Tunsil - draft night fiasco

[WSOPdawg]

So the Tunsil draft-night fiasco did NOT turn up in the latest NOA or require a response from TCUN.

Could the ncaa be keeping some ammo in reserve in the event TCUN wants to play stupid and fight the current allegations (as they apparently are)? Maybe the ncaa's intent is to officially HAMMER these cheating bastards into oblivion and irrelevancy.

And for you TCUN lurkers, TCUN = The Cheaters Up North. Hope you get used to being the nation's poster child for all things dishonest, SMU thanks you.

[LC Dawg]

I think draft night presented the name Barney to the NCAA as someone to focus on so draft night played a vital role in the latest NOA even though nothing came of the Tunsil revelation.

[TrapGame]

Wasn't the Tunsil stuff in the 1st NOA? The draft night confessional just proved to the NCAA they had been blatantly lied to by Freeze.

[Gordon Gekko]

Wasn't the first NOA supposed to be amended? Did that ever happen and if so did OM release a copy?

[Chip]

The amended NOA is what was released earlier this week.

[HSVDawg]

There have been a lot of local radio guys up here in AL asking why the draft night stuff wasn't included in the NOA.

The big question was even if Tunsil didn't talk to the NCAA after draft night, why would it matter if he admitted to being paid by coaches on national TV? Isn't that enough for the NCAA even if they didn't get a formal list of the particulars? The other question is that even if Tunsil didn't talk, the NCAA could still talk to Barney and the other guy from the text messages about what was alleged. In that case, they could only either call Tunsil a liar or admit wrongdoing during an ACTIVE NCAA investigation into his status. There is no in between, and they would be straight up shitcanned and show caused into the stone age if they refused to talk to the NCAA as well.

My personal opinion is that, legally speaking, it is a slippery slope to use any evidence not formally collected by the NCAA as part of the investigative process. OM lawyers would have a field day with that and the NCAA knows it. Thats why I'd be very interested to know Farrarr and the other director of player personnel's answer to the draft night questions were, because they had to have been asked.

I also think its very likely that the draft night debacle implicitly plays into the COI's final decision on penalties, regardless of whether it was included in the NOA. This will affect a lot of Level I's that are argued by OM to be mitigated or standard instead of aggravated, and so on. Never forget that, in spite if all the lawyers and legal arguments that take place behind closed doors before the COI, at the end of the day the NCAA still gets to hand down the penalties it wants. The new matrix structure, while more transparent than thr old system, still gives them a lot of flexibility to shift either way depending on the response and evidence available.

[Johnson85]

There have been a lot of local radio guys up here in AL asking why the draft night stuff wasn't included in the NOA.

The big question was even if Tunsil didn't talk to the NCAA after draft night, why would it matter if he admitted to being paid by coaches on national TV? Isn't that enough for the NCAA even if they didn't get a formal list of the particulars? The other question is that even if Tunsil didn't talk, the NCAA could still talk to Barney and the other guy from the text messages about what was alleged. In that case, they could only either call Tunsil a liar or admit wrongdoing during an ACTIVE NCAA investigation into his status. There is no in between, and they would be straight up shitcanned and show caused into the stone age if they refused to talk to the NCAA as well.

My personal opinion is that, legally speaking, it is a slippery slope to use any evidence not formally collected by the NCAA as part of the investigative process. OM lawyers would have a field day with that and the NCAA knows it. Thats why I'd be very interested to know Farrarr and the other director of player personnel's answer to the draft night questions were, because they had to have been asked.

I also think its very likely that the draft night debacle implicitly plays into the COI's final decision on penalties, regardless of whether it was included in the NOA. This will affect a lot of Level I's that are argued by OM to be mitigated or standard instead of aggravated, and so on. Never forget that, in spite if all the lawyers and legal arguments that take place behind closed doors before the COI, at the end of the day the NCAA still gets to hand down the penalties it wants. The new matrix structure, while more transparent than thr old system, still gives them a lot of flexibility to shift either way depending on the response and evidence available.

