Watched 49ers read option fail again

[blacklistedbully]

Commentators talked about how NFL defenses have figured it out, and colleges are starting to as well. Defenses changing assignments causing the QB to "read" off the wrong defensive player.

I'm wondering how our coaches on this board feel about that. Is it something that concerns you at all, if not this year, then it the near future?

[Ronny]

..is trying to run the read option?

My reaction is to laugh in their face for their dumbassery.

As I'm sure is the reaction of the rest of the free world.

[blacklistedbully]

..is trying to run the read option?

My reaction is to laugh in their face for their dumbassery.

As I'm sure is the reaction of the rest of the free world.

49ers did pretty well last year with Kaepernik running it. The point was that defenses have adjusted.

[Bo Darville]

I still say in the NFL, gimme Brady, Brees, P. Manning etc. over the dual-threat QB. In college, give me the dual-threat QB.

[ckDOG]

I think NFL defenses are more likely to adapt because they have rosters full of world-class athletes. Most college defenses will always have trouble with the option because they are more likely to get beat when the option works and there's a one-on-one matchup in open space. Lesser talent is going to have more trouble making plays in those situations. Of course, the teams with the top talent are always going to be at an advantage regardless of approach - I'm just talking general trends against non-elite talent in the college level. I don't think the approach of making defenses think with the option ball and spreading out limited talent will go away any time soon.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if we see some success and resurgence with the old-school power-I game in the next 5-7 years. As college defenses recruit more versatile players on defense to address the up-tempo stuff we see today, that's going to require recruiting a smaller/speedier guy. As the defenses get smaller, that will open up exploitation by having a late 90's MSU offensive line blocking for big full backs and running backs to basically run over the smaller guys in front of them. Again, the best talent will trump scheme, but for the non-elite programs, this change in approach is bound to happen. It's all cycles.

[Bubb Rubb]

Commentators talked about how NFL defenses have figured it out, and colleges are starting to as well. Defenses changing assignments causing the QB to "read" off the wrong defensive player.

I'm wondering how our coaches on this board feel about that. Is it something that concerns you at all, if not this year, then it the near future?

If the prevailing thought is that NFL defenses have figured it out, Russell Wilson says he hopes they all still think they have it figured out.

[PassInterference]

I don't see the read option being a long term thing in the NFL where rules are made to favor the passing game.

[Bubb Rubb]

I don't see the read option being a long term thing in the NFL where rules are made to favor the passing game.

Rules are made to favor the QB, that's for sure. Last night's game is a great example. Cutler runs the ball, and the defender checks up because he doesn't want to get a penalty. Cutler sees this and lowers his shoulder instead of sliding. Then Collinsworth has an orgasm on the air about how tough Cutler is.

I agree with the rule about hitting defenseless receivers, but that is used too liberally as well. The QB can throw high over the middle and now the receiver can go up after it without fear of getting hit.

It's a different game than it was ten years ago.

[Goat Holder]

In the NFL, where talent is near equal, you run the pro-style offense. That's why it's called pro-style. All the gimmicky college offenses are designed to make up for talent gaps. If you have the talent, you run a pro-style. Coaching at the pro level is about out-witting and out-smarting and out-executing your competition. Not simply talent and match-ups. Can't out-run people in the NFL. That's why dual-threats don't work. Michael Vick is the greatest running QB ever, and he gets killed. You ABSOLUTELY must possess the intangible cerebral skills to succeed at QB in the NFL. A great arm is a given, it's a prerequisite. If you can run, great, but without the other it doesn't matter.

[Johnson85]

I still say in the NFL, gimme Brady, Brees, P. Manning etc. over the dual-threat QB. In college, give me the dual-threat QB.

I think the Brady, Brees, Manning, etc. are better in college too, there's just so damn few of them. It doesn't seem that way in the NFL because you get a good bunch of them, and then they play for 10 years a piece at a pretty high level.

In college, you get them for 4, and usually it takes at least one and sometimes two for even the great ones to develop, so it feels like less than that. I literally don't remember Brady being at Michigan. So you stick with the dual threats because you can get them and they can be effective without knowing defenses the way a pure pocket passer needs to to be great.

