Cowherd gets the LBJ argument

[BeastMan]

From his opening and I think I have these stats right. The Spurs without Leonard and the Warriors without KD are a combined 17-3. The Cavs without LBJ are 0-6. "He's a traveling dynasty."

To take it further back to reinforce this argument, Jordan retires and the Bulls still go to the conference finals. If LBJ retires this tomorrow, the Cavs don't make the playoffs next year.

How people don't respect and understand how good LBJ is mind boggling. He's soooo much better than anyone currently in the league it's not close. Him not getting the MVP every year is laughable. All-time, the only other player that belongs in the discussion with him is MJ. That's it.

[smootness]

The Cavs would absolutely make the playoffs. When LeBron has rested, Kyrie has also often rested.

A team with Kyrie and Love is making the playoffs in the East, easily.

[smootness]

And I'm not sure how the Warriors' record without KD means anything. The Warriors won a title and won 73 without KD. Because KD is not the Warrior in the running for the best in the game. Curry is.

[BeastMan]

Ok, how about this. KD left the Thunder and they are a 6 seed who is 2.5 games out of 3rd place only trailing the ultra-elite Spurs and Warriors. Nobody means more

[BeastMan]

The Cavs would absolutely make the playoffs. When LeBron has rested, Kyrie has also often rested.

A team with Kyrie and Love is making the playoffs in the East, easily.

Cleveland averages 110 ppg and gives up 106.8. Using advanced metrics, Lebron is worth 16 points per 100 possessions for the Cavs. Maybe, just maybe they sneak on the playoffs but stats say they're a sub .500 team.

[Dawg61]

Nobody means more

Alonzo Ball and Lavar Ball both mean more. They are both better than LBJ, MJ, KD, Steph and UConn combined.

[BeastMan]

Alonzo Ball and Lavar Ball both mean more. They are both better than LBJ, MJ, KD, Steph and UConn combined.

God I'm sick of that media tour. He was lobbying for a reality show on Undisputed today

[louisvilledawg]

God I'm sick of that media tour. He was lobbying for a reality show on Undisputed today

I'm sick of it too, but good on Lavar for building that brand. I can't go an hour without being bombarded with Lavar, lamelo, or lonzo talk on the interwebs or office talk.

All pub is good pub

[Dawg61]

God I'm sick of that media tour. He was lobbying for a reality show on Undisputed today

Errrybody sick of it already. I would not draft him #1. His daddy is a problem and it's getting worse by the day.

[smootness]

Cleveland averages 110 ppg and gives up 106.8. Using advanced metrics, Lebron is worth 16 points per 100 possessions for the Cavs. Maybe, just maybe they sneak on the playoffs but stats say they're a sub .500 team.

You sure you want to use those stats? Because those stats say Curry is basically as good as LeBron this year, was better each of the two years before this one, and was better last year than LeBron has ever been.

[smootness]

Ok, how about this. KD left the Thunder and they are a 6 seed who is 2.5 games out of 3rd place only trailing the ultra-elite Spurs and Warriors. Nobody means more

Again, I don't think KD is in the argument for best in the game.

[Bubb Rubb]

Lebron's talent is not debatable. I cannot respect someone who flops around like he does though. I also don't like the games he plays with teammates and the front office in the media.

[HSVDawg]

The problem with the Cowherd argument is that how well a team does without their superstar is more a function of the quality of the supporting cast than how good the player is. The question isn't "how good would the Cavs be without LeBron", it's how good would they be if you swapped LeBron for Kawhi Leonard or Kevin Durant. If you take LeBron away they obviously would struggle to make the playoffs. But if you replace him with another MVP candidate and the results still aren't as good, then yes, LeBron is your MVP. If you can conceivably replace him with another player and get the same or better results, then its not as strong of a case for LBJ. It's a lot more difficult to assess that than to just say "take this guy away and what are you left with", but that is a much more viable argument. Players shouldn't win awards just based on being good players with a sketchy supporting cast.

