Pondering our current football status (Long, sorry)

[CadaverDawg]

I'm somewhat disappointed in myself for not being more excited about what could be an 8-4 type season in the SEC. I always told myself during the Croom years that if we could ever become a 6-7 win team consistently I'd never complain again. So let me preface the rest of my post by saying, I'm content with 7-9 win seasons as all MSU fans SHOULD be....but that doesn't mean I dont want us to always strive to be better and take another step.

So with that said, I feel like we've reached a point where we're going to beat the teams we are more talented than, and lose pretty much every game against a team with better talent or a defense that can stop our run. Again, that's still good enough to win 7-8 games most years....but what are we doing to try and improve on that so that complacency doesn't set in?

My first thought is, we're recruiting playmakers at WR. I think that is the absolute right call, bc the only way a team with less overall talent pulls the upset, is to have playmakers that can win you games via 50/50 balls and pure skill. I'm disappointed that our staff allowed us to become so bad at WR considering our QB talent the last 4-5 years...that was just a failure at recruiting. BUT, we are addressing it this year and we desperately need to make sure Heath, Guidry, & hopefully Jason sign the dotted line.

The second part of the next step imo, must come via a philosophy change by our head coach. We have been trying to run our Kentucky gameplan vs the Bama's (& this year AU & UGA's) of the world for 8 years and it hasn't worked. Why? Bc our entire passing success is determined on the ability to run. When we can't run, we can't pass. This is only going to become a bigger and bigger problem until we get the better WR's on campus, bc teams are just going to go all in on the run game.

So my question is, what are we (what is Dan) doing to try to adjust & give us a better shot at competing with a Bama this year for instance? Obviously, we aren't likely to win that game. But what is/has Dan been doing to try to give us a puncher's chance? That's where I'm frustrated. There are always going to be 3-4 teams minimum in this league that can stop our run, so if we are truly trying to compete for Championship's, how are we preparing ourselves to beat those 3-4 teams each year? Are we doing anything? Are we trying to revamp our passing playbook? Or are we just hoping that a better raw passer at QB + a few D1 caliber receivers, will equal a passing game capable of getting us to a new level? Because I don't think it's ONLY a talent issue. I feel like Dan lacks the confidence in coaching a passing game, so he gets ultra conservative and abandons all creativity against these A teams we're talking about. That isn't a talent thing, and I hope he's working on that. During the offseason there was an article where other coaches in the SEC anonymously critiqued their SEC counterparts....one coach said Dan was a good coach, but he wasn't hard to prepare for because you know what he's going to run, you just have to execute. That is concerning to me, and shows a lack of creativity and adjustments.

We are never going to recruit well enough to line up and out-talent the Bama's or this year's UGA's & even AU's of the world.....so are we just going to keep conceding those games, or at some point are we going to try something they aren't expecting. I know many of you have sat at home like me and been able to predict several play calls in a row in big games...if we can, Smart can & Saban can, and many others can.

So with everything I've said above being the case....do you ever see Dan becoming more creative or becoming less tight in those big games? Or do you think we just need to accept that most years with Dan we have a great shot at 7-9 wins, which is awesome, but that we won't even be competitive with the top 2-3 teams in the SEC? And if so, how does that make you feel? I feel like I'm there, and while I don't want to get rid of Mullen and lose the 7-9 wins per year, I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm not a little disappointed thinking that despite how great Mullen has done, we probably don't have a realistic shot at winning the West with Dan, but can count on every year being a great year in "MSU standards".

Ultimately, I'm just curious if anybody else is feeling the same way, and what you think about it? Am I missing some adjustments? Because I could be. Again, this thread isn't bashing Mullen, he's our best ever and I don't want to lose him. I'm just thinking maybe we reached that ceiling and it's time to just adjust my expectations and just enjoy our best years ever and the talent we're putting on the field compared to years' past. It's just a weird feeling, bc I'm very grateful as a long time Dawg that knows how bad it can be...makes me feel guilty to say I wish we could make a few adjustments that could give us a little more, because I definitely think we have one of the best coaches in the country. I'm just wondering if he'll ever have the talent needed for us to compete for the West with his system. But I'll gladly take this over years past if not. Maybe these last 8 years are the MSU mountain top.

Thoughts? Sorry for long post.

[Homedawg]

Honestly, the only way to beat bama from our perspective is, play damn near perfect, they turn it over and we take advantage(see ole miss) and/or we get lucky as hell(again see ole miss). They have sooooo much more talent than us from top to bottom it's going to take the Villanova Georgetown scenario to win. And in the past we've done "creative" stuff against them, reverse pass etc etc. it just hasn't worked. I know everyone complains dan is not creative yada yada, but fact is, creative or not, they are just superior. If that hurts ones feelings, so be it. But don't misunderstand, it doesn't mean I want to lay down and not try. Hell 1980 happened, it can again.

[starkvegasdawg]

While I?m happy winning 7-9 every year, I?m not content doing so if that makes any sense. Anyone that?s been a state fan for more then ten years will never take a consistent 7-9 win seasons for granted. What?s been infuriating, though, is that these past few seasons we?ve always just been one or two pieces away from really being elite. Here lately it?s been WR, kicker, and OL. Looks like we?ve addressed kicker and addressing WR and I read on another board that supposedly Hev had a come to Jesus meeting. I really hope that?s true. As for Mullen coaching scared in big games...maybe Megan needs to give him a nice hummer before they take the field to loosen him up.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Mullen is a 6-8 win per year coach....he made himself rich being good enough to beat the teams he should beat...I don't think he has the 12 -15 hour per day grind that Saban does , nor will he.

[tcdog70]

It's not just MSU, very few teams beat the BamaS and Georgias . Who can you stick in the SEC west and think they will have a good chance to win it.. maybe, Ohio St --who else? Not frigging many.we are unluckily this year to play the best team in the East. Guess what they will whip everyone's ass but maybe Bama.

[CadaverDawg]

Honestly, the only way to beat bama from our perspective is, play damn near perfect, they turn it over and we take advantage(see ole miss) and/or we get lucky as hell(again see ole miss). They have sooooo much more talent than us from top to bottom it's going to take the Villanova Georgetown scenario to win. And in the past we've done "creative" stuff against them, reverse pass etc etc. it just hasn't worked. I know everyone complains dan is not creative yada yada, but fact is, creative or not, they are just superior. If that hurts ones feelings, so be it. But don't misunderstand, it doesn't mean I want to lay down and not try. Hell 1980 happened, it can again.

I agree with you, and I think that's what I'm saying....Id rather us lose by 60 trying whatever it takes to win, than to do the same stuff we always do, like QB draw on 3rd and 5 all night, in a 50-3 loss like always. I know we still probably won't win, but why not let it all hang out.

[Coursesuper]

I think there is one factor that you aren't seeing when it comes to receiver recruiting, just how many have been purchased out from under us. I'll give you a hint it's more than one. This has also been a factor against us in other positions but most notably at receiver and OL. It is my sincere hope that shatstorm that is about to overcome UNM helps us here.

[CadaverDawg]

It's not just MSU, very few teams beat the BamaS and Georgias . Who can you stick in the SEC west and think they will have a good chance to win it.. maybe, Ohio St --who else? Not frigging many.we are unluckily this year to play the best team in the East. Guess what they will whip everyone's ass but maybe Bama.

I see this in response quite a bit, and I'm fully aware that we probably won't beat them....I'm not expecting us too....I'm just expecting us to try to. And lining up trying to read option Alabama to a victory is as good a chance as kneeling it every down on offense. Let's shake it up and see what happens....if we lose by 50, oh well, we're used to it

[BrunswickDawg]

Very good post Cadaver. It is definitely a conundrum feeing like we have achieved a level we all dreamed about and yet feeling that we have plateaued.

As an eternal optimist and sunshine pumper - I?ll try to give you some hope.

1) Dan is still a young coach. He has made many adjustments in his time here and seems willing to learn and grow (regardless of the Hev/Country Club criticism).
2) some of the needed offensive adjustments are already being addressed. Think about this - Key is our first big time QB recruit. Assuming he can attack learning the system, he has the potential to shatter every record we have. By adding big time QB?s - you are seeing better receivers committing - they know they will get the damn ball. No offense to Dak or Fitz - but neither of them were going to draw big time WR to come with them as recruits. Guys like Key, Maden, etc will.
3) We are using our resources wisely. We have money, and Cohen knows we need to spend on assistants to make us better. We saw it on D last year. I think we will see it more this off season.
4) To make the next big step, I really think we need Dan to bring in or promote someone to OC and let them take the reigns. Dan can focus on big picture and QBs.

We really aren?t that far off. But, the other big thing is someone needs to make Saban hang it up. He is strangling the SEC bit by bit.

[HoopsDawg]

What UGA and AU did to us was embarrassing and we know we have another one coming from Bama. That really puts a buzzkill on the season. We have a good team, but with our simple scheme on offense and lack of playmakers it is what it is. Everyone knows what we are running. I amazed my wife on Saturday by calling plays before they happened. If I can do it, you know Saban and SEC d-coordinators can do it.

As for the future, you said it yourself in your 3rd paragraph, sign some guys that can make plays down the field or turn short passes into big plays. The only other thing we can hope for is that O-line talent gets better or we get lucky on the O-line to the point where we can run the ball against the stronger teams. I have hoped since Mullen's 2nd year that we would bring back a Hemphill/Hanrahan type, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

[basedog]

I look at what Dan has done which has taken us to the next level. I’m not disappointed, all Coaches not named Saban have issues.