[PassInterference]

I agree with the rule about hitting defenseless receivers, but that is used too liberally as well. The QB can throw high over the middle and now the receiver can go up after it without fear of getting hit.

That play is going to end careers with knee injuries. Instead of launching into the sternum, defenders will go low and blow out WR knees. It happened just like that in a preseason game I watched.

[Bo Darville]

I think the Brady, Brees, Manning, etc. are better in college too, there's just so damn few of them. It doesn't seem that way in the NFL because you get a good bunch of them, and then they play for 10 years a piece at a pretty high level.


I would always take the great dual-threat in college. I would take Auburn's Cam Newton over Tennessee's Peyton Manning if I'm a college coach. The problem in the NFL is health. In college, you play a maximum of 14 games (12 regular season, then conference championship game, then bowl game). Players are done by 22-23 years old. However, in the NFL you could easily play 24 games (including preseason and playoffs). Age also becomes a factor. I don't think RG3 is going to run at the same speed when he hits Peyton Manning's age. I want to see one of these dual threat QB's play full seasons, year after year, for 15 years.

I think Andrew Luck can be who he is at 36 years old. I think RG3 and Kapernick will have to adapt as they age.

[dawgs]

1) it's 1 game

2) let's see how offenses respond and vary up some of the read option stuff

3) why does the Internet make everyone wanna rush to make premature absolute statements about everything?

[blacklistedbully]

1) it's 1 game

2) let's see how offenses respond and vary up some of the read option stuff

3) why does the Internet make everyone wanna rush to make premature absolute statements about everything?

Are you kidding me? It's 2 games in a row this season from a team that was the odds-on favorite to win the SB this year. In the past 2 games, the offense has scored 1 TD. Also, I simply stated it was a point made by the commentators during the game, and I asked the coaches on our board for their opinion. Where the hell do you get off with this BS, "3) why does the Internet make everyone wanna rush to make premature absolute statements about everything?"?

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

Where the hell do you get off with this BS, "3) why does the Internet make everyone wanna rush to make premature absolute statements about everything?"?

probably because people on the internet routinely rush to make premature absolute statements about everything. as for the 49ers, a lot of it has to do with the complete lack of WR talent they have at the moment. They were without 3 of their top 4 pass catchers in yesterdays game. It's been a brutal 2 game stretch for them (one which has decimated my fantasy squad), but the lack of receiving options and lackluster offensive gameplan/playcalling likely have more to do with it than "mobile qbs don't work in the nfl".

[DownwardDawg]

I still say in the NFL, gimme Brady, Brees, P. Manning etc. over the dual-threat QB. In college, give me the dual-threat QB.

^^^This^^^
I completely agree.

[fishwater99]

In the NFL, where talent is near equal, you run the pro-style offense. That's why it's called pro-style. All the gimmicky college offenses are designed to make up for talent gaps. If you have the talent, you run a pro-style. Coaching at the pro level is about out-witting and out-smarting and out-executing your competition. Not simply talent and match-ups. Can't out-run people in the NFL. That's why dual-threats don't work. Michael Vick is the greatest running QB ever, and he gets killed. You ABSOLUTELY must possess the intangible cerebral skills to succeed at QB in the NFL. A great arm is a given, it's a prerequisite. If you can run, great, but without the other it doesn't matter.

When Vick was the fastest guy on the field he made more of a difference. He has lost a step or two and it shows..

[blacklistedbully]

probably because people on the internet routinely rush to make premature absolute statements about everything. as for the 49ers, a lot of it has to do with the complete lack of WR talent they have at the moment. They were without 3 of their top 4 pass catchers in yesterdays game. It's been a brutal 2 game stretch for them (one which has decimated my fantasy squad), but the lack of receiving options and lackluster offensive gameplan/playcalling likely have more to do with it than "mobile qbs don't work in the nfl".

I didn't say, "mobile qbs don't work in the nfl". I posted what the commentators said during the broadcast about defenses catching up and asked our mb coaches their opinion. I absolutely did not "rush to make premature absolute statements about everything". What is pretty damned silly is people making absolute statements like, "absolute statements about everything".

