So Arkansas baseball

[Todd4State]

Has now had three pitchers go down to elbow injuries with two of them needing Tommy John surgery. Including a guy who was supposed to be their ace.

[msstate7]

Since Wes got there? If so, his career is almost over

[Todd4State]

Yes. Just this year since Wes has been there.

[msstate7]

Yes. Just this year since Wes has been there.

I don't see any way his career survives this then. He's leaving a trail of elbows behind him

[HereComesTheSpiral]

I think that ends the snakebit argument.

[Tbonewannabe]

So is what he does to increase velocity dangerous? I always thought it was weird that he would be able to increase velocity that quickly. It seems like the "secret" would get out pretty quick of what he was doing.

[GTHOM]

WTF is he doing torturing the kids????

[msstate7]

So is what he does to increase velocity dangerous? I always thought it was weird that he would be able to increase velocity that quickly. It seems like the "secret" would get out pretty quick of what he was doing.
I can get you 2 more mph on your fastball and all it costs you is your elbow and 18-months recovery

[The Federalist Engineer]

If only he had left us for Ole Miss, I would feel some satisfaction...he has costed us an awesome team

[Bass Chaser]

I thought someone mentioned weighted throws. Is that accurate?

[louisvilledawg]

I thought someone mentioned weighted throws. Is that accurate?

Yeah, i know last year he had pitchers warming up and doing drill with weighted balls (like small medicine balls.)

[Todd4State]

I think (and I'm taking an educated guess here as an occupational therapist who happens to also be a huge baseball fan) is that he probably "overdoses" the amount of weight too soon and that overloads the joints and it causes arm injuries.

Also- and I'm way oversimplifying here because there is a lot that goes into this- but a big part of increasing velocity safely involves strengthening the core and legs. Of course, proper pitching mechanics are huge as well.

Basically what it likely boils down to is too much too soon.

[Todd4State]

Yeah, i know last year he had pitchers warming up and doing drill with weighted balls (like small medicine balls.)

It's not so much the medicine balls as much as it is the weight of the medicine ball. If that makes sense. It would be like lifting a dumbbell that is too heavy for you at the gym and tearing your biceps tendon. Dumbbells are good in general to strengthen your biceps and other muscles- but if you lift one that is too heavy you risk injury then.

[Liverpooldawg]

If that's true he should be banned from coaching.

[Human Meat]

It is not all on Wes Johnson. His style of coaching just doesn't mesh well with this generation of weakened, overused arms. He does just fine with big strong guys like Dakota Hudson. He really does need to do a better job of evaluating and not just trying to add velocity to every kid. They are over-throwing.

[HSVDawg]

It is not all on Wes Johnson. His style of coaching just doesn't mesh well with this generation of weakened, overused arms. He does just fine with big strong guys like Dakota Hudson. He really does need to do a better job of evaluating and not just trying to add velocity to every kid. They are over-throwing.

He did "fine" with them because he didn't have to do anything with guys like Hudson and Houston. Those guys came in throwing like 95-96 mph and had stature and body type to support doing so repeatedly. Both of those guys are 6-4 / 6-5 plus with plenty of upper body strength. Also you had guys like Sexton that didn't see sharp increases in velocity that did fine as well because they continued to focus on location (which was a Butch emphasis). The pattern with all the injuries is that it has all been underclassmen. Almost like he took a more hands on approach with the new recruits, but left the older guys alone to keep from too much alteration to the routines and workouts that they had utilized for 2+ years under Butch. Wouldn't be surprised if the 3 Arkansas pitchers were young guys as well.

[Bothrops]

Wes Johnson is pipe bomb

[bulldogcountry1]

At least he left us for a division rival.

[MarketingBully]

So what is that for him, 10 in two years?

[Steakonastick]

It's what he does best. He's an orthopedic surgesons dream. Here kid I want you to start throwing weighted balls over and over again.

It's just like the juice box who tears something in the gym. His muscles are growing faster then his tendons and ligaments. Soon as his form slips there goes the tear. Or his eyes are bigger then his arms . So he puts to much weight on the bar and he has to cheat to get it up.

[Todd4State]

He did "fine" with them because he didn't have to do anything with guys like Hudson and Houston. Those guys came in throwing like 95-96 mph and had stature and body type to support doing so repeatedly. Both of those guys are 6-4 / 6-5 plus with plenty of upper body strength. Also you had guys like Sexton that didn't see sharp increases in velocity that did fine as well because they continued to focus on location (which was a Butch emphasis). The pattern with all the injuries is that it has all been underclassmen. Almost like he took a more hands on approach with the new recruits, but left the older guys alone to keep from too much alteration to the routines and workouts that they had utilized for 2+ years under Butch. Wouldn't be surprised if the 3 Arkansas pitchers were young guys as well.


I think the thing about the upperclassmen not getting hurt- you have to remember that those pitcher are also older and more developed as baseball players and physically than the underclassmen who have not filled out yet and are still learning how to pitch. So, in general an older player can be more aggressive with weights and things like that.

And you are correct that pitching program shouldn't be one sized fits all because everyone is built differently and also at different stages of development physically.