Bama is in another league. What a lot don’t realize is how tough winning in the Sec can be.

[CadaverDawg]

I think there is one factor that you aren't seeing when it comes to receiver recruiting, just how many have been purchased out from under us. I'll give you a hint it's more than one. This has also been a factor against us in other positions but most notably at receiver and OL. It is my sincere hope that shatstorm that is about to overcome UNM helps us here.

Good point, I agree.

And on the recruiting note, let me tell you guys a story.....I work with the Dad of a big time 4 star recruit in an upcoming class. His son is committed to an SEC school despite saying he loves MSU & our coaches. When I asked him why he wouldn't choose MSU, he said it's because every time Dan & the coaches talk to his son or his 4-5 star buddies, he talks about "building" and "being better" but never talks about "trying to win a Championship". I know that sounds silly, but he said that's why we will not be signing his son or his son's good friend that is also a 4 star. They want to win a 'ship, or at least play for a team who plans on winning one...and despite their praise of Mullen and our atmosphere, they don't think Mullen sells us as a Championship contender, but more of a constant rebuild. And the guy told me, " I know Dan's just being real, but sometimes these kids need to hear that you're confident you can coach them in to winning it all, not just "building" on a mediocre to above average program".

Just thought I'd share that for those interested. I will say this though, he has been extremely high on Mullen's recruiting. Says he and his staff have put in more work and been more effective than every team outside of the one he's committed to. So that's good news

[HoopsDawg]

Good point, I agree.

And on the recruiting note, let me tell you guys a story.....I work with the Dad of a big time 4 star recruit in an upcoming class. His son is committed to an SEC school despite saying he loves MSU & our coaches. When I asked him why he wouldn't choose MSU, he said it's because every time Dan & the coaches talk to his son or his 4-5 star buddies, he talks about "building" and "being better" but never talks about "trying to win a Championship". I know that sounds silly, but he said that's why we will not be signing his son or his son's good friend that is also a 4 star. They want to win a 'ship, or at least play for a team who plans on winning one...and despite their praise of Mullen and our atmosphere, they don't think Mullen sells us as a Championship contender, but more of a constant rebuild. And the guy told me, " I know Dan's just being real, but sometimes these kids need to hear that you're confident you can coach them in to winning it all, not just "building" on a mediocre to above average program".

Pass the message on to Dan. If that's true, that needs to change. Horrible approach and attitude in year 9 or whatever year we are in under Mullen. Of course every year Mullen says we are young so that doesn't surprise me.

[CadaverDawg]

Very good post Cadaver. It is definitely a conundrum feeing like we have achieved a level we all dreamed about and yet feeling that we have plateaued.

As an eternal optimist and sunshine pumper - I?ll try to give you some hope.

1) Dan is still a young coach. He has made many adjustments in his time here and seems willing to learn and grow (regardless of the Hev/Country Club criticism).
2) some of the needed offensive adjustments are already being addressed. Think about this - Key is our first big time QB recruit. Assuming he can attack learning the system, he has the potential to shatter every record we have. By adding big time QB?s - you are seeing better receivers committing - they know they will get the damn ball. No offense to Dak or Fitz - but neither of them were going to draw big time WR to come with them as recruits. Guys like Key, Maden, etc will.
3) We are using our resources wisely. We have money, and Cohen knows we need to spend on assistants to make us better. We saw it on D last year. I think we will see it more this off season.
4) To make the next big step, I really think we need Dan to bring in or promote someone to OC and let them take the reigns. Dan can focus on big picture and QBs.

We really aren?t that far off. But, the other big thing is someone needs to make Saban hang it up. He is strangling the SEC bit by bit.

Excellent post. Thanks. I agree, and that actually makes me feel better about things, ha

[HoopsDawg]

I look at what Dan has done which has taken us to the next level. I’m not disappointed, all Coaches not named Saban have issues.

Bama is in another league. What a lot don’t realize is how tough winning in the Sec can be.

Dan has had one competitive game against bama in 8 tries and that was 2014, Dak's junior year. Bama had a mediocre QB in Sims and we had a veteran o-line. Bama's punter, our 1B defense, and Mullen's play calling in the 1st half cost us that game.

1 other thing that is probably overlooked is really talented corners. That's something that LSU always has and that can really help you against teams like Bama and AU. We haven't signed a 4 star corner since Will Redmond.

[Homedawg]

I get it, and respect that persons take. But hell man croom mentioned winning a national championship, anybody can say that shit. Meh, we weren't getting whoever you speak of because he doesn't want to come here, not because Mullen didn't mention championship

[CadaverDawg]

What UGA and AU did to us was embarrassing and we know we have another one coming from Bama. That really puts a buzzkill on the season. We have a good team, but with our simple scheme on offense and lack of playmakers it is what it is. Everyone knows what we are running. I amazed my wife on Saturday by calling plays before they happened. If I can do it, you know Saban and SEC d-coordinators can do it.

As for the future, you said it yourself in your 3rd paragraph, sign some guys that can make plays down the field or turn short passes into big plays. The only other thing we can hope for is that O-line talent gets better or we get lucky on the O-line to the point where we can run the ball against the stronger teams. I have hoped since Mullen's 2nd year that we would bring back a Hemphill/Hanrahan type, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

Agree. Your first paragraph describes me against UGA...my wife was amazed as I sat there calling the plays before they happened, haha. She even said, " well no damn wonder they're getting killed, they can't even fake you out"...still not sure how I should have taken that, ha

[CadaverDawg]

I get it, and respect that persons take. But hell man croom mentioned winning a national championship, anybody can say that shit. Meh, we weren't getting whoever you speak of because he doesn't want to come here, not because Mullen didn't mention championship

Maybe, but we'll never know. As for Croom saying it...I would imagine that message would come across as more realistic coming from Mullen than it did coming from the couch sleeping walrus

[BuckyIsAB****]

Not trying to be that guy but Heath is not going to come in and be Eric Moulds for us as a freshman. Hes a good player hopefully gonna be a great one but hes not the big 6-3 220 pound WRs yall are having wet dreams about. Guidry is a burner definite downfield threat but hes not Julio Jones. Dont know a whole lot about Jason to be honest.

Hopefully Jason is a stud but at what point has Mullen ever thrown true freshman WRs or at any position for that matter into the fire. Kylin Hill is getting the most PT out of any true freshman I can remember under Dan. We have guys that can play there, Couch, Todd, Mitchell all are the big WRs we want. This is Todd and Mitchells first year of major college football. Give them time.

We are never going to throw the ball around like Ole Miss does. We are however going to beat them and be better than them for a long time to come. I guess my point is, getting to Atlanta is going to be done on the OL and DL, running the football (setting up our passing game) and defense and special teams. Its the way this game has always been and it aint changing. Name the last team to win a title running the air raid and throwing it around all game. I'll wait

[msstate7]

Very good post Cadaver. It is definitely a conundrum feeing like we have achieved a level we all dreamed about and yet feeling that we have plateaued.

As an eternal optimist and sunshine pumper - I?ll try to give you some hope.

1) Dan is still a young coach. He has made many adjustments in his time here and seems willing to learn and grow (regardless of the Hev/Country Club criticism).
2) some of the needed offensive adjustments are already being addressed. Think about this - Key is our first big time QB recruit. Assuming he can attack learning the system, he has the potential to shatter every record we have. By adding big time QB?s - you are seeing better receivers committing - they know they will get the damn ball. No offense to Dak or Fitz - but neither of them were going to draw big time WR to come with them as recruits. Guys like Key, Maden, etc will.
3) We are using our resources wisely. We have money, and Cohen knows we need to spend on assistants to make us better. We saw it on D last year. I think we will see it more this off season.
4) To make the next big step, I really think we need Dan to bring in or promote someone to OC and let them take the reigns. Dan can focus on big picture and QBs.

We really aren?t that far off. But, the other big thing is someone needs to make Saban hang it up. He is strangling the SEC bit by bit.

It really is easy to forget how young Mullen really is as a coach. When saban was mullen?s age, nick was winning 6-7 games a year at Michigan State. Hopefully when dan hits his prime (48-58) as a coach, he?s still here

[BuckyIsAB****]

Very good post Cadaver. It is definitely a conundrum feeing like we have achieved a level we all dreamed about and yet feeling that we have plateaued.

As an eternal optimist and sunshine pumper - I?ll try to give you some hope.

1) Dan is still a young coach. He has made many adjustments in his time here and seems willing to learn and grow (regardless of the Hev/Country Club criticism).
2) some of the needed offensive adjustments are already being addressed. Think about this - Key is our first big time QB recruit. Assuming he can attack learning the system, he has the potential to shatter every record we have. By adding big time QB?s - you are seeing better receivers committing - they know they will get the damn ball. No offense to Dak or Fitz - but neither of them were going to draw big time WR to come with them as recruits. Guys like Key, Maden, etc will.
3) We are using our resources wisely. We have money, and Cohen knows we need to spend on assistants to make us better. We saw it on D last year. I think we will see it more this off season.
4) To make the next big step, I really think we need Dan to bring in or promote someone to OC and let them take the reigns. Dan can focus on big picture and QBs.

We really aren?t that far off. But, the other big thing is someone needs to make Saban hang it up. He is strangling the SEC bit by bit.

