare stats regarding the field? care to take a gander?

I looked up bWAR for each, and the stats agree with you that babe was much better than his peers. If I need a hit bottom of the 9th facing Mariano Rivera in his prime though, I want Barry bonds in his prime at the plate

[Commercecomet24]

Baseball reference disagrees with you. I looked up the top 10 bWAR seasons of all time... babe Ruth had 6 of the 10 including the top 3. Bonds does have 2, but none are top 5

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml

This. Babe was hitting 30-50 hrs a year when most teams weren?t even hitting that many. Also this isn?t hitting but Ruth was a pretty dang good pitcher at one time, too. So many great hitters through history that you can learn from any of them from any era. Who knows what stats Teddy Ballgame would?ve racked up if he hadn?t lost 5 years of his prime due to military service. Nod has to go to Ruth cause he was first, he set the standard. Great hitters will always be compared against Ruth. Also Barry doesn?t have a candy bar named after him
Lol

[Bully13]

I looked up bWAR for each, and the stats agree with you that babe was much better than his peers. If I need a hit bottom of the 9th facing Mariano Rivera in his prime though, I want Barry bonds in his prime at the plate

no batter EVER came close to separating themselves from the rest of the field than Ruth. that is the ONLY way you compare yesterday's players to today's . Ruth will ALWAYS be the all time Sultan of SWAT. Hands Down.

[Commercecomet24]

This is one of the things I love about Baseball. Ruth would?ve been a dominant hitter in the 21st century, bonds would?ve been a dominate hitter in the 30?s. You can?t do these same comparisons with football and basketball.

[Bully13]

This is one of the things I love about Baseball. Ruth would?ve been a dominant hitter in the 21st century, bonds would?ve been a dominate hitter in the 30?s. You can?t do these same comparisons with football and basketball.

nobody separated themselves from their peers more than Ruth. Case Closed.

[msstate7]

nobody separated themselves from their peers more than Ruth. Case Closed.

Yeah, but how many of his peers would play today? How many 90+ fastballs did Ruth see? A hitter today sees pretty much nothing but high octane velocity and pitching specialists.

[TUSK]

Yeah, but how many of his peers would play today? How many 90+ fastballs did Ruth see? A hitter today sees pretty much nothing but high octane velocity and pitching specialists.

Did you just go and reopen "the case"?*

[Bully13]

Barry Bonds is/was better.

take Bond's best year. how many HR's were hit? what % were hit by other players in the NL?

waiting. the crickets are growing old.

[shoeless joe]

Yeah, but how many of his peers would play today? How many 90+ fastballs did Ruth see? A hitter today sees pretty much nothing but high octane velocity and pitching specialists.

All true but still doesn't change the fact that nobody was as dominant during their time than Ruth. He's not the greatest player of all time IMO but he did seperate himself from his peers more than anyone ever.

[msstate7]

All true but still doesn't change the fact that nobody was as dominant during their time than Ruth. He's not the greatest player of all time IMO but he did seperate himself from his peers more than anyone ever.

Vs his peers, I have no argument. Vs all time guys though, I do not think Ruth is the best

[Commercecomet24]

Yeah, but how many of his peers would play today? How many 90+ fastballs did Ruth see? A hitter today sees pretty much nothing but high octane velocity and pitching specialists.

The specialist part i agree with. But there were just as many if not more 90+ throwers in Ruth?s era as bonds.

And Ruth didn?t have the steroids/hgh help.

[Bully13]

Yeah, but how many of his peers would play today? How many 90+ fastballs did Ruth see? A hitter today sees pretty much nothing but high octane velocity and pitching specialists.

BS. we're talking what the guys went up against as they saw them. Ruth distinguished himself like no other batter in baseball history. period. do I need to go the MLB and post some stats showing where he led the league by 20 plus multiple times? how many times did Bonds, McGuire, Sosa lead the league by 20 homers ?

[drummerdawg]

Yeah, but how many of his peers would play today? How many 90+ fastballs did Ruth see? A hitter today sees pretty much nothing but high octane velocity and pitching specialists.

I'm sure a lot of them would adjust if they had the same training and resources players today do. Also, imagine what Ruth could have done if he actually took care of himself. The guy put up insane numbers and didn't even bother trying to be in top physical form. Bonds took roids to get his numbers while Ruth ate hotdogs...

[ShotgunDawg]

You can go either way but I take Bonds.

Here is why:

- Bonds has FAR more defensive value. Bonds had a life time defensive WAR of 67.6 & Ruth was -18.6

- Bonds had 500+ more lifetime walks than Ruth. Give him those 500 more BBs & his lifetime WAR is higher.

- Bonds stole 514 bases compared to Ruth's 123. Barry simply caused more headaches for other team.

- Ruth had far more protection in the lineup than Bonds.

- Bonds played in an era of bullpens & free agency, where he had to face numerous more pitchers once a game or once in a career.

- Bonds is the only player in history to completely change his game. Was an batting average/stolen base guy & then transformed into a home run guy. How he did that is irrelevent in this conversation.

We don't know if Chipper used PEDS, Vlad, Hoffman, etc. We simply don't KNOW, but I truthfully believe that if you were building a baseball team from scratch with any one person to ever grace planet Earth, you would choose Barry Lamar Bonds.

