If You Were A Top QB Prospect, Would You Consider Bama?

[ShotgunDawg]

While watching Bama vs Texas A&M the other night, it kept dawning on me Bama's entire offensive philosophy & overall talent level, goes against what allows QBs to develop for the NFL.

I personally think Jalen Hurts is talented player that is currently in a terrible situation for his overall development towards becoming an NFL QB & likely will never start a game in the NFL due to this lack of development. I will also expand these thoughts to Tongivljalsdasdfasdf because I don't like the way the ball comes out of his hand.

The NFL is an 8-8 league in which QBs are tasked with raising the overall level of their teams play against other teams who have a similar talent as their own. How would any Alabama QB know how to do this?
How could any Bama QB, who plays in an offense & for a coach that believes that, since his talent level is so far superior to anyone else's, the QBs job is to look for his first read &, if that isn't there, run.

It's not that Bama has a bad QB coach, it's that their path of least resistance to winning games, is detrimental to QB development. I can't blame Bama coaches for that, as their job is to win Nattys, not to develop NFL QBs, but the point remains, if you were a top QB recruit with the goal of being an NFL starter, why would you go there?

Sure, you'll get a hot girlfriend, plenty of publicity, SEC Championships, & probably a Natty, but is that the goal? or is the goal to develop into an NFL QB?

I have read some articles where a number of NFL scouts say that one of the most important parts of QB development at the college level is responsibility. How much responsibility did that player have in running his offense, making reads, putting the team on his back. This is where they say they missed on Dak. They didn't realize how much responsibility he had at MSU.

If you look at most of the top NFL QBs, they were at mid-tier schools & raised the level of that school's play. They had decent talent around them but were tasked with finding a way for their decent talent to elevate & beat superior teams.

Dak - MSU
Rivers - NC State
Wilson - NC State/ Wisky
Eli - Ole Miss
Rodgers - Cal
Watson - Clemson (Watson elevated Clemson. They weren't a top recruiter)
Alex Smith - Utah
Newton - Aubur. That Auburn team had average talent.
Flacco - Delaware
Goff - Cal
Trubisky - UNC
Hoyer - Michigan State
Cousins - Michigan State
Dalton - TCU
Bortles - UCF
Brissett - NC State
Taylor - VT
Cutler - Vandy
Brees - Purdue
Roethliberger - Miami of Ohio
Ryan - BC
Carr - Fresno State

You also have some blue bloods, but most of the blue blood QBs were overwhelming talents - Stafford, Brady, Palmer, etc.

[Bully13]

what's bammer's / Saban's record on getting QB's into the NFL? (as how it pertains the point you are making)

[parabrave]

You really have to consider the Coaches more than the school. Heck look at Bama did back in the 60's with QB.s. If my kid was a qb stud I would send him to Mark Ritch. Hey he has 2 in the NFL right now.

[BrunswickDawg]

I have read some articles where a number of NFL scouts say that one of the most important parts of QB development at the college level is responsibility. How much responsibility did that player have in running his offense, making reads, putting the team on his back. This is where they say they missed on Dak. They didn't realize how much responsibility he had at MSU.

That's a blessing and a curse for us I think. Dan really wants to prepare our QBs for the league, and has them doing very advance stuff with progressions and reads. But, with our average talent (meaning few future NFL guys on Offense), the rest of our offense isn't up to the task against teams that have NFL talent on D. It leads to missing open guys, or forcing balls. Our QBs are going with what "should" be happening by Dan's "book" instead of what is actually happening on the field. You saw it in spots with Dak, and see it a lot with Fitz. It's why when we play inferior teams our offense is almost unstoppable but elite teams shut us down. You give Dak that 8-8 talent, and he makes it better (just like he did our 6-6 talent). Fitz may be able to do that too. He is still not far behind where Dak was as a RSJr. - especially when you consider his lack of QB experience in HS.

[smootness]

Yes

[Hasu Dackds]

You have this backwards. Alabama's offense is actually tailor made for what actually works, percentage wise, in the NFL. The pro-style offensive system will always be the method of choice up there, and with that, you have to 1 - have the arm to make the throws, and 2 - possess great decision making. Everything else is simply gravy.

Alabama's problem has been quarterback evaluation. I don't think Hurts is an NFL quarterback, but he's a good college quarterback, in a great situation. Having talent around you is never a bad thing. I see several things in your post above that are just wrong. Clemson wasn't a top recruiter? WTF? Auburn had average talent around Cam? WTF? Did you see their offensive line?

Isn't McCarron in the NFL?

[smootness]

That's a blessing and a curse for us I think. Dan really wants to prepare our QBs for the league, and has them doing very advance stuff with progressions and reads. But, with our average talent (meaning few future NFL guys on Offense), the rest of our offense isn't up to the task against teams that have NFL talent on D. It leads to missing open guys, or forcing balls. Our QBs are going with what "should" be happening by Dan's "book" instead of what is actually happening on the field. You saw it in spots with Dak, and see it a lot with Fitz. It's why when we play inferior teams our offense is almost unstoppable but elite teams shut us down. You give Dak that 8-8 talent, and he makes it better (just like he did our 6-6 talent). Fitz may be able to do that too. He is still not far behind where Dak was as a RSJr. - especially when you consider his lack of QB experience in HS.

The first half of your post doesn't seem to jibe with the second half. If Mullen is giving QBs freedom to make decisions based on reads and progressions, then how are they not responding to what is actually happening on the field?

