Damn, Tommy John strikes again

[CadaverDawg]

Hearing rumors that Blake Smith requiring TJ.

Wes Johnson sucks

[ShotgunDawg]

Wes Johnson sucks

Completely uneducated opinion here.

[WSOPdawg]

Dang, it'll be interesting to see how his pitchers fare (hold up) at Arky. This is beyond crazy!

[CadaverDawg]

Completely uneducated opinion here.

Yep, could be big coincidence*

[MarketingBully]

Hearing rumors that Blake Smith requiring TJ.

Wes Johnson sucks

Would make sense regarding his struggles at least.

[msstate7]

Hearing rumors that Blake Smith requiring TJ.

Wes Johnson sucks

Is this a rumor to justify why he won't pitch for us again this year?**

[MarketingBully]

Tommy John cause is pitching velocity. What did Wes Johnson preach again?

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/si/edge/2016/06/14/fastballs-curveballs-tommy-john-surgery-mlb-youth-baseball-prevention%3Fsource%3Ddam

[ShotgunDawg]

Yep, could be big coincidence*

Well considering that Wes had barely any TJs in over a 5 year period at Dallas Baptist, it does in fact seem like a "coincidence".

People throw blame around about TJ just to have someone to blame, when neither MLB or the entire medical community can quite figured out why it happens.

[ShotgunDawg]

Tommy John cause is pitching velocity. What did Wes Johnson preach again?

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/si/edge/2016/06/14/fastballs-curveballs-tommy-john-surgery-mlb-youth-baseball-prevention%3Fsource%3Ddam

So you'd rather have pitchers that didn't throw with velocity?

Not sure I understand here. Your saying we should limit the ceiling of our players in order to save them from possibly having TJ?

[msstate7]

I guess this could explain how terrible smith has been, but wouldn't there be a loss in velocity? Seems pretty bad towards our coaches if we let a guy pitch needing TJ surgery... someone should've recognized a sign imo.

[MarketingBully]

So you'd rather have pitchers that didn't throw with velocity?

Not sure I understand here. Your saying we should limit the ceiling of our players in order to save them from possibly having TJ?

Nope but he preached velocity on top of everything else instead of developing secondary pitches and developing the pitcher as a whole. Not sure why you are defending a guy who wasn't even here for a full year.

[msstate7]

So you'd rather have pitchers that didn't throw with velocity?

Not sure I understand here. Your saying we should limit the ceiling of our players in order to save them from possibly having TJ?

Of course I don't want guys throwing 85; but given the choice of 90 and movement or 93, I'll take the movement

[Todd4State]

Well, the thing the medical community knows about it is UCL tears are a repetitive motion injury. So I think the medical community knows what causes it but we aren't sure what the cutoff is or how to pinpoint when it actually occurs.

The thing about velocity and Tommy John that is interesting is it's actually usually not velocity that goes first but command. See Blake Smith not being able to throw strikes Tuesday as exhibit A.

[HSVDawg]

Tommy John cause is pitching velocity. What did Wes Johnson preach again?

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/si/edge/2016/06/14/fastballs-curveballs-tommy-john-surgery-mlb-youth-baseball-prevention%3Fsource%3Ddam

No, its a combination of pitching velocity and pitching a lot of innings starting at an early age.

This same allegation goes back to every pitching coach we've ever had. I remember folks saying the same shit about Russ McNickle 10 years ago. This isn't a new problem. I haven't looked in full detail but I could make an educated guess that 30-40% of the pitchers we've signed in the last decade have required some sort of major arm or shoulder surgery within their first two years on campus. That spans 3 different pitching coaches. Unfortunately, our 2016 class seems more affected than most. We had a lot of good pitchers signed in that class. And guess what, the really good pitchers coming out of high school are 99% of the time the 7th grade phenoms that are playing travel ball 4 months out of the year while also pitching for their JV team. It's a bad problem that starts before these kids even have their balls drop, and its only getting worse every year with psycho parents leading the way. And its the best players that are the most affected.

[Todd4State]

Of course I don't want guys throwing 85; but given the choice of 90 and movement or 93, I'll take the movement

And of given the choice I would take 93 with movement. These guys ultimately aren't getting hurt with us. They're getting hurt trying to win the Grenada Lakes Travel Ball Tournament.