[BeastMan]

The problem with the Cowherd argument is that how well a team does without their superstar is more a function of the quality of the supporting cast than how good the player is. The question isn't "how good would the Cavs be without LeBron", it's how good would they be if you swapped LeBron for Kawhi Leonard or Kevin Durant. If you take LeBron away they obviously would struggle to make the playoffs. But if you replace him with another MVP candidate and the results still aren't as good, then yes, LeBron is your MVP. If you can conceivably replace him with another player and get the same or better results, then its not as strong of a case for LBJ. It's a lot more difficult to assess that than to just say "take this guy away and what are you left with", but that is a much more viable argument. Players shouldn't win awards just based on being good players with a sketchy supporting cast.

It goes to show he says the best player in the game.

[BeastMan]

Lebron's talent is not debatable. I cannot respect someone who flops around like he does though. I also don't like the games he plays with teammates and the front office in the media.

Every player draws fouls. All of them. Part of the game. As far as being the GM publicly, that's been going on since Moses. Elite players pressure uncooperative front offices in the media.

[DudyDawg]

Again, I don't think KD is in the argument for best in the game.

Kevin Durant is the third best player in the game behind harden and lebron

Harden this season*

[HSVDawg]

It goes to show he says the best player in the game.

That's only the case if you can swap him with Leonard or Durant and still not get as good of results. I would add Westbrook and Harden to that list but they are not the same position so it isn't really apples to apples. But the point is, OKC is good without Durant because they still have Westbrook who is a Top 5 player. Bulls were good without Jordan because they still had Pippen who was a Top 5 player. Spurs are good without Leonard because they still have the whole cast (minus Duncan) that won all those titles. The Cavs don't have the same caliber supporting cast. They have Love who is a terrible defender and Kyrie Irving who is good but not Top 5 / Top 10 good.

For the record, I do agree that LeBron is definitely the best player in the NBA, and I think the player swaps mentioned above would show that. But that still doesn't mean that Cowherd's argument makes sense.

[DudyDawg]

That's only the case if you can swap him with Leonard or Durant and still not get as good of results. I would add Westbrook and Harden to that list but they are not the same position so it isn't really apples to apples. But the point is, OKC is good without Durant because they still have Westbrook who is a Top 5 player. Bulls were good without Jordan because they still had Pippen who was a Top 5 player. Spurs are good without Leonard because they still have the whole cast (minus Duncan) that won all those titles. The Cavs don't have the same caliber supporting cast. They have Love who is a terrible defender and Kyrie Irving who is good but not Top 5 / Top 10 good.

For the record, I do agree that LeBron is definitely the best player in the NBA, and I think the player swaps mentioned above would show that. But that still doesn't mean that Cowherd's argument makes sense.

Kyrie and love alone are better than any star's supporting cast outside of golden state. Kyrie is a Top 10 player and especially scorer, and love is a perfect offensive fit when healthy and a top 7-8 PF in the league.

That's not to mention guys like JR smith who can win games with his scoring, vets like RJ and Korver and Tristan Thompson

[HSVDawg]

Kyrie and love alone are better than any star's supporting cast outside of golden state. Kyrie is a Top 10 player and especially scorer, and love is a perfect offensive fit when healthy and a top 7-8 PF in the league.

That's not to mention guys like JR smith who can win games with his scoring, vets like RJ and Korver and Tristan Thompson

Well if all that is true, then they'd have no problem making the playoffs without LeBron. Thus remdering the argument even more meaningless.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

How people don't respect and understand how good LBJ is mind boggling.

It's mind boggling to me that people still watch the NBA.

[DudyDawg]

Well if all that is true, then they'd have no problem making the playoffs without LeBron. Thus remdering the argument even more meaningless.

I think they would absolutely the playoffs without him if those two stayed healthy all year, and especially would since not having him would mean they'd have a nice chunk of change to spend in salary.

[DudyDawg]

It's mind boggling to me that people still watch the NBA.

I love basketball, and like the NBA far more than college.

[BeastMan]

Well if all that is true, then they'd have no problem making the playoffs without LeBron. Thus remdering the argument even more meaningless.