4 will never ever ever EVER happen. You can hang it up big fella

[Quaoarsking]

Dan has had one competitive game against bama in 8 tries and that was 2014, Dak's junior year. Bama had a mediocre QB in Sims and we had a veteran o-line. Bama's punter, our 1B defense, and Mullen's play calling in the 1st half cost us that game.

1 other thing that is probably overlooked is really talented corners. That's something that LSU always has and that can really help you against teams like Bama and AU. We haven't signed a 4 star corner since Will Redmond.

I'm splitting hairs, but I would say we were competitive against Alabama in 2013 too. Lost 20-7 while turning the ball over on downs deep in Alabama territory twice in the 4th quarter. Had Dak not gotten hurt against A&M, we might have won it.

For that matter, I think we were only down 14-7 at the half in 2011 and lost 24-7. Not that we ever threatened to win, but it wasn't an embarrassment like recent games have been.

[BrunswickDawg]

Here is what Dan needs to say - “We work hard. You will work harder than you have in your life. You will be better prepared for life than any of your friends. If you do those things, you will have a career at the next level. Look at our 2 & 3 Star guys making big money in the NFL right now. And if you come here and do those things YOU could be the guy that makes us compete for championships. YOU could be they guy that writes his name in our history books.”

[CadaverDawg]

Not trying to be that guy but Heath is not going to come in and be Eric Moulds for us as a freshman. Hes a good player hopefully gonna be a great one but hes not the big 6-3 220 pound WRs yall are having wet dreams about. Guidry is a burner definite downfield threat but hes not Julio Jones. Dont know a whole lot about Jason to be honest.

Hopefully Jason is a stud but at what point has Mullen ever thrown true freshman WRs or at any position for that matter into the fire. Kylin Hill is getting the most PT out of any true freshman I can remember under Dan. We have guys that can play there, Couch, Todd, Mitchell all are the big WRs we want. This is Todd and Mitchells first year of major college football. Give them time.

We are never going to throw the ball around like Ole Miss does. We are however going to beat them and be better than them for a long time to come. I guess my point is, getting to Atlanta is going to be done on the OL and DL, running the football (setting up our passing game) and defense and special teams. Its the way this game has always been and it aint changing. Name the last team to win a title running the air raid and throwing it around all game. I'll wait

Well if there is any position a first year player can come in and win a spot, it's WR for MSU right now.

And nobody said we needed to go air raid, so not sure why you went there really...but being able to drop back and complete a few passes without having to rely on play action getting receivers wide open is something we need to be able to do.

[HoopsDawg]

I'm splitting hairs, but I would say we were competitive against Alabama in 2013 too. Lost 20-7 while turning the ball over on downs deep in Alabama territory twice in the 4th quarter. Had Dak not gotten hurt against A&M, we might have won it.

For that matter, I think we were only down 14-7 at the half in 2011 and lost 24-7. Not that we ever threatened to win, but it wasn't an embarrassment like recent games have been.

True. Good point.

[HoopsDawg]

Hopefully Jason is a stud but at what point has Mullen ever thrown true freshman WRs or at any position for that matter into the fire. Kylin Hill is getting the most PT out of any true freshman I can remember under Dan. We have guys that can play there, Couch, Todd, Mitchell all are the big WRs we want. This is Todd and Mitchells first year of major college football. Give them time.

We are never going to throw the ball around like Ole Miss does. We are however going to beat them and be better than them for a long time to come. I guess my point is, getting to Atlanta is going to be done on the OL and DL, running the football (setting up our passing game) and defense and special teams. Its the way this game has always been and it aint changing. Name the last team to win a title running the air raid and throwing it around all game. I'll wait

Derunnya Wilson started as a true freshman. Dan plays the true freshman that are talented and ready. Hard truth is we haven't signed a ton of guys talented enough to play Day 1. Kylin, Willie Gay, and Key are all playing this year. Devonta Jason is talented enough to start from Day 1 and Dan will start him if we sign him.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Well if there is any position a first year player can come in and win a spot, it's WR for MSU right now.

And nobody said we needed to go air raid, so not sure why you went there really...but being able to drop back and complete a few passes without having to rely on play action getting receivers wide open is something we need to be able to do.

Fair point. I would argue that we have had chances in games to make the 50/50 plays but we havent won enough of them yet. Give the guys we have time and they will. Getting Myles back will help us, hopefully Couch does more of what we saw Saturday. I dont think Mullen trusts him though.

But as far as a first year player coming in and getting a ton of snaps/targets? I dont see it happening. You are what you are at some point. Dan no like freshman playing.

You can always rely on running the football and playing defense no matter who you play if you're good at it. Championship teams do

[Homedawg]

Mstate brought up Saban at mich state. Amazing how much better he has been at lsu and now bama. I'm sure it's because he matured. Yes, I agree he's gotten better and mastered the process but it's a hell of a lot easier to get studs at lsu and bama than mich state.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Derunnya Wilson started as a true freshman. Dan plays the true freshman that are talented and ready. Hard truth is we haven't signed a ton of guys talented enough to play Day 1. Kylin, Willie Gay, and Key are all playing this year. Devonta Jason is talented enough to start from Day 1 and Dan will start him if we sign him.

Key is playing mop up duty, Willie Gay is on special teams (which is great and very important) and mop up duty defense.

As far as Bear Wilson playing you are right I forgot about skinny Bear

[BuckyIsAB****]

Mstate brought up Saban at mich state. Amazing how much better he has been at lsu and now bama. I'm sure it's because he matured. Yes, I agree he's gotten better and mastered the process but it's a hell of a lot easier to get studs at lsu and bama than mich state.

Nobody is going to atlanta out of the west except bama for a long time. Auburn got lucky 2 years selling their soul to the devil

[Commercecomet24]

I'm splitting hairs, but I would say we were competitive against Alabama in 2013 too. Lost 20-7 while turning the ball over on downs deep in Alabama territory twice in the 4th quarter. Had Dak not gotten hurt against A&M, we might have won it.

For that matter, I think we were only down 14-7 at the half in 2011 and lost 24-7. Not that we ever threatened to win, but it wasn't an embarrassment like recent games have been.

Yep youre right. Those Games were well played. We were within one score in 2013 and had the ball about their 30 in the second half. Unfortunately we had Damian at qb that whole game instead of Dak.

[BorneDawg]

Ok help explain to me that our offense is so simple anyone can predict what we're gonna run but yet it's so complicated that it takes or players (rb) 2-3 years to learn to do it right and one of the reasons Dak transitioned to the pros so well is because our offense was so similar to the NFL.....

[BuckyIsAB****]

I'm splitting hairs, but I would say we were competitive against Alabama in 2013 too. Lost 20-7 while turning the ball over on downs deep in Alabama territory twice in the 4th quarter. Had Dak not gotten hurt against A&M, we might have won it.

For that matter, I think we were only down 14-7 at the half in 2011 and lost 24-7. Not that we ever threatened to win, but it wasn't an embarrassment like recent games have been.

Those were come hardnosed ass defensive teams with NFL talent from front 7 to secondary

[Commercecomet24]

Key is playing mop up duty, Willie Gay is on special teams (which is great and very important) and mop up duty defense.

As far as Bear Wilson playing you are right I forgot about skinny Bear

Bumphis played as a freshman, Malik Dear, jamoral, theres been a few.

[thf24]

Good point, I agree.

And on the recruiting note, let me tell you guys a story.....I work with the Dad of a big time 4 star recruit in an upcoming class. His son is committed to an SEC school despite saying he loves MSU & our coaches. When I asked him why he wouldn't choose MSU, he said it's because every time Dan & the coaches talk to his son or his 4-5 star buddies, he talks about "building" and "being better" but never talks about "trying to win a Championship". I know that sounds silly, but he said that's why we will not be signing his son or his son's good friend that is also a 4 star. They want to win a 'ship, or at least play for a team who plans on winning one...and despite their praise of Mullen and our atmosphere, they don't think Mullen sells us as a Championship contender, but more of a constant rebuild. And the guy told me, " I know Dan's just being real, but sometimes these kids need to hear that you're confident you can coach them in to winning it all, not just "building" on a mediocre to above average program".

Just thought I'd share that for those interested. I will say this though, he has been extremely high on Mullen's recruiting. Says he and his staff have put in more work and been more effective than every team outside of the one he's committed to. So that's good news

Many things I've heard along these lines about Mullen suggest to me that he's unwilling to make any recruiting promises that he isn't near certain he can keep. There's a lot to be said for that; much better than the other end of the spectrum of coaches like Butch Jones who tell every recruit who comes through their door whatever they want to hear, and end up with numerous incidents of mid-season attrition because you've made it impossible for yourself to keep everyone happy. However, I think Mullen is going to have to learn to embellish at least a little and paint a more optimistic picture if we're going to make the next step to the consistent top 20-15 class range where we need to be in order to compete for the division more than once in a blue moon.

[bostondawg]

Excellent thread CDawg, I always appreciate your opinions.

I think you're spot on that Dan and co. will always beat teams we are more talented than (which is 4 SEC teams) and lose to the teams we are less talented than (which is 9 SEC teams, per 247 talent rankings). There's some wiggle room to account for other variables, like Coach O being a clown or OM having the backbone of a used condom. But all in all, we're a 7-9 win program. That's all. I want nothing more than to see us compete for championships, but until recruiting picks up, that just isn't going to happen.

