My guess on OM sanctions

[preachermatt83]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.

[msbulldog]

C'mon My Brother In Christ, are you trying to add to your prediction record? If the NCAA gives just one third of their penalty matrix its way more than that.

[Dolphus Raymond]

I'm going 32 over 4. My line of thinking is since USC got popped for 30, the NCAA will have to hit them a little harder.

[Mimi's Babies]

All Coaches will receive a show cause 8 to 10+ years...
Would love to see freezus with a show cause of 10+ years and a never coach again...
40 Scholorships
3 bowl bans
5 - 10 years probation....
Retractions of ALL wins since Feezus went to OM the 1st time....

[Bully13]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.

3 yr bowl ban
4 yrs probation
40 over 4
Freezus gone

[Mimi's Babies]

3 yr bowl ban
4 yrs probation
40 over 4
Freezus gone

Has any viewed a copy of freezus contract? Will a "show cause" get Om out of paying off his buy out? I have heard that Freezus is going to stick it to OM....

[Liverpooldawg]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.

If that's all they get then the new much ballyhooed new penalty matrix is out the window at its first real test. Any credibility for the NCAA is totally gone.

[Uncivilengineer]

35 schollies.
2 year bowl ban.
8 year show cause for Frezzus.

[DeviousDawg]

24 over 3? Come onnnn man....

I'd put the o/u on schollies at 35ish. Barney has his finger on the death penalty button... has he pushed it? We will see soon enough, but you better believe that he has the ability to shut the program down if he so pleases. Ole Miss's dumbest move, and there have been a boatload of them, was turning their back on Barney while throwing him under the bus. Remember, Barney's lawyer was just quoted saying that OM is facing "death penalty like sanctions".

24 over 3 is nowhere near death penalty like sanctions. OM would take 24 over 3 right this second then throw a shirtless party at the Library before passing out backpacks full of cash and tacos to any recruit that comes to the late night party at the Tuohy's suite in the Inn at Ole Miss.

[Homedawg]

All Coaches will receive a show cause 8 to 10+ years...
Would love to see freezus with a show cause of 10+ years and a never coach again...
40 Scholorships
3 bowl bans
5 - 10 years probation....
Retractions of ALL wins since Feezus went to OM the 1st time....
Is this a wish list? Every coach isn't getting a 8-10 year show cause. Not even close. But dreaming is good.

[Homedawg]

Has any viewed a copy of freezus contract? Will a "show cause" get Om out of paying off his buy out? I have heard that Freezus is going to stick it to OM....

Yea he can be fired w cause. But they don't need a show cause to not have to pay the buyout.

[Mimi's Babies]

Yea he can be fired w cause. But they don't need a show cause to not have to pay the buyout.

I understand that freezus plans to STICK them if they try to fire him... I know that this state is a right to work state... But they have a contract... and the fools extended his...

[WSOPdawg]

If that's all they get then the new much ballyhooed new penalty matrix is out the window at its first real test. Any credibility for the NCAA is totally gone.


24 over 3? Come onnnn man....

I'd put the o/u on schollies at 35ish. Barney has his finger on the death penalty button... has he pushed it? We will see soon enough, but you better believe that he has the ability to shut the program down if he so pleases. Ole Miss's dumbest move, and there have been a boatload of them, was turning their back on Barney while throwing him under the bus. Remember, Barney's lawyer was just quoted saying that OM is facing "death penalty like sanctions".

24 over 3 is nowhere near death penalty like sanctions. OM would take 24 over 3 right this second then throw a shirtless party at the Library before passing out backpacks full of cash and tacos to any recruit that comes to the late night party at the Tuohy's suite in the Inn at Ole Miss.

True dat, Liverpool. That's why I'm gonna take the over Devious, and I'm thinking closer to 40-45 scholarships lost over 4 years. But I'm still thinking we're closer to the DP than at any time since SMU, primarily because TCUN has gotten caught several times in the last two recruiting cycles and has pissed the NCAA off big time!

[Reason2succeed]

There is a penalty matrix so the COI is no longer just "deciding" on penalties arbitrarily so your predictions should be based on this.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Att2_Penalty%2BGuideline%2BMatrix%2B%28Version%2B6 %29_101212.pdf

[gravedigger]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.

2 yr bowl ban
4 yr probation
36 scholarships
Freeze show cause 2 years
Bjork show cause 4 years
Major reduction in visits and benefits
At LEAST 3-4 boosters dissociated for 4 years.

Om can reduce scholarships if they fire freeze. Down to 30.

[Reason2succeed]

There is a penalty matrix so the COI is no longer just "deciding" on penalties arbitrarily so your predictions should be based on this.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Att2_Penalty%2BGuideline%2BMatrix%2B%28Version%2B6 %29_101212.pdf


Someone with much more time on their hands than me could take the penalty matrix and give a lowest possible with all penalties done as mitigating, a middle with all at standard, and a max with all penalties as aggravated.

When you begin looking at where it takes you one quickly comes to the same conclusion as Barney's lawyer that it would likely be easier on OM to jut shut their program down for two years than to have 8 years of bowl ban and all the scholarships reduced.

[Dolphus Raymond]

Several months ago, someone did use the penalty matrix formula and I think it ended up being like 50-60 scholarships lost. If it is that Draconian, Ole Miss would be better off just taking a one year death penalty, releasing all their players and starting from scratch.

[DawgHouseUnited]

Several months ago, someone did use the penalty matrix formula and I think it ended up being like 50-60 scholarships lost if it is that Draconian, Ole Miss would be better off just taking a one year death penalty, releasing all their players and starting from scratch.

DeviousDawg34 did a really well thought out listing, but it's buried. I still have one of his threads up on my tablet. Sorry for the cut and paste Url, but I'm on my tablet.

http://www.elitedawgs.com/showthread.php?53477-If-it-s-not-the-Death-Penalty-it-will-be-the-worst-penalties-assessed-ever-since

[Mimi's Babies]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.

Preahermatt83.... According to the penalty guidelines your guess would be the very least Om would be awarded for their sins..... :o

HC restrictions- freezus 30% games suspension (haha)
Show cause for mitigation is 1 year each (we know that will not wash)
The Financial Penalties we know OM has returned 7.8 M to the bowl commission The other financial penalties are hard to compute without the OM budget. Min. $5,000.00 plus 1% of the total sport program budget.
Recruiting visits -- is based on previous year....

I will say it again, OM may wish they had received the DP....

[bdfan09]

The m*****f***** is gone! Old Mrs. will be obliterated from the planet! There will not be enough players on scholarship to field a team for the next 5 years. They are done!

[gravedigger]

The m*****f***** is gone! Old Mrs. will be obliterated from the planet! There will not be enough players on scholarship to field a team for the next 5 years. They are done!

Funny you say it that way. That is precisely the way smu decided to self impose the dp.

They could have played, but the sanctions would have been dangerous for the remaining players bc of a he players that transferred.

I think the NCAA really imposes just enough to allow for the attrition of the entire team.

[confucius say]

It's funny that they could lose the equivalent of a while signing class, 2 bowls, and their head coach and half this board will be griping. Manage expectations people.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.

The first NOA warrants this....

[BulldogBear]

DP

I'll be surprised a little if not actually

[DancingRabbit]

It's a moving target. They won't stop cheating long enough for us to tally up the penalties.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/NQiwvr5RrzU6YBfDXJ91TDpukJU=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6999295/FreezeNCAAArrest.jpg

[preachermatt83]

It's funny that they could lose the equivalent of a while signing class, 2 bowls, and their head coach and half this board will be griping. Manage expectations people.

My point exactly. The sanctions I mentioned are program crippling. Anything above that is gravy.

[yjnkdawg]

Has any viewed a copy of freezus contract? Will a "show cause" get Om out of paying off his buy out? I have heard that Freezus is going to stick it to OM....


A show cause would definitely do it. I believe it is if any NCAA violations committed by Freeze will get them out of the buyout, because that shoudl justify cause for termination. So when the COI rules and Freeze is levied with NCAA violatuions, then OM could fire him with no buyout. Not sure they go that route though, because he may still know where some unmarked bodies are still buried.

[Bully13]

It's a moving target. They won't stop cheating long enough for us to tally up the penalties.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/NQiwvr5RrzU6YBfDXJ91TDpukJU=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6999295/FreezeNCAAArrest.jpg

This pic is pure gold. Needs to be saved for judgment day.

[blacklistedbully]

If you go by the matrix... a thing that is not supposed to be optional or arbitrary...you are talking about at least 15 Level 1 violations, perhaps a couple reduced to Mitigated, but also at least a couple increased to Aggravated.

So let's just say we average it out to 15 level 1's, standard. The matrix calls for 1-2 years bowl ban for each one. Technically speaking that's 15-30 years! Don't see how they could actually impose that. The matrix includes the phrase, "Competition penalties may be used singularly or in combination". I'm guessing that means the same as being able to sentence a convict "concurrently", meaning they could limit the total number of years. But how much less could they go?

The matrix also stipulates scholarship reductions of 12.5-to-25% per level 1. The NCAA allows 25 per year, subject to a maximum of 85 at any given time for a team not under penalty. My math says that's a total of approximately 3-6 per year per Level 1 violation, for a total of 45-90 total scholarships! I see nothing in the matrix that allows for any deviation. It looks like the only remedy is for UNM to convince the COI a huge chunk of these Level 1's should be greatly reduced or dismissed.

In case the scholarship reduction percentage is supposed to be taken against the max total of 85, you're looking at 11-21 reduced scholarships per Level 1...which would then be 165 - 330 for 15 level 1's. But I suspect it's the former.

But how does the NCAA actually handle this? How do you take away as many scholarships as the matrix appears to call for in this case...extending the years? But how many years can you extend, say 17 scholarships a year before the Dp is better? Mathematically, if it's 45-90 and we go for the middle, that's about 68, so it looks like they'd have to take 17 away per year for 4 years.

Then how do you handle the bowl ban? Just can't see how they could impose 15 years. Again, DP would be much better.

I realize this sounds steep, but it's not even considering a couple of Level 2's and some level 3's that are required to be considered. Now consider...by the stipulation of the matrix, it could technically be even worse.

It does seem to make a real case for the DP, as the way the matrix is set up, the maximum punishment would be worse than a 2 year DP.

[ShotgunDawg]

If you go by the matrix... a thing that is not supposed to be optional or arbitrary...you are talking about at least 15 Level 1 violations, perhaps a couple reduced to Mitigated, but also at least a couple increased to Aggravated.

So let's just say we average it out to 15 level 1's, standard. The matrix calls for 1-2 years bowl ban for each one. Technically speaking that's 15-30 years! Don't see how they could actually impose that. The matrix includes the phrase, "Competition penalties may be used singularly or in combination". I'm guessing that means the same as being able to sentence a convict "concurrently", meaning they could limit the total number of years. But how much less could they go?