It seems pretty clear that in the past, the COI has punished people on what they thought happened, not necessarily based on what they officially acknowledged as proven. USC was hammered far beyond what the official infractions suggested. I'm not sure if there is back channel communication from the investigators to the COI or if the COI has their own impression of what each school is doing just because they're in the business, but they issue punishments on something other than the official record.

[yjnkdawg]

It seems pretty clear that in the past, the COI has punished people on what they thought happened, not necessarily based on what they officially acknowledged as proven. USC was hammered far beyond what the official infractions suggested. I'm not sure if there is back channel communication from the investigators to the COI or if the COI has their own impression of what each school is doing just because they're in the business, but they issue punishments on something other than the official record.





I don't know about the COI, but the NCAA's policy now is to have substantial evidence where they are confident they can prove to the COI that specific violations occurred. So if there is any question, they won't move forward with those suspected violations. What they are going to present to the COI is not things they thought happened, but they should have the documentation to prove it did happen.

[ShotgunDawg]

It doesn't really matter. The NCAA has them dead to rights with enough violations to sanction them numerous bowl bans and over 100 schollies.

My guess is that the draft night stuff pointed them in the right direction and they know what happened, but, since the NCAA requires proof nowadays, they may not have found enough proof to include the draft night stuff.

Again, it doesn't matter though. The NCAA has PLENTY

[The Federalist Engineer]

So the Tunsil draft-night fiasco did NOT turn up in the latest NOA or require a response from TCUN.

Could the ncaa be keeping some ammo in reserve in the event TCUN wants to play stupid and fight the current allegations (as they apparently are)? Maybe the ncaa's intent is to officially HAMMER these cheating bastards into oblivion and irrelevancy.

And for you TCUN lurkers, TCUN = The Cheaters Up North. Hope you get used to being the nation's poster child for all things dishonest, SMU thanks you.

As a graduate school alumnus of SMU, I really do say thank you

[yjnkdawg]

So the Tunsil draft-night fiasco did NOT turn up in the latest NOA or require a response from TCUN.

Could the ncaa be keeping some ammo in reserve in the event TCUN wants to play stupid and fight the current allegations (as they apparently are)? Maybe the ncaa's intent is to officially HAMMER these cheating bastards into oblivion and irrelevancy.

And for you TCUN lurkers, TCUN = The Cheaters Up North. Hope you get used to being the nation's poster child for all things dishonest, SMU thanks you.


I was wondering that too, but maybe the NCAA feels confident that they already have enough documented evidence to present to the COI. Maybe another NOA or Amended NOA will surface. Guess we will see.

[HSVDawg]

It doesn't really matter. The NCAA has them dead to rights with enough violations to sanction them numerous bowl bans and over 100 schollies.

My guess is that the draft night stuff pointed them in the right direction and they know what happened, but, since the NCAA requires proof nowadays, they may not have found enough proof to include the draft night stuff.

Again, it doesn't matter though. The NCAA has PLENTY

My original point was that it doesn't really matter what the final charges are before the COI as far as what is and isn't included. The punishment is all that matters. And its really easy for the NCAA to fit what they THINK the crime was even if no formal accusations are ever issued for things like the Tunsil stuff. The current penalty structure gives them the flexibility to do that. Conversely, if OM had actually been forthcoming and "exemplary" in their cooperation, the structure gives them flexibility to be more lenient as well.

[Mimi's Babies]

It doesn't really matter. The NCAA has them dead to rights with enough violations to sanction them numerous bowl bans and over 100 schollies.

My guess is that the draft night stuff pointed them in the right direction and they know what happened, but, since the NCAA requires proof nowadays, they may not have found enough proof to include the draft night stuff.

Again, it doesn't matter though. The NCAA has PLENTY

NCAA was told new evidence within 48 hours of signing day 2016. NCAA was already investigating the class of 2016.... FACT!!!