[dawgday166]

This. Babe was hitting 30-50 hrs a year when most teams weren?t even hitting that many. Also this isn?t hitting but Ruth was a pretty dang good pitcher at one time, too. So many great hitters through history that you can learn from any of them from any era. Who knows what stats Teddy Ballgame would?ve racked up if he hadn?t lost 5 years of his prime due to military service. Nod has to go to Ruth cause he was first, he set the standard. Great hitters will always be compared against Ruth. Also Barry doesn?t have a candy bar named after him
Lol

Probably would've been a hall of fame pitcher if he hadn't become a full-time player after his 1st 4 years in the league. Has a lifetime 67% winning record as a pitcher.

Held record for consecutive scoreless innings pitched in World Series play until 1961 when Whitey Ford broke it. Then Rivera broke Ford's record.

[dawgday166]

I looked up bWAR for each, and the stats agree with you that babe was much better than his peers. If I need a hit bottom of the 9th facing Mariano Rivera in his prime though, I want Barry bonds in his prime at the plate

I'll take the Babe. He also swung a 36 ounce bat. All while staying out all night womanizing, drinking, and eating hot dogs. And he hit .342 lifetime (I believe that is tied for 8th all-time).

Pitching was soo bad back then that no one has approached Cy Young or Walter Johnson's records. Not to mention all the crap you could load the ball up with. No doctored ball rules back then.

ETA: I've said since I was a youngster ... Babe is easily the best ball player of all-time.

[dawgday166]

You can go either way but I take Bonds.

Here is why:

- Bonds has FAR more defensive value. Bonds had a life time defensive WAR of 67.6 & Ruth was -18.6

- Bonds had 500+ more lifetime walks than Ruth. Give him those 500 more BBs & his lifetime WAR is higher.

- Bonds stole 514 bases compared to Ruth's 123. Barry simply caused more headaches for other team.

- Ruth had far more protection in the lineup than Bonds.

- Bonds played in an era of bullpens & free agency, where he had to face numerous more pitchers once a game or once in a career.

- Bonds is the only player in history to completely change his game. Was an batting average/stolen base guy & then transformed into a home run guy. How he did that is irrelevent in this conversation.

We don't know if Chipper used PEDS, Vlad, Hoffman, etc. We simply don't KNOW, but I truthfully believe that if you were building a baseball team from scratch with any one person to ever grace planet Earth, you would choose Barry Lamar Bonds.

How many homers a year was Bonds hitting before he started to take the 'roids? 30 - 40 or so.

[shoeless joe]

You can go either way but I take Bonds.

Here is why:

- Bonds has FAR more defensive value. Bonds had a life time defensive WAR of 67.6 & Ruth was -18.6

- Bonds had 500+ more lifetime walks than Ruth. Give him those 500 more BBs & his lifetime WAR is higher.

- Bonds stole 514 bases compared to Ruth's 123. Barry simply caused more headaches for other team.

- Ruth had far more protection in the lineup than Bonds.

- Bonds played in an era of bullpens & free agency, where he had to face numerous more pitchers once a game or once in a career.

- Bonds is the only player in history to completely change his game. Was an batting average/stolen base guy & then transformed into a home run guy. How he did that is irrelevent in this conversation.

We don't know if Chipper used PEDS, Vlad, Hoffman, etc. We simply don't KNOW, but I truthfully believe that if you were building a baseball team from scratch with any one person to ever grace planet Earth, you would choose Barry Lamar Bonds.

I wouldn't.

Several of the stats you spewed only occurred because he was a cheater. I wish he had never cheated because he was a great player without it...but he did cheat and his subsequent numbers came about because of his cheating.

[msstate7]

I'll take the Babe. He also swung a 36 ounce bat. All while staying out all night womanizing, drinking, and eating hot dogs.

Pitching was soo bad back then that no one has approached Cy Young or Walter Johnson's records. Not to mention all the crap you could load the ball up with. No doctored ball rules back then.

ETA: I've said since I was a youngster ... Babe is easily the best ball player of all-time.

Meh... look at mlb today and you see a ton of great players of color. I put at asterisk on anything football related pre-integration, and I do the same for baseball.

[Todd4State]

I did a major research paper on Babe Ruth and I am convinced that he was the greatest player of all time. You have to consider the era and the context of what he did and when he did it. He really was only a hitter for about 16 seasons- compared to something like 24 for Aaron and 21 for Bonds. Ruth played in an era that was not conducive to hitting home runs and the parks were much larger in general than they are now. Also, the rules were different- in Ruth's day if you hit the foul pole it was a foul ball and not a home run. There is a book called The Year Babe Ruth hit 104 Home Runs which basically poses that had Ruth played in today's era he would have hit 104 home runs at his peak season of 1921. Obviously, that's all speculative but it does give an idea of the context of how dominant he was then and comparing it to today's standards. He could have probably played another year or two with the DH rule too.

But the other reason I think Ruth was the greatest is because I think he would have made the HOF as a pitcher if he stuck to that. He was a 20+ game winner for the Red Sox and I believe he was undefeated for the Yankees pitching in cameo appearances late in the season. In his prime he was a better defensive player than given credit for because most people remember the out of shape Babe Ruth. He also struck out a lot less than people realize- he was an outstanding hitter.

I think if he played today he would be a DH/closer maybe like what the Angels are possibly going to do with Shohei Ohtani. I'm curious to see what the Angels do with him and how they use him. Ruth was probably one of the very few people that could have been a legit dual position player at the MLB level.

[dawgday166]

I did a major research paper on Babe Ruth and I am convinced that he was the greatest player of all time. You have to consider the era and the context of what he did and when he did it. He really was only a hitter for about 16 seasons- compared to something like 24 for Aaron and 21 for Bonds. Ruth played in an era that was not conducive to hitting home runs and the parks were much larger in general than they are now. Also, the rules were different- in Ruth's day if you hit the foul pole it was a foul ball and not a home run. There is a book called The Year Babe Ruth hit 104 Home Runs which basically poses that had Ruth played in today's era he would have hit 104 home runs at his peak season of 1921. Obviously, that's all speculative but it does give an idea of the context of how dominant he was then and comparing it to today's standards. He could have probably played another year or two with the DH rule too.