The matrix also stipulates scholarship reductions of 12.5-to-25% per level 1. The NCAA allows 25 per year, subject to a maximum of 85 at any given time for a team not under penalty. My math says that's a total of approximately 3-6 per year per Level 1 violation, for a total of 45-90 total scholarships per year! I see nothing in the matrix that allows for any deviation. It looks like the only remedy is for UNM to convince the COI a huge chunk of these Level 1's should be greatly reduced or dismissed.

Editing this in case the scholarship reduction percentage is supposed to be taken against max total of 85, in which case, you're looking at 11-21 reduced scholarships per Level 1...which would then be 165 - 330 for 15 level 1's.

But how does the NCAA actually handle this? How do you take away as many scholarships as the matrix appears to call for in this case...extending the years? But how many years can you extend, say 15 scholarships a year before the Dp is better? Mathematically, it looks like they'd have to take 15 away per year for at least 11 years to meet the matrix minimum.

Then how do you handle the bowl ban? Just can't see how they could impose 15 years. Again, DP would be much better.

I realize this sounds steep, but it's not even considering a couple of Level 2's and some level 3's that are required to be considered. Now consider...by the stipulation of the matrix, it could technically be even worse.

No way that's gonna happen, but it does seem to make a real case for the DP, as the way the matrix is set up, the maximum punishment would be worse than a 2-3 year DP.

Great breakdown.

What people need to realize is that we are SUPPOSED TO BE in a new era of NCAA infractions due to the penalty matrix.

This is the first large case under the new matrix, so what happens?

Is the NCAA going to abide by the matrix?

Will the NCAA mitigate numerous penalties to make the punishment fit?

Or will the NCAA just give the death penalty and eliminate the necessity of having to abide by the matrix?

These are real questions. I don't think OM gets the death penalty, but, the alternative could be argued is worse than the death penalty?

Will the NCAA look for a way out?

These are real questions

[Reason2succeed]

It's funny that they could lose the equivalent of a while signing class, 2 bowls, and their head coach and half this board will be griping. Manage expectations people.

Manage expectations also sounds like a slogan for losers in life. If Mullen decided to "manage expectations" we'd be pissed.

What's the risk? That OM fans are going to laugh at us after their program is decimated?!? You are worried about the opinion of people whose opinions don't matter. Their cooked!!! Read the matrix.

Great breakdown Black. This is what I've been SCREAMING for over a year. DP would be the most merciful thing the NCAA could do without destroying their credibility.

[blacklistedbully]

Manage expectations also sounds like a slogan for losers in life. If Mullen decided to "manage expectations" we'd be pissed.

What's the risk? That OM fans are going to laugh at us after their program is decimated?!? You are worried about the opinion of people whose opinions don't matter. Their cooked!!! Read the matrix.

Great breakdown Black. This is what I've been SCREAMING for over a year. DP would be the most merciful thing the NCAA could do without destroying their credibility.

Only other thing I can think of at the moment is if the new penalty matrix means the 25% reduction is only against the 25 per year allowed, and only applied to 1 year per violation.

If that's the case, the 25% of 25 is about 6 scholarships lost per violation. If they applied 2 level one violations per year + the level 2's mixed in for good measure, that would mean about 13 scholarships lost every year for 7 years.

Let's say their lawyers are phenomenally successful, and get a third of the Level 1's reduced to Level 2's. The resulting penalties would still be the most devastating since SMU, and much worse than what USC got.

They are in big, big trouble.

[Reason2succeed]

Funny you say it that way. That is precisely the way smu decided to self impose the dp.

Eventually some adults will take over at OM and realize they can't trust Bjork and Freeze to do what's in the best interest of the university. As bad as it looks I would argue it is better to take one or two years off than to be decimated for 10 years. I don't think many people are realizing how bad the fallout could be from this many sanctions. Yes, DP is almost unprecedented but so are the number of infractions.

They could have played, but the sanctions would have been dangerous for the remaining players bc of a he players that transferred.

Freeze is already in spin mode talking about post season bans because as soon as sanctions come down his desk (in the unlikely event that he is still employed) will be swamped with transfer requests. Who wants to spend their entire collegiate career on probation with no chance at a postseason? With the number of scholarship reductions that the matrix calls for it would be dangerous to field a team. Players would almost have to play both ways on offense, defense and special teams and the players they will have will already be below the actual talent level of the rest of the SEC.



I think the NCAA really imposes just enough to allow for the attrition of the entire team.

But how do they do this without losing credibility? If the NCAA lightens the penalty then the playbook for every team under investigation will be to cheat enough to make it worth it knowing that the NCAA will reach a point that they are afraid to punish. I believe that Mark Emmert will call a press Conference and remind everyone that collegiate sports is a privilege not a right. OM operated with a false sense of entitlement and now that privilege will be taken away for a short period of time so that they can reorganize their football program the right way.



There has never been a time when the NCAA needed to show their strength more than now. After the Penn State scandal, the Baylor scandal, UNC, Miami, USC, and the Louisville scandal the NCAA needs to send a powerful message to stop the corruption in collegiate athletics or they willlose all control and credibility. OM has put themselves in position to be the example.

[Mimi's Babies]

Don't forget David Saunders and his 3 stints at OM....

http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/story/sports/college/football/2017/05/16/saunders-out-prcc-football-coach/326010001/

The NCAA Committee on Infractions found Saunders helped five recruits receive fraudulent ACT scores at Wayne County High, lied to the NCAA about his involvement and failed to cooperate with an investigation. He also gave a total of $6,500 to a player over two semesters while at Louisiana-Lafayette, the committee said.Saunders received an eight-year show-cause, which requires an NCAA institution that intends to hire him before Jan. 11, 2024 to argue before a panel why he should be hired without restriction. He joined Louisiana-Lafayette?s coaching staff in January 2011 after his third stint at Ole Miss.

Ole Miss became linked to the investigation when NCAA enforcement staff interviewed Saunders on Dec. 16, 2013 about ?events that took place while that assistant was employed? elsewhere, according to the Committee on Infractions? report, which added a football player ?that institution recruited? was also part of the interview. (NCAA was already at OM)

?During the interviews, the enforcement staff believed the former assistant football coach may have known of or may have been involved in NCAA rules violations concerning academic issues while at another member institution,? the Committee on Infractions? report read.
After reading this article I would have several questions as to where some of the OM players took their ACT test. Lets not leave out the Education Center....

Where are all the former Om coaches and ath. department employees now.....

[FISHDAWG]

I hear what you're saying and agree ... I didn't even see the DP option listed on the matrix

[1bigdawg]

I hear what you're saying and agree ... I didn't even see the DP option listed on the matrix

The question is, if the matrix indicates a larger scholarship reduction than is possible, then does that mean they have little choice than the death penalty?

UNM will take any penalty that is not the DP, because the DP would possibly get them kicked out of the SEC.

[Reason2succeed]

The question is, if the matrix indicates a larger scholarship reduction than is possible, then does that mean they have little choice than the death penalty?

UNM will take any penalty that is not the DP, because the DP would possibly get them kicked out of the SEC.

Will the SEC tolerate OM playing at SWAC level for ten years?

[ShotgunDawg]

I will be fascinating to see how the COI tallies up the sanctions.

In the past, they just kind of handed down an agreed upon amount that "seemed reasonable" per the violations.

However new matrix should make the deciding upon sanctions more like checking out at the super market.

$2.50 for eggs
$1.50 for break
$2.50 for bread

It should be a much more intemized, objective process. With 21 level 1 violations, that's a disaster for OM.

[1bigdawg]

Will the SEC tolerate OM playing at SWAC level for ten years?

I don't believe they get kicked out of the SEC for anything less than the DP. The DP gives the SEC an excuse; "We have to have another team to play so we are dropping UNM and adding NC State, Oklahoma, etc."

If they are just playing horrible because of lost schollys, then they stay. On top of everything else, the conference won't want to set a precedent of kicking someone out over probation.

[FISHDAWG]

Will the SEC tolerate OM playing at SWAC level for ten years?

Vandy has been playing at that level forever

[spbdawg]

#

[sandwolf]

But isn't it 49ish Level I Violations plus some number of Level I Violations from amended noa....so it's the matrix penalty times this number of penalties.No. It is 15 level 1's and then 6 lower level violations. Each violation may have a bunch of individual violations listed under it, but those just add up to a single level one.

[QuadrupleOption]

No. It is 15 level 1's and then 6 lower level violations. Each violation may have a bunch of individual violations listed under it, but those just add up to a single level one.

A standard Level I violation penalty:

1 year postseason ban
Fine of $5000 + 3% of total budget
12.5% scholarship reduction
2 year show cause for any coach named (per violation they are named)
2 year probation

So the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM ON JUST THE 15 LEVEL ONE VIOLATIONS:
15 year postseason ban
$40,575,000 in fines
187.5% scholarship reduction
4 year show cause for Freeze
30 years of probation

Source: https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/f...B6)_101212.pdf

[turkish]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.
That would be the biggest win in the history of that athletic department, past or future.

[ShotgunDawg]

A standard Level I violation penalty:

1 year postseason ban
Fine of $5000 + 3% of total budget
12.5% scholarship reduction
2 year show cause for any coach named (per violation they are named)
2 year probation

So the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM ON JUST THE 15 LEVEL ONE VIOLATIONS:
15 year postseason ban
$40,575,000 in fines
187.5% scholarship reduction
4 year show cause for Freeze
30 years of probation

Source: https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/f...B6)_101212.pdf

This. The NCAA has a real pickle here.

It's like they didn't think through their matrix or didn't believe someone would actually cheat at this level.

Eitherway, this is a landmark Carr that could set NCAA precedent for 20 years.

It will be picked a part.

[turkish]

A standard Level I violation penalty:

1 year postseason ban
Fine of $5000 + 3% of total budget
12.5% scholarship reduction
2 year show cause for any coach named (per violation they are named)
2 year probation

So the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM ON JUST THE 15 LEVEL ONE VIOLATIONS:
15 year postseason ban
$40,575,000 in fines
187.5% scholarship reduction
4 year show cause for Freeze
30 years of probation

Source: https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/f...B6)_101212.pdf
But that is for aggravated, right? Seemed like mitigated was much milder.

And that link is dead.

[sandwolf]

A standard Level I violation penalty:

1 year postseason ban
Fine of $5000 + 3% of total budget
12.5% scholarship reduction
2 year show cause for any coach named (per violation they are named)
2 year probation

So the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM ON JUST THE 15 LEVEL ONE VIOLATIONS:
15 year postseason ban
$40,575,000 in fines
187.5% scholarship reduction
4 year show cause for Freeze
30 years of probation

Source: https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/f...B6)_101212.pdfYea, I know what the penalty matrix shows, but there's just no way the NCAA actually imposes those type of sanctions...it will definitely be interesting to see how they handle it.

[ShotgunDawg]

Yea, I know what the penalty matrix shows, but there's just no way the NCAA actually imposes those type of sanctions...it will definitely be interesting to see how they handle it.

