Softball

[preachermatt83]

The MSU softball season begins tomorrow. This is a make or break year for vann in my opinion. I'm afraid her absolute inability to recruit, even with a beautiful new park, is going to be our downfall. It's tourney or bust this year and she knows it. Cohen won't let the ship completely sink.

[DogStuckAtUM]

Yep. All signs pointed to a very promising year in 2016, but as soon as they got to the conference schedule...oof.

[Cooterpoot]

You do realize she's got 2 top 5/10 classes coming in the next couple of years right? 2017 class is ranked #4 in the country and has 6 top 200 players.

[smootness]

You do realize she's got 2 top 5/10 classes coming in the next couple of years right? 2017 class is ranked #4 in the country and has 6 top 200 players.

I was about to say, I thought her recruiting had been really good.

[blacklistedbully]

Dude...Vann has got our ladies into the NCAA tourney every year except last year, and every year there have been either 6 or 7 SEC teams as National Seeds.

Like in a lot of sports, the SEC is BRUTAL in softball. And in 2016, Silkwood, our stud pitcher was coming off an injury, and never seemed to regain her pre-injury form.

In softball, having a stud ACE is absolutely crucial.

Vann is doing just fine, and we are damned lucky to have her.

[BulldogBear]

We pulled the #4 class this year. I've let softball sneak up on me a bit this year. I had intended to do a preseason thread but I've been at the farm every weekend recently with hunting and work projects. Our young stable of pitchers has a season under our belt this year plus Holly Ward is a veteran now and then there is Silkwood. I think we will be a much improved team this season but they still may mean #7-#10 in the SEC.

[Cooterpoot]

I predict we finish next to last in the SEC (ahead of AR). I don't think it will be a great year this year. We just don't have the talent right now and all the other schools have improved. But after this year, we should start to see the improvement. Just about that whole 2017 class will start as freshmen.
Admittedly, I'm not a huge Vann fan. Just don't care for some of the silliness she exudes. I do think Bratton and Ricketts are good coaches though and Vann is good with the pitchers.

[fader2103]

I don't think we will finish below UM in softball.

[preachermatt83]

Recruiting ranking in softball are an absolute joke. Half the "talent" she's brought in is not panning out at all.

[preachermatt83]

The best player in ms the year before last was not even visited by vann.

[Cooterpoot]

You have little understanding of softball recruiting. And where is this best player in MS two years ago? She's not even on a college team now. The good classes start with 2017. The problem is the lack of talent in previous years. We picked up some transfers that help a couple years ago but that's dried up. But they appear to have corrected that. The 2017 class is legit.

[Cooterpoot]

I don't think we will finish below UM in softball.

I think UM finishes top 10 maybe top 8 in the SEC this year. Depends on if the transfers pan out.

[preachermatt83]

You have little understanding of softball recruiting. And where is this best player in MS two years ago? She's not even on a college team now. The good classes start with 2017. The problem is the lack of talent in previous years. We picked up some transfers that help a couple years ago but that's dried up. But they appear to have corrected that. The 2017 class is legit.

lol, I have a pretty good understanding of softball recruiting and I'm telling you she has put very little legit talent on the field in starkville. Evaluating a high school age softball player is very difficult. It takes a ton of work and vann has not proven she can do it. It cannot be done it strictly by camps. You have to be at every showcase tournament you can and watch kids over and over again. I hope she can do it but hasn't shown it yet. Now could that be changing? Sure ! And I hope it does but thus far it's been atrocious. Another year like last year and she's done.

[fader2103]

MS softball isn't quite on the level of other states where we recruit. That's why you don't see many MS players on D1 college teams.

[preachermatt83]

MS softball isn't quite on the level of other states where we recruit. That's why you don't see many MS players on D1 college teams.

True but it's getting better in a hurry.