[WSOPdawg]

NCAA was told new evidence within 48 hours of signing day 2016. NCAA was already investigating the class of 2016.... FACT!!!

that's what i was thinking, Mimi, since we've heard they've been caught again with the '16 and '17 recruiting cycles. I'm just wondering if and when these elements of the systemic network cheating will surface on the ncaa's radar.

[Mimi's Babies]

that's what i was thinking, Mimi, since we've heard they've been caught again with the '16 and '17 recruiting cycles. I'm just wondering if and when these elements of the systemic network cheating will surface on the ncaa's radar.

Yes, the latest issues that I am aware of happened this spring 2017.

[Mimi's Babies]

that's what i was thinking, Mimi, since we've heard they've been caught again with the '16 and '17 recruiting cycles. I'm just wondering if and when these elements of the systemic network cheating will surface on the ncaa's radar.

COULD BE.... the NCAA hangs OM on this fact.. They did not stop cheating while the investigation was on going. Total disregard of policy and procedures of the NCAA.

[Reason2succeed]

As a graduate school alumnus of SMU, I really do say thank you

Me too! Pony up (or whatever I'm supposed to say with my two fingers waving around).

I think that OM knew that would be a target so they played the 2013 class very carefully and that's why we see very little if nothing of the Big 3.

I believe the OM players were probably told exactly how to corroborate their stories.

[KB549]

They are very specific in the amended NOA to specify dates on Hugh's lack of control of his staff. March (I think) 2012-January 2016. I think they were specific about the January date for a reason in THIS NOA. They had to draw a line in the sand ASAP and get it issued, responded to, and punished. I think this is why: They have seen how UNM is pulling out all the stops to keep Freeze. If the COI doesn't give him a show cause or crippling sanctions for some unknown reason, the next NOA will show they can't stop. I REALLY think the investigators despise them for the same reasons we do. Imagine having to be around that group for 4 years, not as friends, but adversaries.

Meanwhile, they continuie to investigate and let UNM hang themselves by continuing to cheat. Something stood out to me in the footnotes and at first I thought I found something. I realized that I hadn't, but it caused me to watch the Hostage Video again. They actually stated all of the allegations in the video, included the amended FTM to LOIC. I was shocked that there wasn't a hidden one.

So that got me to really thinking about this. The one thing UNM lied about in the video was something they've lied about before. The investigation is over. No. The investigation related to THIS amended NOA may be over. But not THE investigation. Do they honestly believe that the investigators believe they have committed no other level 1, 2, or 3s since Jan 2016? After continuing to cheat while under investigation for YEARS? All they hype around Cam?

Next, there was WAY TOO much publicity regarding the Draft Night for the NCAA not to somehow address it in the NOA. If there was nothing there to see, if I'm UNM, I tell them to charge us with a Level 1 for that so we can submit irrefutable proof that everything was on the up and up to clear our name. What's another Level 1 on top of the bakers dozen or so they already have?

In the hostage video, they don't say that no wrong doing was found related to draft night. They say that this amended NOA doesn't include anything related to it. So either it is still being investigated, or they don't have enough concrete proof right now. I'm guessing that LT's stepdad wasn't interviewed for hours and hours and hours to talk about cake recipes.

[Tbonewannabe]

They are very specific in the amended NOA to specify dates on Hugh's lack of control of his staff. March (I think) 2012-January 2016. I think they were specific about the January date for a reason in THIS NOA. They had to draw a line in the sand ASAP and get it issued, responded to, and punished. I think this is why: They have seen how UNM is pulling out all the stops to keep Freeze. If the COI doesn't give him a show cause or crippling sanctions for some unknown reason, the next NOA will show they can't stop. I REALLY think the investigators despise them for the same reasons we do. Imagine having to be around that group for 4 years, not as friends, but adversaries.

Meanwhile, they continuie to investigate and let UNM hang themselves by continuing to cheat. Something stood out to me in the footnotes and at first I thought I found something. I realized that I hadn't, but it caused me to watch the Hostage Video again. They actually stated all of the allegations in the video, included the amended FTM to LOIC. I was shocked that there wasn't a hidden one.