[smootness]

Are you kidding me? It's 2 games in a row this season from a team that was the odds-on favorite to win the SB this year. In the past 2 games, the offense has scored 1 TD. Also, I simply stated it was a point made by the commentators during the game, and I asked the coaches on our board for their opinion. Where the hell do you get off with this BS, "3) why does the Internet make everyone wanna rush to make premature absolute statements about everything?"?

This whole thread, and whatever commentators are claiming NFL defenses have figured it out, is missing the mark. The 49ers have actually run very little read option this year and are thinking about going back to it because of how their offense has stalled the last 2 weeks. After the NFL came out and stated that the QB can be hit without the ball if he is completing a fake on the read option, Harbaugh had a fit and they've tried to go away from it. That is the main reason Kaepernick has struggled, because they haven't run much read option, not because they have.

There is nothing for defenses to 'figure out', and you're seeing that with Prescott in at QB. You just have to have somebody who is a threat to pull it and take off running it. If you have that, then the defense can't figure anything out. They know you're going to run the read option, but they don't know what the QB is going to do with the ball. Thus, the QB has the ability, on each play, to read the way the defense is playing it (which can be disguised to some degree, but once the play starts, players are going to have to react the way they're instructed). If you play the QB, he will hand it off. If you play the RB, he will keep it. And if you just try to contain, he will take it up the middle, assuming you're blocking well.

It still comes down to what most plays ultimately come down to...blocking, QB/RB decision-making, and execution. It's like people saying they've 'figured out' the triple-option. There isn't anything to figure out - you know what they're running, but good luck stopping it if a) the qb knows what he's doing and can run and b) they run it well.

It's the same in the NFL as it is in college. College is always ahead of the NFL, and they will be again here, both on the read option and on the spread-out, rapid-fire passing attacks (which we're already seeing quite a bit of in the NFL).

ETA: I'm sure defenses have 'figured out' the Packers' offense - Rodgers is going to sit back and sling it. But they can't stop it, because Aaron Rodgers is really good and they execute well and make good decisions.

[Bubb Rubb]

This whole thread, and whatever commentators are claiming NFL defenses have figured it out, is missing the mark. The 49ers have actually run very little read option this year and are thinking about going back to it because of how their offense has stalled the last 2 weeks. After the NFL came out and stated that the QB can be hit without the ball if he is completing a fake on the read option, Harbaugh had a fit and they've tried to go away from it. That is the main reason Kaepernick has struggled, because they haven't run much read option, not because they have.

There is nothing for defenses to 'figure out', and you're seeing that with Prescott in at QB. You just have to have somebody who is a threat to pull it and take off running it. If you have that, then the defense can't figure anything out. They know you're going to run the read option, but they don't know what the QB is going to do with the ball. Thus, the QB has the ability, on each play, to read the way the defense is playing it (which can be disguised to some degree, but once the play starts, players are going to have to react the way they're instructed). If you play the QB, he will hand it off. If you play the RB, he will keep it. And if you just try to contain, he will take it up the middle, assuming you're blocking well.

It still comes down to what most plays ultimately come down to...blocking, QB/RB decision-making, and execution. It's like people saying they've 'figured out' the triple-option. There isn't anything to figure out - you know what they're running, but good luck stopping it if a) the qb knows what he's doing and can run and b) they run it well.

It's the same in the NFL as it is in college. College is always ahead of the NFL, and they will be again here, both on the read option and on the spread-out, rapid-fire passing attacks (which we're already seeing quite a bit of in the NFL).

ETA: I'm sure defenses have 'figured out' the Packers' offense - Rodgers is going to sit back and sling it. But they can't stop it, because Aaron Rodgers is really good and they execute well and make good decisions.

This is why I mentioned Russell Wilson. The Seahawks are still running a TON of read option stuff, and they are having a ton of success with it so far.

[ShotgunDawg]

actually, I was watching an NFL match-up show last night, and they said that the 49ers and Redskins aren't actually running much zone read because they don't want their QB to get hit that often. The show broke it down, and said that the 49ers and Redskins actually need to run more zone read.