[BulldogBear]

Breakdown of roster by state:

Alabama - 6 (one is actually a transfer from Pensacola State)
California - 1
Georgia - 4
Illinois - 1
Iowa - 1
Maryland - 1
Mississippi - 5
North Carolina - 2
South Carolina - 1
Texas - 1 (though actually a transfer from UPig)
Virginia - 1

[BulldogBear]

I don't think we will finish below UM in softball.

For what it's worth we don't draw the Beardsharkettes in conference play this season. You play eight 3 game weekend series in the SEC. There are no permanent opponents in the rotation. We do play Ole Miss in a one-off Wednesday night non conference game like we did LSU in 2015.

[curmudgeon]

As other have said, the recruiting has been good on paper, but hasn't panned out and it caught up with us last year. I see us being improved this year, but not an NCAA team. We just don't have the pitching.

Mississippi high school softball is bad. Way too many bad coaches. It is improving some, but its still way behind Alabama, not to mention Texas and California. One problem we have is that we are the ONLY state that still sponsors slow pitch softball as a sanctioned sport. So while other states' players are playing competitive fall ball, Mississippi players are playing church league softball. The first step in making MS softball better is getting rid of slow pitch.

Then you have to look at club softball. Looking at the Top 50 ASA 18U Gold teams, there isn't a Mississippi team to be seen. 18U Gold is where your good D1 players play. The next step down is 18U, and you fill your roster with these teams. This is where most of the better Southern teams play. 5 of the top 7 teams are from Alabama or Tennessee. No Mississippi teams ranked in the top 300.

Softball, despite its exponential growth, is still an afterthought in Mississippi. That's why you have bad coaches. There aren't that many schools that really care about it. Volleyball and swimming have the same issue, but the difference is that there are some pretty decent club teams to make up for the shortfalls in high school coaching.

Anecdote: Our kids go to Germantown. The first four years of the school, they had a volleyball team and they sucked. Te fifth year, a 22 year old girl that played at Millsaps started teaching at the middle school, and hey let her coach volleyball. Went to the state championship immediately.

[Cooterpoot]

True but it's getting better in a hurry.

It's not really. Other than the number playing. MS has a ton of daddy ball travel teams that have no recruiting connections. There's very little quality instruction. How many MS teams play in CA? I don't believe their was a single MS team in the PGF championship this past summer. There's not much legit pitching in MS. No legit tournaments either. Go look at the Batbusters facility and what they do in CA. There's nothing remotely close to it in MS.

[Cooterpoot]

As other have said, the recruiting has been good on paper, but hasn't panned out and it caught up with us last year. I see us being improved this year, but not an NCAA team. We just don't have the pitching.

Mississippi high school softball is bad. Way too many bad coaches. It is improving some, but its still way behind Alabama, not to mention Texas and California. One problem we have is that we are the ONLY state that still sponsors slow pitch softball as a sanctioned sport. So while other states' players are playing competitive fall ball, Mississippi players are playing church league softball. The first step in making MS softball better is getting rid of slow pitch.

Then you have to look at club softball. Looking at the Top 50 ASA 18U Gold teams, there isn't a Mississippi team to be seen. 18U Gold is where your good D1 players play. The next step down is 18U, and you fill your roster with these teams. This is where most of the better Southern teams play. 5 of the top 7 teams are from Alabama or Tennessee. No Mississippi teams ranked in the top 300.

Softball, despite its exponential growth, is still an afterthought in Mississippi. That's why you have bad coaches. There aren't that many schools that really care about it. Volleyball and swimming have the same issue, but the difference is that there are some pretty decent club teams to make up for the shortfalls in high school coaching.

Anecdote: Our kids go to Germantown. The first four years of the school, they had a volleyball team and they sucked. Te fifth year, a 22 year old girl that played at Millsaps started teaching at the middle school, and hey let her coach volleyball. Went to the state championship immediately.