Irving and Love are not the best supporting cast outside of GS. That's an absolutely ludicrous statement.

HSV,
You're whole argument that all it shows is who has a better supporting cast is the whole argument. Lebron is a traveling dynasty that takes whoever he's on to the finals. No one else does that. His first appearance with the Cavs was the worst supporting cast in modern history. Worse than AI's 6ers. All of that speaks to his dominance.

[BeastMan]

I love basketball, and like the NBA far more than college.

Me too. The college product is currently absolute shit. Less talent than years ago and the style of officiating has ruined the game. Teams in the bonus with 10 mins left in the half is laughable. It's mind boggling to me people can watch college basketball these days. It's a horrible product.

[DudyDawg]

Irving and Love are not the best supporting cast outside of GS. That's an absolutely ludicrous statement.

HSV,
You're whole argument that all it shows is who has a better supporting cast is the whole argument. Lebron is a traveling dynasty that takes whoever he's on to the finals. No one else does that. His first appearance with the Cavs was the worst supporting cast in modern history. Worse than AI's 6ers. All of that speaks to his dominance.

Who is better???? There is a reason they have blown thru the east and met the Warriors twice in a row and will likely do it again. A lot of that is LeBron, but those are two bonafide all stars and top 5 offensive players in their position in the league.

[DudyDawg]

Me too. The college product is currently absolute shit. Less talent than years ago and the style of officiating has ruined the game. Teams in the bonus with 10 mins left in the half is laughable. It's mind boggling to me people can watch college basketball these days. It's a horrible product.

Agree completely. I hate when people argue against the NBA by saying there is no defense. In the regular season, sure, guys plays off, but a ton of scoring comes from simply unguard-able shots and offense. Even more so in the playoffs.

[Bubb Rubb]

Every player draws fouls. All of them. Part of the game. As far as being the GM publicly, that's been going on since Moses. Elite players pressure uncooperative front offices in the media.

There is a difference between drawing fouls and flopping.

http://www.bet.com/news/sports/2017/03/28/nba-fans-are-clowning-lebron-james-over-his-epic-flop.html

This was his most recent. It's embarrassing.

[DudyDawg]

There is a difference between drawing fouls and flopping.

http://www.bet.com/news/sports/2017/03/28/nba-fans-are-clowning-lebron-james-over-his-epic-flop.html

This was his most recent. It's embarrassing.

He was down for a good 5 minutes, I think he caught a stinger in the spine there. Even if that is a flop, I couldn't care less. Doesn't diminish you as a player in my mind.

[Ari Gold]

I have no idea what Cowterd said. I didn't listen to it or read about it.
But Here is the bottom line..

Greatest player ever MJ , second is LBJ.
Just like Barkley said . You put Michael Jordan on any team and they are contenders to win the title. Same for LBJ.
And NBA has changed since the 80's and 90's.. MJ could and would average 40 or more a game in today's game.
And if you put LBJ on those teams back in the 80 and 90 the way the game was played, offcited, and the rules he would be just as dominate and have the same numbers and impact as he does today.
And he is probably the only player in today's game that would have the same success back then.

[Beaver]

I still think Jordan is better.

Field goal percentage is about the same. Jordan better at free throws. LeBron a better rebounder and passer. Jordan a better defender and more clutch--especially in the playoffs.

But here's what does it for me... Jordan led the NBA in scoring 10 times in 15 seasons. LeBron has only done it once in 14 seasons. Jordan was a 1st team All-defensive selection 9 times, LeBron only 5. Jordan has 6 Final's MVP's, while LeBron has 3.

[DudyDawg]

I still think Jordan is better.

Field goal percentage is about the same. Jordan better at free throws. LeBron a better rebounder and passer. Jordan a better defender and more clutch--especially in the playoffs.

But here's what does it for me... Jordan led the NBA in scoring 10 times in 15 seasons. LeBron has only done it once in 14 seasons. Jordan was a 1st team All-defensive selection 9 times, LeBron only 5. Jordan has 6 Final's MVP's, while LeBron has 3.