But the other reason I think Ruth was the greatest is because I think he would have made the HOF as a pitcher if he stuck to that. He was a 20+ game winner for the Red Sox and I believe he was undefeated for the Yankees pitching in cameo appearances late in the season. In his prime he was a better defensive player than given credit for because most people remember the out of shape Babe Ruth. He also struck out a lot less than people realize- he was an outstanding hitter.

I think if he played today he would be a DH/closer maybe like what the Angels are possibly going to do with Shohei Ohtani. I'm curious to see what the Angels do with him and how they use him. Ruth was probably one of the very few people that could have been a legit dual position player at the MLB level.

Give him those 4 to 5 years as a pitcher back and you're looking at an additonal 120 - 170 hrs.

[Todd4State]

Meh... look at mlb today and you see a ton of great players of color. I put at asterisk on anything football related pre-integration, and I do the same for baseball.

Ruth played a lot of exhibition games against Negro League players and dominated them as well. This may not be PC- but white people are pretty good at playing baseball too. Especially when you consider the fairly low number of African Americans in the game at this point in time to the point where MLB is having inner city programs to try to increase their numbers.

[Todd4State]

Give him those 4 to 5 years as a pitcher back and you're looking at an additonal 120 - 170 hrs.

That's probably pretty accurate. I believe Ruth actually led the league in home runs one year when he was a pitcher- I think he hit 16 or something like that. And then the Red Sox started to try him at first base and the outfield to try to get his bat in the lineup.

[Commercecomet24]

You can go either way but I take Bonds.

Here is why:

- Bonds has FAR more defensive value. Bonds had a life time defensive WAR of 67.6 & Ruth was -18.6

- Bonds had 500+ more lifetime walks than Ruth. Give him those 500 more BBs & his lifetime WAR is higher.

- Bonds stole 514 bases compared to Ruth's 123. Barry simply caused more headaches for other team.

- Ruth had far more protection in the lineup than Bonds.

- Bonds played in an era of bullpens & free agency, where he had to face numerous more pitchers once a game or once in a career.

- Bonds is the only player in history to completely change his game. Was an batting average/stolen base guy & then transformed into a home run guy. How he did that is irrelevent in this conversation.

We don't know if Chipper used PEDS, Vlad, Hoffman, etc. We simply don't KNOW, but I truthfully believe that if you were building a baseball team from scratch with any one person to ever grace planet Earth, you would choose Barry Lamar Bonds.

Gun Bully13 said greatest hitter not greatest all around player so defense and stolen bases don?t come into play.

[dawgday166]

Meh... look at mlb today and you see a ton of great players of color. I put at asterisk on anything football related pre-integration, and I do the same for baseball.

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, especially in football and basketball. Maybe baseball some too. But it wouldn't have mattered with the Babe.

Beside, there have been far more white dudes throwing smoke than blacks, even post-integration. There's 1 Bob Gibson. There's a ton of Curt Schillings.

[Commercecomet24]

I did a major research paper on Babe Ruth and I am convinced that he was the greatest player of all time. You have to consider the era and the context of what he did and when he did it. He really was only a hitter for about 16 seasons- compared to something like 24 for Aaron and 21 for Bonds. Ruth played in an era that was not conducive to hitting home runs and the parks were much larger in general than they are now. Also, the rules were different- in Ruth's day if you hit the foul pole it was a foul ball and not a home run. There is a book called The Year Babe Ruth hit 104 Home Runs which basically poses that had Ruth played in today's era he would have hit 104 home runs at his peak season of 1921. Obviously, that's all speculative but it does give an idea of the context of how dominant he was then and comparing it to today's standards. He could have probably played another year or two with the DH rule too.

But the other reason I think Ruth was the greatest is because I think he would have made the HOF as a pitcher if he stuck to that. He was a 20+ game winner for the Red Sox and I believe he was undefeated for the Yankees pitching in cameo appearances late in the season. In his prime he was a better defensive player than given credit for because most people remember the out of shape Babe Ruth. He also struck out a lot less than people realize- he was an outstanding hitter.

I think if he played today he would be a DH/closer maybe like what the Angels are possibly going to do with Shohei Ohtani. I'm curious to see what the Angels do with him and how they use him. Ruth was probably one of the very few people that could have been a legit dual position player at the MLB level.

This you nailed it, Todd.

[ShotgunDawg]

How many homers a year was Bonds hitting before he started to take the 'roids? 30 - 40 or so.

That’s irrelevant in this discussion.

I’m judging him as a player on the field.

Was he convicted of steroids?

[msstate7]

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, especially in football and basketball. Maybe baseball some too. But it wouldn't have mattered with the Babe.

Beside, there have been far more white dudes throwing smoke than blacks, even post-integration. There's 1 Bob Gibson. There's a ton of Curt Schillings.

This discussion started the premise that babe was more dominant during his era than any other player in their era. Kind of a valid point that only white players could play in Ruth era. Hell, the other player in this discussion is bonds who could not play then.

[dawgday166]

That’s irrelevant in this discussion.

I’m judging him as a player on the field.

Was he convicted of steroids?

Ok. Whatever. Give the Babe some 'roids, take away the late night women, beer, and booze ... adds probably an extra 10 years or so to his career. Probably looking at 1100 hrs or so.