ASA is 2nd tier. It's no longer the big dog in softball. PGF (not the MS version) is the real ball now. Diamond 9 has a big tournament. The DiMarini in Chicago is a big one. Very few of the top teams play ASA much. Chattanooga has one big one that pulls a few teams and the money tournament pulled a few teams. It's all run by the power organizations now.

[Really Clark?]

ASA is 2nd tier. It's no longer the big dog in softball. PGF (not the MS version) is the real ball now. Diamond 9 has a big tournament. The DiMarini in Chicago is a big one. Very few of the top teams play ASA much. Chattanooga has one big one that pulls a few teams and the money tournament pulled a few teams. It's all run by the power organizations now.

Agree and to add, SEC teams are not recruiting and committing players from 18U the vast majority of the time. 14U-16U is the recruiting years. Some of the premium 18U teams are put together from already commited players to D1 schools. Obviously there are exceptions, but the majority of Power 5 schools and even many tourney D1 schools are not looking at 18U uncommitted players to make up their recruiting class.

As far as talent in state, there are SEC caliber players here but right now you can't make a complete team from just MS. The starting catcher for Bama was a freshman last year from Mississippi. One of the best players we had a few years ago went to ULL and should have had better looks from the big in state schools but she didn't play full time at big national tournaments. Mainly stayed with an instate organization. Might have been because of money. One of the better players in state right now is committed to Missouri. The girl who played for Texas Tech then transferred to Tenn was from MS. There is talent, just the numbers are not enough.

[Cooterpoot]

Yep. And Dykes @ AL was a MSU legacy that Vann insulted with a terrible offer. 18U premier teams are all committed kids. There're put together mostly by schools who place them. We place with the Thunderbolts a lot. We were using The Lady Lightening too. It's one big cartel. And MS is completely on the outside.
We missed on Quinn at LSU from Oak Grove too.

[Really Clark?]

Yep. And Dykes @ AL was a MSU legacy that Vann insulted with a terrible offer. 18U premier teams are all committed kids. There're put together mostly by schools who place them. We place with the Thunderbolts a lot. We were using The Lady Lightening too. It's one big cartel. And MS is completely on the outside.
We missed on Quinn at LSU from Oak Grove too.

I agree but Reagan had her eye on Bama and playing for a national title for a long time as well. A better offer from us would have helped a good bit but Bama was big deal to her. Her sister was a good player at William Carey and her younger brother has a nice stroke as well.

[Cooterpoot]

The kid we just committed from VA has a MS connection. Her mom is from Columbia. The kid from Leake is a great athlete. The 1B from AL coming in this year has a parent with a recruiting network. The young lady who has dealt with cancer is lights out. Hope she comes back strong. Was tough seeing her just watching in California.

[Really Clark?]

The kid we just committed from VA has a MS connection. Her mom is from Columbia. The kid from Leake is a great athlete. The 1B from AL coming in this year has a parent with a recruiting network. The young lady who has dealt with cancer is lights out. Hope she comes back strong. Was tough seeing her just watching in California.

Yep. Better caliber recruits all around coming in with this class. In this state there are some solid girls coming up in the 2019-2021 classes. Hopefully a few of them take a good next step forward. Speaking of Columbia, the Thunderbolts just picked up a girl from there.

[Cooterpoot]

Yep. Better caliber recruits all around coming in with this class. In this state there are some solid girls coming up in the 2019-2021 classes. Hopefully a few of them take a good next step forward. Speaking of Columbia, the Thunderbolts just picked up a girl from there.

Only kid I know there played for Germantown or Voo Doo but she's hurt, so not sure who it would be if not her.
She's a 9th grader I think. Would have to be a young kid.

[Really Clark?]

Only kid I know there played for Germantown and Voo Doo but she's hurt, so not sure who it would be if not her.
She's a 9th grader I think. Would have to be a young kid.

There were 2 girls from Columbia who played for Voodoo last year but one moved on to the Thunderbolts. She is the one that is hurt. I think she may be a 10th grader.