I think the way Mullen handles QBs means that it often takes longer to get to our ceiling but gives us a higher ceiling once we get there. The thing that needs to change is the opening up of the offense, especially the downfield passing game, against the best teams on the schedule. I do think he sometimes hammers in the check-down a little too much, but overall I think it's a good thing for the offense.

[ShotgunDawg]

You have this backwards. Alabama's offense is actually tailor made for what actually works, percentage wise, in the NFL. The pro-style offensive system will always be the method of choice up there, and with that, you have to 1 - have the arm to make the throws, and 2 - possess great decision making. Everything else is simply gravy.

Alabama's problem has been quarterback evaluation. I don't think Hurts is an NFL quarterback, but he's a good college quarterback, in a great situation. Having talent around you is never a bad thing. I see several things in your post above that are just wrong. Clemson wasn't a top recruiter? WTF? Auburn had average talent around Cam? WTF? Did you see their offensive line?

Isn't McCarron in the NFL?

I completely disagree with every thing you just said here. Developing to be an NFL QB has very little to do with your college system IMO (outside of the triple option) & much more to do with responsibility. Having more talent than everyone you play is absolutely a bad thing when learning to elevate your team & overcome your weaknesses is a significant part of development.

[ShotgunDawg]

what's bammer's / Saban's record on getting QB's into the NFL? (as how it pertains the point you are making)

Up until AJ McCarron started a game for the Bengals a few years ago, Alabama had not had a QB start an NFL for almost 30 years.

[Hasu Dackds]

Having more talent than everyone you play is absolutely a bad thing when learning to elevate your team & overcome your weaknesses is a significant part of development.
I could see how a little complacency could creep in here for the average kid, yes. Adversity is a good thing for most people.

Previously I was talking more just scheme and success rate in general, which sets you up to be a pretty high draft pick. Yeah, intangibles are a big deal, but let's face it, the NFL is still looking at measurables and prototypes. If you have success in an Alabama type offense it's sort of hard for the NFL not to draft you.

Hard work is a completely different subject altogether.

[ShotgunDawg]

I could see how a little complacency could creep in here for the average kid, yes. Adversity is a good thing for most people.

Previously I was talking more just scheme and success rate in general, which sets you up to be a pretty high draft pick. Yeah, intangibles are a big deal, but let's face it, the NFL is still looking at measurables and prototypes. If you have success in an Alabama type offense it's sort of hard for the NFL not to draft you.

Hard work is a completely different subject altogether.

Well, actually having to read a defense because everyone isn't wide ass open & learning to pick up 3rd & 10s is also a good thing.

The Bama QB has no stress in the game. They either throw it to the first read, run, or throw it in the 3rd row.

[MSUDAWGFAN]

Up until AJ McCarron started a game for the Bengals a few years ago, Alabama had not had a QB start an NFL for almost 30 years.

Pretty sure that he only started a game because the full time starter had been injured. Bama/Saban doesn't put out NFL QB like they do every other position, but the QB position is one that you actually have to develop. If I was a good QB with NFL aspirations, no way I'd go to Bama. There has been nobody else on planet Earth to make more regular citizens out of can't miss NFL QB prospects than Nick Saban.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

Yes I would. Get to have great OL protecting me, all the skilled position players around me making me look way better than I really am AND have a chance to win NC every year.....Yea, I'll take it....(says every Alabama QB the last 15 years)

[BrunswickDawg]

The first half of your post doesn't seem to jibe with the second half. If Mullen is giving QBs freedom to make decisions based on reads and progressions, then how are they not responding to what is actually happening on the field?

I think the way Mullen handles QBs means that it often takes longer to get to our ceiling but gives us a higher ceiling once we get there. The thing that needs to change is the opening up of the offense, especially the downfield passing game, against the best teams on the schedule. I do think he sometimes hammers in the check-down a little too much, but overall I think it's a good thing for the offense.

I mean our QBs are trained to make the reads and progressions but the talent around them can?t get to their spots or are defended too tightly for it to work, and the play fails.

You are right on opening up - we just can?t seem to figure out how to do it against elite Ds.

[parabrave]

Yes I would. Get to have great OL protecting me, all the skilled position players around me making me look way better than I really am AND have a chance to win NC every year.....Yea, I'll take it....(says every Alabama QB the last 15 years)

Same thing with their Running Backs.

[TUSK]

Yeppers. But I’m a homer.

[Maroonthirteen]

Uh, Yes. You would play on National TV every weekend and probably college football's biggest stage... the NC game.

Btw, they landed a QB from Hawaii.


https://www.seccountry.com/alabama/breaking-hawaiian-four-star-qb-explains-why-he-committed-to-alabama

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Yes I'd send my son there no doubt

[Saltydog]

material, imo.

[smootness]

I would think any prospect from anywhere playing any position is going to at least consider the best program in the country, playing for the best coach in the country, who has won 6 of the last 8 SEC titles and 4 of the last 8 national titles. It is a question that answers itself.

Yes, you can make the NFL at QB from just about anywhere. But all the OP says to me is that it is harder than ever to evaluate QBs and determine which will ultimately have what is needed to succeed in the NFL. If you can succeed at QB from anywhere, that certainly includes Alabama. And you will win more there than anywhere else.

[BB30]

While watching Bama vs Texas A&M the other night, it kept dawning on me Bama's entire offensive philosophy & overall talent level, goes against what allows QBs to develop for the NFL.

I personally think Jalen Hurts is talented player that is currently in a terrible situation for his overall development towards becoming an NFL QB & likely will never start a game in the NFL due to this lack of development. I will also expand these thoughts to Tongivljalsdasdfasdf because I don't like the way the ball comes out of his hand.