[Bully13]

All true but still doesn't change the fact that nobody was as dominant during their time than Ruth. He's not the greatest player of all time IMO but he did seperate himself from his peers more than anyone ever.

Gracias. That's the point.

[shoeless joe]

That’s irrelevant in this discussion.

I’m judging him as a player on the field.

Was he convicted of steroids?

How can whether or not he cheated to gain a competitive edge irrelevant to the conversation of the greatest hitter of all time??? Especially when you're using numbers influenced by his cheating as evidence??!!

[Commercecomet24]

Ok. Whatever. Give the Babe some 'roids, take away the late night women, beer, and booze ... adds probably an extra 10 years or so to his career. Probably looking at 1100 hrs or so.

He would?ve had 850 hrs if he hadn?t spent first 4 years as one of the best pitchers in mlb

[Bully13]

Gracias. That's the point.

Except I think Ruth was indeed the greatest.

[Commercecomet24]

I can?t believe nobody has mentioned art shamsky as greatest hitter*********

[dawgday166]

This discussion started the premise that babe was more dominant during his era than any other player in their era. Kind of a valid point that only white players could play in Ruth era. Hell, the other player in this discussion is bonds who could not play then.

Babe one of my favorite topics. Josh Gibson & Satchel Paige would've been way up there back then too, but not by themselves.

BTW ... got to thinking on Andruw Jones. So researched it some. I'd probably put him top 2 or 3 defensive CFs. and definitely top 10 OFs. I knew he was good to great defensively. Memory kinda hazy on it some. I know I hated to see him come to plate in postseason after first 2 or 3 years in league cause a good pitcher would wear out that hole in his swing.

[dawgday166]

He would?ve had 850 hrs if he hadn?t spent first 4 years as one of the best pitchers in mlb

No doubt in my mind.

[msstate7]

Babe one of my favorite topics. Josh Gibson & Satchel Paige would've been way up there back then too, but not by themselves.

BTW ... got to thinking on Andruw Jones. So researched it some. I'd probably put him top 2 or 3 defensive CFs. and definitely top 10 OFs. I knew he was good to great defensively. Memory kinda hazy on it some. I know I hated to see him come to plate in postseason after first 2 or 3 years in league cause a good pitcher would wear out that hole in his swing.

No, Andruw is the best defensively. See if he could have played in Ruth era, he would have stole some of those HRs lol

[dawgday166]

No, Andruw is the best defensively. See if he could have played in Ruth era, he would have stole some of those HRs lol

Haha. Probably take about 100 or so off the Babe's record.

I'm going with Mays, then Andruw.

RF I'm going with Clemente.

[BrunswickDawg]

Here is what makes Babe Ruth stand out above any other player, ever, in baseball.

He single handedly transformed the sport. Everything about the game was changed because of what Ruth was doing. He showed that offense and power was the future. To capitalize on what Ruth was doing, they changed rules, the ball, changed the size of ball parks, and the philosophy of how the game should be played, all to focus on Home Runs. Name another player - in any sport - that has had that type of an impact on the sport.

[msstate7]

Haha. Probably take about 100 or so off the Babe's record.

I'm going with Mays, then Andruw.

RF I'm going with Clemente.

To be fair, I never saw Mays play. I did watch Andruw, and no one touches him since I have been watching. If you put any credence in fangraphs though, they say Andruw > mays defensively

[Commercecomet24]

Here is what makes Babe Ruth stand out above any other player, ever, in baseball.

He single handedly transformed the sport. Everything about the game was changed because of what Ruth was doing. He showed that offense and power was the future. To capitalize on what Ruth was doing, they changed rules, the ball, changed the size of ball parks, and the philosophy of how the game should be played, all to focus on Home Runs. Name another player - in any sport - that has had that type of an impact on the sport.

Great great post, Brunswick! He was the first, and set the standard and changed the game! Absolutely great post!

[dawgday166]

To be fair, I never saw Mays play. I did watch Andruw, and no one touches him since I have been watching. If you put any credence in fangraphs though, they say Andruw > mays defensively

To be fair I'm only going on Mays' highlights. The more I thought about it I have to admit I don't believe I ever saw anyone as consistently good as Andruw while also making the great plays, except maybe Griffey Jr.

Don't know about fangraphs ... you the stats junkie lol. I do a little research from time to time to either prove a point or make sure I will be or was accurate in a statement.

[Commercecomet24]

To be fair, I never saw Mays play. I did watch Andruw, and no one touches him since I have been watching. If you put any credence in fangraphs though, they say Andruw > mays defensively

7 you missed seeing a great one. I told my son the first time I saw Andruw make one of those patented plays in cf that he looked like mays. Those 2 were the greatest defensive cfs of all time no doubt. I loved watching both play so I can?t decide, I just call em 1 and 1a. And if you didn?t get to see Clemente play he was special! I cried that New Year?s Eve when they said Clemente?s plane went down.

[Bully13]

You can go either way but I take Bonds.

Here is why:

- Bonds has FAR more defensive value. Bonds had a life time defensive WAR of 67.6 & Ruth was -18.6

- Bonds had 500+ more lifetime walks than Ruth. Give him those 500 more BBs & his lifetime WAR is higher.

- Bonds stole 514 bases compared to Ruth's 123. Barry simply caused more headaches for other team.

- Ruth had far more protection in the lineup than Bonds.

- Bonds played in an era of bullpens & free agency, where he had to face numerous more pitchers once a game or once in a career.

- Bonds is the only player in history to completely change his game. Was an batting average/stolen base guy & then transformed into a home run guy. How he did that is irrelevent in this conversation.