[CadaverDawg]

Well considering that Wes had barely any TJs in over a 5 year period at Dallas Baptist, it does in fact seem like a "coincidence".

People throw blame around about TJ just to have someone to blame, when neither MLB or the entire medical community can quite figured out why it happens.

I can play that game too....How many TJ's did we have during Butch's time before Wes? Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm not buying

[WSOPdawg]

And of given the choice I would take 93 with movement. These guys ultimately aren't getting hurt with us. They're getting hurt trying to win the Grenada Lakes Travel Ball Tournament.

I know other schools (the LSU's and Florida's) have the same TJ injuries, but do they have the number of them that we seem to have?

[MarketingBully]

No, its a combination of pitching velocity and pitching a lot of innings starting at an early age.

This same allegation goes back to every pitching coach we've ever had. I remember folks saying the same shit about Russ McNickle 10 years ago. This isn't a new problem. I haven't looked in full detail but I could make an educated guess that 30-40% of the pitchers we've signed in the last decade have required some sort of major arm or shoulder surgery within their first two years on campus. That spans 3 different pitching coaches. Unfortunately, our 2016 class seems more affected than most. We had a lot of good pitchers signed in that class. And guess what, the really good pitchers coming out of high school are 99% of the time the 7th grade phenoms that are playing travel ball 4 months out of the year while also pitching for their JV team. It's a bad problem that starts before these kids even have their balls drop, and its only getting worse every year with psycho parents leading the way. And its the best players that are the most affected.

Well, you just answered your question on the combination of what we are seeing here. Maybe with Johnson preaching velocity and on top of the wear and tear of what our 2016 class had already gone through it was an unfortunate combination of bad luck. His style was the perfect storm that broke the camels back so to speak that led to four or five of our pitchers from that class to having to get this surgery. With as many as we have right now, it's more then coincidence.

[shoeless joe]

I guess this could explain how terrible smith has been, but wouldn't there be a loss in velocity? Seems pretty bad towards our coaches if we let a guy pitch needing TJ surgery... someone should've recognized a sign imo.

How could the coach have known? Gotta be on the players to communicate...a lot of times a kid feels discomfort but doesn't want to admit it or just puts it in the "soreness" category. Then after a while when it gets worse or doesn't improve a trip to the doc ensues.

[Homedawg]

I can play that game too....How many TJ's did we have during Butch's time before Wes? Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm not buying

I don't think you can place all of the blame on Wes. Small had a terrible delivery and was a walking case of Tommy John from the start. I won't even say Wes is to blame on any of them. I will say it's a terrible coincidence and certainly makes you go hmm.... I think he would have to have numerous injuries year after year before you can say he's the major problem.

[CadaverDawg]

I don't think you can place all of the blame on Wes. Small had a terrible delivery and was a walking case of Tommy John from the start. I won't even say Wes is to blame on any of them. I will say it's a terrible coincidence and certainly makes you go hmm.... I think he would have to have numerous injuries year after year before you can say he's the major problem.

I agree, not All on Wes but strong coincidence makes me think a lot of it is Wes

[BankerDog]

I've heard some things about Breaux as well. I really wish we'd only send our guys who didn't pitch much or redshirted off during the summer for a month to play. Then have everyone else rest their arms, especially the freshman coming in.

These guys play a full season, two summer months, throw in the winter, and then again right before the season. It gets ridiculous and puts too much strain on the arm.

[HSVDawg]

I can play that game too....How many TJ's did we have during Butch's time before Wes? Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm not buying

We had Jesse McCord, Woodruff, Ben Bracewell, Forrest Moore, and too many others to name that had major arm injuries under Butch's regime. Whether or not it was Tommy John specifically is beside the point. Pitching too many innings has been named as the one overwhelming root cause for just about every major pitching injury out there in the elbow and shoulder, with some other smaller contributing factors like improper warmup or not doing correct bullpen sessions before a start.

[msstate7]

How could the coach have known? Gotta be on the players to communicate...a lot of times a kid feels discomfort but doesn't want to admit it or just puts it in the "soreness" category. Then after a while when it gets worse or doesn't improve a trip to the doc ensues.

As a braves and state fan, I should be an expert on TJ, but I'm not. I figured velocity would be down and of course accuracy. Seems a coach that times their pitching all the time would catch the loss in velocity and accuracy. Todd said velocity isn't always down though, so I was wrong in my assumption

[lamont]

Breaux could be next

[preachermatt83]

Completely uneducated opinion here.