The NFL is an 8-8 league in which QBs are tasked with raising the overall level of their teams play against other teams who have a similar talent as their own. How would any Alabama QB know how to do this?
How could any Bama QB, who plays in an offense & for a coach that believes that, since his talent level is so far superior to anyone else's, the QBs job is to look for his first read &, if that isn't there, run.

It's not that Bama has a bad QB coach, it's that their path of least resistance to winning games, is detrimental to QB development. I can't blame Bama coaches for that, as their job is to win Nattys, not to develop NFL QBs, but the point remains, if you were a top QB recruit with the goal of being an NFL starter, why would you go there?

Sure, you'll get a hot girlfriend, plenty of publicity, SEC Championships, & probably a Natty, but is that the goal? or is the goal to develop into an NFL QB?

I have read some articles where a number of NFL scouts say that one of the most important parts of QB development at the college level is responsibility. How much responsibility did that player have in running his offense, making reads, putting the team on his back. This is where they say they missed on Dak. They didn't realize how much responsibility he had at MSU.

If you look at most of the top NFL QBs, they were at mid-tier schools & raised the level of that school's play. They had decent talent around them but were tasked with finding a way for their decent talent to elevate & beat superior teams.

Dak - MSU
Rivers - NC State
Wilson - NC State/ Wisky
Eli - Ole Miss
Rodgers - Cal
Watson - Clemson (Watson elevated Clemson. They weren't a top recruiter)
Alex Smith - Utah
Newton - Aubur. That Auburn team had average talent.
Flacco - Delaware
Goff - Cal
Trubisky - UNC
Hoyer - Michigan State
Cousins - Michigan State
Dalton - TCU
Bortles - UCF
Brissett - NC State
Taylor - VT
Cutler - Vandy
Brees - Purdue
Roethliberger - Miami of Ohio
Ryan - BC
Carr - Fresno State

You also have some blue bloods, but most of the blue blood QBs were overwhelming talents - Stafford, Brady, Palmer, etc.



I think part of the reason you see so many QBs from less elite schools is simply due to the fact that there is so much development that happens from the time a kid is a Sr in Highschool to a Jr/Sr in college. QB is one of the hardest positions to evaluate so your highly ranked kids going to USC, Ohio State, Bama, Etc. aren't necessarily going to be the cream of the crop in 3-4 years when other kids grow and develop.

Honestly, the biggest difference in 5* IMO is they are ready to play immediately most of the time. That also means they could be closer to their ceiling than the 2-3* QB from It, Mississippi. The odds of being an NFL QB are already extremely extremely unlikely no matter who you play for and I think you could take the majority of the guys you listed and put them on another college team and they have a better than 75% chance of still ending up in the NFL thats including Alabama.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

material, imo.

If Hurts was on any other team he would be average at best.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

If Hurts was on any other team he would be average at best.

If Mullen had Hurts he'd look better than Fitz.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

If Mullen had Hurts he'd look better than Fitz.

throwing...definitely.
Running... not a chance.

IMO of course but arguing hypotheticals is pointless I guess.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

throwing...definitely.
Running... not a chance.

IMO of course but arguing hypotheticals is pointless I guess.

True but I think Hurts could be a 1000yd rusher here. He's faster than Fitz.

[AROB44]

I think part of the reason you see so many QBs from less elite schools is simply due to the fact that there is so much development that happens from the time a kid is a Sr in Highschool to a Jr/Sr in college. QB is one of the hardest positions to evaluate so your highly ranked kids going to USC, Ohio State, Bama, Etc. aren't necessarily going to be the cream of the crop in 3-4 years when other kids grow and develop.

Honestly, the biggest difference in 5* IMO is they are ready to play immediately most of the time. That also means they could be closer to their ceiling than the 2-3* QB from It, Mississippi. The odds of being an NFL QB are already extremely extremely unlikely no matter who you play for and I think you could take the majority of the guys you listed and put them on another college team and they have a better than 75% chance of still ending up in the NFL thats including Alabama.

I agree with you on this. But, I think it is true for every position, not just QB.

[ShotgunDawg]

If Mullen had Hurts he'd look better than Fitz.

Agree. This is my point.

[Jack Lambert]

I wouldn't go to Bama no matter what.

[sonofozarka]

You have this backwards. Alabama's offense is actually tailor made for what actually works, percentage wise, in the NFL. The pro-style offensive system will always be the method of choice up there, and with that, you have to 1 - have the arm to make the throws, and 2 - possess great decision making. Everything else is simply gravy.

Alabama's problem has been quarterback evaluation. I don't think Hurts is an NFL quarterback, but he's a good college quarterback, in a great situation. Having talent around you is never a bad thing. I see several things in your post above that are just wrong. Clemson wasn't a top recruiter? WTF? Auburn had average talent around Cam? WTF? Did you see their offensive line?

Isn't McCarron in the NFL?
I agree with this, playing under a former pro coach (Daboll) with a multiple, pro style approach that can teach you to have full field reads and have play calls that use verbiage and aren't just pictures of a cartoon character are still going to be good ways to impress NFL scouts.

That's the reason why Jimbo Fisher gets every QB he touches drafted, because he runs a multiple, pro style approach where the QB makes a lot of decisions instead of the "check with me" audible approach where the QB looks to the sideline to get the check and then just has 1 defender to read and 1 to 2 options.