3 of those statistics are objectively chosen by media members. I don't think those are the best way to determine greatness.

And if lebron focused more on scoring, he could easily lead the league almost every year. He doesn't because he's really a pass first guy who likes to orchestrate games more than score. But that's up for debate I suppose.


As for "clutch"- a lot of that is selective memory. Michael hit 3 GW buzzer beaters in his career, lebron hit 3 by 2015.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nba/2015/5/11/8584749/lebron-james-michael-jordan-game-winning-shots

From the article-

In the playoffs LeBron has now taken 10 potential go-ahead shots in the final five seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime. He's connected on six of them, according to ESPN's Brian Windhorst. Jordan was 5-of-11 in such situations during his career.


LeBron has now played 166 total playoff games. In total he's averaging 27.9 points, 8.5 rebounds and 6.5 assists while shooting 48 percent from the field. Jordan played in 179 playoff games and averaged 33.4 points, 6.4 rebounds and 5.7 assists and shot 49 percent from the field.

[smootness]

Kevin Durant is the third best player in the game behind harden and lebron

Harden this season*

100% disagree. Curry is at worst the 2nd best player in basketball and has been for 3 years.

[jumbo]

I cannot respect someone who flops around like he does though.


So you don't respect 80% of the NBA?

[Tbonewannabe]

I would have a hard time picking between Westbrook, Harden, LBJ, and Curry. LBJ would probably be doing the same thing as Westbrook and Harden if he didn't have Irving and Love on his team. LBJ reminds me of Magic. He probably could be an Allstar at almost every position.

[DudyDawg]

100% disagree. Curry is at worst the 2nd best player in basketball and has been for 3 years.

Couldn't disagree more haha. He's a horrid on ball defender and a liability. There is a reason he is taken out defensively late in games. Harden isnt exactly Gary Payton, but when it is crunch time he is solid enough and is a very good rebounding guard that can match up in the post on a switch. When its crunch time for GSW, Curry is either on the bench or being taken advantage of. Constantly teams like the rockets run a guard/guard P&R to get Curry on Harden (or Westbrook). Curry has good hands and is a good weak side interceptor thru 3 quarters, but seems to really struggle to guard late in games. Durant on the other hand is very good on both ends quarters 1-4

[DudyDawg]

I would have a hard time picking between Westbrook, Harden, LBJ, and Curry. LBJ would probably be doing the same thing as Westbrook and Harden if he didn't have Irving and Love on his team. LBJ reminds me of Magic. He probably could be an Allstar at almost every position.

He, KD, and maybe Kawhi are the only players in the league that could be allstars in any position on the floor both offensively and defensively.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

I love basketball, and like the NBA far more than college.

So you prefer filthy rich whiney babies that choose to sit out games when there are fathers who could have possibly gotten tickets in advance to take their kid to see their favorite player and his or her favorite player is too weak to play a damn game? ok gotcha. NBA was farrrrrrrrrr better in Jordan days.

[DudyDawg]

So you prefer filthy rich whiney babies that choose to sit out games when there are fathers who could have possibly gotten tickets in advance to take their kid to see their favorite player and his or her favorite player is too weak to play a damn game? ok gotcha. NBA was farrrrrrrrrr better in Jordan days.

I prefer the players who have mastered their craft and are by farrrrrrrrrrr better than the college product. I prefer watching the best players in the world that are better than any generation on the whole as before. The generation after will be even better than them, given the amount of money, training, diet, athleticism changes the game has undergone in just a few decades. And I can't wait to see them either.


As far as sitting games, I don't love it, but it isn't going to change how much I love the NBA. Lebron has missed 6 games this year. Doesn't exactly sound like an epidemic. And if there is anyone to blame for them sitting (and things like KD joining GSW), it's the fans and media who constantly say ringzzzzzz is all that matters. Why push thru a lingering hammy or wrist injury on a Tuesday 62 games into the year when all people care about is rings? Sucks if you paid tickets to see one guy and he sits, but too bad.