Then why have the matrix. Again, they are setting precedent

[Perpetual Underachiever]

There is no way the NCAA doesn't end up looking foolish. They cannot use their own matrix, because that would literally shut down OM's football program. So no matter the verdict, they will be hypocrites for not imposing their own specific matrix for punishments.

Matrix Link:
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/matrix.pdf

[blacklistedbully]

A standard Level I violation penalty:

1 year postseason ban
Fine of $5000 + 3% of total budget $5000 + 1 to 3%
12.5% scholarship reduction 12.5 to 25%
2 year show cause for any coach named (per violation they are named) 2 to 5 years
2 year probation 2 to 6 years

So the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM ON JUST THE 15 LEVEL ONE VIOLATIONS:
15 year postseason ban
$40,575,000 in fines
187.5% scholarship reduction
4 year show cause for Freeze
30 years of probation

Source: https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/f...B6)_101212.pdf

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Att2_Penalty%2BGuideline%2BMatrix%2B%28Version%2B6 %29_101212.pdf

[Dawgowar]

Then why have the matrix. Again, they are setting precedent

Correct. And both volume of infractions, level of in fractions, and involvement of staff in infractions are overwhelming. If the matrix is not applied properly then the NCAA will continue it's death march to irrelevancy. They can't let that happen after the Miami case destroyed their credibility. If they blow this and UNC - forget anyone even attempting to play by the rules EVER.

This is why I agree with Spider = the save Freeze at all cost approach is their only option (as a tactic, not a prediction for all the skim readers). They can't argue the infractions. The shit happened. They can try to lessen the blow by tossing others under the bus. If this had stopped at 10 allegations that night have worked. Under those conditions maybe Freeze just gets suspended. That they are still spinning it as a possibility tells me they have nothing else to fall back on. Their base is starting to wake up to the severity of what's coming. Not going to be fun for those who put them in this position.

[TUSK]

I'll play the O/U:
Years 3.5
Skollies 31
Bowl ban 2

And Santa Clauses for erbody!

[Mimi's Babies]

I told you -- OM should just take the death penalty.... and close the football team down... :confused:

Dawgowar _ IF Om had stopped the recruiting violations with the signing class of 2016.... The penalties would have been much less.. Instead that bunch continues to cheat.

[QuadrupleOption]

But that is for aggravated, right? Seemed like mitigated was much milder.

And that link is dead.

No. That's STANDARD. With MINIMUM penalties per violation. You don't even wanna see what 15 Aggravated Level 1's will get you.

Found a new link: https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Att2_Penalty%2BGuideline%2BMatrix%2B%28Version%2B6 %29_101212.pdf

Edit: Which is the same as the old link but I copied the previous post from another one and it didn't translate properly.

[Reason2succeed]

There is no way the NCAA doesn't end up looking foolish. They cannot use their own matrix, because that would literally shut down OM's football program. So no matter the verdict, they will be hypocrites for not imposing their own specific matrix for punishments.

Matrix Link:
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/matrix.pdf

The only way that the NCAA doesn't look foolish is by "allowing" OM to "self impose" a one or two year death penalty. While everyone thinks this is so nuclear UAB is restarting their program this year after about two years off. Hell, OM will do a PR stunt, throw a party, and get an ESPN special on "the return of OM Football" like they are coming back from doing something valiant.

People forget that there were other circumstances that caused the major damage to SMU. Their entire conference collapsed (which will not happen with the SEC) and they got dropped. Also, their already small inner city fanbase basically abandoned their athletic program. As much as I hate Rebels I think they have more commitment than SMU fans did.

[ShotgunDawg]

I'll play the O/U:
Years 3.5
Skollies 31
Bowl ban 2

And Santa Clauses for erbody!

Tusk, not saying wrong but your guess is based your opinion of what's reasonable and not on the recent penalty matrix that the NCAA designed.

Objectively, it should end up much worse than this.

[Really Clark?]

Guys. Nowhere in the bylaws or matrix does it state they have to stack the penalties with each violation. In fact it does say they can choose which part of the penalties they may or may not use for punishment. And I can't think of a time they have ever just across board added penalties on top of each other when dealing with multiple infractions. Honestly, the base penalty matrix for the starting point of what they are looking at is Level 1 aggravated and the COI will add or subtract accordingly each subsection. That will probably be the minimum. But nowhere are they required to added each penalty together by the matrix standard for each and every penalty. The Fraud and LOIC (especially since that is usually an aggravated offense) will be the starting point of the penalties more than likely then adjust upward from there. The coaches penalty matrix is considered separately from the school as well.

[Dawgowar]

Anything slightly equal or north of USCw and I am happy. Based on all the other decisions I have read several coaches will get an SC. If you look at the cases this past year the COI hands them out pretty regularly for far less.

[preachermatt83]

Guys. Nowhere in the bylaws or matrix does it state they have to stack the penalties with each violation. In fact it does say they can choose which part of the penalties they may or may not use for punishment. And I can't think of a time they have ever just across board added penalties on top of each other when dealing with multiple infractions. Honestly, the base penalty matrix for the starting point of what they are looking at is Level 1 aggravated and the COI will add or subtract accordingly each subsection. That will probably be the minimum. But nowhere are they required to added each penalty together by the matrix standard for each and every penalty. The Fraud and LOIC (especially since that is usually an aggravated offense) will be the starting point of the penalties more than likely then adjust upward from there. The coaches penalty matrix is considered separately from the school as well.

Yup! Ppl just dont get this for some reason.

[lamont]

they are going to get north of USC penalties. How far? Who knows

[Indndawg]

Save Face Option for Both

NCAA Offers:

A 3 Year DP and substantial penalties after DP is done

or

Full weight of the calculated penalties per matrix

[Reason2succeed]

Guys. Nowhere in the bylaws or matrix does it state they have to stack the penalties with each violation. In fact it does say they can choose which part of the penalties they may or may not use for punishment. And I can't think of a time they have ever just across board added penalties on top of each other when dealing with multiple infractions. Honestly, the base penalty matrix for the starting point of what they are looking at is Level 1 aggravated and the COI will add or subtract accordingly each subsection. That will probably be the minimum. But nowhere are they required to added each penalty together by the matrix standard for each and every penalty. The Fraud and LOIC (especially since that is usually an aggravated offense) will be the starting point of the penalties more than likely then adjust upward from there. The coaches penalty matrix is considered separately from the school as well.

In that case OM is validated in continuing to cheat. If there is no additional penalties then the smartest thing to do is just make sure it is worth it. Once again the NCAA comes out looking toothless and irrelevant. After all the issues at Penn State, Baylor, and Louisville the national media will slaughter the NCAA. I understand exactly what you are saying but I disagree.

[WSOPdawg]

There is no way the NCAA doesn't end up looking foolish. They cannot use their own matrix, because that would literally shut down OM's football program. So no matter the verdict, they will be hypocrites for not imposing their own specific matrix for punishments.

Matrix Link:
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/matrix.pdf

TCUN can still field a team without scholarship players - but everybody know they won't be competitive enough to beat Alcorn St. Just remember, TCUN did this to themselves and now they have to answer to the judge, jury and executioner (the NCAA) as rules are established which all NCAA participants agree to play by on the field of play -- TCUN just chose poorly and they will pay dearly imo.

[Dawgology]

32 over 4
2 year bowl ban
5 years probabtion
Bucky gets the show cause

[WSOPdawg]

I'm thinking (at a minimum)
north of 40 schollies over 4 years
3 year bowl ban
5 years probation
show causes MANY TCUN coaches including Freezus (and he never coaches again in Division I)

BUT NOT ANNOUNCED UNTIL LATE-NOVEMBER OR EARLY JANUARY 2018.

[Really Clark?]

In that case OM is validated in continuing to cheat. If there is no additional penalties then the smartest thing to do is just make sure it is worth it. Once again the NCAA comes out looking toothless and irrelevant. After all the issues at Penn State, Baylor, and Louisville the national media will slaughter the NCAA. I understand exactly what you are saying but I disagree.

One Level 1 aggravated penalty is pretty bad just by itself. And I think the min of that matrix is the starting point of their penalties. Remember that is a min of 6 years probation, 25% scholarship reduction, 2 year postseason ban (which will allow transfers which adds to the total scholarship numbers lost), significant financial penalties, greatly reduces recruiting time, unofficial visits, etc. That's the starting point that I believe they are looking at. The COI will adjust from that in certain sections. But I don't see the COI going over the max for one Level 1 aggravated. That's 10 years probation, 50% scholarship reduction, 4 years postseason ban, etc.

[Mimi's Babies]

Anything slightly equal or north of USCw and I am happy. Based on all the other decisions I have read several coaches will get an SC. If you look at the cases this past year the COI hands them out pretty regularly for far less.

David Saunders received 8 years show cause for his roll in the 5 accounts of ACT Fraud..... Look him up...

[Mimi's Babies]

One Level 1 aggravated penalty is pretty bad just by itself. And I think the min of that matrix is the starting point of their penalties. Remember that is a min of 6 years probation, 25% scholarship reduction, 2 year postseason ban (which will allow transfers which adds to the total scholarship numbers lost), significant financial penalties, greatly reduces recruiting time, unofficial visits, etc. That's the starting point that I believe they are looking at. The COI will adjust from that in certain sections. But I don't see the COI going over the max for one Level 1 aggravated. That's 10 years probation, 50% scholarship reduction, 4 years postseason ban, etc.

I may have over looked this but.... I will ask Really Clark? I did not see the penalties matrix of the recruits who lied or excepted the bribes of the school, boosters, hookers, and coaches. Is there a martix for this?

[Really Clark?]

I may have over looked this but.... I will ask Really Clark? I did not see the penalties matrix of the recruits who lied or excepted the bribes of the school, boosters, hookers, and coaches. Is there a martix for this?

No. That would be under student athlete eligibility and that is handled outside of the COI penalty phase. Tunsil and Hampton sitting out a few years ago because of those violations were taken care of before the investigation was completed. As soon as they discover a violation that jeopardizes a student athletes eligibility, it has to be handled immediately. It doesn't wait for the COI penalty meeting. Normally this is in the form of suspensions, community service, repayment structure of impermissible benefits, etc.

[Mimi's Babies]

No. That would be under student athlete eligibility and that is handled outside of the COI penalty phase. Tunsil and Hampton sitting out a few years ago because of those violations were taken care of before the investigation was completed. As soon as they discover a violation that jeopardizes a student athletes eligibility, it has to be handled immediately. It doesn't wait for the COI penalty meeting. Normally this is in the form of suspensions, community service, repayment structure of impermissible benefits, etc.

So I know for a fact of at least one student who excepted benefits from OM and signed with OM.... Will the father that sold this child be expected to pay back this money?
I cannot even imagine.....

[BeardoMSU]

David Saunders received 8 years show cause for his roll in the 5 accounts of ACT Fraud..... Look him up...