U are insane. Wes Johnson is warped in the way he teaches arm motion. It causes injuries and u are blind if u don't see that.

[MetEdDawg]

Well, the thing the medical community knows about it is UCL tears are a repetitive motion injury. So I think the medical community knows what causes it but we aren't sure what the cutoff is or how to pinpoint when it actually occurs.

The thing about velocity and Tommy John that is interesting is it's actually usually not velocity that goes first but command. See Blake Smith not being able to throw strikes Tuesday as exhibit A.

Tommy John is more appropriately use over a length of time. Dr. Andrews has said repeatedly that today's kids have so many more arm injuries because they never take time off from resting. The play school ball where throwing typically begins in November and pitching starts in December or January. Then you go through May. After school ball, kids go immediately to travel ball and pitch through August or September. Then they play fall ball or continue travel ball until school starts back up.

Point is, kids never take breaks anymore. Add to that the number of kids playing football and basketball and you are adding bad baseball workouts, hits, shots, etc on the arm. Today's kids never stop. And unfortunately it will only get worse because the travel circuit is where scouts come now. They don't go to schools as often anymore. That's going to continue to feed the travel ball culture.

[msstate7]

Wonder if in our lifetimes we'll see a synthetic ligament used in TJ surgery

[ShotgunDawg]

U are insane. Wes Johnson is warped in the way he teaches arm motion. It causes injuries and u are blind if u don't see that.

LOL. I'll spare you.

[lamont]

LOL. I'll spare you.

hahaha...thats funny. At least he didnt call you a middle school coach

[KB21]

The big key to UCL injuries is too much competitive pitching at a young age, not just throwing. In fact, throwing daily when you are doing long toss strengthens the arm. When a pitcher is throwing from a mound though and using max effort, the fact that he is on a mound creates about 7 times more strain on the arm than throwing from flat ground.

What we have are parents who are having their children focus too much on baseball at a young age. This wasn't a game that was made to play year round, particularly as a pitcher.

Heck, I've even seen some female softball players in my clinic with elbow pain.

[mstatefan91]

Angle and velocity have a lot to do with it.

[mstatefan91]

And of given the choice I would take 93 with movement. These guys ultimately aren't getting hurt with us. They're getting hurt trying to win the Grenada Lakes Travel Ball Tournament.

Yep. Arm angle, repetition, and how hard you throw are all factors. These guys are basically playing year round now... repetition is a likely culprit.

[smootness]

I said when he was hired I was really wary of the focus on max effort and max velocity above all. I was told that Wes Johnson knew what he was doing and wasn't just telling his guys to throw harder.

I still think it is a bad philosophy, and while you can't just say that Wes Johnson causes TJ and that without him these guys would all be fine, it's more than a little suspect. I don't think it is a healthy philosophy, and I do think you'll see something similar at Arkansas soon.

[I seen it dawg]

So what everyone is saying...it sounds like that if a pitcher who was very effective all of a sudden isn't then there may be an arm issue...not that he just all of a sudden sucks. Makes sense...

[BB30]

I had a partial ucl tear in pro ball and was told it was mechanical issues from college and over use from my younger years. Mechanics plays a large role. I also think over use at a young age and through highschool is just as much of a factor as mechanics. When the body tires it puts more stress on tendons and ligaments in the shoulder and elbow. A lot of highschool coaches will ride their ace in the playoffs and start him game 1 let him go 7 and bring him back to close one of the next games. Private schools in Mississippi have actually gone to a designated pitch count this year. The more popular travel baseball gets the more we will see this. Kids just playing baseball year around aren't developing complimentary muscles that can take some of the stress. I personally believe that kids should play in the spring/summer and pick something else up in fall and winter to give the arm a break.

[Ari Gold]

How bout not having kids ages 6-13 playing more games a calander year than a ****ing major leaguer does.
With dads that Have no business coaching and some of the ones that do think every weekend is the ****ing World Series.

[MrKotter]

Completely uneducated opinion here.
Everyone of your post are ignorant, uneducated opinions

[mparkerfd20]

Hmmm Blake has Tommy John huh? That might explain why he sucked the other night.