The NFL is gravitating more toward a college offense though (Chiefs have a lot of RPO concepts), but you're always going to have the stubborn NFL guys that think their way is the only way.

I just think, like this poster said, that Bama has had bad evals. Hurts and Sims aren't NFL material, neither was Jake Coker. Greg McElroy had a cup of coffee in the NFL but wasn't physically talented enough. Blake Barnett, David Cornwell, and Cooper Bateman were highly rated by recruiting services, but were all obviously overrated since none of the 3 are starting at the schools they've now transferred to.
McCarron is a borderline NFL starter and showed you what an NFL QB can do at Bama.

I think with Hurts they wanted to go more RPO and use their QB as a runner since they had been having such a hard time defending it. Problem is he's just not near the natural passer that dual threats like Cam, Deshaun Watson, and Dak are. Hurts is pretty below average as a natural passer, although I think Taguilova will be good

[TUSK]

True but I think Hurts could be a 1000yd rusher here. He's faster than Fitz.

Yup, Hurts is faster, stronger, more mobile and currently is throwing better...

he was just shy of 1000 yards rushing as a Frosh...

[Jack Lambert]

Yup, Hurts is faster, stronger, more mobile and currently is throwing better...

he was just shy of 1000 yards rushing as a Frosh...

The question I have is why with all those 4 star lineman is he having to run so much?

[TUSK]

The question I have is why with all those 4 star lineman is he having to run so much?

He still tucks & runs prematurely and I think he relies on his legs a bit too much, at times...

Also, the Pass Pro is not nearly where it needs to be... Run Blocking looks pretty good, though...

[Gutter Cobreh]

He still tucks & runs prematurely and I think he relies on his legs a bit too much, at times...

Also, the Pass Pro is not nearly where it needs to be... Run Blocking looks pretty good, though...

He's better without Kiffen this year. I realize he's matured over the past year, but he seems to fit with Daboll better.

I like Tua better than Hurts. I think he throws a better ball.

This whole thread is pointless anyway, since Shotgun posted an opinion with his mind already made up. Anyone that wouldn't want to play or send their kid to play at Bama under Saban is retarded. You want to play in big games and there is no other place to almost guarantee that than at Bama.

[TUSK]

He's better without Kiffen this year. I realize he's matured over the past year, but he seems to fit with Daboll better.

I like Tua better than Hurts. I think he throws a better ball.

This whole thread is pointless anyway, since Shotgun posted an opinion with his mind already made up. Anyone that wouldn't want to play or send their kid to play at Bama under Saban is retarded. You want to play in big games and there is no other place to almost guarantee that than at Bama.

tUA! tUA! tUA!

[Todd4State]

I think I could go either way with this. I guess it depends on how good I was too. If I was a true five star recruit I would probably be developed either place and if worse came to worse and I wasn't satisfied with my QB coaching at Bama I could also get a private instructor.

MSU is kind of a sleeper program for a QB in terms of putting up numbers and wins IMO. What I'm saying is we're about to get a lot better at WR for the next few years and possibly o-line as well. I kind of feel bad for Nick having to operate with Holloway up the middle last year and then the smurf WR's this year plus Hevesy's o-line in big games is a health risk.

If I'm a true four star guy it would probably make more sense to go to MSU unless I was just a huge Bama fan. All things being equal Dan would be better.

If I'm a three star guy MSU would probably be the only choice I would have- but Dan has raised our profile enough that it looks like 4 star QB's are now our baseline so I would probably have to go somewhere else other than MSU or Bama because I probably wouldn't have an offer from either one.

[MSUDAWGFAN]

Anyone that wouldn't want to play or send their kid to play at Bama under Saban is retarded.

Jameis Winston grew up a Bama fan in Mobile. He wanted to go there. But all Jimbo Fisher had to do to get him to go to FSU was to tell him to look at the history of NOT putting guys in the NFL. You don't get better by handing the ball off every play in the 4th quarter up by 35 points. I'd say it was NOT a "retarded" move. I'd say he's actually pretty smart because he is a starter in the NFL, and the best QB Saban has ever put in the NFL is a career benchwarmer. Winston developed at FSU.

I'd say if you were a legit NFL potential talent, you'd be wasting your shot at being the NFL by going to Bama. But hey, I'm just going by the numbers. Saban is 0-fer when it comes to his QBs becoming starters in the NFL. Compare Mullen's track record, who has put Josh Harris, 14 year vet and #1 pick Alex Smith (who by the way was the current pro bowl starter), Heisman Trophy Winner and NFL starter Tim Tebow, and some guy named Dak who went on to have arguably the greatest rookie year for a QB in NFL history and currently has more endorsement deals than any other player in the NFL. He also started in the pro bowl. Saban has, well, his lone QB currently in the league has his own restaurant. No major endorsement deals, but nobody really wants that anyway, right? What people really dream of is owning their own restaurant. If that's your dream, Saban is right up your alley!

[TUSK]

Jameis Winston grew up a Bama fan in Mobile. He wanted to go there. But all Jimbo Fisher had to do to get him to go to FSU was to tell him to look at the history of NOT putting guys in the NFL. You don't get better by handing the ball off every play in the 4th quarter up by 35 points. I'd say it was NOT a "retarded" move. I'd say he's actually pretty smart because he is a starter in the NFL, and the best QB Saban has ever put in the NFL is a career benchwarmer. Winston developed at FSU.