[preachermatt83]

Yep. And Dykes @ AL was a MSU legacy that Vann insulted with a terrible offer. 18U premier teams are all committed kids. There're put together mostly by schools who place them. We place with the Thunderbolts a lot. We were using The Lady Lightening too. It's one big cartel. And MS is completely on the outside.
We missed on Quinn at LSU from Oak Grove too.

Exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking bout. Good post

[Cooterpoot]

Exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking bout. Good post

Things have changed the last couple of years though. We're getting a lot better players starting with 2017. I think we have to see what happens with that group of kids before we push Vann out. And like I said, I'm not a Vann fan at all. I know several former players that don't like her too. But, she's been ok and this class coming in should....should....get her over the hump a little. If not, fire her.

[Really Clark?]

A lot depends on this year with Vann. We should be better but it was a shame to miss the SEC tournament at home last year. I know you had the injury to Silkwood but our hitting was atrocious. If we bounce back well this year, with what we have coming in, we should make a step forward. But the leash is very short if it was me.

Honestly, there are (or were I should say) 2-3 coaches in this state that are better than both the SEC coaches. I would hire one of them in a heart beat.

[Cooterpoot]

A lot depends on this year with Vann. We should be better but it was a shame to miss the SEC tournament at home last year. I know you had the injury to Silkwood but our hitting was atrocious. If we bounce back well this year, with what we have coming in, we should make a step forward. But the leash is very short if it was me.

Honestly, there are (or were I should say) 2-3 coaches in this state that are better than both the SEC coaches. I would hire one of them in a heart beat.

The best coach in MS is Mike Smith's primary assistant IMO. The best players coach is Wendy Hogue. Kids love her. She's the anti-Vann.

[Cooterpoot]

Mike Smith has a direct line to Stith, who is probably the most powerful person in softball. Stith helps him get kids. UM has better players that State. Their depth was a problem last year, and had Lunderman not left, it would've been much improved this year. Just have to wait and see with Lunderman quitting.

[Really Clark?]

The best coach in MS is Mike Smith's primary assistant IMO. The best players coach is Wendy Hogue. Kids love her. She's the anti-Vann.

I agree completely. Both of those were who I was talking about. Wendy is a good teacher of the game as well. She is turning out some pretty descent coaches and instructors. Rick Freeman is a good coach as well. Did a good job at JSU and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets SELA on solid ground pretty quick. He is trying to get his roster turned over pretty quick. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets offered a bigger job sooner rather than later. Fletcher has done a nice job keeping Carey steady.

[Really Clark?]

Mike Smith has a direct line to Stith, who is probably the most powerful person in softball. Stith helps him get kids. UM has better players that State. Their depth was a problem last year, and had Lunderman not left, it would've been much improved this year. Just have to wait and see with Lunderman quitting.

There are rumblings that more than just Lunderman are having issues with Smith. But he does have great connections for players.

[KB21]

As other have said, the recruiting has been good on paper, but hasn't panned out and it caught up with us last year. I see us being improved this year, but not an NCAA team. We just don't have the pitching.

Mississippi high school softball is bad. Way too many bad coaches. It is improving some, but its still way behind Alabama, not to mention Texas and California. One problem we have is that we are the ONLY state that still sponsors slow pitch softball as a sanctioned sport. So while other states' players are playing competitive fall ball, Mississippi players are playing church league softball. The first step in making MS softball better is getting rid of slow pitch.

Then you have to look at club softball. Looking at the Top 50 ASA 18U Gold teams, there isn't a Mississippi team to be seen. 18U Gold is where your good D1 players play. The next step down is 18U, and you fill your roster with these teams. This is where most of the better Southern teams play. 5 of the top 7 teams are from Alabama or Tennessee. No Mississippi teams ranked in the top 300.

Softball, despite its exponential growth, is still an afterthought in Mississippi. That's why you have bad coaches. There aren't that many schools that really care about it. Volleyball and swimming have the same issue, but the difference is that there are some pretty decent club teams to make up for the shortfalls in high school coaching.