Yeah, but Saunders lied to the NCAA, Freeze just quoted some Bible verses**

[yjnkdawg]

Yeah, but Saunders lied to the NCAA, Freeze just quoted some Bible verses**


But Freeze, as the HC, is responsible for any violations that have occurred during his tenure as HC, even though he may not.....hmmmm have been privy too, or orchestrated the whole thing.

[PassInterference]

Pain.

[Really Clark?]

So I know for a fact of at least one student who excepted benefits from OM and signed with OM.... Will the father that sold this child be expected to pay back this money?
I cannot even imagine.....

Did they get caught? Was the player suspended? If no, then there was no violation discovered and nothing will happen. Think about Scarbourgh, he had a 4 game suspension and paid back monies. If you don't see a suspension, more than likely there is not enough evidence of a violation or the total monetary amount of the impermissible benefit was small and just paying it back was enough.

[Mimi's Babies]

But Freeze, as the HC, is responsible for any violations that have occurred during his tenure as HC, even though he may not.....hmmmm have been privy too, or orchestrated the whole thing.


Yeah, but Saunders lied to the NCAA, Freeze just quoted some Bible verses**

I agree with both of you..... I believe that Freezus could not tell the truth if he wanted too.... The NCAA has not caught him in the lies.... YET.
Will he agree that He was in a home with at least one booster? On how many different occasions? Will he agree that he knew about the burner phones and who supplied the phones?
So I will quote a Bible verse.....
Exodus 20: 14-15
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.

Leviticus 19:11 "'Do not steal. "'Do not lie. "'Do not deceive one another.

The HC is responsible for His entire staff.... He should have kept the staff as Very Close Friends.....

[Really Clark?]

But Freeze, as the HC, is responsible for any violations that have occurred during his tenure as HC, even though he may not.....hmmmm have been privy too, or orchestrated the whole thing.

Not quite. The head coach is responsible for creating an atmosphere of compliance and monitor the activities of the staff that report directly or indirectly to him. That is not the same as responsible for any violations that his staff may have committed. What the NCAA wanted to remove was the "I didn't know what was happening" defense for all cases, although it could still be valid with a one time offense or just one rouge staffer. It won't work with multiple infractions by a staff. The presumption at that point is that the HC should have known there was a problem by monitoring or he wasn't really trying to promote an atmosphere of compliance.

[BeardoMSU]

Y'all must have missed my use of these "**".....perhaps I should have used the appropriate amount (i.e., ************************************************** **********), then my sarcasm wouldn't have as subtle, lol.

[TUSK]

Tusk, not saying wrong but your guess is based your opinion of what's reasonable and not on the recent penalty matrix that the NCAA designed.

Objectively, it should end up much worse than this.

That's correct, buddy... My O/U is my "bet", per se.... not what should happen or what current legislation calls for, etc...

Additionally, I think UM would recover FASTER from the DP than they would from paralytic sanctions....

[sandwolf]

In that case OM is validated in continuing to cheat. If there is no additional penalties then the smartest thing to do is just make sure it is worth it. Once again the NCAA comes out looking toothless and irrelevant. After all the issues at Penn State, Baylor, and Louisville the national media will slaughter the NCAA. I understand exactly what you are saying but I disagree.The NCAA can hammer OM to the point that it isn't worth it for them or anyone else to get this far out of line without giving them the death penalty or the crazy sanctions that would result from adding up each individual violations' penalties from the matrix. If they hit them with 30+ scholarships, a 2-3 year bowl ban and 6-10 years of probation (meaning they are under a microscope for that time and are forced to recruit within the rules), they will become a doormat for every bit of a decade......anything at that level or worse will be a huge win for us and a huge loss for them. So when they don't get the death penalty (and they won't, there's just too much money involved), don't come back here starting a bunch of threads about how they got off easy, giving them some sense of victory....take the win, talk about how they are going to be a joke for the foreseeable future and talk about the opportunity we have to elevate our program

[Reason2succeed]

The NCAA can hammer OM to the point that it isn't worth it for them or anyone else to get this far out of line without giving them the death penalty or the crazy sanctions that would result from adding up each individual violations' penalties from the matrix. If they hit them with 30+ scholarships, a 2-3 year bowl ban and 6-10 years of probation (meaning they are under a microscope for that time and are forced to recruit within the rules), they will become a doormat for every bit of a decade......anything at that level or worse will be a huge win for us and a huge loss for them. So when they don't get the death penalty (and they won't, there's just too much money involved), don't come back here starting a bunch of threads about how they got off easy, giving them some sense of victory....take the win, talk about how they are going to be a joke for the foreseeable future and talk about the opportunity we have to elevate our program

I hear you. But if they get what you described what I will say is that OM was smart to continue cheating since there is obviously a max penalty that the NCAA is willing to drop.

I would then expect many programs to make sure that if they are cheating to make sure that they make it worth it. Why only rob one bank when you can rob ten banks and you still won't get life in prison?

[DownwardDawg]

I hear you. But if they get what you described what I will say is that OM was smart to continue cheating since there is obviously a max penalty that the NCAA is willing to drop.

I would then expect many programs to make sure that if they are cheating to make sure that they make it worth it. Why only rob one bank when you can rob ten banks and you still won't get life in prison?

No way. A 2 year bowl ban, which allows players to transfer, plus a 30 or more scholarship loss is program crippling in the SEC. Absolutely crippling. They will become everyone's homecoming opponent for the next 10 years or more. USC still hasn't recovered and they are light years above ole miss. I expect a 3 year bowl ban and close to 40 scholly's lost. They may never be competitive again. Plus, what did all that cheating get them? They still haven't played in the SEC CH and they finished ahead of us 1 time!!! ONE!!!!

[Really Clark?]

I hear you. But if they get what you described what I will say is that OM was smart to continue cheating since there is obviously a max penalty that the NCAA is willing to drop.

I would then expect many programs to make sure that if they are cheating to make sure that they make it worth it. Why only rob one bank when you can rob ten banks and you still won't get life in prison?

I think you are really underselling those penalties. But even if you think that that is light and it is worth it to continue cheating, you understand that they would be under repeat offender and the death penalty would definitely be on the table if caught again with any major infractions. I mean they are so good at cheating and keeping it hid and not pissing off other schools that this NOA is only one of the largest in history. And now they have to keep their nose clean for several years or they will extend their probation and multiple major infractions again during their probation period would be the first major case since SMU that will give the NCAA a legitimate chance to go nuclear

[Dolphus Raymond]

"Take the win." Well said Sandwolf.
Anything over 30 over 4 and a 2 year bowl ban is A HUGE BLOWOUT WIN. In the hyper-competitive SEC, it will take a mid-tier school like Ole Miss at least a decade to begin to recover. I made my prediction of 32 over 4, 2 year bowl ban (may up that to 3 but will stick for now.) and I'll take that all day.
"Take the win."

[spbdawg]

#

[Really Clark?]

I think we all need clarification of what has happened so far:

The 2016 noa had 14 Level I Allegations supported by nearly 50 unique Level I Violations. For instance The ACT fraud was one Level I Allegation which was broken three times....so that's technically three Level I Violations not one....so they each will/could be applied against the penalty matrix.

The 2017 noa has an additional 7 Level I Allegations with an unknown number of unique Level I Violations.

The penalty matrix is applied against violations not allegations.

Ole Miss is already under the repeat offender window and any additional Violations post Oct 2016 could trigger the death penalty.

If any of the above is substantially wrong please feel free to tell me which and how.

Yeah that's not correct. An individual violation only helps determine what Level an infraction will be alleged. Under the infraction you have some violations that in themselves would only be a Level III or less. You can have enough minor violations under one like infraction that it can rise to a Level 1 infraction. You take As a whole similar violations under that infraction or the violations concerning one person, that is what determines what Level the entire infraction is alleged to be. And no where in the bylaws, matrix, or case history does it state that each infraction must be added for a grand total of penalties. The individual violations are not even a part of the matrix. The violation or violations only help determine the Level of the infraction. You also don't apply an infraction dealing with an individual to the school either. The ULL case with Saunders had 4 infractions in the case but ULL only had to deal with 1, the other 3 were against Saunders so the matrix was applied but only the sections that dealt with that infraction. There is no lumping, stacking or adding of all penalties under every subsection of the matrix for each infraction. Much less for every individual violation.

[spbdawg]

#

[Political Hack]

33-40 scholarships
3 year bowl ban
Freeze gets a 5+ year show cause.
Bjork and Vitter forced to resign.

[Really Clark?]

Ok. So if 25 instances of ACT fraud were documented under one allegation it would be treated like a single episode against umiss for the purposes of penalties. This doesn't make sense. Multiple infractions should carry multiple penalties.

The number and/or severity of each violation is what determines the Level of the infraction and the sub-Level (aggravated, standard, mitigated). People also seem to forget that a Level 2 aggravated infraction is the same as a Level 1 standard with the penalty matrix. But yes the number of violations definitely play a part in determining the level of the infraction and the severity of that level. Each violation when looked at separately can vary greatly in severity from minor to major. But the matrix was never intended or presented in a way to make people believe that it would be applied for each and every violation. No infractions case has ever been handled that way. At some point you have to stop the penalty application for the infractions or it gets extremely silly. Under your scenario if you applied 25 different Level 1 aggravated infractions because there are 25 violations, then you could put them on probation for 250 years and take away 1,062.5 scholarships. That's a ridiculous penalty proposition.

[spbdawg]

#

[WSOPdawg]

which leads to the argument that if a thief continues to burglarize other peoples' homes while he's waiting on court but he's out on bail, at some point his bail has to be revoked to protect the public. Just because his hearing may be a year or so down the road doesn't mean society has to continue to put up with his thieving ways and act as if his latest law-breaking attempts are excusable.

Because these guys won't stop cheating (even while the investigation is ongoing), the ncaa knows what they gotta do as unpopular as it may be (and I'm talking about the DP).

[spbdawg]

#

[Really Clark?]

Agreed. And that's why everyone agrees the number of violations in this case has stressed the new matrix.

I agree partially but not under your original premise. It was never written with the intent that each separate violation has to be a separate infraction for the penalties. Violations only determine the level of the infraction by the individual or school or both. I agree it's going to strain the matrix to a degree but penalties to a school do not and usually are not applied in conjunction with individual infraction. Only part of the matrix will or could apply per infraction. However the number and/or severity of the infractions dealing with indivuals of the school do directly coorelate to LOIC and Fraud. The number or severity of the infraction that individuals are responsible for Level 1 infractions dealing with impermissible benefits and competitive advantages is what gets a school to LOIC. That is what they don't want.

[WSOPdawg]

Agreed. And that's why everyone agrees the number of violations in this case has stressed the new matrix.

has stressed the new matrix to the point the ncaa NEVER thought could be accomplished. This case will definitely be precedent-setting for the next 25 years imo, and TCUN will not get off light.

Again, I'll say we're closer to the DP than not despite what some of my fellow Bulldogs want to deny.