I'd say if you were a legit NFL potential talent, you'd be wasting your shot at being the NFL by going to Bama. But hey, I'm just going by the numbers. Saban is 0-fer when it comes to his QBs becoming starters in the NFL. Compare Mullen's track record, who has put Josh Harris, 14 year vet and #1 pick Alex Smith (who by the way was the current pro bowl starter), Heisman Trophy Winner and NFL starter Tim Tebow, and some guy named Dak who went on to have arguably the greatest rookie year for a QB in NFL history and currently has more endorsement deals than any other player in the NFL. He also started in the pro bowl. Saban has, well, his lone QB currently in the league has his own restaurant. No major endorsement deals, but nobody really wants that anyway, right? What people really dream of is owning their own restaurant. If that's your dream, Saban is right up your alley!

#triggered.

[Gutter Cobreh]

Jameis Winston grew up a Bama fan in Mobile. He wanted to go there. But all Jimbo Fisher had to do to get him to go to FSU was to tell him to look at the history of NOT putting guys in the NFL. You don't get better by handing the ball off every play in the 4th quarter up by 35 points. I'd say it was NOT a "retarded" move. I'd say he's actually pretty smart because he is a starter in the NFL, and the best QB Saban has ever put in the NFL is a career benchwarmer. Winston developed at FSU.

I'd say if you were a legit NFL potential talent, you'd be wasting your shot at being the NFL by going to Bama. But hey, I'm just going by the numbers. Saban is 0-fer when it comes to his QBs becoming starters in the NFL. Compare Mullen's track record, who has put Josh Harris, 14 year vet and #1 pick Alex Smith (who by the way was the current pro bowl starter), Heisman Trophy Winner and NFL starter Tim Tebow, and some guy named Dak who went on to have arguably the greatest rookie year for a QB in NFL history and currently has more endorsement deals than any other player in the NFL. He also started in the pro bowl. Saban has, well, his lone QB currently in the league has his own restaurant. No major endorsement deals, but nobody really wants that anyway, right? What people really dream of is owning their own restaurant. If that's your dream, Saban is right up your alley!

Really? You're using Winston as an example? He has trouble forming coherent sentences. I won't even bring up his college issues while at FSU. Maybe, just maybe, he didn't show Bama he was a good fit for their program.

Saban has notoriously recruited smart kids to play QB (aka McClroy, McCarron, etc.). He needs a game manager for his system and offense to be successful. When you're stacked at RB and WR, you don't need a flashy QB to make the offense successful.

We aren't comparing if Mullen develops QBs better than Saban. The OP asked if you were a top rated QB would you go to Bama, and the answer should be a resounding yes. Ask Shea Patterson if he'd rather be on Bama's roster right about now (since he was highly rated out of high school)?

As a side, we got Prescott because Miles is an idiot. Glad we did, but he would have been a Tiger if they would have promised him a shot at QB.

[MSUDAWGFAN]

Really? You're using Winston as an example? He has trouble forming coherent sentences. I won't even bring up his college issues while at FSU. Maybe, just maybe, he didn't show Bama he was a good fit for their program.

Saban has notoriously recruited smart kids to play QB (aka McClroy, McCarron, etc.). He needs a game manager for his system and offense to be successful. When you're stacked at RB and WR, you don't need a flashy QB to make the offense successful.

We aren't comparing if Mullen develops QBs better than Saban. The OP asked if you were a top rated QB would you go to Bama, and the answer should be a resounding yes. Ask Shea Patterson if he'd rather be on Bama's roster right about now (since he was highly rated out of high school)?

As a side, we got Prescott because Miles is an idiot. Glad we did, but he would have been a Tiger if they would have promised him a shot at QB.

Winston was absolutely offered by Bama. Your whole smart point goes out the window right there. If he wasn't a fit, Saban shouldn't have offered him. But he did. And Winston turned him down. Maybe, just maybe, he had the sense to realize the numbers don't add up for QBs going to Bama and decided to go somewhere else to develop. If you or Tusk can't handle that, I don't know what to say. I am objective and I look at numbers. If you are any other position, do you go to Bama? Sure, if you can get on the field, but not at QB.

Also, Saban never recruited McElroy. He INHERITED him. So the smart kid who you say is the type of player Saban wants, wasn't recruited by Saban, and the player who is too "retarded" was. I think you have this backwards. Do you even look up ANYTHING before posting your drivel?

Maybe Dak would have gone to LSU. I'm not disputing that. Maybe he wouldn't have ended up in the NFL either. We'll never know. Same with Winston possibly having gone to Bama. What we do know is that Saban is 0-fer in putting QBs in the league that end up starting. All the while he has signed at least one 4 or 5 star QB EVERY YEAR he has been there. Surely, one of these studs could go on to start, right? #FACTS

[MSUDAWGFAN]

When you're stacked at RB and WR, you don't need a flashy QB to make the offense successful.

The OP asked if you were a top rated QB would you go to Bama, and the answer should be a resounding yes.

I agree with this first sentence. Saban's goal isn't to develop QBs, it's to win national championships. His formula for doing that is ball control and not turning the ball over. Run the clock down. And that formula is NOT conducive to developing a QB. Which is why I answered the question the OP asked the way I did. Should a top QB go somewhere else? If they have a shot to get to the NFL (and eventually become a starter) they should absolutely go anywhere else.

[Johnson85]

You have this backwards. Alabama's offense is actually tailor made for what actually works, percentage wise, in the NFL. The pro-style offensive system will always be the method of choice up there, and with that, you have to 1 - have the arm to make the throws, and 2 - possess great decision making. Everything else is simply gravy.