We don't know if Chipper used PEDS, Vlad, Hoffman, etc. We simply don't KNOW, but I truthfully believe that if you were building a baseball team from scratch with any one person to ever grace planet Earth, you would choose Barry Lamar Bonds.

Based on the fact that Lou gehrig batted behind Ruth forever shows you are the stupidest MLB poster in the history of God.

[Bully13]

I did a major research paper on Babe Ruth and I am convinced that he was the greatest player of all time. You have to consider the era and the context of what he did and when he did it. He really was only a hitter for about 16 seasons- compared to something like 24 for Aaron and 21 for Bonds. Ruth played in an era that was not conducive to hitting home runs and the parks were much larger in general than they are now. Also, the rules were different- in Ruth's day if you hit the foul pole it was a foul ball and not a home run. There is a book called The Year Babe Ruth hit 104 Home Runs which basically poses that had Ruth played in today's era he would have hit 104 home runs at his peak season of 1921. Obviously, that's all speculative but it does give an idea of the context of how dominant he was then and comparing it to today's standards. He could have probably played another year or two with the DH rule too.

But the other reason I think Ruth was the greatest is because I think he would have made the HOF as a pitcher if he stuck to that. He was a 20+ game winner for the Red Sox and I believe he was undefeated for the Yankees pitching in cameo appearances late in the season. In his prime he was a better defensive player than given credit for because most people remember the out of shape Babe Ruth. He also struck out a lot less than people realize- he was an outstanding hitter.

I think if he played today he would be a DH/closer maybe like what the Angels are possibly going to do with Shohei Ohtani. I'm curious to see what the Angels do with him and how they use him. Ruth was probably one of the very few people that could have been a legit dual position player at the MLB level.

Thanks again Todd
OGood shit man. Let's not forget how he pegged guys at 2nt field with that gun he had from rt

The9th

[Bully13]

Thanks again Todd
OGood shit man. Let's not forget how he pegged guys at 2nt field with that gun he had from rt

The9th

17 me

[Quaoarsking]

Here is what makes Babe Ruth stand out above any other player, ever, in baseball.

He single handedly transformed the sport. Everything about the game was changed because of what Ruth was doing. He showed that offense and power was the future. To capitalize on what Ruth was doing, they changed rules, the ball, changed the size of ball parks, and the philosophy of how the game should be played, all to focus on Home Runs. Name another player - in any sport - that has had that type of an impact on the sport.

This is a really good point. George Mikan is the only other player I can think of to single-handedly transform a sport like that.

I'd still pick Bonds for the best overall player (I don't like the steroids, but pitchers and fielders were using them too), but I'll go with the Babe for best hitter.

[Bully13]

The commies got me

[BuckyIsAB****]

Im all for putting those guys who used PED's in the hall of fame bc I think its hypocrisy to not put them in but.....they absolutely should have an asterisk.

And bonds is one of those. Cant say you're the GOAT with an asterisk. Just the way it is

[Commercecomet24]

I love these Baseball discussions. Good stuff.

[Commercecomet24]

I will say this and it?s strictly a what could?ve been. If Mantle wouldn?t have had all the injuries and absolutely destroyed his body with booze and drugs he would?ve been the best ever. But it didn?t happen. Fun and a little bittersweet to speculate though,

[shoeless joe]

I will say this and it?s strictly a what could?ve been. If Mantle wouldn?t have had all the injuries and absolutely destroyed his body with booze and drugs he would?ve been the best ever. But it didn?t happen. Fun and a little bittersweet to speculate though,

But if he'd used steroids he could've still endured all those other things much longer and put up much more power stats

[Commercecomet24]

But if he'd used steroids he could've still endured all those other things much longer and put up much more power stats

True dat.

[Todd4State]

Here is what makes Babe Ruth stand out above any other player, ever, in baseball.

He single handedly transformed the sport. Everything about the game was changed because of what Ruth was doing. He showed that offense and power was the future. To capitalize on what Ruth was doing, they changed rules, the ball, changed the size of ball parks, and the philosophy of how the game should be played, all to focus on Home Runs. Name another player - in any sport - that has had that type of an impact on the sport.

Exactly. All of this. How many players or athletes from the 1920's are still talked about to this very day?

If people think that Cohen was bad about bunting they should have seen baseball in the early 1900's-1920 or so.

[Todd4State]

But if he'd used steroids he could've still endured all those other things much longer and put up much more power stats

That's why you have to judge players based on the era that they played in. No question that if Ruth had the advanced strength and conditioning that every player takes advantage of in MLB today he would have been even more of a beast. By the same token if Bonds plays in the 1920's he's probably still a 20 home run guy but nowhere near the 73 he hit or 700+ he hit for his career. And yeah- I know he would have been playing with Cool Papa Bell in the Negro Leagues but my point remains.

[Commercecomet24]

Exactly. All of this. How many players or athletes from the 1920's are still talked about to this very day?

If people think that Cohen was bad about bunting they should have seen baseball in the early 1900's-1920 or so.

Yep they were basically playing with a rag ball.

[Todd4State]

Yep they were basically playing with a rag ball.

And they were brown and dirty too. MLB only changed it because a SS for the Indians was killed because he couldn't see a ball hit off of the bat that struck him in the temple.

[dawgday166]

I will say this and it?s strictly a what could?ve been. If Mantle wouldn?t have had all the injuries and absolutely destroyed his body with booze and drugs he would?ve been the best ever. But it didn?t happen. Fun and a little bittersweet to speculate though,

You a Mantle fan *******

[Commercecomet24]

You a Mantle fan *******

You know it?s funny I hate the Yankees but the Mick and Brooks Robinson and Jim Palmer, were my first Baseball hero?s.