[Really Clark?]

has stressed the new matrix to the point the ncaa NEVER thought could be accomplished. This case will definitely be precedent-setting for the next 25 years imo, and TCUN will not get off light.

Again, I'll say we're closer to the DP than not despite what some of my fellow Bulldogs want to deny.

They will NOT go against their on legislation concerning the death penalty:

"Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs and
The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.
Penalties for repeat violators of legislation, subject to exemptions authorized by the committee on the basis of specifically stated reasons, may include any of the following:

The prohibition of some or all outside competition in the sport involved in the latest major violation for one or two sport seasons and the prohibition of all coaching staff members in that sport from involvement (directly or indirectly) in any coaching activities at the institution during that period
The elimination of all initial grants-in-aid and recruiting activities in the sport involved in the latest major violation in question for a two-year period.
The requirement that all institutional staff member serving on the NCAA Board of Directors; Leadership, Legislative, Presidents or Management Councils; Executive Committee or other Association governance bodies resign their positions. All institutional representatives shall be ineligible to serve on any NCAA committee for a period of four years and
The requirement that the institution relinquish its Association voting privileges for a four-year period."

To do so against the legislation of the NCAA is opening them up for issues that could be litigated.

[Mimi's Babies]

which leads to the argument that if a thief continues to burglarize other peoples' homes while he's waiting on court but he's out on bail, at some point his bail has to be revoked to protect the public. Just because his hearing may be a year or so down the road doesn't mean society has to continue to put up with his thieving ways and act as if his latest law-breaking attempts are excusable.

Because these guys won't stop cheating (even while the investigation is ongoing), the ncaa knows what they gotta do as unpopular as it may be (and I'm talking about the DP).

It has been proven and reported to the NCAA... In November 2016 and continuing OM coaches and boosters failed to STOP recruiting violations.... JUST STOP...

[blacklistedbully]

The number and/or severity of each violation is what determines the Level of the infraction and the sub-Level (aggravated, standard, mitigated). People also seem to forget that a Level 2 aggravated infraction is the same as a Level 1 standard with the penalty matrix. But yes the number of violations definitely play a part in determining the level of the infraction and the severity of that level. Each violation when looked at separately can vary greatly in severity from minor to major. But the matrix was never intended or presented in a way to make people believe that it would be applied for each and every violation. No infractions case has ever been handled that way. At some point you have to stop the penalty application for the infractions or it gets extremely silly. Under your scenario if you applied 25 different Level 1 aggravated infractions because there are 25 violations, then you could put them on probation for 250 years and take away 1,062.5 scholarships. That's a ridiculous penalty proposition.

While there may not be a specific clause that mandates each violation be penalized per the matrix, I don't think there is a clause that prevents it either.

I don't think anyone is forgetting about what can happen with the L2's (S,M or A), it's just that there are so many L1's that the L2's look like icing-on-the-cake only...not necessary to get UNM the kind of crippling penalties we expect.

No infractions case has ever been handled that way, but we are now operating under a different system, with a school that has cheated on a level perhaps unseen since SMU. This matrix only came into play in 2013.

You talk of 25 L1 aggravated resulting in an absurdly high number of penalties, but you seem to not consider just how bad 25 L1 aggravated violations would be. Well before the NCAA got there, the school would have it's program DP'd, and not just for a couple of years.

IMO, the matrix allows for the COI to use each violation, and the DP is still allowed to handle those cases where the violations are so severe, so numerous, or a combination of both that the matrix penalties exceed the damage caused by the DP.

[spbdawg]

#

[Mimi's Babies]

They've been under the repeat offender clause since the fall.

So, ANY violations After October 2016 would constitute OM becoming labeled as a "repeat offender".

And many recruits, in the signing class of 2017, could have basically caused OM to qualify for the "repeat offender status"....

Jeez, will they ever stop?

[Really Clark?]

While there may not be a specific clause that mandates each violation be penalized per the matrix, I don't think there is a clause that prevents it either.

I don't think anyone is forgetting about what can happen with the L2's (S,M or A), it's just that there are so many L1's that the L2's look like icing-on-the-cake only...not necessary to get UNM the kind of crippling penalties we expect.

No infractions case has ever been handled that way, but we are now operating under a different system, with a school that has cheated on a level perhaps unseen since SMU. This matrix only came into play in 2013.

You talk of 25 L1 aggravated resulting in an absurdly high number of penalties, but you seem to not consider just how bad 25 L1 aggravated violations would be. Well before the NCAA got there, the school would have it's program DP'd, and not just for a couple of years.

IMO, the matrix allows for the COI to use each violation, and the DP is still allowed to handle those cases where the violations are so severe, so numerous, or a combination of both that the matrix penalties exceed the damage caused by the DP.

The matrix is just a guideline like a sentencing guideline. But you have to separate the infractions between individuals and institutional and the part of the matrix that applies. The fraud and LOIC (due to the number and severity of infractions by individuals) are the major infractions that are tied to the school and will carry the bulk of their penalties under the probation, competition ban, scholarship reduction, and financial penalties. Recruiting restrictions, etc. is more fluid but still tied to what the staff did. But the infraction concerning Farrar for example, that Level 1 infraction in itself doesn't use the penalties that apply to the program as a whole. The indivual penalties under the matrix will only apply to the Farrar infraction. However; him, Harris, Kiffin, and head coach responsibility taken together is what is getting them LOIC. They will not take each of those separately to apply program sanctions but the whole is applied to levy Level 1 LOIC against the school. There is a separation of what part of the matrix can be used for what infraction.

[Really Clark?]

They've been under the repeat offender clause since the fall.

That's right. But we have no indication that the revised NOA includes any infractions occurring after that time. Until that happens, death penalty can not be consider by their own legislation

[blacklistedbully]

They will NOT go against their on legislation concerning the death penalty:

"Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs and
The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.
Penalties for repeat violators of legislation, subject to exemptions authorized by the committee on the basis of specifically stated reasons, may include any of the following:

The prohibition of some or all outside competition in the sport involved in the latest major violation for one or two sport seasons and the prohibition of all coaching staff members in that sport from involvement (directly or indirectly) in any coaching activities at the institution during that period
The elimination of all initial grants-in-aid and recruiting activities in the sport involved in the latest major violation in question for a two-year period.
The requirement that all institutional staff member serving on the NCAA Board of Directors; Leadership, Legislative, Presidents or Management Councils; Executive Committee or other Association governance bodies resign their positions. All institutional representatives shall be ineligible to serve on any NCAA committee for a period of four years and
The requirement that the institution relinquish its Association voting privileges for a four-year period."

To do so against the legislation of the NCAA is opening them up for issues that could be litigated.

Also from your source (NCAA):
The repeat-violator legislation (?death penalty?) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:

1. Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs and
2. The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

On point 2, UNM has been assessed penalties against their WBB & track teams...both within 5 years.

[Really Clark?]

Also from your source (NCAA):
The repeat-violator legislation (?death penalty?) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:

1. Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs and
2. The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

On point 2, UNM has been assessed penalties against their WBB & track teams...both within 5 years.

Yes but it will only apply to violations occurring after that penalty being announced last fall. There is no report that the revised NOA includes violations after that point. Everything we know so far is the revised NOA still concerns violations before that time.

[sandwolf]

They've been under the repeat offender clause since the fall.This is one variable that could change the game....but this is only a factor if the amended NOA contains an allegation that took place after the women's basketball and track teams were put on probation, and I would be surprised if that were the case. I still don't think that puts the DP on the table but it could open the door to some seriously draconian sanctions.

[Dolphus Raymond]

"Take the win."

[WSOPdawg]

The matrix is just a guideline like a sentencing guideline. But you have to separate the infractions between individuals and institutional and the part of the matrix that applies. The fraud and LOIC (due to the number and severity of infractions by individuals) are the major infractions that are tied to the school and will carry the bulk of their penalties under the probation, competition ban, scholarship reduction, and financial penalties. Recruiting restrictions, etc. is more fluid but still tied to what the staff did. But the infraction concerning Farrar for example, that Level 1 infraction in itself doesn't use the penalties that apply to the program as a whole. The indivual penalties under the matrix will only apply to the Farrar infraction. However; him, Harris, Kiffin, and head coach responsibility taken together is what is getting them LOIC. They will not take each of those separately to apply program sanctions but the whole is applied to levy Level 1 LOIC against the school. There is a separation of what part of the matrix can be used for what infraction.

Don't know about that as I think what every one is saying is ALL semantics and a lot of conjuring and wishful thinking because we've never seen anything like this as applied to the NCAA's new penalty matrix introduced in 2013. We'll find out soon.

But, hypothetically speaking, what if the NCAA systematically applied the matrix penalties across the board to EACH individual Level I allegation yielding penalty losses approaching 60 scholarships? I'll tell ya what would happen -- you'd have EVERY institution in the land straightening up and going clean in a heartbeat for fear of being penalized the same way.

Again, this is the 1st time since the introduction of the new penalty matrix in 2013 it's really been used, so we'll see how it all unfolds.

[Really Clark?]

And for the record, I believe this is a benchmark case for the NCAA and unprecedented. I can see school penalties in the form of 6-8 years probation, 2-3 year postseason ban, 50% scholarship reduction over 4 years, and large financial penalty. In the original NOA from last year with their laughable self imposed penalties they did self impose a financial penalty of 1% of the program's budget which is the same as a Level 1 standard. They knew that there was more there and wanted to self impose a large financial penalty (like many of their people believe you just throw money at a problem to make it go away). For reference they tried to self impose the same penalty that ULL received except ULL was only penalized $5,000. They tried to throw $159,325 at the NCAA. That's a large self imposed financial penalty. I believe they get significant penalties but the process that many are trying to apply the penalty matrix is not how violations to infractions to penalties work. The COI do have leadway to deviate from the matrix but thy have to be able to prove and satisfy the remaining NCAA and the appellant committee to do so. That is one of the major reasons for the matrix. You have guidelines to show schools and coaches exactly what to expect if caught because many were looking at old cases and deciding "it's worth it" to cheat in certain instances.

[Really Clark?]

Don't know about that as I think what every one is saying is ALL semantics and a lot of conjuring and wishful thinking because we've never seen anything like this as applied to the NCAA's new penalty matrix introduced in 2013. We'll find out soon.

But, hypothetically speaking, what if the NCAA systematically applied the matrix penalties across the board to EACH individual Level I allegation yielding penalty losses approaching 60 scholarships? I'll tell ya what would happen -- you'd have EVERY institution in the land straightening up and going clean in a heartbeat for fear of being penalized the same way.

Again, this is the 1st time since the introduction of the new penalty matrix in 2013 it's really been used, so we'll see how it all unfolds.

But an infraction dealing with the individual, like Farrar, has no scholarship reduction portion or program probation or postseason ban that can be applied. The infractions of a coach, staffer, etc. that single infraction can't use the program penalty of the matrix only the part that deals with individual penalties. But what those infractions are tied to are institutional Failure to Monitor, Lack of Institutional Control, etc.