Alabama's problem has been quarterback evaluation. I don't think Hurts is an NFL quarterback, but he's a good college quarterback, in a great situation. Having talent around you is never a bad thing. I see several things in your post above that are just wrong. Clemson wasn't a top recruiter? WTF? Auburn had average talent around Cam? WTF? Did you see their offensive line?

Isn't McCarron in the NFL?

Alabama's offensive system is good for QB's looking to go pro. What is not good is having 9 or even 10 games a year where your team is so dominant that it doesn't really matter what you do, especially if your OL is consistently giving you plenty of time to throw and your WRs are good enough that you don't have to make great throws to move the offense.

I definitely think Bama has had some QBs lately that weren't making it regardless, but I do think McCarron benefited from playing in possibly the strongest division ever. If McCarron is playing on the last few year of alabama teams, I think they end up so dominant that it does result in him progressing less than he did playing the competition he actually played.

ETA: All that to say, I'd definitely consider Bama. But I would be less inclined to go there as a QB compared to any other position.

[Token Bammer]

Jameis Winston grew up a Bama fan in Mobile. He wanted to go there. But all Jimbo Fisher had to do to get him to go to FSU was to tell him to look at the history of NOT putting guys in the NFL. You don't get better by handing the ball off every play in the 4th quarter up by 35 points. I'd say it was NOT a "retarded" move. I'd say he's actually pretty smart because he is a starter in the NFL, and the best QB Saban has ever put in the NFL is a career benchwarmer. Winston developed at FSU.

I'd say if you were a legit NFL potential talent, you'd be wasting your shot at being the NFL by going to Bama. But hey, I'm just going by the numbers. Saban is 0-fer when it comes to his QBs becoming starters in the NFL. Compare Mullen's track record, who has put Josh Harris, 14 year vet and #1 pick Alex Smith (who by the way was the current pro bowl starter), Heisman Trophy Winner and NFL starter Tim Tebow, and some guy named Dak who went on to have arguably the greatest rookie year for a QB in NFL history and currently has more endorsement deals than any other player in the NFL. He also started in the pro bowl. Saban has, well, his lone QB currently in the league has his own restaurant. No major endorsement deals, but nobody really wants that anyway, right? What people really dream of is owning their own restaurant. If that's your dream, Saban is right up your alley!

The reason Jameis went to FSU was because his dad wanted him to. Period. Well, that and Saban and staff wasn't fond of character/daddy issues.

[MSUDAWGFAN]

The reason Jameis went to FSU was because his dad wanted him to. Period. Well, that and Saban and staff wasn't fond of character/daddy issues.

Spin. We didn't want him anyway. Saban ABSOLUTELY offered him. This is an objective fact.

Since when did Saban have issues with having players on the team with problems as long as they have talent? Cam Robinson had illegal guns in Louisiana and Saban didn't kick him off. Tim Williams failed 3 drug tests while at Bama, and he wasn't kicked off. I'll give you one guess as to how many seconds he missed and I'll give you one hint: Not one second. You need me to name more?

Saban had Jonathan Taylor on the team AFTER he had been arrested for domestic abuse and then Taylor got arrested AGAIN. Why would Saban put up with DOMESTIC ABUSE but not Daddy issues? He also kept Courtney Upshaw.

Stop the spin.

Saban would have ABSOLUTELY taken him (and that's why he offered).

[MSUDAWGFAN]

The reason Jameis went to FSU was because his dad wanted him to. Period. Well, that and Saban and staff wasn't fond of character/daddy issues.

Why would Saban have allowed him to play baseball AND football if he didn't really want him?

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2013/12/why_didnt_jameis_winston_sign.html

[TUSK]

Saban had Jonathan Taylor on the team AFTER he had been arrested for domestic abuse and then Taylor got arrested AGAIN.

I agree with you on this! No way any guy should get a 2nd chance after beating up a girl...*

[MSUDAWGFAN]

I agree with you on this! No way any guy should get a 2nd chance after beating up a girl...*

I think you miss the point. He said Winston went to FSU because Saban didn't want to deal with daddy ssues. First, that's patently false, but if it was true, it'd be very hypocritical to deal with issues he has dealt with. Its spin just like the poster that stated that Saban didn't want Winston because he wasn't smart. Both posters would do themselves a favor by doing a little research or just not posting at all.

[TUSK]

I think you miss the point. He said Winston went to FSU because Saban didn't want to deal with daddy ssues. First, that's patently false, but if it was true, it'd be very hypocritical to deal with issues he has dealt with. Its spin just like the poster that stated that Saban didn't want Winston because he wasn't smart. Both posters would do themselves a favor by doing a little research or just not posting at all.

You completely missed my crack....

Somebody help this cat out....

[bulldawg28]

No- As mentioned earlier Saban' s job is to win championships. The defense gets the benefit because he's a defensive coach that is hands on. No Qb development in preparation for the NFL. His philosophy changed with Kiffin. Hence, the reason they never saw eye to eye imo. Kiffin was trying to develop and run plays, Saban just wanted to win via running the ball.

[Gutter Cobreh]

You completely missed my crack....

Somebody help this cat out....

The maroon colored glasses are so thick for some they can't see anything objectively. In his defense, Simmons was defending his sister.

[TUSK]

The maroon colored glasses are so thick for some they can't see anything objectively. In his defense, Simmons was defending his sister.

That shite was still funny, tho.... c'mon mane!

[Token Bammer]

Spin. We didn't want him anyway. Saban ABSOLUTELY offered him. This is an objective fact.