I honestly am a fan of any of the greats of the game regardless of if I hate their team lol

I met the Mick once and he was a super nice guy, very engaging and he wasn?t drunk.

[Commercecomet24]

And they were brown and dirty too. MLB only changed it because a SS for the Indians was killed because he couldn't see a ball hit off of the bat that struck him in the temple.

Ray Chapman.

[dawgday166]

You know it?s funny I hate the Yankees but the Mick and Brooks Robinson and Jim Palmer, were my first Baseball hero?s.

I honestly am a fan of any of the greats of the game regardless of if I hate their team lol

Never saw Mick play or many of his highlights. I read he was pretty good on D too tho. You reckon he in top 3 or 4 with Mays, Jones, Dimaggio maybe?

[Todd4State]

Never saw Mick play or many of his highlights. I read he was pretty good on D too tho. You reckon he in top 3 or 4 with Mays, Jones, Dimaggio maybe?

Urban legend is DiMaggio was jealous of Mantle when the Mick first came up. Apparently one time there was a fly ball hit to the OF and DiMaggio didn't warn the Mick about a sprinkler head in the area and Mantle tripped over it and tore his knee up. Not sure how accurate that totally is.

[dawgday166]

Urban legend is DiMaggio was jealous of Mantle when the Mick first came up. Apparently one time there was a fly ball hit to the OF and DiMaggio didn't warn the Mick about a sprinkler head in the area and Mantle tripped over it and tore his knee up. Not sure how accurate that totally is.

I think I heard something like DiMaggio was jealous of Mick. Not sure about the rest tho.

[Commercecomet24]

Never saw Mick play or many of his highlights. I read he was pretty good on D too tho. You reckon he in top 3 or 4 with Mays, Jones, Dimaggio maybe?

I?m gonna say he was more talented than any of them, just on pure talent alone. He didn?t completely realize his full potential due to the injuries and boozing but talent wise absolutely! Mick was one of the fastest guys to ever play, he ran a 3.1 from lh box to first, had a cannon for an arm and probably had more pure power than any hitter ever. He hit balls further than anyone in history. He just didn?t take care of himself. What a shame. He knew it too. He talked about it a lot toward the end of his life.

[Commercecomet24]

Urban legend is DiMaggio was jealous of Mantle when the Mick first came up. Apparently one time there was a fly ball hit to the OF and DiMaggio didn't warn the Mick about a sprinkler head in the area and Mantle tripped over it and tore his knee up. Not sure how accurate that totally is.

Yeah it?s in micks auto biography. DiMaggio couldn?t handle the new kid with all the talent. Ignored Mickey and refused to offer any advice to him. DiMaggio had an agreement that he would always be announced as the greatest yankee ever. Great player but very egocentric.

[dawgday166]

If we say defensively Mick > Andruw we'll get State7 back over heah on this thread LOL.

[Commercecomet24]

If we say defensively Mick > Andruw we'll get State7 back over heah on this thread LOL.

Dang dude that?s hilarious! Mick was way faster than Andruw before his injuries and had a better arm. But after the injuries and over a whole career druw was way better defensively. Mick had more talent but druw has the stats and production defensively which is what counts

[BrunswickDawg]

Dang dude that?s hilarious! Mick was way faster than Andruw before his injuries and had a better arm. But after the injuries and over a whole career druw was way better defensively. Mick had more talent but druw has the stats and production defensively which is what counts

From everything I?ve read about Mick, and his early footage, he was almost Bo Jackson like. He had elite speed, power, arm. The knee injury was his rookie season if I?m not mistaken, so he lost that tool almost immediately and was still arguably the best CF of the era. He hit a documented 656 ft HR at age 19. He was the greatest ?what if? in baseball history and still put up unreal numbers.

[Liverpooldawg]

Barry Bonds is/was better.

Barry was/is a druggie. End of story.

[Commercecomet24]

From everything I?ve read about Mick, and his early footage, he was almost Bo Jackson like. He had elite speed, power, arm. The knee injury was his rookie season if I?m not mistaken, so he lost that tool almost immediately and was still arguably the best CF of the era. He hit a documented 656 ft HR at age 19. He was the greatest ?what if? in baseball history and still put up unreal numbers.

You?re Right about all that, Brunswick. Very good comparison to Bo. He really was genuinely a 5 tool guy. He hit more hrs over 600 feet than anyone that ever played. Lol there?s a whole website dedicated to it. Most folks don?t know but he was the number 1 RB recruit in the country and was committed to play at Oklahoma. He was the ultimate of power,speed and arm. Just a shame that the injuries and partying cost him so much. And he played through a ton of those injuries. I don?t think he ever took the field 100% healthy after his rookie year.

[shoeless joe]

Urban legend is DiMaggio was jealous of Mantle when the Mick first came up. Apparently one time there was a fly ball hit to the OF and DiMaggio didn't warn the Mick about a sprinkler head in the area and Mantle tripped over it and tore his knee up. Not sure how accurate that totally is.

If i'm remembering correctly mantle insinuated that he could've easily caught that ball and DiMaggio called him off late and mantle had to lay off oddly which caused him to hit the sprinkler head even more oddly leading to what doctors now say was prolly a torn ACL. So he most likely played his entire career with that torn ligament in his knee.

"All my Octobers" is a great read about his injuries and his many World Series. I read it as a kid but a lot of stuff in that book sticks with me.