Anecdote: Our kids go to Germantown. The first four years of the school, they had a volleyball team and they sucked. Te fifth year, a 22 year old girl that played at Millsaps started teaching at the middle school, and hey let her coach volleyball. Went to the state championship immediately.

This. Most of your soft ball coaches in Mississippi are assistant coaches from other sports. Heck, my father in law was the head softball coach at McComb for years. He was also an assistant football coach, so that basically means you can't work with your girls year round.

[Really Clark?]

This. Most of your soft ball coaches in Mississippi are assistant coaches from other sports. Heck, my father in law was the head softball coach at McComb for years. He was also an assistant football coach, so that basically means you can't work with your girls year round.

That's true but there is change on that more and more. Just depends on the school but you are seeing more effort to bring in softball coaches from girls who have high level experience in college or at least JUCO in the assistant ranks which should open up more softball specific HC and more baseball only guys are transitioning to softball. But like everything else, the change is slow and slow pitch is a hinderance as well. Although more and more schools are opting out of slow pitch for Volleyball.

[Cooterpoot]

Freeman is a good coach but he would have to change his philosophy to play in the SEC. He's always been a short game, run the bases kind of guy and that will not work in the SEC. Both Freeman and Hogue would have to get in with the elite organizations to recruit effectively in the SEC and that would be a huge mountain to climb. These days, you almost have to consult with the PGF powers to get a coach who they'll send their top talent to. UM gets the next level kids from those organizations. They don't get the top kids. We just got the best the Thunderbolts have to offer for 2017, minus a couple kids. And one other kid is a legit stud too but I can't remember which organization she's coming from.
I don't know much about Fletcher. Haven't really been around him much. I know Carey has a couple of high level players coming in this year or next year. But I haven't really kept up with them since Wendy left.

[Really Clark?]

Freeman is a good coach but he would have to change his philosophy to play in the SEC. He's always been a short game, run the bases kind of guy and that will not work in the SEC. Both Freeman and Hogue would have to get in with the elite organizations to recruit effectively in the SEC and that would be a huge mountain to climb. These days, you almost have to consult with the PGF powers to get a coach who they'll send their top talent to. UM gets the next level kids from those organizations. They don't get the top kids. We just got the best the Thunderbolts have to offer for 2017, minus a couple kids. And one other kid is a legit stud too but I can't remember which organization she's coming from.
I don't know much about Fletcher. Haven't really been around him much. I know Carey has a couple of high level players coming in this year or next year. But I haven't really kept up with them since Wendy left.

Good point with Freeman but I think he is adaptable and a good coach usually is a good student of the game against their competition. They both would have to adjust their recruiting but have been really good at bringing in players to help shore up deficiencies quickly for turn around and then the platform builds from there. I believe they could both develop the relationships to do so. And Wendy has some of that already. Just never been at a spot where it made sense for the player to select her school over some bigger programs. But her track record of fast and significant turn around in a program would make it interesting. Obviously it would be much harder in this league. Fletcher is good and recruits well. JCJC has some good coaches for that level. Really good young hitting coach that will be getting bigger offers really soon.

[Cooterpoot]

Juco softball isn't good. In fact, outside of maybe 3 teams a year in the region, it's horrible. I think you're going to see juco ball decline some with the coaches you mentioned pulling the MS talent and they're very limited on what they can get out of state (normally they look for a pitcher). Carlos has already had juco offers for baseball. I feel like he's waiting for Halford at Carey to retire and go back to the baseball side or a hitting coach job with a bigger college. I don't see him coaching college softball.

[Really Clark?]

Juco softball isn't good. In fact, outside of maybe 3 teams a year in the region, it's horrible. I think you're going to see juco ball decline some with the coaches you mentioned pulling the MS talent and they're very limited on what they can get out of state (normally they look for a pitcher). Carlos has already had juco offers for baseball. I feel like he's waiting for Halford at Carey to retire and go back to the baseball side or a hitting coach job with a bigger college. I don't see him coaching college softball.