I do agree with your hypothesis and believe they will deviate with the penalties some or maybe within multiple sections. It is uncharted waters.

[Boodawg]

Everyone keeps saying "worst since SMU". Is it not worst in history? Just asking.

[Mimi's Babies]

Everyone keeps saying "worst since SMU". Is it not worst in history? Just asking.

AGREED.... The DP is beginning to look to the the life saver at this time.....

[Reason2succeed]

If they lose 30 scholarships and a two year bowl ban and Freeze and a few other coaches get show clauses then I believe OM has dodged a bullet. I'm not saying that those penalties won't hurt them. They will. Basically they will have lost only one scholarship for each infraction.

A bowl ban hurts financially but all they have to do is schedule a home and away against Hawaii and the recruits won't know the difference.

The probation issue won't be much of a problem because the NCAA will have already shown they aren't interested in inflicting too much damage on a program so I would be confident that investigators would not be back on the beautiful OM campus until after the probation was lifted.

OM has already shown no shame concerning Hugh Freeze. The chancellor of OM went out there and fully back him on the hostage video. Why do people think a show cause would force OM to fire Freeze? Under those penalties Freeze likely continues to coach OM and spout his BS about integrity, faith and family

[sandwolf]

If they lose 30 scholarships and a two year bowl ban and Freeze and a few other coaches get show clauses then I believe OM has dodged a bullet. I'm not saying that those penalties won't hurt them. They will. Basically they will have lost only one scholarship for each infraction.

A bowl ban hurts financially but all they have to do is schedule a home and away against Hawaii and the recruits won't know the difference.

The probation issue won't be much of a problem because the NCAA will have already shown they aren't interested in inflicting too much damage on a program so I would be confident that investigators would not be back on the beautiful OM campus until after the probation was lifted.

OM has already shown no shame concerning Hugh Freeze. The chancellor of OM went out there and fully back him on the hostage video. Why do people think a show cause would force OM to fire Freeze? Under those penalties Freeze likely continues to coach OM and spout his BS about integrity, faith and family

https://media0.giphy.com/media/XeMHdmTnxnHBC/200.webp#141-grid1

[blacklistedbully]

Yes but it will only apply to violations occurring after that penalty being announced last fall. There is no report that the revised NOA includes violations after that point. Everything we know so far is the revised NOA still concerns violations before that time.

Actually, it does not have to be "after that penalty being announced". Rather the rule says, "after a major case is announced" When was the case announced?

[Really Clark?]

Actually, it does not have to be "after that penalty being announced". Rather the rule says, "after a major case is announced" When was the case announced?

"The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case." It has to happen after that point.

[Reason2succeed]

I understand what you are saying about the NCAA legislation saying that a DP must fall under the repeat violator status but as someone mentioned before SMU "self imposed" the DP under pressure from the NCAA.

Regardless of how penalties are calculated with the matrix the process will include a committee sitting around a table looking at the list of infractions on one hand and the penalty matrix on the other hand. These people will fully understand that watering down penalties for such an extensive list of infractions could set a detrimental precedent for the entire NCAA. They can't just decide not to use the matrix.

Also, while this is the first "major" case under the new matrix it is not the first case. If they do not follow the matrix to the letter they potentially open the NCAA up to scrutiny from smaller schools and programs that have already been punished following this matrix.

I believe that someone on the COI will suggest asking OM to consider self imposing a DP as an alternative to accepting the penalties on the matrix. As has been stated before I fully believe that a one or even two year DP would not be as detrimental as the number of scholarships, bowl bans, and years of probation that could be charged. Accepting the DP would give OM more than adequate reasoning to fire HF and clean house with cause which would void the contract they just signed him to.

And let's be honest the real big wigs (both athletic and academic) at OM must realize that even under probation they are one silly rogue booster and/or recruit away from repeat violation and the DP anyway.

Let's not forget that at every university there are some academic types who absolutely loathe the athletic side and all the money football coaches are paid. This is all the ammunition the deans and tenured professors need to argue that the athletic department is ruining the reputation of the UM. I would not be surprised to see some professors either raising hell or leaving for other schools over this. The chancellor will be in a major pickle.

[Really Clark?]

SMU didn't self impose the death penalty. Not sure where anyone got that.

The matrix is a guideline. It was never intended and the NCAA specifically stated when they introduced the matrix that COI can still deviate, if justified. They do not have to follow it to the letter or apply it to the letter for each infraction. The smaller cases will fall within the matrix guidelines the vast majority of the time because you are dealing with a number of infractions that are manageable. It's going to be impossible for major case to be followed by the letter with each infraction and added together. That was never the intention or ever presented that they would do so. And the schools would not want the matrix implemented in that way. Remember the matrix and how it is to be used was discussed with the member institutions, presidents, AD's and coaches long before it was unveiled to the public.

[Dawgology]

Actually, it does not have to be "after that penalty being announced". Rather the rule says, "after a major case is announced" When was the case announced?

When was this case announced? Was it ever??? Has that been the game all along?

[WSOPdawg]

SMU didn't self impose the death penalty. Not sure where anyone got that.

The matrix is a guideline. It was never intended and the NCAA specifically stated when they introduced the matrix that COI can still deviate, if justified. They do not have to follow it to the letter or apply it to the letter for each infraction. The smaller cases will fall within the matrix guidelines the vast majority of the time because you are dealing with a number of infractions that are manageable. It's going to be impossible for major case to be followed by the letter with each infraction and added together. That was never the intention or ever presented that they would do so. And the schools would not want the matrix implemented in that way. Remember the matrix and how it is to be used was discussed with the member institutions, presidents, AD's and coaches long before it was unveiled to the public.

I though SMU decided "for the safety of the players" that playing the year following the bcaa-mandated "year-off" that they would NOT field a team, thus they self-imposed the 2nd year of the DP. But not the 1st year, which was NCAA mandated as they wanted to shut the cheating-laced program down.

[Really Clark?]

When was this case announced? Was it ever??? Has that been the game all along?

See my response above that includes the second point in that legislation. It has to occur after the penalties are announced.

[MedDawg]

I though SMU decided "for the safety of the players" that playing the year following the bcaa-mandated "year-off" that they would NOT field a team, thus they self-imposed the 2nd year of the DP. But not the 1st year, which was NCAA mandated as they wanted to shut the cheating-laced program down.

Yeah. As I remembered it, SMU was penalized a season and a portion of another season, and SMU voluntarily gave up the rest of that second season.

[Really Clark?]

I though SMU decided "for the safety of the players" that playing the year following the bcaa-mandated "year-off" that they would NOT field a team, thus they self-imposed the 2nd year of the DP. But not the 1st year, which was NCAA mandated as they wanted to shut the cheating-laced program down.

No. They couldn't field a viable team so they decided to wait until they could to play. They were not able to play home games that year anyway from the original NCAA decision. But they didn't decide that until later and had nothing to do with giving themselves additional sanctions because they believed they deserved harsher punishment. It was the NCAA's punishment that made it difficult for them to get enough players to compete and field a team that was not completely outclassed. That's not self imposing a penalty, that's dealing with the consequences of the death penalty handed down by the NCAA.

[Really Clark?]

Yeah. As I remembered it, SMU was penalized a season and a portion of another season, and SMU voluntarily gave up the rest of that second season.

No. It wasn't until a few months after the penalties were handed out and transfers were happening that the school didn't see a way they could field a viable team, so they cancelled the away games that were scheduled for 1988. But to self impose, they had to present this PRIOR to sancations being handed out, not after. That was the price they had to deal with for their corruption and sanctions

[Reason2succeed]

SMU didn't self impose the death penalty. Not sure where anyone got that.

Whether or not SMU self imposed or not it is a possibility that a program can choose to self impose in lieu of other penalties. A better argument would be the time for self imposing penalties has already passed. I could accept that.

The matrix is a guideline. It was never intended and the NCAA specifically stated when they introduced the matrix that COI can still deviate, if justified.

If it's not justified when there is academic fraud, illegal payments, and illegal contact when will it be justified?

They do not have to follow it to the letter or apply it to the letter for each infraction.

Then why present a matrix to the public? As stated earlier if the COI deviates too far from the matrix then the sports media will have a field day exposing the NCAA. It will prove that their 2013 reorganization was a sham. It will be business as usual for rogue programs and boosters.

The smaller cases will fall within the matrix guidelines the vast majority of the time because you are dealing with a number of infractions that are manageable.

People have already been complaining about the unfairness of the NCAA towards small programs. The myth that the NCAA will never give a DP again has been debunked numerously by showing the small schools and non-revenue programs that received the DP AFTER SMU.

It's going to be impossible for major case to be followed by the letter with each infraction and added together.

It's OM's compliance office's fault that this is a major case not the NCAA's. Saying that the penalties are too steep for you to pay the price is a pretty pathetic excuse.

That was never the intention or ever presented that they would do so.
Is this your opinion or do you have actual knowledge of this? Once again why create a matrix that will not be used. They put mitigated, standard and aggravated in the matrix to account for variables. Going totally off Script should not be another option or the whole thing falls apart again.

And the schools would not want the matrix implemented in that way.

There have been several articles posted on ED that state that behind the scenes there are other institutions that want to see UNC and OM hammered. I don't think they will mind the matrix being used as they voted on.

Remember the matrix and how it is to be used was discussed with the member institutions, presidents, AD's and coaches long before it was unveiled to the public.

Are you saying that they presented one thing to the public while secretly having a different agreement by the scenes? That is deserving of a tin foil hat.


NM

[Really Clark?]

Reason, I'm not just given an opinion. It is what they stated and have stated what the matrix is for and how it will be used. The first reason it was considered was strickly to stop the "risk/reward" that members were considering with premeditated violations. They wanted something in writing and a guideline to show violators, if you do this violation, you can expect this type of punishment. But they have never stated that the matrix must be stacked per every single violation by the letter. That was never on the board. That is what makes major cases complicated at punishment phase and what makes this a benchmark for schools. The rest of the members are looking at the "risk/reward" of this case to determine their line of violations they are willing to cross.

Your last section, what!?!? I was saying that the members had input into the matrix before it was finished. Don't know where you are getting the conspiracy theory. In fact the NCAA stated in the release that at one point they were not getting as much feed back as they had hoped to let the members know basically, if you don't respond now to help develop this, don't complain later when you get hit with the sanctions guidelines.