Just because you consider them a zone read offense doesn't mean they are actually running the zone read.

[Bo Darville]

the 49ers and Redskins aren't actually running much zone read because they don't want their QB to get hit that often.

Therein lies one of the problems. It is like putting Relf at quarterback and them telling him don't run. You just took one of the things he did well and took it from the gameplan. Now your above average QB becomes a below average QB.

The thing that makes Kapernick and RG3 great is their ability to run AND pass. When you take one away, they aren't great anymore.

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

I didn't say, "mobile qbs don't work in the nfl". I posted what the commentators said during the broadcast about defenses catching up and asked our mb coaches their opinion. I absolutely did not "rush to make premature absolute statements about everything". What is pretty damned silly is people making absolute statements like, "absolute statements about everything".

First, I did not say that my quotations indicated something that you said. I was merely responding to the original question, and the quoted sentence was merely a paraphrase of a line of thinking on "why the read/option doesn't work in the NFL" or something along those lines. Second, I never indicated that you made any premature absolute statements either. I simply responding to your blasting of another poster who made that statement.

I understand that things get lost in translation when posted on a message board, but damn, everything is not posted as a direct attack on you.

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

The thing that makes Kapernick and RG3 great is their ability to run AND pass. When you take one away, they aren't great anymore.

I agree completely with this. The 49ers are hamstringing their own offense by not properly utilizing the strengths of their QB. I think they got overconfident in Kaep's pocket abilities after that GB game.

[blacklistedbully]

First, I did not say that my quotations indicated something that you said. I was merely responding to the original question, and the quoted sentence was merely a paraphrase of a line of thinking on "why the read/option doesn't work in the NFL" or something along those lines. Second, I never indicated that you made any premature absolute statements either. I simply responding to your blasting of another poster who made that statement.

I understand that things get lost in translation when posted on a message board, but damn, everything is not posted as a direct attack on you.

Funny, because I knew that's what you meant, and was directing my counter back at the other guy. But I didn't go out of my way to make that clear, so I see how you could read that as an attack on you.

[SheltonChoked]

What NFL GMs hope happens is a commoditization of the qb life has happened for RB. The beauty of a dual threat qb is that there are several very good ones every year.

[Coach34]

Are you kidding me? It's 2 games in a row this season from a team that was the odds-on favorite to win the SB this year. In the past 2 games, the offense has scored 1 TD. Also, I simply stated it was a point made by the commentators during the game, and I asked the coaches on our board for their opinion. Where the hell do you get off with this BS, "3) why does the Internet make everyone wanna rush to make premature absolute statements about everything?"?

The 49'ers WR's cant beat press coverage. Boldin was cut/traded by the Ravens because he is getting slow. Their other WR's on the 2-deep are named Kyle Williams, Quinton Patton, and Marlon Moore- a group of guys who's leader once caught 12 passes in a season

That's all that is wrong with the 49'ers. The last 2 teams have loaded the box and pressed their WR's- and the Secondarys are winning that battle. That's how you beat the zone-read- have CB's and Safeties that can man up on their WR's

[Dawg61]

The 49'ers WR's cant beat press coverage. Boldin was cut/traded by the Ravens because he is getting slow. Their other WR's on the 2-deep are named Kyle Williams, Quinton Patton, and Marlon Moore- a group of guys who's leader once caught 12 passes in a season

That's all that is wrong with the 49'ers. The last 2 teams have loaded the box and pressed their WR's- and the Secondarys are winning that battle. That's how you beat the zone-read- have CB's and Safeties that can man up on their WR's

I wonder if they've considered asking Randy Moss to come back. He knows the playbook and he'd immediately be their 2nd best WR at worst till Crabtree is fully recovered which won't be till 2014. If I'm Harbaugh I'm adding Moss and Josh Gordon from the Browns. Today.

[Coach 57]

Here's my thought on this.

1.) In H.S or CFB I would like to run the zone read stuff with a dual threat kid. The reason? In both the talent actually is (from school to school) quite different. So you either use it as a buffer to create mismatches Vs a superior talented team or I would like to use it to make the defense play honest.