[BeastMan]

So you prefer filthy rich whiney babies that choose to sit out games when there are fathers who could have possibly gotten tickets in advance to take their kid to see their favorite player and his or her favorite player is too weak to play a damn game? ok gotcha. NBA was farrrrrrrrrr better in Jordan days.

I guess you hate the MLB and Week 16 of the NFL just infuriates you

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

I guess you hate the MLB and Week 16 of the NFL just infuriates you

Were they in the last week of the season when they started sitting? NO didnt think so.

[chef dixon]

Beastman you are 100% correct. Anyone arguing against lebron is arguing for the sake of arguing or they just don't like lebron, which is fine. The influence he has on the team he is on is one of the most obvious observations in sports.

[Maroon Wizardry]

this argument will never go anywhere... ever does You can't compare Lebron and Curry... 2 different types of players. Both equally hall of fame talent. Lebron maybe GOAT but i don't really like calling anyone the GOAT. You could build a team around either of them and the team would be fantastic. You can do it with KD too just not on the same level.

[BeastMan]

Were they in the last week of the season when they started sitting? NO didnt think so.

82 game season broseph. And when you're LBJ, who is in the playoffs every season of your career, it adds a season and a half to his wear and tear. Don't think that extra 1.5 season doesn't matter. LBJ has played in more playoff games than any NBA player in history. If he wants to strategically sit 8 games a year and its legal, go for it. Now if you want the commissioner to change that, that's a whole different argument.

[BeastMan]

Beastman you are 100% correct. Anyone arguing against lebron is arguing for the sake of arguing or they just don't like lebron, which is fine. The influence he has on the team he is on is one of the most obvious observations in sports.

http://i.imgur.com/1DbpRVE.gif

[DudyDawg]

this argument will never go anywhere... ever does You can't compare Lebron and Curry... 2 different types of players. Both equally hall of fame talent. Lebron maybe GOAT but i don't really like calling anyone the GOAT. You could build a team around either of them and the team would be fantastic. You can do it with KD too just not on the same level.

Kd > curry.

[DudyDawg]

Were they in the last week of the season when they started sitting? NO didnt think so.

Lebron- missed 6
Kawhi- missed 7
Harden- 0
Westbrook- 0

[smootness]

Kd > curry.

You won't find more than maybe 5-10% of people around the sport who would agree with you on that. Curry has clearly surpassed him.

[DudyDawg]

You won't find more than maybe 5-10% of people around the sport who would agree with you on that. Curry has clearly surpassed him.

That is absolutely not true. A ton of the media and former players/coaches in the media feel like KD is better all around because of his ability on both ends, rebounding, and 4th quarter scoring and defending. Curry is more electrifying and when he gets hot hes the best player in the world for 5-6 minute stretches and can blow games open in those stretches all by himself, but overall and for 48 minutes, KD is the better player. Not saying Curry isn't incredible, he is, but Durant is a better overall player.

[smootness]

That is absolutely not true. A ton of the media and former players/coaches in the media feel like KD is better all around because of his ability on both ends, rebounding, and 4th quarter scoring and defending. Curry is more electrifying and when he gets hot hes the best player in the world for 5-6 minute stretches and can blow games open in those stretches all by himself, but overall and for 48 minutes, KD is the better player. Not saying Curry isn't incredible, he is, but Durant is a better overall player.

I would like to see those people. It became pretty much a consensus over the last couple years that Curry was at worst the 2nd best player in the game.

[DudyDawg]

I would like to see those people. It became pretty much a consensus over the last couple years that Curry was at worst the 2nd best player in the game.

Its something you'll hear by at least one broadcaster and studio guy when you watch them play. Curry is at worst the 2nd best offensive player.

[DudyDawg]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand that game is why I prefer the NBA to college

[smootness]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand that game is why I prefer the NBA to college

The college game is hurting right now, for multiple reasons. The one and done, while a good idea and a half-step in the right direction, is actually worse than just never having them in school. They need to make it two years or take it away completely.