Some assorted thoughts I have:
- I think our offense is great for being able to knock off better teams. Out-pro-styling Bama is an almost impossible task, their talent is way better. Not having to pander to 5* pro style QB recruits is nice too. We can make our hay with a spread offense with QB wrinkles. In short, for our recruiting vs. other teams' recruiting, I like that we don't run a traditional offense.
- Some coaches are builders, and some are winners. Sometimes those coaches aren't the same people. Could Saban win the SEC within 5 years with MSU's roster? Probably not. We don't have enough talented personnel to do what he wants to do. Meanwhile, could Dan win a natty at Bama? Probably not. I don't think he's a big-game enough of a coach to make it happen. In fact, it's the reason he hasn't left MSU for a "better" program--other ADs think that about him too.
- Dan won't be leaving any time soon. Fact of the matter is that he's a good coach who gets paid like a great coach. He's probably a top 25 coach but is paid inside the top 15. That presents a problem for another big school to pull him away--if you want to get Mullen, you're gonna have to shell out 5.5 million for a guy who hasn't really accomplished much except going to bowl games. For that reason, Dan is kinda in a career purgatory right now. I think he knows this: if he ever wants to move up and get paid more, he's gonna have to win more games.
- Because of this last point, Dan has two options: (1) find a way to win big games and compete for the West, or (2) pack it in, go play golf, and make 4.5 million a year winning 6 games. I fear that he's more to the (2) side right now. And who would blame him? This isn't his fault. We are way overpaying him for his performance, because coaches have inflated market value, i.e., we have to pay him that just to get 6 wins and to keep him from going somewhere else.
- As Dan is in a career purgatory, so is MSU. We are always gonna just be paying him way more money than he deserves to win 7 games a year. We're in a bad bargaining position--if we try to light a fire under his ass he can probably go somewhere else and get a few million. Instead we're just gonna have to pay him and shrug our shoulders at the results. Related point: legitimately, after coaching Dak and getting us to number 1, what would Dan have to do to get fired? We could miss a bowl game for four consecutive years and we'll just hear lectures on ED about how we're podunk MSU and need to accept our fate. If that happened Dan wouldn't get fired. This is a serious statement: I don't think Dan could get fired by MSU barring some moral incident.

A lot of us complain about the country club atmosphere of our coaching staff, but our athletic department created that. We're the ones who gave Dan 4.5 million for getting us to consecutive bowl games. We created that atmosphere. The whole staff knows, just go to a bowl game and there won't ever be problems.

All in all, I think we just have to settle for this. And I'm okay with that. If it means that Dan will win 7-8 games a year for over a decade, and then it's up to our next coach to try to take us to the next level, so be it. The blue hairs told me I need to be happy with that. In the meantime, I think all we can do is hope to fix the small things, like OL recruiting/scholly management and WR recruiting. I think we're already starting to see some of those things get a bit better.

[Coach34]

Good point, I agree.

And on the recruiting note, let me tell you guys a story.....I work with the Dad of a big time 4 star recruit in an upcoming class. His son is committed to an SEC school despite saying he loves MSU & our coaches. When I asked him why he wouldn't choose MSU, he said it's because every time Dan & the coaches talk to his son or his 4-5 star buddies, he talks about "building" and "being better" but never talks about "trying to win a Championship". I know that sounds silly, but he said that's why we will not be signing his son or his son's good friend that is also a 4 star. They want to win a 'ship, or at least play for a team who plans on winning one...and despite their praise of Mullen and our atmosphere, they don't think Mullen sells us as a Championship contender, but more of a constant rebuild. And the guy told me, " I know Dan's just being real, but sometimes these kids need to hear that you're confident you can coach them in to winning it all, not just "building" on a mediocre to above average program".

Just thought I'd share that for those interested. I will say this though, he has been extremely high on Mullen's recruiting. Says he and his staff have put in more work and been more effective than every team outside of the one he's committed to. So that's good news

This is 100% it alot of times. We sell the "lunchpail mentality" to recruits. That doesnt fly with WR talent that are typical divas and crave attention.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Bumphis played as a freshman, Malik Dear, jamoral, theres been a few.

Jamoral Graham isnt even here anymore, Bump was a solid player, Dear wont play his natural position. We will never get the best out of malik dear, hate he got hurt but its just the truth. That said he could be helping us now. Hate he got hurt

[HoopsDawg]

well, here's an anonymous SEC coach quote from athlon's:

"They’re kind of boring schematically when you really watch them and break them down. They don’t do a whole lot that concerns you. Mullen does a good job — it’s just not particularly creative. You’d play (Steve) Spurrier back in the day and he’d see something he’d like in the NFL on Sunday and you’d see it with him the following weekend. With Mullen, he kind of has his things he likes and that’s what he does. There’s no newness there."

"They’re always just OK up front. They’re going to be physical, and that’s been their M.O. since he’s been there, but they’re not super talented."

[Homedawg]

Bumphis played as a freshman, Malik Dear, jamoral, theres been a few.

We only play the older guys, don't ass up a theory..........

[Goldendawg]

Until something happens to bama and I don't know what it is, there is already complacency that there is no hope to most of the West teams to win the West or an East team to win the SEC. Heck, little hope for the vast majority to win a natty due to bama. Today in church I asked a good guy, but a hardcore bama fan (live on bama line) if it was not getting boring to watch their one-sided blowout wins and were they even interested to the final four playoffs? His reply? "Haters gonna hate". They are not even happy in their situation, they want us to love them and embrace their success as they have ruined all competition in the SEC West, SEC, and even the national title playoffs. Most everyone else is an also ran before, during, and at the end of the season. We will always lose top rated Mississippi players to them in this situation. If I knew how to change this, I would be a football genius and it has dampened my overall interest in college football, even as a 40 plus year season ticket holder.

[msstate7]

well, here's an anonymous SEC coach quote from athlon's:

"They’re kind of boring schematically when you really watch them and break them down. They don’t do a whole lot that concerns you. Mullen does a good job — it’s just not particularly creative. You’d play (Steve) Spurrier back in the day and he’d see something he’d like in the NFL on Sunday and you’d see it with him the following weekend. With Mullen, he kind of has his things he likes and that’s what he does. There’s no newness there."

"They’re always just OK up front. They’re going to be physical, and that’s been their M.O. since he’s been there, but they’re not super talented."

There?s no way sec HCs give those quotes in Athlon. If they didn?t just make up the quotes, the ?coaches? are about the level of brother Patterson at OM.

[HoopsDawg]

There?s no way sec HCs give those quotes in Athlon. If they didn?t just make up the quotes, the ?coaches? are about the level of brother Patterson at OM.

It's probably an assistant coach. Doesn't make it any less true.

[thf24]

There?s no way sec HCs give those quotes in Athlon. If they didn?t just make up the quotes, the ?coaches? are about the level of brother Patterson at OM.

I agree, I've always had a very hard time believing some of those quotes are things actual coaches would say to a media member, no matter what the circumstances. Just not worth the embarrassment if they decided one year to out you.

[Dawg61]

Nick Fitzgerald became only the 2nd QB in MSU history to have 25 rushing tds and 25 passing tds yesterday and not one single other poster has mentioned this besides myself. If you go back and look at the game thread only Bruns and a small few others aren't ripping Fitz a new one in the thread. My oh my has the perception of our program changed since Croom. C34 spent years telling everyone MSU could never hope to ever have the same talent as LSU or compete equally with LSU. Then he's on here last night defending that he never said LSU had less talent than MSU this year but that it was equal. This is what's wrong with our program right now. We aren't good enough to win like Bama, Auburn, Georgia this year yet we aren't happy to be winning like LSU, aTm and Florida. It took Clemson roughly sixteen straight seasons of slow improvement before they reached playoff/national championship level. We are in year 9 for Mullen. Sit back and try to enjoy the molasses climb it takes to get to where we all want to be ultimately. All the bitching and complaining doesn't make it happen any faster and if you try to cut corners you get ****ed in the ass like Ole Miss currently is not enjoying.

[msstate7]

It's probably an assistant coach. Doesn't make it any less true.

I take Steve spurrier?s back in the day as when he was at Florida. That?s 2001... you could probably count on your fingers the assistants that?s been in the sec that long

[Homedawg]

I agree, I've always had a very hard time believing some of those quotes are things actual coaches would say to a media member, no matter what the circumstances. Just not worth the embarrassment if they decided one year to out you.

Funny that no matter who said it, we've beat their ass. Becaus it didn't come from a bama guy. So there's that.

[Commercecomet24]

Funny that no matter who said it, we've beat their ass. Becaus it didn't come from a bama guy. So there's that.

Exactly.

[Commercecomet24]

Dans record in the sec against everyone not named bama is 30-28. Thats not to shabby considering what our sec record was in the decade before he arrived.

[Coach34]

My oh my has the perception of our program changed since Croom. C34 spent years telling everyone MSU could never hope to ever have the same talent as LSU or compete equally with LSU. Then he's on here last night defending that he never said LSU had less talent than MSU this year but that it was equal.

Nobody expected LSU to drop back into the 20-30 range in talent. But it happened.

[HoopsDawg]

Dans record in the sec against everyone not named bama is 30-28. Thats not to shabby considering what our sec record was in the decade before he arrived.

That's not bad, but if you take out Bama, I guess you have to take out UK. That's makes him 23-27. Still, that's not horrible.

[Dawg61]

Nobody expected LSU to drop back into the 20-30 range in talent. But it happened.

That would put MSU in the 20-30 range in talent then and every single one of us would have taken that in a heartbeat when Croom got fired. Well we have that right now and we've had that for awhile now. To be great takes a long damn time. It's frustrating how slow it takes. Only thing we can do is fix the holes we see every year and eventually the holes will be smaller and fewer. We've got a pretty good kicker that hasn't missed and our DC is doing well besides two games so we are already better than we were last year. If we have this kicker and Grantham last year we woulda been 9-4 not 6-7.