[Todd4State]

So what is that for him, 10 in two years?

I think it's 9 in the last 12 months.

[Bass Chaser]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/tommy-john-epidemic-elbow-surgery-glenn-fleisig-yu-darvish/

According to this article, I don't see how weighted throws can do anything but damage the UCL. You can't strengthen a ligament. While overuse may be the root cause of UCL/elbow soreness, the force on the UCL from weighted throws would be the last straw.

[The Federalist Engineer]

I think the thing about the upperclassmen not getting hurt- you have to remember that those pitcher are also older and more developed as baseball players and physically than the underclassmen who have not filled out yet and are still learning how to pitch. So, in general an older player can be more aggressive with weights and things like that.

And you are correct that pitching program shouldn't be one sized fits all because everyone is built differently and also at different stages of development physically.

All this information makes me think Pilkington and Cyr must be Supermen / War Horses to survive the Pitcher-Killer and will be awesome Juniors next season. You can go all the way in College Baseball with two big starters - I'm trying to find something positive in this disaster

[Todd4State]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/tommy-john-epidemic-elbow-surgery-glenn-fleisig-yu-darvish/

According to this article, I don't see how weighted throws can do anything but damage the UCL. You can't strengthen a ligament. While overuse may be the root cause of UCL/elbow soreness, the force on the UCL from weighted throws would be the last straw.

Again- it's not the weighted ball itself as much as how much weight is being thrown. You always want to start out light in the beginning and then progress gradually from there. I think what needs to be focused on first are mechanics and core and leg strengthening. They need to study pitchers that threw hard and didn't get hurt and try to replicate that. Nolan Ryan being an example- and I know that he did a LOT of leg and core strengthening even though it wasn't the thing to do at that time. Ryan also had outstanding mechanics. Assuming Aroldis Chapman doesn't get hurt he would be another good one to study potentially. And again with Champman- strong legs, strong core and good mechanics especially for someone with long arms and legs.

[Todd4State]

All this information makes me think Pilkington and Cyr must be Supermen / War Horses to survive the Pitcher-Killer and will be awesome Juniors next season. You can go all the way in College Baseball with two big starters - I'm trying to find something positive in this disaster

Let's just hope for the best. If you want to try to find a silver lining- obviously we're going to redshirt all of these pitchers except for Blake Smith. When they're healthy they will get a chance to pitch in a summer league some and then hopefully the 80% success rate of recovery holds true for us and we get to keep some quality pitchers a little bit longer and we might be able to get some good seasons out of them by their junior year. Which wasn't really any different than Butch when you think about as we had so many guys that struggled for two years and then all of a sudden were dominant their junior year.

[Barkman Turner Overdrive]

Has now had three pitchers go down to elbow injuries with two of them needing Tommy John surgery. Including a guy who was supposed to be their ace.

Midgets are bad luck. Wes Johnson is a midget. Never hire a midget.

https://hailstatebeat.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/unnamed-2.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/q-joerB4wDM/maxresdefault.jpg

[shoeless joe]

Again- it's not the weighted ball itself as much as how much weight is being thrown. You always want to start out light in the beginning and then progress gradually from there. I think what needs to be focused on first are mechanics and core and leg strengthening. They need to study pitchers that threw hard and didn't get hurt and try to replicate that. Nolan Ryan being an example- and I know that he did a LOT of leg and core strengthening even though it wasn't the thing to do at that time. Ryan also had outstanding mechanics. Assuming Aroldis Chapman doesn't get hurt he would be another good one to study potentially. And again with Champman- strong legs, strong core and good mechanics especially for someone with long arms and legs.

This is correct.

I'm not a fan of weighted balls. If a kid doesn't have rock solid mechanics it takes no time at all for damage to occur. Then add in a fatigued arm, which will create less sound mechanics, and it can be catastrophic...as we've seen. Being mechanically sound, using your lower body and understanding torque and core strength, are the keys to throwing hard...in addition to some God given ability. Movement and location is where it's at but everybody is so hung up on the radar gun and tryin to throw 90. It is not an easy battle to fight with folks that are paying big money for a washed up weekend warrior tryin to make a buck by increasing a 12 yr olds velocity without concern for that kids future well being.

[Dawg61]

Wes the Ripper

http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/jack_the_ripper-HD.jpg

[hailstate17]

I think y'all have it out for the guy. I would guess that every program in the country has at least one a year. Most have multiple a year. It's not just Wes. It's kids playing MLB seasons since they were 9

[Todd4State]

I think y'all have it out for the guy. I would guess that every program in the country has at least one a year. Most have multiple a year. It's not just Wes. It's kids playing MLB seasons since they were 9

I've defended Wes multiple times on here. Until today. One a year is reasonable. Six in a year is not.

[RougeDawg]

The issue is travel ball and year round baseball during the developmental years. They get overtaxed too young.

[Liverpooldawg]

The issue is travel ball and year round baseball during the developmental years. They get overtaxed too young.

THIS for sure. It needs to stop.