So that got me to really thinking about this. The one thing UNM lied about in the video was something they've lied about before. The investigation is over. No. The investigation related to THIS amended NOA may be over. But not THE investigation. Do they honestly believe that the investigators believe they have committed no other level 1, 2, or 3s since Jan 2016? After continuing to cheat while under investigation for YEARS? All they hype around Cam?

Next, there was WAY TOO much publicity regarding the Draft Night for the NCAA not to somehow address it in the NOA. If there was nothing there to see, if I'm UNM, I tell them to charge us with a Level 1 for that so we can submit irrefutable proof that everything was on the up and up to clear our name. What's another Level 1 on top of the bakers dozen or so they already have?

In the hostage video, they don't say that no wrong doing was found related to draft night. They say that this amended NOA doesn't include anything related to it. So either it is still being investigated, or they don't have enough concrete proof right now. I'm guessing that LT's stepdad wasn't interviewed for hours and hours and hours to talk about cake recipes.

I believe that there is going to be another NOA that could have the death penalty if they really were caught cheating with the 2016 and/or 2017 recruiting class. The Tunsil stuff will be within the investigation timeline. The next NOA will be under repeat offender status so the penalties get increased so I think the death penalty could be on the table for it. They are probably going to be hit with 2-3 year bowl ban plus a lot of schollies and show clauses for the Beaver and others. UNM fans will think it is over and then they get hit with the next NOA. NCAA is going to cripple them before going in for the death blow.

[Martianlander]

I believe that there is going to be another NOA that could have the death penalty if they really were caught cheating with the 2016 and/or 2017 recruiting class. The Tunsil stuff will be within the investigation timeline. The next NOA will be under repeat offender status so the penalties get increased so I think the death penalty could be on the table for it. They are probably going to be hit with 2-3 year bowl ban plus a lot of schollies and show clauses for the Beaver and others. UNM fans will think it is over and then they get hit with the next NOA. NCAA is going to cripple them before going in for the death blow.

Correct all the way. Also the committee members that decide the punishment are all very well aware of the draft night statement.

[KB549]

Yep. My thoughts exactly. I also went back and looked at the texts from draft night. The NCAA isn't dumb. Two things. Tunsil asked for help paying "my rent" and "Mom's light bill". So a 5 star LT doesn't get university housing in his scholarship? Riiiiiiiiiight. Was the university paying for off campus housing for him? Do they do that for girls soccer players, too? Seems like a title IX violation if not.

Second - Mom and step dad are "renting" a house from a guy who is a lawyer in their compliance department. Right? Pretty sure I remember doing a reverse address search on the court case address and tax records. And they still can't get their money straight? If the NCAA didn't do this level of investigation and see that it threw up a red flag, I need to go to work for them. The opportunity fund argument doesn't hold water. The house was probably a $200,000 house. I FB stalked LT's mom and step dad. The house was "well furnished" with new furniture and pretty much what you would expect from someone who didn't have money and then "came into it." Black leather furniture, pictures of tigers and leopards on the wall, gaudy brass lamps, etc if I'm remembering correctly. So they have money to rent a house out of their means, but can't pay a light bill?

Come on mane.

[WSOPdawg]

I believe that there is going to be another NOA that could have the death penalty if they really were caught cheating with the 2016 and/or 2017 recruiting class. The Tunsil stuff will be within the investigation timeline. The next NOA will be under repeat offender status so the penalties get increased so I think the death penalty could be on the table for it. They are probably going to be hit with 2-3 year bowl ban plus a lot of schollies and show clauses for the Beaver and others. UNM fans will think it is over and then they get hit with the next NOA. NCAA is going to cripple them before going in for the death blow.

I can see this because the ncaa had to realize they needed to get to the end of this 1st NOA since its dragging on for 5 years now (all the way back to 2010) and they can't allow the addition of MORE cheating violations to move the goal posts further away and yield more time. So TCUN may very well get hit with another NOA in early 2018, which would be shocking to their fan base if it happened (please, please, please let it happen).