Since when did Saban have issues with having players on the team with problems as long as they have talent? Cam Robinson had illegal guns in Louisiana and Saban didn't kick him off. Tim Williams failed 3 drug tests while at Bama, and he wasn't kicked off. I'll give you one guess as to how many seconds he missed and I'll give you one hint: Not one second. You need me to name more?

Saban had Jonathan Taylor on the team AFTER he had been arrested for domestic abuse and then Taylor got arrested AGAIN. Why would Saban put up with DOMESTIC ABUSE but not Daddy issues? He also kept Courtney Upshaw.

Stop the spin.

Saban would have ABSOLUTELY taken him (and that's why he offered).

I never said Saban didn't offer. I clearly said THE reason for Winston going to FSU was because his father wanted him to.

However, Saban and staff did reach a point with his father (who was very difficult to deal with and was sort of a handler) that it didn't hurt their feelings to see him go.

Saban has always given players second chances and he has openly explained why several times. A player and his father being a constant headache isn't something he cares for. Sure, he takes players with issues. Every coach does. However, if players don't adapt to Saban he doesn't adapt to them. It's his way or the highway. As he told Julio Jones to his face, "we will win with you, or we will win without you".

Anyhow, I think CNS did reasonably well without Winston.

[TUSK]

Anyhow, I think CNS did reasonably well without Winston.

I'd say he did "aight"....

[MSUDAWGFAN]

The maroon colored glasses are so thick for some they can't see anything objectively. In his defense, Simmons was defending his sister.

No, I just don't say Mullen won't take a player because of a difficult parent (something relatively very minor) to domestic violence (do I need to say this is relatively major?). There has been no documentation that Saban didn't really want Winston. That's just fan speak for losing out on a player. And given Saban's record of QBs becoming starters in the NFL, I'd say it was anything but "retarded".
As for objective, I think I'm the only one here discussing objective facts. People have stated Saban only recruits "smart" players like McElroy (when Saban didn't recruit McElroy) and the equivalent of "we didn't want him" when they absolutely did. As I said before, any other position - sure you go. If your goal is simply to win a natty as a QB, then sure go. But most high profile recruits have the goal of going pro, and in that regard for a QB Saban has failed. Miserably. Thats objective.

[TUSK]

No, I just don't say Mullen won't take a player because of a difficult parent (something relatively very minor) to domestic violence (do I need to say this is relatively major?). There has been no documentation that Saban didn't really want Winston. That's just fan speak for losing out on a player. And given Saban's record of QBs becoming starters in the NFL, I'd say it was anything but "retarded".
As for objective, I think I'm the only one here discussing objective facts. People have stated Saban only recruits "smart" players like McElroy (when Saban didn't recruit McElroy) and the equivalent of "we didn't want him" when they absolutely did. As I said before, any other position - sure you go. If your goal is simply to win a natty as a QB, then sure go. But most high profile recruits have the goal of going pro, and in that regard for a QB Saban has failed. Miserably. Thats objective.

Yawn.

[MSUDAWGFAN]

I'd say he did "aight"....

Sure he did, but I may have missed the part where this was about Saban's teams. If I did, I apologize. Saban will average a NC every 2-3 years. That's mighty impressive. But I thought it was about the QBs. And if I'm right on being about the QBs, how is the NFL career going for the QBs that were there during Winston's FSU career? Was it Sims and Coker? How many yards did they pass for last year? What was their QB rating this last year?

You can yawn, call me triggered, say I'm not objective, make up "facts" or whatever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP was dead on that no high profile QB should go to Bama if their goal is to make the NFL. And I have laid out a very objective case as to why.

On a different note: do you think Saban is "clean" in his recruiting?

Full transparecy: I believe everyone is cheating, including us. And whether he is or not, it doesn't diminsh the accomplishments he has made, at least in my mind.

[Todd4State]

Jameis not going to Florida State is probably going to be the biggest "what if" of the Saban era. They probably don't lose to Auburn on the last second field goal and they probably have at least one more National Title. They also probably don't lose to Ole Miss.

[Token Bammer]

I'm still trying to figure out who said Saban didn't want Winston.....

[TUSK]

1)And if I'm right on being about the QBs, how is the NFL career going for the QBs that were there during Winston's FSU career? Was it Sims and Coker?
2)How many yards did they pass for last year? What was their QB rating this last year?


1) It was Sims and he had a shot in the CFL.... not sure if he's still playing...
2) More than Winston.
3) Higher than Winston's.

[Commercecomet24]

This thread has lasted almost 2 days. Amazing.

[MSUDAWGFAN]

1) It was Sims and he had a shot in the CFL.... not sure if he's still playing...
2) More than Winston.
3) Higher than Winston's.

There you go, just making stuff up like other posters. Just stop. It doesn't help your case.

[Gutter Cobreh]

That shite was still funny, tho.... c'mon mane!

If I could have given you rep, I would have as it took me a minute to get what you were referring to. I need to spread the rep around, so couldn't acknowledge.


This thread has lasted almost 2 days. Amazing.

MSUDAWGFAN thinks this is a subject that can actually be proven either correct or incorrect, yet fails to realize it's all subjective. Every 5* QB is different, as they all have different motives that drive them (playing time, winning , money, girls, etc.) Saban's track record does not prove or disprove whether he can "develop" NFL QBs. Hell, Quan and Engram made the league out of Ole Miss only knowing 3 routes. Some kids are athletic freaks and will succeed (aka get drafted) regardless of college coaching.

[TUSK]

There you go, just making stuff up like other posters. Just stop. It doesn't help your case.