[Commercecomet24]

If i'm remembering correctly mantle insinuated that he could've easily caught that ball and DiMaggio called him off late and mantle had to lay off oddly which caused him to hit the sprinkler head even more oddly leading to what doctors now say was prolly a torn ACL. So he most likely played his entire career with that torn ligament in his knee.

"All my Octobers" is a great read about his injuries and his many World Series. I read it as a kid but a lot of stuff in that book sticks with me.

That book is the best on Mick! The Mick is second.

[Coach34]

You can go either way but I take Bonds.
We don't know if Chipper used PEDS, Vlad, Hoffman, etc. We simply don't KNOW, but I truthfully believe that if you were building a baseball team from scratch with any one person to ever grace planet Earth, you would choose Barry Lamar Bonds.

Bonds wasnt that guy before steroids.

[Commercecomet24]

Bonds wasnt that guy before steroids.

Truth. He was great but he hit another level after steroids/hgh.

[Bully13]

The specialist part i agree with. But there were just as many if not more 90+ throwers in Ruth?s era as bonds.

And Ruth didn?t have the steroids/hgh help.

Thank you. Walter Johnson says hello.

[Bully13]

Here is what makes Babe Ruth stand out above any other player, ever, in baseball.

He single handedly transformed the sport. Everything about the game was changed because of what Ruth was doing. He showed that offense and power was the future. To capitalize on what Ruth was doing, they changed rules, the ball, changed the size of ball parks, and the philosophy of how the game should be played, all to focus on Home Runs. Name another player - in any sport - that has had that type of an impact on the sport.

That rocks sir. Pretty much sums up my original intent of the thread. Gracias.

[Commercecomet24]

Thank you. Walter Johnson says hello.

Yep the Big Train! Smokey Joe Wood, Addie Joss, Iron Joe Mcginnity, Cy Young, the list could go on forever of flame throwers from that era(although Hubbell was more know for his screwball).

[Todd4State]

Yep the Big Train! Smokey Joe Wood, Addie Joss, Iron Joe Mcginnity, Cy Young, the list could go on forever of flame throwers from that era(although Hubbell was more know for his screwball).

Yeah- Cy Young got his nickname (Cyclone) becasue his fastball broke wooden boards at baseball stadiums. I've been trying for years to try to translate how fast that would be since Thomas Edison was too lazy to invent the radar gun in 1890.**

[Coach34]

Yeah but there was only a handful of hard throwers back then. Plus Cy Young pitched every other day- so there is no way he had that fastball every time out

Players were smaller and didn’t train like today.

Ruth was the most dominant player of any era- there is no doubt about it. If he would have kept pitching he could have been a 300 game winner. Just amazing to be that dominant

[Commercecomet24]

Yeah- Cy Young got his nickname (Cyclone) becasue his fastball broke wooden boards at baseball stadiums. I've been trying for years to try to translate how fast that would be since Thomas Edison was too lazy to invent the radar gun in 1890.**

Lol it sure would cool to know exactly how hard they threw but if you play coach and watch enough Baseball you can tell how hard someone?s throwing.

[Bully13]

You?re Right about all that, Brunswick. Very good comparison to Bo. He really was genuinely a 5 tool guy. He hit more hrs over 600 feet than anyone that ever played. Lol there?s a whole website dedicated to it. Most folks don?t know but he was the number 1 RB recruit in the country and was committed to play at Oklahoma. He was the ultimate of power,speed and arm. Just a shame that the injuries and partying cost him so much. And he played through a ton of those injuries. I don?t think he ever took the field 100% healthy after his rookie year.

Damn good post. The Mick kicked ass. Gracias senior.

[shoeless joe]

Lol it sure would cool to know exactly how hard they threw but if you play coach and watch enough Baseball you can tell how hard someone?s throwing.

I saw somewhere, can't remember where but sure it was on MLB network, that folks who do this sorta thing figure Walter Johnson was the first guy to throw 90.

And I do not believe very many guys threw as hard then as they do now. Strike zone was MUCH MUCH bigger but I just don't think there were many guys at all that averaged too close to 90

[TALL DAWG]

Great baseball thread here.
Can anyone in this thread dig up which pitcher
had the best stats of all time against the Babe??
May not be possible to pull up since it was so long
ago.

[TUSK]

Yall know that I know less than dick about baseball, but does Ted Williams even deserve a mention in this conversation (as a BA hitter)?

[Commercecomet24]

Yall know that I know less than dick about baseball, but does Ted Williams even deserve a mention in this conversation (as a BA hitter)?

Without a doubt. Teddy Ballgame was a stud! Lost 5 of his prime years to military service. No telling what numbers he would?ve put up. Probably knew more about hitting than anyone who ever lived. The Science Of Hitting is a must read for any baseball player.

[msstate7]

When discussing the greatest hitters of all time, I always think of Tony Gwynn. Sure he was no power threat, but a career .338 hitter with an ops of .847. 3,141 hits and only struck out an amazing 4.2% in over 10,000 PAs

I do not put him in the conversation with Ruth and bonds bc Gwynn was a singles guy. He could really handle the bat though

[shoeless joe]

Yall know that I know less than dick about baseball, but does Ted Williams even deserve a mention in this conversation (as a BA hitter)?

Ted Williams and Stan Musial both deserve to be at the top of the list. I think Williams may very well be the actual greatest hitter that ever lived. The shift we see today was first used against Williams and he still didn't try to go oppo. He was one of, if not the best of all time and he knew it. He was a real life John Wayne.