[Dawg61]

That's not bad, but if you take out Bama, I guess you have to take out UK. That's makes him 23-27. Still, that's not horrible.

UK is our 4th or 5th toughest SEC opponent this year. They don't get taken out.

[Todd4State]

I think we're doing a lot of things to move this program forward but the bad thing about college is if you made a mistake in recruiting three years ago it's going to bite you down the road and even if you fix it through recruiting and that can be seen on our commitment list- Guidry can't help us at the present. And there's no trade deadline or waiver wire to pick up someone that can help immediately. As long as Dan is addressing the issues, I'm fine with it. Which is why I haven't been nearly as critical of Gonzalez as I have of Hevesy. And I will say that if Hevesy recruits better the criticism will stop there too. I hope the come to Jesus meeting is true as well and it does look like we are recruiting o-line much better than we ever have during Dan's time here.

I think MOST of our problems on our team go back to recruiting. If we had more physical WR's on the outside there is no question we would have been able to move the ball and score more on Georgia and Auburn and would have an even better chance to beat A&M and Alabama. Not being able to move the ball hurts the defense as well because they end up on the field all night and eventually they give way from being pounded on all night and we end up with a blowout. Now we may not have won those games but if we at the very least are competitive and keep it with a 10 point margin I'm fine with that. If we're competitive like that, we're going to win some of those games from time to time. And it's going to help our program because sometimes "looking impressive in a loss" can help with recruiting and things like that.

I think MSU fans are kind of in a weird spot because if you are my age as a child you were told that we would never ever be good in football outside of 1980 and that the only way for us to win was to cheat like Tyler did and then that wouldn't work because we would have to forfeit everything anyway. For a lot of those people just winning the Egg Bowl and going to the Liberty Bowl and winning it was a dream season and I think for a lot of fans that was just simply the goal because that seemed "realistic" and "possible" and a hell of a lot better than 3-8. And I think a lot of our fans resigned themselves to that being "the goal" and making a promise to themselves to never go higher than that if we ever did get to that point. Well, Dan is essentially doing that or better. But to me it seems like we have a lot of fans that are scared to even to move forward beyond that and they come up with all of these excuses why we can't or why we shouldn't..."we might piss off Dan if we tell him to improve something and then he might leave", "we screwed up firing Allyn McKeen 70 years ago...I don't want to do that again". And then we have too many fans and internet personalities I guess that if you make a suggestion that looks even a little bit critical all of a sudden you get attacked and accused of wanting Dan fired, not remembering how bad it was, and asked well, who do you think is better than Dan...for saying that we need better wide receivers or something like you would like to see us do better in big games. It's ridiculous and it's a loser mentality. If you set a goal and you accomplish it and then you don't set a higher goal and you just remain content....you're never going to reach your full potential. That's with anything in life. OK- so we're at the bowl game and winning the Egg Bowl pretty much every year level now...why not go for being a consistent 8-10 win program now? Because you as Joe Fan made a promise to yourself that you would never expect more because you didn't believe it would ever happen in your life 30 years ago? And if we don't get to that level, then so what? At least we did everything we could to be as good as we could be rather than say "Gee I wonder what would have happened if..."

But the thing that a lot of those Joe Fan's need to understand is that the goal of the criticism ISN'T to get Dan fired. It's usually that we want something to be fixed that's very easily correctable. Like Dan upgrading special teams, improving recruiting, playing younger players more if they are better than the upper classmen. Dan has done ALL of those things. He didn't leave. I'm HAPPY that he made those corrections and applaud him for it. Heck, he basically fired his college roommate last year and isn't leaving. And we're better for it- and will improve in the future. For example- Cadaver's recruiting example Dan can say the exact same thing about hard work but he just needs to add at the end of his sells pitch that the byproduct of doing that is championships in college at MSU. That's a very simple fix and doesn't compromise what Dan wants to do in any way.

So, as far as the play calling- I think Dan's play calling in general is fine. That tends to improve with better players. Inside zone looks a lot better when Aeris is running it as opposed to Holloway. 9 routes look better when Bear or Ross are running them compared to one of our outside receivers this year. I could go on with that but you get the point. But to give ourselves a chance to win against the big teams we CAN NOT have any glaring deficiencies at an entire position group like we have this year at WR. Again, that goes back to recruiting and making sure that every position group is filled three years before we play an opponent. I think if we can get to the point where we have top 20 recruiting classes and start stacking them we can get to the 9-10 win range consistently with Dan as our coach.

And I do think that Dan being a young coach and still learning is a good point. I think after 2015 when he realized how good he had it here I think he started to kind of re-focus and redouble his efforts to make us into what he wants us to be. And I think Ole Miss getting caught cheating and Cohen becoming the AD were good things for Dan as well. I think Cohen is going to be good at giving him resources he needs and helping him make good decisions off the field to becoming an elite program.

I like a LOT of the things that I am seeing on and off the field from MSU even though there are a few issues like the WR issue- but as long as I know that is being addressed I can handle and deal with it for the rest of the year.

[Commercecomet24]

That's not bad, but if you take out Bama, I guess you have to take out UK. That's makes him 23-27. Still, that's not horrible.

I understand. Even with bama hes 30-36 and thats so much better than the preceding 10 years. We arent an embarrassment anymore.

[HoopsDawg]

UK is our 4th or 5th toughest SEC opponent this year. They don't get taken out.

When doing stats, if you take out your worst, you have to take out your best. UK has been the team that Dan has done the best against.

[Todd4State]

Until something happens to bama and I don't know what it is, there is already complacency that there is no hope to most of the West teams to win the West or an East team to win the SEC. Heck, little hope for the vast majority to win a natty due to bama. Today in church I asked a good guy, but a hardcore bama fan (live on bama line) if it was not getting boring to watch their one-sided blowout wins and were they even interested to the final four playoffs? His reply? "Haters gonna hate". They are not even happy in their situation, they want us to love them and embrace their success as they have ruined all competition in the SEC West, SEC, and even the national title playoffs. Most everyone else is an also ran before, during, and at the end of the season. We will always lose top rated Mississippi players to them in this situation. If I knew how to change this, I would be a football genius and it has dampened my overall interest in college football, even as a 40 plus year season ticket holder.

Eventually Saban will leave. They will hire someone else who may be good but won't be as good as Saban- they will fire him for not being Saban and eventually cycle out like everyone else does. That's basically what happened when Bear Bryant left. After Alabama cycled out and Jackie had us doing pretty well we beat Alabama pretty consistently between 1996-2000. My hope is that when Saban leaves we will weather it out until then while everyone else makes terrible coaching decisions and then we win the SEC in 2031.

[Todd4State]

When doing stats, if you take out your worst, you have to take out your best. UK has been the team that Dan has done the best against.

In about two months that's going to be Ole Miss.

[Commercecomet24]

When doing stats, if you take out your worst, you have to take out your best. UK has been the team that Dan has done the best against.

Hoops is right. Those are the 2 outliers. We are 0-8 against bama, 7-1 against uk. I should have made that correction.

[BrunswickDawg]

Nick Fitzgerald became only the 2nd QB in MSU history to have 25 rushing tds and 25 passing tds yesterday and not one single other poster has mentioned this besides myself. If you go back and look at the game thread only Bruns and a small few others aren't ripping Fitz a new one in the thread. My oh my has the perception of our program changed since Croom. C34 spent years telling everyone MSU could never hope to ever have the same talent as LSU or compete equally with LSU. Then he's on here last night defending that he never said LSU had less talent than MSU this year but that it was equal. This is what's wrong with our program right now. We aren't good enough to win like Bama, Auburn, Georgia this year yet we aren't happy to be winning like LSU, aTm and Florida. It took Clemson roughly sixteen straight seasons of slow improvement before they reached playoff/national championship level. We are in year 9 for Mullen. Sit back and try to enjoy the molasses climb it takes to get to where we all want to be ultimately. All the bitching and complaining doesn't make it happen any faster and if you try to cut corners you get ****ed in the ass like Ole Miss currently is not enjoying.

Careful DAWG61 - you are starting to sound like me. Lol

The biggest problem with MSU is we’ve never given what few very good coaches we have had time to build a program.
Sasse burned out. McKeen banged the wrong girl. Warmath and Royal realized what they were up against and bugged out. Tyler pissed on the NCAA. Bellard seemed to give up. Jackie was a marked man. We never had that 25 year guy who built us into something and got his name on the stadium. The way I see it, Dan may be our last hope for that ever happening because of the way the game is run these days. To me that makes it imperative that we as fans and supporters do everything we can to keep moving us forward. We don’t need to go all Yancy and his lost sheep with it - but we do need to do a better job of pulling in the same direction and pushing toward the goal of getting us to the next level.

[Commercecomet24]

Careful DAWG61 - you are starting to sound like me. Lol

The biggest problem with MSU is we’ve never given what few very good coaches we have had time to build a program.
Sasse burned out. McKeen banged the wrong girl. Warmath and Royal realized what they were up against and bugged out. Tyler pissed on the NCAA. Bellard seemed to give up. Jackie was a marked man. We never had that 25 year guy who built us into something and got his name on the stadium. The way I see it, Dan may be our last hope for that ever happening because of the way the game is run these days. To me that makes it imperative that we as fans and supporters do everything we can to keep moving us forward. We don’t need to go all Yancy and his lost sheep with it - but we do need to do a better job of pulling in the same direction and pushing toward the goal of getting us to the next level.