Your interrogatives were as follows:

1) How is the NFL career going for the QBs that were there during Winston's FSU career? Was it Sims and Coker?
Answer: "It was Sims (2014) and he had a shot in the CFL.... not sure if he's still playing..." (Winston's and Sims's last year was 2014)

2) How many yards did they pass for last year?
Answer: 2014 Yards/Attempt: Sims 8.9; Winston 8.5

3) What was their QB rating this last year?
Answer: 2014 Passer Rtg: Sims ~158; Winston ~146

Added Bonus Stats from their last year (2014):
Completion %: Sims ~65%; Winston ~65%
TDs: Sims 28; Winston 25
INTs: Sims 10; Winston 18 (congrats, your guy won a category)

and Winston threw the ball a lot more than Sims, too... in addition to stealing crab legs and being a misogynist...

I'm not saying that Sims is an NFL QB, he's not... neither is Hurts... nor was Coker, Wilson or Mac... Hell, AJ McCarron barely is...

But to say that Winston was a "(stats wise) better QB than Sims in their last year of college football" is inaccurate, at best... at worst, it's a "lie"....

[MSUDAWGFAN]

Your interrogatives were as follows:

1) How is the NFL career going for the QBs that were there during Winston's FSU career? Was it Sims and Coker?
Answer: "It was Sims (2014) and he had a shot in the CFL.... not sure if he's still playing..." (Winston's and Sims's last year was 2014)

2) How many yards did they pass for last year?
Answer: 2014 Yards/Attempt: Sims 8.9; Winston 8.5

3) What was their QB rating this last year?
Answer: 2014 Passer Rtg: Sims ~158; Winston ~146

Added Bonus Stats from their last year (2014):
Completion %: Sims ~65%; Winston ~65%
TDs: Sims 28; Winston 25
INTs: Sims 10; Winston 18 (congrats, your guy won a category)

and Winston threw the ball a lot more than Sims, too... in addition to stealing crab legs and being a misogynist...

I'm not saying that Sims is an NFL QB, he's not... neither is Hurts... nor was Coker, Wilson or Mac... Hell, AJ McCarron barely is...

But to say that Winston was a "(stats wise) better QB than Sims in their last year of college football" is inaccurate, at best... at worst, it's a "lie"....


That's a misunderstanding at best and a lie at worst. I didn't ask what their stats were in THEIR last year OF CFB. I asked what it was last year (it's 2017 so by simple math - 2017 - 1 = 2016). Sims was listed as a FA RB and had zero yards. Winston had more than zero. I can post them if you like.

[MSUDAWGFAN]

If I could have given you rep, I would have as it took me a minute to get what you were referring to. I need to spread the rep around, so couldn't acknowledge.



MSUDAWGFAN thinks this is a subject that can actually be proven either correct or incorrect, yet fails to realize it's all subjective. Every 5* QB is different, as they all have different motives that drive them (playing time, winning , money, girls, etc.) Saban's track record does not prove or disprove whether he can "develop" NFL QBs. Hell, Quan and Engram made the league out of Ole Miss only knowing 3 routes. Some kids are athletic freaks and will succeed (aka get drafted) regardless of college coaching.

This isn't even close to true. That is actually an opinion, not like Winston having an NFL career unlike Sims. What I have stated (repeatedly) is that if they have aspirations of making the NFL, they shouldn't go to Bama. And the numbers back up my claim. If they go for playing time, they would likely get at least as much anywhere else so that is the same. If it's to win a natty, sure go to Bama. But most high profile recruits have aspirations of the NFL. Ask any NFL guy if they'd rather have a natty in college or be an NFL player and I'd bet you'd get 100% for being in the NFL. But I haven't taken a poll, so there may be some that would trade. I would just doubt it.

[Gutter Cobreh]

This isn't even close to true. That is actually an opinion, not like Winston having an NFL career unlike Sims. What I have stated (repeatedly) is that if they have aspirations of making the NFL, they shouldn't go to Bama. And the numbers back up my claim. If they go for playing time, they would likely get at least as much anywhere else so that is the same. If it's to win a natty, sure go to Bama. But most high profile recruits have aspirations of the NFL. Ask any NFL guy if they'd rather have a natty in college or be an NFL player and I'd bet you'd get 100% for being in the NFL. But I haven't taken a poll, so there may be some that would trade. I would just doubt it.

In looking at the top QB prospects from last year, the top 10 committed to the following schools:

Pro Style - Clemson (2), Stanford, Georgia, Maryland, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Michigan, Penn State, Alabama
Dual-threat - TX A&M, Ohio State, Alabama, MS State, Texas, USC, Oregon, Miami, Louisville, FL State

There are a lot of "blue blood" institutions listed for prospects whose only goal is to make the NFL.

When does someone tell Tua and Mac Jones that they now have no shot at succeeding in the NFL since they chose to attend Bama?? The 3-4 years they will spend in college, competing against the best defenses and playing on the biggest stages surely will hinder their growth.

Instead, they should have chosen a place like Maryland where they would get to learn how to work on their quick release in lieu of getting their brains kicked in by teams (like UCF).

[TUSK]

That's a misunderstanding at best and a lie at worst. I didn't ask what their stats were in THEIR last year OF CFB. I asked what it was last year (it's 2017 so by simple math - 2017 - 1 = 2016). Sims was listed as a FA RB and had zero yards. Winston had more than zero. I can post them if you like.

Certainly a misunderstanding. I’m a data guru but even I can draw a comparison between something that exists and something that doesn’t... probably need to get Boom in on this...*