2.) In the NFL give me my pocket passer. The reason? EVERYBODY is fast & can hit hard! I don't want my franchise QB getting hit repeatedly like that. It will shorten his career every time he takes a blow. I will rely on film study & reps to properly prepare my QB Vs an athletic advantage. Only run when you have to!


3.) I am a Colts fan & yes I think it has been figured out. Watched the game Sunday after church and saw what we as lower level coaches already teach "assignment football". Maintaining gap integrity is the most VITAL thing you can use to stop this type of O. SF actually did run it but it was snuffed out. The used a base scheme, pressed the wideouts with man press coverage. Sealed outside containment every play & brought pressure in Kap's face. Made them beat us throwing the ball. It's the best way to attack it. The Colts attacked it very well. And I was glad we got em'.

[engie]

Commentators talked about how NFL defenses have figured it out, and colleges are starting to as well. Defenses changing assignments causing the QB to "read" off the wrong defensive player.

Bump for more discussion after the dismantling of Jeff Fisher...

[whosyourdawgy]

No offense Engie. The read option didn't dismantle anything last night. Kapernick had 11 yds rushing and like 187 passing. Frank Gore, the 49ers D, and a suck ass Rams team is why the 49ers won last night. Read option had nothing to do with it

[scottycameron]

I still say in the NFL, gimme Brady, Brees, P. Manning etc. over the dual-threat QB. In college, give me the dual-threat QB.

you wouldn't want Brady, Brees, P. Manning etc. in college???

[msstate7]

you wouldn't want Brady, Brees, P. Manning etc. in college???

Those guys are next to impossible to find. On the other hand, really good dual threat college qb's are pretty common

[engie]

No offense Engie. The read option didn't dismantle anything last night. Kapernick had 11 yds rushing and like 187 passing. Frank Gore, the 49ers D, and a suck ass Rams team is why the 49ers won last night. Read option had nothing to do with it

The line was 3.

So, you are telling me the 49ers abandoned their base offense in a single week and went to something different?

[smootness]

So, you are telling me the 49ers abandoned their base offense in a single week and went to something different?

Their base offense this year has not been the read option, and it's killing my fantasy team.

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

Read option had nothing to do with it

mainly because they aren't running the read option very much

[archdog]

Commentators talked about how NFL defenses have figured it out, and colleges are starting to as well. Defenses changing assignments causing the QB to "read" off the wrong defensive player.

I'm wondering how our coaches on this board feel about that. Is it something that concerns you at all, if not this year, then it the near future?

So really you are saying that the read option cannot work, if your team tackles the two players that are involved in the play... interesting.
Mark that solution down for every type of offense you can design, unless you have a THIRD player involved.

[dawgs]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9730182/bill-barnwell-san-francisco-49ers

Furthermore, they were able to succeed without using the read-option, which has been a wildly irrelevant topic of discussion with regard to the team this year, despite what you might have read elsewhere. The 49ers have barely used the read-option this year. That doesn't mean that the read-option is dead, either; read-option usage is up around the league, and while it has been less effective than it was a year ago, read-option runs are still averaging five yards per carry. The 49ers haven't made it a focus so far this season, but it seems naive to believe that they won't bring it back as a surprise for a key game or situation once opponents have let it slip out of their minds.

gregg rosenthal
‏@greggrosenthal
From our research dept: Read option runs down league-wide from 6.1 YPC in 2012 to 5.0 this year. Still effective.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so i guess they have "figured" it out, but it's all relative. still an incredibly effective running play.

[archdog]

Their base offense this year has not been the read option, and it's killing my fantasy team.
^^^this^^^^ Their base offense is terrible. they should go all out on the read option again.

[dawgs]

I honestly think they are sandbagging a bit on offense. I could see them coming out in the 2nd half of the year or the playoffs and going back to the read-option. But I think for the moment, they are trying to keep kap from taking hits and lull teams into a sense of security. Time will tell if it bites them in the ass, but they probably think they could at least make the playoffs without the read-option at all anyway, so they are saving it. And if they get into a playoff hole by not running it, they can use it to dig themselves out of it.