The officiating has gotten worse and is bogging games down. All the reviews are also awful, they grind the game to a halt and take away the back-and-forth that makes basketball what it is.

And playing your biggest games in football stadiums is bad. It kills the atmosphere and kills the shooting.

[Tbonewannabe]

The college game is hurting right now, for multiple reasons. The one and done, while a good idea and a half-step in the right direction, is actually worse than just never having them in school. They need to make it two years or take it away completely.

The officiating has gotten worse and is bogging games down. All the reviews are also awful, they grind the game to a halt and take away the back-and-forth that makes basketball what it is.

And playing your biggest games in football stadiums is bad. It kills the atmosphere and kills the shooting.

I wish they would go to the baseball format, either go straight out of high school or 3 years in college. There are a few players that can jump straight to the NBA but there are too many going after 1 year now. It is actually hurting the NBA product because of all these 1 and done. The ones who are decent in the NBA probably would have been good straight out of high school. Now you get a lot not making it and going to the D League. 3 years would also help get the college game a consistent name recognition. By the time you know who the best players are in college, they are gone. There isn't any type of watching a player keep getting better over a few years so there are less "stars" coming out of college.

[smootness]

I wish they would go to the baseball format, either go straight out of high school or 3 years in college. There are a few players that can jump straight to the NBA but there are too many going after 1 year now. It is actually hurting the NBA product because of all these 1 and done. The ones who are decent in the NBA probably would have been good straight out of high school. Now you get a lot not making it and going to the D League. 3 years would also help get the college game a consistent name recognition. By the time you know who the best players are in college, they are gone. There isn't any type of watching a player keep getting better over a few years so there are less "stars" coming out of college.

I actually think the one-and-done has clearly helped the NBA, it's just really hurt college basketball. And I know Adam Silver is pushing for it to become a mandatory 2 years because that would help the NBA further. And I think that is the line at which it would become very beneficial to college basketball.

If you push the 'come straight out of HS or 3 years in college,' then I think you're going to see a ton of kids go into the draft out of HS and then if they aren't picked, go the international route. I just don't think enough of the top kids are going to accept going to college for 3 years.

[Tbonewannabe]

I actually think the one-and-done has clearly helped the NBA, it's just really hurt college basketball. And I know Adam Silver is pushing for it to become a mandatory 2 years because that would help the NBA further. And I think that is the line at which it would become very beneficial to college basketball.

If you push the 'come straight out of HS or 3 years in college,' then I think you're going to see a ton of kids go into the draft out of HS and then if they aren't picked, go the international route. I just don't think enough of the top kids are going to accept going to college for 3 years.

You are probably right. Just look at Malik "1 and done" Newman. He would be playing in China right now if he had the chance to go straight out of high school into the draft.

[smootness]

You are probably right. Just look at Malik "1 and done" Newman. He would be playing in China right now if he had the chance to go straight out of high school into the draft.

He'd probably be on an NBA bench after they tried to play him right away and realized he wasn't ready. That's why I think it's helped the NBA. You have that year against the next level up to see if they're really as good as you think, and it helps further weed out the ones who don't belong while giving a year of experience and maturity to the guys who really are top guys.

See Harry Giles this year. He would have been the #1-2 pick and then a huge bust. Now teams get to take somebody like Ball, Fultz, or Jackson who really do look legit.

But if you forced them to either come out of HS or play 3 years in college, I think you'd actually have more leaving straight out of HS than you did before.

[Tbonewannabe]

He'd probably be on an NBA bench after they tried to play him right away and realized he wasn't ready. That's why I think it's helped the NBA. You have that year against the next level up to see if they're really as good as you think, and it helps further weed out the ones who don't belong while giving a year of experience and maturity to the guys who really are top guys.

See Harry Giles this year. He would have been the #1-2 pick and then a huge bust. Now teams get to take somebody like Ball, Fultz, or Jackson who really do look legit.

But if you forced them to either come out of HS or play 3 years in college, I think you'd actually have more leaving straight out of HS than you did before.

That would definitely hurt the college game and the NBA.