Yep. And Carlos has turned down some offers because he likes where he is at. And I agree he very likely goes back to baseball. Just mentioning him as a good young hitting coach coming up. He likes working with the girls to though, so if he gets the right opportunity in softball he may stay. But it's about the right opportunity and he likes where he is right now. And he is wanting to stay until Christian graduates unless it's a really good job opening. I don't see him still at Jones past next year though. Look for a 4 college to pick him up really soon as a hitting coach.

As far as JUCO ball, I tend to agree. You will have a couple of good teams and the rest are just fielding a team from their area of next level players. The ones that are good recruit well across the state and out of state because they have a reputation of their players moving on to 4 year schools. But it will be very limited. There are girls playing JUCO ball at several schools that really are just average. And finding good pitching is very difficult for them.

[preachermatt83]

Hard to beat Trae Embry. He's been offered the biggest HS jobs in the state. Only way he's leaving is for College job.

[Cooterpoot]

I don't know his qualifications, but I'd think he'd have juco offers if he's got the required qualifications. He's not getting anything bigger than that.

[CadaverDawg]

Sorry, didn't see this thread when I made mine. My apologies

[Cooterpoot]

Looking at our starting lineup.........it sucks. We have no hitters. Caroline is just about it and she's no 3 hole hitter (too many Ks). Hopefully she's fully recovered and ready this year. I don't think this team can hit their way out of a wet paper sack.

[Tbonewannabe]

Softball might be tougher than football. Most of the SEC is in the top 25 most of the last few years. What is a reasonable expectation for softball at MSU? I haven't really kept up with it too much.

[Really Clark?]

Looking at our starting lineup.........it sucks. We have no hitters. Caroline is just about it and she's no 3 hole hitter (too many Ks). Hopefully she's fully recovered and ready this year. I don't think this team can hit their way out of a wet paper sack.

Hopefully the transfer Harrison can help with some production. Part of the problem for Caroline last year was no protection behind her, at all. Interested to see if Bell has made a big improvement behind Caroline. If not the 4 hole is going to be a major issue again. If we hit around .250 again as a team, it will be a long year again.

[Really Clark?]

Lead off double and we can't score Bailey

[Cooterpoot]

Harrison will be up and down. She's streaky both ways.

[preachermatt83]

I don't know his qualifications, but I'd think he'd have juco offers if he's got the required qualifications. He's not getting anything bigger than that.

Juco pay is a joke for coaches.

[BulldogBear]

Softball might be tougher than football. Most of the SEC is in the top 25 most of the last few years. What is a reasonable expectation for softball at MSU? I haven't really kept up with it too much.

At this point #9-#12. Our younger pitchers have a year of experience now and if they really can step up and give Silkwood some help then maybe we do a little better.

The problem is that if we think the SEC is dominant in football and baseball, it's nothing compared softball. Best of the NCAA is the SEC and maybe 7-8 otheres. That's it. The gap between the top 15-20 and the rest of the field is huge, much like NCAAW basketball.

[Cooterpoot]

Based on what I was this weekend, we will finish in the bottom 3 in the SEC this year. Worst hitting SEC team I've seen, not named Arkansas.

[Tbonewannabe]

Based on what I was this weekend, we will finish in the bottom 3 in the SEC this year. Worst hitting SEC team I've seen, not named Arkansas.

Vann's specialty is pitching correct? Are we deficit in hitting coaching or is it talent level?

[Cooterpoot]

Talent is bad.

[mparkerfd20]

After this weekend it's proof positive we can't hit for shit. Vann is gone after this year at this pace.

[preachermatt83]

After this weekend it's proof positive we can't hit for shit. Vann is gone after this year at this pace.

Yup

[BulldogBear]

After this weekend it's proof positive we can't hit for shit. Vann is gone after this year at this pace.

Possibly