[smootness]

Hmmm Blake has Tommy John huh? That might explain why he sucked the other night.

Haha Tommy John isn't the name of the ailment.

[ShotgunDawg]

Everyone of your post are ignorant, uneducated opinions

That's what my boss says as well....

[NewDawg]

Wow! That's 6. Ridiculous and shameful. #1Can't throw wb every day #2 he found out he was one year only early and checked out on all but the top two.

[shoeless joe]

I had a partial ucl tear in pro ball and was told it was mechanical issues from college and over use from my younger years. Mechanics plays a large role. I also think over use at a young age and through highschool is just as much of a factor as mechanics. When the body tires it puts more stress on tendons and ligaments in the shoulder and elbow. A lot of highschool coaches will ride their ace in the playoffs and start him game 1 let him go 7 and bring him back to close one of the next games. Private schools in Mississippi have actually gone to a designated pitch count this year. The more popular travel baseball gets the more we will see this. Kids just playing baseball year around aren't developing complimentary muscles that can take some of the stress. I personally believe that kids should play in the spring/summer and pick something else up in fall and winter to give the arm a break.

MHSAA has instituted a pitch count limit and mandatory days rest this year.

[lamont]

MHSAA has instituted a pitch count limit and mandatory days rest this year.

yeah- thats ridiculous

[shoeless joe]

yeah- thats ridiculous

I thought so too at first. But I've changed my mind. In the long run it will benefit the individual kids. It's forcing teams to develop more depth and will prevent one team with one studd from abusing that kid for the sake of a win or a playoff series victory. It is going to tax your smaller schools much more than your bigger school however. This weekend kicked off the regular season for high school baseball in MS and I've already seen several instances of blatant over use by coaches even with this new rule.

[NewDawg]

I don't think you can place all of the blame on Wes. Small had a terrible delivery and was a walking case of Tommy John from the start. I won't even say Wes is to blame on any of them. I will say it's a terrible coincidence and certainly makes you go hmm.... I think he would have to have numerous injuries year after year before you can say he's the major problem.

Did you watch Fall ball last year? I did. Those kids looked great including Small. It wasn't until Johnson checked out that Hughes Breaux and small started having issues. Every program has some Injuries but this is too many in one class. It hurts us this year.

[Todd4State]

Tommy John is more appropriately use over a length of time. Dr. Andrews has said repeatedly that today's kids have so many more arm injuries because they never take time off from resting. The play school ball where throwing typically begins in November and pitching starts in December or January. Then you go through May. After school ball, kids go immediately to travel ball and pitch through August or September. Then they play fall ball or continue travel ball until school starts back up.

Point is, kids never take breaks anymore. Add to that the number of kids playing football and basketball and you are adding bad baseball workouts, hits, shots, etc on the arm. Today's kids never stop. And unfortunately it will only get worse because the travel circuit is where scouts come now. They don't go to schools as often anymore. That's going to continue to feed the travel ball culture.

MLB started some showcases of their own this year and a couple of our commits went- Tanner Allen and I think Jordan Anderson- to try to stem some of the travel ball culture but I'm afraid it's too little too late. I think the best course of action at this point is education and partnering with Perfect Game to limit pitch counts.

[HoopsDawg]

MLB started some showcases of their own this year and a couple of our commits went- Tanner Allen and I think Jordan Anderson- to try to stem some of the travel ball culture but I'm afraid it's too little too late. I think the best course of action at this point is education and partnering with Perfect Game to limit pitch counts.

One thing I don't like about USSSA is they have inning limits but not pitch count limits. 8 innings per weekend is the limit but an 11 year old kid can throw a lot of pitches in 8 innings.

[msstate7]

One thing I don't like about USSSA is they have inning limits but not pitch count limits. 8 innings per weekend is the limit but an 11 year old kid can throw a lot of pitches in 8 innings.

That's a dumb rule. I've seen 100 pitches in 5 innings

[Bass Chaser]

Here's an article a person on 247 found on TJ surgery and injuries.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/tommy-john-epidemic-elbow-surgery-glenn-fleisig-yu-darvish/

[HoopsDawg]

That's a dumb rule. I've seen 100 pitches in 5 innings

Yep, and some coaches will pitch their ace the last 2 innings of a semi-final game and all 6 inning of the championship game back to back. This is at 12 years old. So imagine their arms when they are 19-20.