Bravo, Sir!

[HoopsDawg]

Careful DAWG61 - you are starting to sound like me. Lol

The biggest problem with MSU is we?ve never given what few very good coaches we have had time to build a program.
Sasse burned out. McKeen banged the wrong girl. Warmath and Royal realized what they were up against and bugged out. Tyler pissed on the NCAA. Bellard seemed to give up. Jackie was a marked man. We never had that 25 year guy who built us into something and got his name on the stadium. The way I see it, Dan may be our last hope for that ever happening because of the way the game is run these days. To me that makes it imperative that we as fans and supporters do everything we can to keep moving us forward. We don?t need to go all Yancy and his lost sheep with it - but we do need to do a better job of pulling in the same direction and pushing toward the goal of getting us to the next level.

I may have missed it, but I don't see anyone calling for Dan to be fired.

[IMissJack]

I see this in response quite a bit, and I'm fully aware that we probably won't beat them....I'm not expecting us too....I'm just expecting us to try to. And lining up trying to read option Alabama to a victory is as good a chance as kneeling it every down on offense. Let's shake it up and see what happens....if we lose by 50, oh well, we're used to it

First I would settle with being competitive in a game with them, as in losing by 10. We are not near that.

[Commercecomet24]

I think most of us agree, though we may see things a little differently. Although we have come a long way and are doing better than we ever have, we want more. We want to take that next step to become a national brand(which doesn?t always mean you win an NC, though that would be nice. It requires constant success, bowls every year, 8,9,10 win seasons to become one of those teams that everyone knows. We have taken giant steps from years of mediocrity but have more to do. I feel confident Dan is building to that and he seems to be evoloving. We are recruiting much better(especially now that the bears arent buying players out from under us), and are addressing needs. We arent there obviously but closer than we have ever been and its gonna take even more effort from all involved to get where we all want to be.

[HoopsDawg]

I think most of us agree, though we may see things a little differently. Although we have come a long way and are doing better than we ever have, we want more. We want to take that next step to become a national brand(which doesn?t always mean you win an NC, though that would be nice. It requires constant success, bowls every year, 8,9,10 win seasons to become one of those teams that everyone knows. We have taken giant steps from years of mediocrity but have more to do. I feel confident Dan is building to that and he seems to be evoloving. We are recruiting much better(especially now that the bears arent buying players out from under us), and are addressing needs. We arent there obviously but closer than we have ever been and its gonna take even more effort from all involved to get where we all want to be.

Yep, we look strong at QB for at least the next 3 years. These 2018 and 2019 signing classes are critical. Got to take advantage of the Ole Miss troubles and see what we can do. Hopefully we can hold onto Grantham for a couple of years too.

[IMissJack]

Careful DAWG61 - you are starting to sound like me. Lol

The biggest problem with MSU is we?ve never given what few very good coaches we have had time to build a program.
Sasse burned out. McKeen banged the wrong girl. Warmath and Royal realized what they were up against and bugged out. Tyler pissed on the NCAA. Bellard seemed to give up. Jackie was a marked man. We never had that 25 year guy who built us into something and got his name on the stadium. The way I see it, Dan may be our last hope for that ever happening because of the way the game is run these days. To me that makes it imperative that we as fans and supporters do everything we can to keep moving us forward. We don?t need to go all Yancy and his lost sheep with it - but we do need to do a better job of pulling in the same direction and pushing toward the goal of getting us to the next level.

Dan Mullen is the only coach in my lifetime that can get us QB's (consistently) that are actually wanted by other teams. As long as he can get above average QB's for his system, we will be in much better shape as a team than any time in my lifetime. Jackie had some really good D's, but QB held him back. I'm hopeful that we can keep Grantham get a couple of shut down corners, a couple of receivers and take off.

[BrunswickDawg]

I may have missed it, but I don't see anyone calling for Dan to be fired.

That’s not at all what I’m implying. I’m saying we need to do whatever we can to make sure that the program continues to get what it needs to grow and move forward. It seems every time in our history when it has gotten to hard to make the next step, we haven’t. A lot of times it was because we started infighting about the coach. We asked the wrong questions and got the wrong results.

[HoopsDawg]

That’s not at all what I’m implying. I’m saying we need to do whatever we can to make sure that the program continues to get what it needs to grow and move forward. It seems every time in our history when it has gotten to hard to make the next step, we haven’t. A lot of times it was because we started infighting about the coach. We asked the wrong questions and got the wrong results.

I think everyone agrees with that. Kind of the point of the whole thread was what can we do to take the next step.

[IMissJack]

That’s not at all what I’m implying. I’m saying we need to do whatever we can to make sure that the program continues to get what it needs to grow and move forward. It seems every time in our history when it has gotten to hard to make the next step, we haven’t. A lot of times it was because we started infighting about the coach. We asked the wrong questions and got the wrong results.

Agree with this, and if UM gets hammered and not the UNC treatment, it should make taking that step easier this time.

[Commercecomet24]

Yep, we look strong at QB for at least the next 3 years. These 2018 and 2019 signing classes are critical. Got to take advantage of the Ole Miss troubles and see what we can do. Hopefully we can hold onto Grantham for a couple of years too.

Agree. Have to capitalize on these next few classes and lock Grantham up too.

ETA I should have said capitalize on EVERY class.

[MarketingBully]

Good point, I agree.

And on the recruiting note, let me tell you guys a story.....I work with the Dad of a big time 4 star recruit in an upcoming class. His son is committed to an SEC school despite saying he loves MSU & our coaches. When I asked him why he wouldn't choose MSU, he said it's because every time Dan & the coaches talk to his son or his 4-5 star buddies, he talks about "building" and "being better" but never talks about "trying to win a Championship". I know that sounds silly, but he said that's why we will not be signing his son or his son's good friend that is also a 4 star. They want to win a 'ship, or at least play for a team who plans on winning one...and despite their praise of Mullen and our atmosphere, they don't think Mullen sells us as a Championship contender, but more of a constant rebuild. And the guy told me, " I know Dan's just being real, but sometimes these kids need to hear that you're confident you can coach them in to winning it all, not just "building" on a mediocre to above average program".

Just thought I'd share that for those interested. I will say this though, he has been extremely high on Mullen's recruiting. Says he and his staff have put in more work and been more effective than every team outside of the one he's committed to. So that's good news

That?s why he is a shit recruiter. Do you think Cannizzaro or Howland sell us like this? Both of those guys sell championships and MLB/NBA. Dan?s just not a good recruiter and that could be the cause of some of our problems.

[Todd4State]

That’s not at all what I’m implying. I’m saying we need to do whatever we can to make sure that the program continues to get what it needs to grow and move forward. It seems every time in our history when it has gotten to hard to make the next step, we haven’t. A lot of times it was because we started infighting about the coach. We asked the wrong questions and got the wrong results.

Shira- stepped down to become AD. We didn't fire him even though he was bad. And even named a building after him. A guy that didn't win a SEC game for something like three years in a row.
Tyler- NCAA fired him.
Bellard- Retread essentially. Fired after four straight losing seasons and losing three Egg Bowls in a row. It was time.
Felker- Had one winning season in five years which was his first year and was allowed to stay two more years after Tech and 10. And then we hired him BACK as an assistant.
Sherrill- Left after three consecutive losing seasons and NCAA issues.
Croom- Had one winning season in five years. We fired him one year removed from his best season.
Dan- Current

It seems to me recently if we ever had a problem with football coaches it was holding on to them way too long. All of our coaches going back to the 50's got at least 5 years. I think the problem is as I think you are saying we didn't support them the right way. If we gave Jackie the same facilities and money to hire assistants relative to the 1990's as what we are with Dan right now- who knows what happens? I think the issue was more from the athletic department level until 2007 than anything. If you don't have support from them, you aren't going to hire a good coach unless there is some alum that is a MSU grad that is a coaching guru. And that's going to lead to not winning which leads to lack of fan support.

[BrunswickDawg]

Shira- stepped down to become AD. We didn't fire him even though he was bad. And even named a building after him. A guy that didn't win a SEC game for something like three years in a row.
Tyler- NCAA fired him.
Bellard- Retread essentially. Fired after four straight losing seasons and losing three Egg Bowls in a row. It was time.
Felker- Had one winning season in five years which was his first year and was allowed to stay two more years after Tech and 10. And then we hired him BACK as an assistant.
Sherrill- Left after three consecutive losing seasons and NCAA issues.
Croom- Had one winning season in five years. We fired him one year removed from his best season.
Dan- Current

It seems to me recently if we ever had a problem with football coaches it was holding on to them way too long. All of our coaches going back to the 50's got at least 5 years. I think the problem is as I think you are saying we didn't support them the right way. If we gave Jackie the same facilities and money to hire assistants relative to the 1990's as what we are with Dan right now- who knows what happens? I think the issue was more from the athletic department level until 2007 than anything. If you don't have support from them, you aren't going to hire a good coach unless there is some alum that is a MSU grad that is a coaching guru. And that's going to lead to not winning which leads to lack of fan support.

Good points. I think a big difference now compared to any other point in our history is our athletic department as a whole - and specifically our AD. Cohen just seems to be a perfect fit for where we are right now. He’s a pro, he’s an accomplished coach, he understands the financial side, and he’s an MSU guy. I think he will be asking Dan the right questions and keep pushing him productively.