[Bubb Rubb]

And for the record, I believe this is a benchmark case for the NCAA and unprecedented. I can see school penalties in the form of 6-8 years probation, 2-3 year postseason ban, 50% scholarship reduction over 4 years, and large financial penalty. In the original NOA from last year with their laughable self imposed penalties they did self impose a financial penalty of 1% of the program's budget which is the same as a Level 1 standard. They knew that there was more there and wanted to self impose a large financial penalty (like many of their people believe you just throw money at a problem to make it go away). For reference they tried to self impose the same penalty that ULL received except ULL was only penalized $5,000. They tried to throw $159,325 at the NCAA. That's a large self imposed financial penalty. I believe they get significant penalties but the process that many are trying to apply the penalty matrix is not how violations to infractions to penalties work. The COI do have leadway to deviate from the matrix but thy have to be able to prove and satisfy the remaining NCAA and the appellant committee to do so. That is one of the major reasons for the matrix. You have guidelines to show schools and coaches exactly what to expect if caught because many were looking at old cases and deciding "it's worth it" to cheat in certain instances.

the NCAA also set a bit of a precedent with Penn State, where they handed down incredible penalties, and then reduced them over time. I'd hate for that to happen, but perhaps that could happen here too....hand out biblical punishments to send a message, and then lessen them over time....almost like credit for good behavior. Of course, that would have to mean that Ole Miss finally decided to get their house in order, which isn't a given.

[Really Clark?]

the NCAA also set a bit of a precedent with Penn State, where they handed down incredible penalties, and then reduced them over time. I'd hate for that to happen, but perhaps that could happen here too....hand out biblical punishments to send a message, and then lessen them over time....almost like credit for good behavior. Of course, that would have to mean that Ole Miss finally decided to get their house in order, which isn't a given.

The Penn St deal was difficult. Mostly the issue was revolved around a scandal that had criminal implications and there was just not a lot of legislation for them to use other than the lying and cover up. That kind of put that case in its own category. The matrix can't really fit that case because of the type of infractions it actually involved and you had a massive scandal. The scandal is what actually had the COI thinking if they should or could use the death penalty with that case. It was a major external factor that made it difficult to decide on punishment and the reduction of penalties was a fluid situation. Without the external factor of a scandal, I don't think UNM will get a reduction in penalties at a later date, unless the appeals committee reduces a portion during the process. But that was a difficult and poignant case.

[dawgpound]

40 scholarships
2 year bowl ban
10 year show cause for freezus
10 year probation
vacate all wins under freezus

anything less will be a shame

[Bubb Rubb]

I think the penalties will shake out something like this:

4 years probation
30 - 35 scholarships docked
2 year show cause for Freeze
Multiple show cause rulings for assistants (10 years for Farrar)
2 year bowl ban
Additional financial penalties
Recruiting visit and recruit contact limitations

This seems underwhelming, but it would cripple Ole Miss. They would lose their coach, have their hands tied in recruiting, see their young talent transfer out, and have to field a team of walk-ons and players they are battling sun belt teams for. It would take them 10 years to overcome it. Oh, and there's the repeat offender watch, too, so any misstep during that time would make it worse.

[Coach007]

NCAA will accept the penalties Ole Miss has offered.






































Thread was about dead. Figured I would kick it up a notch

[LockeDawg]

Guys. Nowhere in the bylaws or matrix does it state they have to stack the penalties with each violation. In fact it does say they can choose which part of the penalties they may or may not use for punishment. And I can't think of a time they have ever just across board added penalties on top of each other when dealing with multiple infractions. Honestly, the base penalty matrix for the starting point of what they are looking at is Level 1 aggravated and the COI will add or subtract accordingly each subsection. That will probably be the minimum. But nowhere are they required to added each penalty together by the matrix standard for each and every penalty. The Fraud and LOIC (especially since that is usually an aggravated offense) will be the starting point of the penalties more than likely then adjust upward from there. The coaches penalty matrix is considered separately from the school as well.

Well Hells Bells! No wonder they didn't do a damn thing to stop the cheating train. Why would they even make an effort to clean up their operation if there's a ceiling on the penalties the NCAA can hand down?

[Bubb Rubb]

Well Hells Bells! No wonder they didn't do a damn thing to stop the cheating train. Why would they even make an effort to clean up their operation if there's a ceiling on the penalties the NCAA can hand down?

There's a ceiling on any penalty that's handed down. The question is whether the penalties effectively stop the behavior. Clark's explanation leaves plenty of runway for the NCAA to turn Ole Miss into a quiet neighborhood for a decade or so.

[Mimi's Babies]

Dear Coach,

I do NOT believe for any reason that the NCAA will except the penalties offered by OM.... haha.... GTHOM

[LockeDawg]

There's a ceiling on any penalty that's handed down. The question is whether the penalties effectively stop the behavior. Clark's explanation leaves plenty of runway for the NCAA to turn Ole Miss into a quiet neighborhood for a decade or so.JMHO, but I don't think the behavior ceases until all of the rouge Boosters names are made public. Every person involved in the violations needs to feel the public humiliation strongly for the Network to pull in the reigns on this run away train. Run their names and businesses through the mud for a few months and those clowns will think twice before they seek out another high school coach or recruit.

Imagine yourself sitting on the pew in church on Sunday after a humiliating OleMiss loss and folks are pointing/whispering about your involvement paying players and effectively causing the team to suffer week in and week out. How happy will the wife be when she's attending the weekly prayer circle meeting or the local garden party & the vicious gossiping women are discussing hubby being named in the NOA. Imagine the vitriol you'd get from the members of the country club when the wife & kids are hanging out at the pool/tennis courts.

They deserve to be shamed for their actions, and if they aren't then what will ever stop them?

[DancingRabbit]

Neal McCready wrote yesterday that he thinks most Ole Miss fans will begrudgingly accept:

1 year bowl ban
15-20 scholarships
Suspension for Hugh Freeze

[Reason2succeed]

Well Hells Bells! No wonder they didn't do a damn thing to stop the cheating train. Why would they even make an effort to clean up their operation if there's a ceiling on the penalties the NCAA can hand down?

Exactly!!!


Neal McCready wrote yesterday that he thinks most Ole Miss fans will begrudgingly accept:

1 year bowl ban
15-20 scholarships
Suspension for Hugh Freeze

This is why from all accounts they haven't stopped their behavior. Why would you if this is the only penalty you get? They got a sugar bowl and they lose one year of bowl eligibility that can be covered by a trip to Hawaii.

[LockeDawg]

Exactly!!!



This is why from all accounts they haven't stopped their behavior. Why would you if this is the only penalty you get? They got a sugar bowl and they lose one year of bowl eligibility that can be covered by a trip to Hawaii.

If there is no solid, concrete reason to curtail the cheating due to minimal consequences, then what is the incentive to put a stop to them? This shit was systematic and it was orchestrated from the very core of the Athletic Department. When the Asst AD facilitates Booster/Recruit involvement, when he does all of the necessary leg work to introduce Boosters to specific recruits and aids in administering impermissible benefits then there is no control or oversight involved.

When the staffer continues to operate while the NCAA is in the building actively investigating, then someone within the institution directed him to do so knowing there'd be no repercussions down the road. OleMiss/Barney and the staff never even checked up during the investigation, they continued on business a usual. Then after the first NOA was received and the NCAA gave them a heads up on Barney's sideshow enterprise they chose to keep him on staff, WTF?

[TrapGame]

Neal McCready wrote yesterday that he thinks most Ole Miss fans will begrudgingly accept:

1 year bowl ban
15-20 scholarships
Suspension for Hugh Freeze

Maybe before NOA numero dos but now they better get a jar of lube and use it liberally.

[Bubb Rubb]

Maybe before NOA numero dos but now they better get a jar of lube and use it liberally.

Precisely what I was thinking. That would've been a little disappointing for just the first NOA. After the second one? It's gonna be a lot worse than that.

[LockeDawg]

Maybe before NOA numero dos but now they better get a jar of lube and use it liberally.

Agreed, OM could have taken serious action after the 1st NOA and cut Freeze/Farrar/and every other staffer in the allegations. They could have shown contrition, put forth every effort to right the ship and prove to the NCAA that they would put the funds and attention necessary to harbor an environment of compliance.

Instead, they basically walked around with middle fingers in the air, laughing in the face of the NCAA and Barney kept the train a chuggin along.

[Duckdog]

Nuke the fing shitbirds

[Mimi's Babies]

This thread update:

6,933 views
138 post

439 Online NOW.... keep it up ladies and gentlemen....
Some people are fishing in our pond today....:cool:

[sandwolf]

I think the penalties will shake out something like this:

4 years probation
30 - 35 scholarships docked
2 year show cause for Freeze
Multiple show cause rulings for assistants (10 years for Farrar)
2 year bowl ban
Additional financial penalties
Recruiting visit and recruit contact limitations

This seems underwhelming, but it would cripple Ole Miss. They would lose their coach, have their hands tied in recruiting, see their young talent transfer out, and have to field a team of walk-ons and players they are battling sun belt teams for. It would take them 10 years to overcome it. Oh, and there's the repeat offender watch, too, so any misstep during that time would make it worse.An aggravated Level 1 violation calls for 6-10 years of probation, so considering the number of Level 1's and the LOIC charge I think that they will be looking at a much longer probationary period....otherwise I think those penalties look realistic.

And yes, those sanctions would cripple OM. USC got 30 over 3 and at the end of those 3 years, this LA Times article (http://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp-usc-ncaa-sanctions-20140608-story.html) describes their roster situation as follows:


Scholarship reductions combined with injuries, transfers and attrition left USC's football team with 44 available scholarship players for last season's Las Vegas Bowl. That's 41 fewer than the NCAA maximum, so it will take at least two years of signing maximum-size recruiting classes of 25 before the Trojans are back to full roster strength.

Consider OM in that situation and combine it with the fact that they will have to recruit by the book.....it would cripple them for a decade. And anyone expecting much more than that is not being realistic.

[WSOPdawg]

Well Hells Bells! No wonder they didn't do a damn thing to stop the cheating train. Why would they even make an effort to clean up their operation if there's a ceiling on the penalties the NCAA can hand down?


If there is no solid, concrete reason to curtail the cheating due to minimal consequences, then what is the incentive to put a stop to them? This shit was systematic and it was orchestrated from the very core of the Athletic Department. When the Asst AD facilitates Booster/Recruit involvement, when he does all of the necessary leg work to introduce Boosters to specific recruits and aids in administering impermissible benefits then there is no control or oversight involved.

When the staffer continues to operate while the NCAA is in the building actively investigating, then someone within the institution directed him to do so knowing there'd be no repercussions down the road. OleMiss/Barney and the staff never even checked up during the investigation, they continued on business a usual. Then after the first NOA was received and the NCAA gave them a heads up on Barney's sideshow enterprise they chose to keep him on staff, WTF?

Locke's on fire today, rep given bro.

Business as usual WILL be there downfall as the NCAA was already in da house!!!

[Reason2succeed]

If the NCAA isn't going to punish harsher than why not go and get Greg Little after Laramy Tunsil spilled The beans.

[Johnson85]

Neal McCready wrote yesterday that he thinks most Ole Miss fans will begrudgingly accept:

1 year bowl ban
15-20 scholarships
Suspension for Hugh Freeze

I just don't get how they think they are going to get off lighter than USCw. That's a much more storied program getting caught with much, much less.