[Commercecomet24]

Ted Williams and Stan Musial both deserve to be at the top of the list. I think Williams may very well be the actual greatest hitter that ever lived. The shift we see today was first used against Williams and he still didn't try to go oppo. He was one of, if not the best of all time and he knew it. He was a real life John Wayne.

Well said!

[dawgday166]

When discussing the greatest hitters of all time, I always think of Tony Gwynn. Sure he was no power threat, but a career .338 hitter with an ops of .847. 3,141 hits and only struck out an amazing 4.2% in over 10,000 PAs

I do not put him in the conversation with Ruth and bonds bc Gwynn was a singles guy. He could really handle the bat though

What's really amazing to me is Ruth had higher BA than Gwynn. Think on that one for a moment.

[TUSK]

Without a doubt. Teddy Ballgame was a stud! Lost 5 of his prime years to military service. No telling what numbers he would?ve put up. Probably knew more about hitting than anyone who ever lived. The Science Of Hitting is a must read for any baseball player.

I know something about baseball!!!!

Hangin' another banner!

[Commercecomet24]

I know something about baseball!!!!

Hangin' another banner!

Lol keep puttin? em up! What?s one more!

[Commercecomet24]

I know something about baseball!!!!

Hangin' another banner!

When Ted met Richard Nixon, he said hi mr president im teddy 17ing ballgame! Ted had a pretty foul mouth lol

[tcdog70]

Yeah, but how many of his peers would play today? How many 90+ fastballs did Ruth see? A hitter today sees pretty much nothing but high octane velocity and pitching specialists.

ok they only had 8 teams, so the talent was not diluted. They had pitcher that could bring it. you never heard of Walter Johnson? plus it was the dead ball era. I f the Babe had the juiced balls of today he would have hit a 100 homers--Plus back then pitchers threw from an elevated mound-it has been lowered since the 60's. because nobody could hit Koufax-Drysdale-Marachel-Score-Ryan Duren or the mighty Bob Gibson. Steroids>hot dogs.

[tcdog70]

When Ted met Richard Nixon, he said hi mr president im teddy 17ing ballgame! Ted had a pretty foul mouth lol

on of my best friends Caught for the Red SOX and he caught fungo for Ted in the spring--He said Ted had cuss words nobody had ever heard before. He said when he stuck his hand back for another ball you better have on e ready.

[tcdog70]

Haha. Probably take about 100 or so off the Babe's record.

I'm going with Mays, then Andruw.

RF I'm going with Clemente.

Jimmy Piersall might have been the CF of all time. but he was bi-polar and struggled with it.

[tcdog70]

That?s irrelevant in this discussion.

I?m judging him as a player on the field.

Was he convicted of steroids?

Steroids-hell no his head just doubled in size from eating Wheaties***

[BrunswickDawg]

One of the things that has always been fascinating about baseball history is that in spite of being the most statistically analyzed sport in the world, you still can not truly compare players from one era to another. So much has changed over the past 175 years, creating so many variables, even advanced math doesn't really work. The ball has changed multiple times. Bats have changed significantly. Battling and pitching techniques have changed considerably. The fields have changed in size, fencing, lighting, and ground conditions considerably. Player conditioning and nutrition have become required (although, I'd argue pre-war players were probably just as well conditioned because a) many worked off-season in manual labor oriented jobs; and b) they ate more natural, less processed foods that the body metabolized better - think "country strong").

The result are long running generational arguments about who was best. Love it.

[Token Bammer]

I have really enjoyed this thread and I wanted to say thanks for the quality read.

The Babe is the greatest of all-time in any era. He could have played and dominated in any era of baseball regardless of pitching, athletes, field dimensions, etc. The Babe's abilities were off the charts, and that's leading a rough lifestyle.

[Coach34]

Read a tweet today that said Babe Ruth is still 12th all-time in ERA as a pitcher. Thats really amazing considering his hitting numbers.

Here is where you really see his greatness in my mind:

94-46 as a pitcher
2.28 ERA
Only pitched in 4 games in his last 16 seasons as a player. He had 90 wins by age 24
He easily ends up a 300 game winner if he pitches for the Yankees instead of moving to RF full-time- maybe a 400 game winner

He had only 514 of his 2873 hits in his 1st 6 seasons as a player because he pitched. He could have easily added another 500 hits to his lifetime total had he just played OF full-time. That would have put him around 3,300 hits and 800 Home Runs

[Commercecomet24]

There are so many great baseball posters on this board. Very intelligent people(well at least most, ha) that know the game and the history of the game. Some awesome discussions.

[Commercecomet24]

One of the things that has always been fascinating about baseball history is that in spite of being the most statistically analyzed sport in the world, you still can not truly compare players from one era to another. So much has changed over the past 175 years, creating so many variables, even advanced math doesn't really work. The ball has changed multiple times. Bats have changed significantly. Battling and pitching techniques have changed considerably. The fields have changed in size, fencing, lighting, and ground conditions considerably. Player conditioning and nutrition have become required (although, I'd argue pre-war players were probably just as well conditioned because a) many worked off-season in manual labor oriented jobs; and b) they ate more natural, less processed foods that the body metabolized better - think "country strong").

The result are long running generational arguments about who was best. Love it.

Great post!

[Coach34]

http://www.baberuth.com/stats/

It's amazing when you look as his stats 80 years later and where he still ranks

[drunkernhelldawg]

Barry Bonds is/was better.

Of course you're right, and it's not close when you look at Bonds' durability. But The Babe is probably the biggest sports' legend of all time. He is a mythical hero, and he can smite an untold number of challengers.And that's the end of it.

That's why 714 is better fixed in my mind than whatever the actual record is today, a number I've seen but don't know.