[Commercecomet24]

Good points. I think a big difference now compared to any other point in our history is our athletic department as a whole - and specifically our AD. Cohen just seems to be a perfect fit for where we are right now. He’s a pro, he’s an accomplished coach, he understands the financial side, and he’s an MSU guy. I think he will be asking Dan the right questions and keep pushing him productively.

Good points by you and Todd. We now have an athletic dept and AD who want to win and are serious about it.

[IMissJack]

Good points. I think a big difference now compared to any other point in our history is our athletic department as a whole - and specifically our AD. Cohen just seems to be a perfect fit for where we are right now. He’s a pro, he’s an accomplished coach, he understands the financial side, and he’s an MSU guy. I think he will be asking Dan the right questions and keep pushing him productively.

The only questions I have about Cohen long term, is whether he will be as progressive with the marketing type ideas as Byrne and Stricklin.

[Todd4State]

The only questions I have about Cohen long term, is whether he will be as progressive with the marketing type ideas as Byrne and Stricklin.

I think marketing is important. But winning is the best form of marketing a team could have. Stricklin was great at it and I think he's a big reason why we have the cowbell use and tradition- I saw some BYU fans in front of me with their cowbells and enjoying the tradition of it, and I think that's because of Stricklin's work on that front. At the same time I think the AD we have now is better for us as far as where we are as an athletic department in terms of moving the program forward in terms of winning. I don't think Scott could talk to Dan on the same level as Cohen can because of Cohen's coaching background. And I think it goes both ways because I think Dan can go to Cohen with something and Cohen can understand why he wants something a little more than maybe Scott could.

It seems like things have changed a lot with Dan ever since Cohen became AD in a good way. It's like it gave him a shot in the arm.

[ShotgunDawg]

Good point, I agree.

And on the recruiting note, let me tell you guys a story.....I work with the Dad of a big time 4 star recruit in an upcoming class. His son is committed to an SEC school despite saying he loves MSU & our coaches. When I asked him why he wouldn't choose MSU, he said it's because every time Dan & the coaches talk to his son or his 4-5 star buddies, he talks about "building" and "being better" but never talks about "trying to win a Championship". I know that sounds silly, but he said that's why we will not be signing his son or his son's good friend that is also a 4 star. They want to win a 'ship, or at least play for a team who plans on winning one...and despite their praise of Mullen and our atmosphere, they don't think Mullen sells us as a Championship contender, but more of a constant rebuild. And the guy told me, " I know Dan's just being real, but sometimes these kids need to hear that you're confident you can coach them in to winning it all, not just "building" on a mediocre to above average program".

Just thought I'd share that for those interested. I will say this though, he has been extremely high on Mullen's recruiting. Says he and his staff have put in more work and been more effective than every team outside of the one he's committed to. So that's good news

Look, I trust what you saying is true, but I personally think your friend is being a little ridiculous.

Anyone saying they are going to win championship right now is just lying. Only one team is winning the SEC title for the foreseeable future

[ShotgunDawg]

This is 100% it alot of times. We sell the "lunchpail mentality" to recruits. That doesnt fly with WR talent that are typical divas and crave attention.

Agree with you, but Cadaver's story sounds shallow to me.

Surely no one is making one of the most important decisions of their life due to that. I mean, I'd have serious questions about the parents if so. I'm sure they are good folks & all but....

[Cooterpoot]

Some folks are letting the Saban effect get them.

[CadaverDawg]

Look, I trust what you saying is true, but I personally think your friend is being a little ridiculous.

Anyone saying they are going to win championship right now is just lying. Only one team is winning the SEC title for the foreseeable future

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you or I think....they're the one being recruited, and this kid's dad is letting him make his own decision. The kid says he loves MSU, but wants to compete for a Championship. The school he is committed to isn't any closer to winning one today than we are, but they have made him believe he can. Which is why he's willing to go there and be a backup for a few years, when he could start as a freshman for us. It is what it is. Believe what you want, but if you think a 17 year old thinks the same as a couple of older message board fans, that's on you.

Bottom line, the guy actually gave lots of props to Mullen and the position coach recruiting him....but ultimately said his son doesn't feel he can compete for a championship at MSU while he feels he can at the other school. And he said he doesn't think Mullen thinks he can either, because he's never even said it. Shallow or not, that's the truth....and trust me, I've thrown my greatest sales pitches possible at his Dad, ha.

[MarketingBully]

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you or I think....they're the one being recruited, and this kid's dad is letting him make his own decision. The kid says he loves MSU, but wants to compete for a Championship. The school he is committed to isn't any closer to winning one today than we are, but they have made him believe he can. Which is why he's willing to go there and be a backup for a few years, when he could start as a freshman for us. It is what it is. Believe what you want, but if you think a 17 year old thinks the same as a couple of older message board fans, that's on you.

Bottom line, the guy actually gave lots of props to Mullen and the position coach recruiting him....but ultimately said his son doesn't feel he can compete for a championship at MSU while he feels he can at the other school. And he said he doesn't think Mullen thinks he can either, because he's never even said it. Shallow or not, that's the truth....and trust me, I've thrown my greatest sales pitches possible at his Dad, ha.

You’re absolutely right. As much as Ole Miss cheated to get recruits, Hugh Freeze was a much more charismatic guy than Mullen is. Do you think Freeze recruited with the what you see is what you get mentality? No. He gave them the same bullshit everyone else does. We are also talking about a man who almost lost Tim Tebow to Mike Shula because he made such a bad first impression with his dad and Tim initially. Meyer had to clean up Mullen’s mess. Mullen is however a great football coach and a great offensive mind but he needs to surround himself with excellent recruiters to make up for his difficiencies. He needs to get rid of Hev and bring in a great recruiter in his stead. Surround himself with coaches who recruit at an extremely high level. Otherwise some of those advantages everyone thinks we should have with Ole Miss being on probation may end up going to LSU and Alabama.

[MarketingBully]

Some folks are letting the Saban effect get them.

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

[Indndawg]

I'm somewhat disappointed in myself for not being more excited about what could be an 8-4 type season in the SEC. I always told myself during the Croom years that if we could ever become a 6-7 win team consistently I'd never complain again. So let me preface the rest of my post by saying, I'm content with 7-9 win seasons as all MSU fans SHOULD be....but that doesn't mean I dont want us to always strive to be better and take another step.

So with that said, I feel like we've reached a point where we're going to beat the teams we are more talented than, and lose pretty much every game against a team with better talent or a defense that can stop our run. Again, that's still good enough to win 7-8 games most years....but what are we doing to try and improve on that so that complacency doesn't set in?

My first thought is, we're recruiting playmakers at WR. I think that is the absolute right call, bc the only way a team with less overall talent pulls the upset, is to have playmakers that can win you games via 50/50 balls and pure skill. I'm disappointed that our staff allowed us to become so bad at WR considering our QB talent the last 4-5 years...that was just a failure at recruiting. BUT, we are addressing it this year and we desperately need to make sure Heath, Guidry, & hopefully Jason sign the dotted line.



The second part of the next step imo, must come via a philosophy change by our head coach. We have been trying to run our Kentucky gameplan vs the Bama's (& this year AU & UGA's) of the world for 8 years and it hasn't worked. Why? Bc our entire passing success is determined on the ability to run. When we can't run, we can't pass. This is only going to become a bigger and bigger problem until we get the better WR's on campus, bc teams are just going to go all in on the run game.

So my question is, what are we (what is Dan) doing to try to adjust & give us a better shot at competing with a Bama this year for instance? Obviously, we aren't likely to win that game. But what is/has Dan been doing to try to give us a puncher's chance? That's where I'm frustrated. There are always going to be 3-4 teams minimum in this league that can stop our run, so if we are truly trying to compete for Championship's, how are we preparing ourselves to beat those 3-4 teams each year? Are we doing anything? Are we trying to revamp our passing playbook? Or are we just hoping that a better raw passer at QB + a few D1 caliber receivers, will equal a passing game capable of getting us to a new level? Because I don't think it's ONLY a talent issue. I feel like Dan lacks the confidence in coaching a passing game, so he gets ultra conservative and abandons all creativity against these A teams we're talking about. That isn't a talent thing, and I hope he's working on that. During the offseason there was an article where other coaches in the SEC anonymously critiqued their SEC counterparts....one coach said Dan was a good coach, but he wasn't hard to prepare for because you know what he's going to run, you just have to execute. That is concerning to me, and shows a lack of creativity and adjustments.

We are never going to recruit well enough to line up and out-talent the Bama's or this year's UGA's & even AU's of the world.....so are we just going to keep conceding those games, or at some point are we going to try something they aren't expecting. I know many of you have sat at home like me and been able to predict several play calls in a row in big games...if we can, Smart can & Saban can, and many others can.

So with everything I've said above being the case....do you ever see Dan becoming more creative or becoming less tight in those big games? Or do you think we just need to accept that most years with Dan we have a great shot at 7-9 wins, which is awesome, but that we won't even be competitive with the top 2-3 teams in the SEC? And if so, how does that make you feel? I feel like I'm there, and while I don't want to get rid of Mullen and lose the 7-9 wins per year, I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm not a little disappointed thinking that despite how great Mullen has done, we probably don't have a realistic shot at winning the West with Dan, but can count on every year being a great year in "MSU standards".