[TrapGame]

I just don't get how they think they are going to get off lighter than USCw. That's a much more storied program getting caught with much, much less.

Because those delusional bastards think they are a storied program. They think they are on par with Bama, ND and USC.

They need to prepare thine anus for a pounding.

[blacklistedbully]

"The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case." It has to happen after that point.

From NCAA.org FAQ:

What is the ?death penalty??
The repeat-violator legislation (?death penalty?) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:

1. Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs and
2. The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.
http://www.ncaa.org/enforcement/enforcement-process-penalties

We know the NCAA was investigating the WBB program by 2012. Would that not satisfy the first requirement? Would not the NCAA have announced to UNM there was a "major case" being investigated before they began their investigation?

If so, then at least some of the stuff in the recent NOA's should satisfy #2, nez pa?

[Mutt the Hoople]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.
All schollies over four years, club football for another four, D III for another three, and then ANOTHER Death Penalty just for Shits and Giggles.

[Bubb Rubb]

All schollies over four years, club football for another four, D III for another three, and then ANOTHER Death Penalty just for Shits and Giggles.

That *MIGHT* finish them off.

[Political Hack]

People are joking about the death oenalty, butbif the NCAA has any teeth that's exactly what will happen. Ole Miss peed on them for 4 years abdntold them it was raining.

[LockeDawg]

I just don't get how they think they are going to get off lighter than USCw. That's a much more storied program getting caught with much, much less.

They don't seriously think they will get of lite. On social media they come across as if everything will be fine, they'll get a slap on the wrist, they'll "begrudgingly accept" minuscule penalties. The facade you portray on a message board/twitter is nothing but a farce. They know, just like anyone else that has read the 1st NOA and watched the hostage video regarding the amended NOA that these allegations are just about as bad as any one program can accumulate.

When multiple sports, spanning multiple coaches, and multiple ADs are tagged with Academic Fraud, Lack of Institutional Control, and a HC is pegged with Failure to Monitor his on staffers then that reaches historical proportions.

The USC case on Reggie Bush was an isolated incident in the eyes of the NCAA. Pete Carroll was never named by the NCAA, and those charge were for ONE player, under ONE sport. They STILL haven't recovered from their sanctions.

[blacklistedbully]

"The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case." It has to happen after that point.

I see what you're saying. But didn't UNM "self-impose" some penalties on WBB early in the process. Coach got fired, self-imposed post-season ban, I think. Would that count, or is it only after the NCAA officially accepts that as part or whole penalties?

Technically speaking, "within 5 years" can be around the date of penalties announced, before & after, so long as it is after a major case has been announced. Probably not what they meant, but maybe it is left a little vague on purpose.

[Really Clark?]

From NCAA.org FAQ:

What is the ?death penalty??
The repeat-violator legislation (?death penalty?) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:

1. Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs and
2. The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.
http://www.ncaa.org/enforcement/enforcement-process-penalties

We know the NCAA was investigating the WBB program by 2012. Would that not satisfy the first requirement? Would not the NCAA have announced to UNM there was a "major case" being investigated before they began their investigation?

If so, then at least some of the stuff in the recent NOA's should satisfy #2, nez pa?

Both conditions have to be met and announcing the penalties is the NCAA announcement of a major case. Until the COI announces the final disposition and penalties the NCAA can only say they are investigating allegations. The NCAA can not officially announce a NOA, that has to come from the school.

[Really Clark?]

I see what you're saying. But didn't UNM "self-impose" some penalties on WBB early in the process. Coach got fired, self-imposed post-season ban, I think. Would that count, or is it only after the NCAA officially accepts that as part or whole penalties?

Technically speaking, "within 5 years" can be around the date of penalties announced, before & after, so long as it is after a major case has been announced. Probably not what they meant, but maybe it is left a little vague on purpose.

Until the NCAA makes an official final statement after the COI meeting, that includes the final penalties, the clock can not begin prior to that date for the repeat offender clause. Both the final penalty phase announced report from the NCAA and a major violation occurring within 5 years from that starting point have to occur before it triggers the repeat offender clause.

Self-Imposing penalties is strickly to attempt to mitigate the level of the infraction. Until the COI meeting happens and they release their final judgement, the NCAA has not announced a case. They can't by the by-laws. And when dealing with a private university, unless outside pressure forces them to do so, they don't have to release the NOA or their response. So the only time the NCAA can make an announcement is after the COI meeting and final penalty phase.

As far as WBB and track at UNM, by the NCAA separating the NOA and moving to final penalty phase for those sports, that's the reason why the clock started in Oct of 2016. Otherwise we would still be waiting for the repeat offender clock to start.

[WSOPdawg]

Well Hells Bells! No wonder they didn't do a damn thing to stop the cheating train. Why would they even make an effort to clean up their operation if there's a ceiling on the penalties the NCAA can hand down?


People are joking about the death oenalty, butbif the NCAA has any teeth that's exactly what will happen. Ole Miss peed on them for 4 years abdntold them it was raining.

Lets see -- on the harsh "DP definitely in play" side we've got reason2succeed, blacklistedbully, Dawgology, WSOPdawg, Hack, Mutt, Mimi, shotgun, TrapGame, BeardoMSU, Liverpooldawg, Devious, LockeDawg & BulldogBear.

On the "NCAA will never give another school the DP" side, we got confucious, Bubb Rubb, Really Clark, sand wolf, spiderman, TUSK, preachermattt

with Rando moving closer and closer to "DP definitely in play" by the day. If I missed anybody or recorded your side incorrectly, please make the addition or correction.

[Reason2succeed]

All schollies over four years, club football for another four, D III for another three, and then ANOTHER Death Penalty just for Shits and Giggles.

Damn, with no ***. Even I'm like "that's too much though". Hahahahaha! I like how you think.

[Really Clark?]

Lets see -- on the harsh "DP definitely in play" side we've got reason2succeed, blacklistedbully, Dawgology, WSOPdawg, Hack, Mutt, Mimi, shotgun, TrapGame, BeardoMSU, Liverpooldawg, Devious, LockeDawg & BulldogBear.

On the "NCAA will never give another school the DP" side, we got confucious, Bubb Rubb, Really Clark, sand wolf, spiderman, TUSK, preachermattt

with Rando moving closer and closer to "DP definitely in play" by the day. If I missed anybody or recorded your side incorrectly, please make the addition or correction.

You better have a quote where I ever said that. In fact a year or so back when talking about that very subject I was one of the ones who pointed out it has actually been used since SMU and Texas St almost had ALL if their sports programs shut down a few years ago and how because of the heinous scandal at Penn St which NCAA legislation never even considered, that the COI actually discussed the DP. I don't believe at all that it won't ever be used again. But I also don't believe they will or should use it unless the conditions in the legislation, that effects and are agreed upon by all schools, are met. At this time the only I know for a fact is the clock has started, in Oct 2016. Until an allegation is made by the NCAA that they committed another major infraction since last Oct, then by their and the member schools own legislation, it can't be triggered. Speculation on whether they have committed major violations or not is outside of the COI, matrix, and repeat offender clause. I don't doubt they have. I do doubt it will be in the revised NOA. If so, then that is a totally different conversation.

[Negative Waves]

2 year bowl ban
3 years probation
24 schollies over 3 years.

I felt the way you did before the amended NOA. If UM had canned Freeze, the penalties probably would've been less severe. Now that they've decided to go down with the ship:

44 schollies over 4 years
3 year bowl ban
2010-2015 wins vacated
8 Year probation
10-year show cause for Freeze

I think Dan Wolken tweeted out that he heard or expected between 45-60! scholarships lost. There are some punishments worse than death.

[Reason2succeed]

Lets see -- on the harsh "DP definitely in play" side we've got reason2succeed, blacklistedbully, Dawgology, WSOPdawg, Hack, Mutt, Mimi, shotgun, TrapGame, BeardoMSU, Liverpooldawg, Devious, LockeDawg & BulldogBear.

On the "NCAA will never give another school the DP" side, we got confucious, Bubb Rubb, Really Clark, sand wolf, spiderman, TUSK, preachermattt

with Rando moving closer and closer to "DP definitely in play" by the day. If I missed anybody or recorded your side incorrectly, please make the addition or correction.

I couldn't be prouder to be the first name in a list of die hard bulldawgs that want to see OM publicly humiliated and decimated for their sins against college football.

[LockeDawg]

I felt the way you did before the amended NOA. If UM had canned Freeze, the penalties probably would've been less severe. Now that they've decided to go down with the ship:

44 schollies over 4 years
3 year bowl ban
2010-2015 wins vacated
8 Year probation
10-year show cause for Freeze

I think Dan Wolken tweeted out that he heard or expected between 45-60! scholarships lost. There are some punishments worse than death.

Attrition is normal on the best, most viable teams at 100% capacity with no NCAA penalties. Injuries are normal on the most healthy teams. Add in the loss of 40 scholly's over a 4 yr period + normal attrition + normal injuries and you'd be lucky to field a team that's 2 deep on both sides of the ball with everyone of them contributing on special teams.

There are indeed things worse than death.

[Really Clark?]

For reference of historic cases and lost scholarships, SMU lost 55 over 4 years in 1987 DP case

[LockeDawg]

For reference of historic cases and lost scholarships, SMU lost 55 over 4 years in 1987 DP case

What was the max scholarships allowed back then? It couldn't have been the 85 limit we have now or they couldn't have fielded a 22 man roster + special teams (kickers/punters.)

[sandwolf]

On the "NCAA will never give another school the DP" side, we got confucious, Bubb Rubb, Really Clark, sand wolf, spiderman, TUSK, preachermatttNo, I am on the "OM is going to get hammered, but anyone who thinks the DP is a real possibility is setting themselves up for disappointment" side.

[Really Clark?]

What was the max scholarships allowed back then? It couldn't have been the 85 limit we have now or they couldn't have fielded a 22 man roster + special teams (kickers/punters.)

It was 95 in 1987. But that wasn't 55 at one time.

[Bubb Rubb]

No, I am on the "OM is going to get hammered, but anyone who thinks the DP is a real possibility is setting themselves up for disappointment" side.

This is where I am as well. I didn't say the NCAA would never give another school the death penalty. I'm saying I don't think Ole Miss is going to get the death penalty.

[WSOPdawg]

No, I am on the "OM is going to get hammered, but anyone who thinks the DP is a real possibility is setting themselves up for disappointment" side.


This is where I am as well. I didn't say the NCAA would never give another school the death penalty. I'm saying I don't think Ole Miss is going to get the death penalty.

And along with Really Clark, we're all thinking that DP or not, TCUN is gonna get hammered harshly unlike anybody we've seen in a while. I will say that 40+ lost schollies with 3-yr bowl ban will be more difficult to overcome than the DP (kinda seems like the DP will be letting TCUN off lightly and allow them to get back to the cheating business sooner).

And fwiw, I do think we really won't see the penalties until late November or January, 2018, as it appears we're getting too close to the start of the current football season.