[Bass Chaser]

Again- it's not the weighted ball itself as much as how much weight is being thrown. You always want to start out light in the beginning and then progress gradually from there. I think what needs to be focused on first are mechanics and core and leg strengthening. They need to study pitchers that threw hard and didn't get hurt and try to replicate that. Nolan Ryan being an example- and I know that he did a LOT of leg and core strengthening even though it wasn't the thing to do at that time. Ryan also had outstanding mechanics. Assuming Aroldis Chapman doesn't get hurt he would be another good one to study potentially. And again with Champman- strong legs, strong core and good mechanics especially for someone with long arms and legs.

If you have a sore elbow, likely means already minor UCL damage, then add weighted throws it's a combination for disaster. If you read the article it talks about the UCL only being able to handle so much torque as it is. Unfortunately these tests are on cadavers so you can't conclude what the limit maybe.

I did read about an MD in St. Louis experimenting with a different surgery than TJ that may cut recovery in half.

[Todd4State]

If you have a sore elbow, likely means already minor UCL damage, then add weighted throws it's a combination for disaster. If you read the article it talks about the UCL only being able to handle so much torque as it is. Unfortunately these tests are on cadavers so you can't conclude what the limit maybe.

I did read about an MD in St. Louis experimenting with a different surgery than TJ that may cut recovery in half.

He'll have a lot of Cardinals pitchers to practice on.** Surgery in general is getting better and better and better. I'm not in sports medicine, but I do work with a lot of orthopedics patients- total hips, knees, shoulders, and whatever else can be broken as far as bones go...and when I started the hips and knees were staying in the hospital around five days or so. Now they get them out of the hospital in a day or two and some even do total hips on an outpatient basis. That's just an example and Tommy John has progressed itself over the years and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets better and better as well.

ACL tears are another common sports injury that has progressed a lot over the years.

Hopefully this MD in St. Louis will be successful.

[Todd4State]

The issue is travel ball and year round baseball during the developmental years. They get overtaxed too young.

I definitely think that's part of it. But in this case it's starting to look to me like Wes was a part of it too- and probably accelerated injuries.

[Bass Chaser]

Article about new procedure I thought was intriguing.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/maness-a-trailblazer-new-surgery-for-elbow-repair-cut-recovery/article_165ee721-5a36-58f9-8d8e-fb515ba037da.html

[dawgoneyall]

Lost count....how many pitchers have we lost to TJ surgery since the end of last baseball season.

And how many have we lost to various arm injuries since the end of last season.

[preachermatt83]

Wes will not be coaching baseball 3 years from now.

[Todd4State]

Article about new procedure I thought was intriguing.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/maness-a-trailblazer-new-surgery-for-elbow-repair-cut-recovery/article_165ee721-5a36-58f9-8d8e-fb515ba037da.html

That is interesting. Thank you for sharing.

[maroonmania]

Let's just hope for the best. If you want to try to find a silver lining- obviously we're going to redshirt all of these pitchers except for Blake Smith. When they're healthy they will get a chance to pitch in a summer league some and then hopefully the 80% success rate of recovery holds true for us and we get to keep some quality pitchers a little bit longer and we might be able to get some good seasons out of them by their junior year. Which wasn't really any different than Butch when you think about as we had so many guys that struggled for two years and then all of a sudden were dominant their junior year.

The problem is that it takes a good 2 years to come back full strength from TJ surgery (if you do) and by that time a pitcher has, for the most part, used up his college career time. If you get a guy back for 1 season or part of a season that shows the pros he is draftable then that guy is on the next train out of Starkville if he gets a chance before any more arm issues pop up.

[maroonmania]

Wes will not be coaching baseball 3 years from now.

I blame Gene. Didn't he "scare away" the Fullerton State pitching coach and then we had to go after Johnson? ***

[maroonmania]

I've defended Wes multiple times on here. Until today. One a year is reasonable. Six in a year is not.

Agree, its gone beyond what can be explained with just plain ol' bad luck.

[Tbonewannabe]

Again- it's not the weighted ball itself as much as how much weight is being thrown. You always want to start out light in the beginning and then progress gradually from there. I think what needs to be focused on first are mechanics and core and leg strengthening. They need to study pitchers that threw hard and didn't get hurt and try to replicate that. Nolan Ryan being an example- and I know that he did a LOT of leg and core strengthening even though it wasn't the thing to do at that time. Ryan also had outstanding mechanics. Assuming Aroldis Chapman doesn't get hurt he would be another good one to study potentially. And again with Champman- strong legs, strong core and good mechanics especially for someone with long arms and legs.

I know this is apples to oranges but I worked for a poultry producer that grew chickens up to 12 lbs. You would see damaged tendons in their legs because the muscle was growing so much faster than the tendon. It could be that the pitchers were putting on muscle so fast that the tendons and ligaments couldn't keep up.

[WPS]

@KendallRogersD1

A little more on @RazorbackBSB RHP Isaiah Campbell: Am told he will have an operation to remove calcium deposits from his arm. #WPS

This is the one that won't have TJ. Before the season it was reported he had a sore elbow from possible bone spurs

[Human Meat]

This is the one that won't have TJ. Before the season it was reported he had a sore elbow from possible bone spurs

Mini Me finished him off. Congratulations to your team surgeon, he should be busy the next few years.