Ultimately, I'm just curious if anybody else is feeling the same way, and what you think about it? Am I missing some adjustments? Because I could be. Again, this thread isn't bashing Mullen, he's our best ever and I don't want to lose him. I'm just thinking maybe we reached that ceiling and it's time to just adjust my expectations and just enjoy our best years ever and the talent we're putting on the field compared to years' past. It's just a weird feeling, bc I'm very grateful as a long time Dawg that knows how bad it can be...makes me feel guilty to say I wish we could make a few adjustments that could give us a little more, because I definitely think we have one of the best coaches in the country. I'm just wondering if he'll ever have the talent needed for us to compete for the West with his system. But I'll gladly take this over years past if not. Maybe these last 8 years are the MSU mountain top.

Thoughts? Sorry for long post.

Mobile QB that CAN pass
Big WR that can actually catch
Decent OL

[Mimi's Babies]

Very good post Cadaver. It is definitely a conundrum feeing like we have achieved a level we all dreamed about and yet feeling that we have plateaued.

As an eternal optimist and sunshine pumper - I?ll try to give you some hope.

1) Dan is still a young coach. He has made many adjustments in his time here and seems willing to learn and grow (regardless of the Hev/Country Club criticism).
2) some of the needed offensive adjustments are already being addressed. Think about this - Key is our first big time QB recruit. Assuming he can attack learning the system, he has the potential to shatter every record we have. By adding big time QB?s - you are seeing better receivers committing - they know they will get the damn ball. No offense to Dak or Fitz - but neither of them were going to draw big time WR to come with them as recruits. Guys like Key, Maden, etc will.
3) We are using our resources wisely. We have money, and Cohen knows we need to spend on assistants to make us better. We saw it on D last year. I think we will see it more this off season.
4) To make the next big step, I really think we need Dan to bring in or promote someone to OC and let them take the reigns. Dan can focus on big picture and QBs.

We really aren?t that far off. But, the other big thing is someone needs to make Saban hang it up. He is strangling the SEC bit by bit.

Hev is not OC material. Please dear Jesus..Just no.

[Mimi's Babies]

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

Yes, when saben disrupted the entire school and landed his helicopter next to the school.... Yes, saban did everything he could to get the kid. Have you ever thought about what did OM attempt to do at that school?

[Mimi's Babies]

Yes, when saben disrupted the entire school and landed his helicopter next to the school.... Yes, saban did everything he could to get the kid. Have you ever thought about what did OM attempt to do at that school?

As late as last fall..

[Mimi's Babies]

Good points by you and Todd. We now have an athletic dept and AD who want to win and are serious about it.

If L.T. was still at MSU we would still be in a huge hole. He should have been gone 15 years before he left. With the current Athletic department I see us going forward. I sure don't believe that there will be any money changing hands here.

[Dawg61]

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

We have like 24 guys committed right now and Ole Miss has like 1. You need to take a break from MSU football for a couple days dude.

[BrunswickDawg]

Hev is not OC material. Please dear Jesus..Just no.
Never said Hev or Gonzo for that matter. I think Brian Johnson could come back and do it. Possibly Elliot in. Couple of years. It needs to be someone who understands Dan and Dan trusts.

[msbulldog]

While I?m happy winning 7-9 every year, I?m not content doing so if that makes any sense. Anyone that?s been a state fan for more then ten years will never take a consistent 7-9 win seasons for granted. What?s been infuriating, though, is that these past few seasons we?ve always just been one or two pieces away from really being elite. Here lately it?s been WR, kicker, and OL. Looks like we?ve addressed kicker and addressing WR and I read on another board that supposedly Hev had a come to Jesus meeting. I really hope that?s true. As for Mullen coaching scared in big games...maybe Megan needs to give him a nice hummer before they take the field to loosen him up.

A good ole hummer always works for me, I don't know if I do my job any better, but I damn sure feel better.

[basedog]

You’re absolutely right. As much as Ole Miss cheated to get recruits, Hugh Freeze was a much more charismatic guy than Mullen is. Do you think Freeze recruited with the what you see is what you get mentality? No. He gave them the same bullshit everyone else does. We are also talking about a man who almost lost Tim Tebow to Mike Shula because he made such a bad first impression with his dad and Tim initially. Meyer had to clean up Mullen’s mess. Mullen is however a great football coach and a great offensive mind but he needs to surround himself with excellent recruiters to make up for his difficiencies. He needs to get rid of Hev and bring in a great recruiter in his stead. Surround himself with coaches who recruit at an extremely high level. Otherwise some of those advantages everyone thinks we should have with Ole Miss being on probation may end up going to LSU and Alabama.

"Hugh Freeze was a much more charismatic guy than Mullen is".

Maybe escorts are not as phony as ole Hugh! You say "charismatic" I say "cheater"!

[BrunswickDawg]

You’re absolutely right. As much as Ole Miss cheated to get recruits, Hugh Freeze was a much more charismatic guy than Mullen is. Do you think Freeze recruited with the what you see is what you get mentality? No. He gave them the same bullshit everyone else does. We are also talking about a man who almost lost Tim Tebow to Mike Shula because he made such a bad first impression with his dad and Tim initially. Meyer had to clean up Mullen’s mess. Mullen is however a great football coach and a great offensive mind but he needs to surround himself with excellent recruiters to make up for his difficiencies. He needs to get rid of Hev and bring in a great recruiter in his stead. Surround himself with coaches who recruit at an extremely high level. Otherwise some of those advantages everyone thinks we should have with Ole Miss being on probation may end up going to LSU and Alabama.

Dan has become a very charismatic guy. I don't think he was as an assistant coach - but if I led the life of a college assistant coach I'd probably be a grumpy ass too. Watch interviews with Dan. He's got a great sense of humor and is very engaging. And he does things that instills loyalty in people. Back in August when it was raining like crazy every day, the FMB ruined their practice field and had to move band camp to Starkville High. When Dan came to talk to the band - he spent considerable time talking to every student that came up to get a selfie finding out where they were from etc. (even asked my daughter if she went to BHS or Glynn Academy - she was floored that he knew our 2 local high schools). Then he asked why they were at SHS for practice. When he found out, he re-arranged fall camp practice so the Band could use one of the turf fields. He then came out on his office balcony almost every practice to watch some. Band kids aren't used to that type of support from football. But, that's the type guy you get with Dan.

Now if you think Hugh is charismatic, I would never go buy a car with you - because I bet the salesman convinces you need the under carriage protection spray, the additional roadside assistance program, and a special deluxe package of pinstriping for your used Chevy Silverado.

[CadaverDawg]

Yeah the guy's dad I'm talking about said he nor his son realized Dan was such a cool, fun, guy until they started spending time around him and on the phone with him. They were at the LSU game and said when they got there they expected LSU to win, but after they talked to Dan pregame and got to participate in group meetings and hear Dans pregame speech, they left the locker room thinking we had this. Said Mullen was cool and confident and motivational.

He told me Mullen & Co was putting in more recruiting effort than pretty much everyone else except the committed school at this point, and that we are the clear #2 despite offers from the entire country pretty much. So I came away feeling much better about our recruiting as a whole despite us likely not getting his son. He said he's never seen so many good players interested in MSU, and they were floored by our campus, stadium and atmosphere vs LSU. We're definitely improving on the recruiting trail, and it shows.

[Todd4State]

Never said Hev or Gonzo for that matter. I think Brian Johnson could come back and do it. Possibly Elliot in. Couple of years. It needs to be someone who understands Dan and Dan trusts.

That would be the best case scenario for us. Or maybe Will Friend from Colorado State to add some pro style looks to our offense.

[Liverpooldawg]

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

One more time, jeez.......There are at least as many Alabama fans in the Golden Triangle as MSU fans. Outside of Starkville there are more. Bama starts on at the worst an equal footing with us in recruiting kids in the Triangle. It’s never a slam dunk for us there when Bama is involved.

[Cooterpoot]

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

Books' still out on Cannizaro and Howland. Especially Howland. He's done nothing here. I do believe Canz will, but let's see how many draft guys he's able to keep, since that was a big part of folks thinking when we hired him. There's no denying the failures in recruiting. But to believe Mullen can't do more is a reflection of MSU as much as anything. Look at the class we've got coming in. Probably going to be close to a top 15 class. Still going to be a low rated class in the conference. No MS school is going to do better than that without cheating right now. Just the way it is. Canz has tradition on his side. He's also going to have the best facilities in America. Dan doesn't.

[Maroonthirteen]

One more time, jeez.......There are at least as many Alabama fans in the Golden Triangle as MSU fans. Outside of Starkville there are more. Bama starts on at the worst an equal footing with us in recruiting kids in the Triangle. It?s never a slam dunk for us there when Bama is involved.

Exactly Liverpool! Many of Columbus residents have Alabama relatives and are Tide fans because of that or just bandwagon fans. But regardless wcbi and the Dispatch cover Alabama football for this reason. The Columbus media (& WTVA) is all West Point and Starkville have (locally) and that has an influence.

With that said though, I have pondered if Alabama winning NCs is bad or good for us? They always signed pretty much who they wanted out of MS. However they are recruiting nationally now and a lot of MS kids in the past they would have signed...they now pass on for a kid out of the north or west or east coast.

Sure it would be better if they were perennial door mats but that isn't happening either in our lifetime. Which leads back to the OP. Yeah, it is frustrating to know you have very little chance to win a game on the schedule but we are experiencing unprecedented success as well. I look at Bamas success and our inability to keep up despite recruiting better than ever, more as a flaw with college football in general more so than specifically a Dan Mullen or MSU problem.