Couple of Interesting Recruiting Trends

[dawgday166]

Take a look at 2014 - 2017 recruiting rankings (247 Sports). Specifically check out Clemson's & Washington's rankings.

Clemson in mid teens every year and almost never signs the full 25. This year they signed only 14.

Washington is right about where we're at every year. Every year.

Penn St. was interesting too.

Looking at those rankings kinda disappoints me a little bit more about the last 2 years' results at MSU.

But that's ok. Dan's gonna turn this thing around now and in 2 years we gonna be whupping up on everybody and when we travel to TTown we gonna smack Bammer right in the damn mouth.

Last 3 years we finished 18, 24, and 28 in recruiting. 2015 class will be seniors or RS juniors in 2018. All the jucos from this year will be seniors.

And yes, I'm serious ... this is what should happen if Dan is half the coach everyone seems to think he is. No excuses.

Just to add something ... I'm not buying into the "We play in the mighty SEC West" mantra either.

[msstate7]

Compare recruiting rankings of the teams you mentioned within their conference division

[dawgday166]

But Dan's a better coach and developer than the SEC W coaches minus Saban (and maybe Ogre's Coordinators ... we'll see). Or so everyone says. I'm just saying 2018 will prove it or not.

Only 2 teams in the West have significant superior talent to us in West each year ... Bammer and LSU.

Clemson finishes significantly below FL St. every year. Wash finishes below Oregon & Stanford in division, and USC in conference. Penn St. vs. Ohio St. and Mich ... really?

[lamont]

2018 should be our year

[msstate7]

Penn state has finished 4th, 2nd, 4th, and 3rd in big 10 the last 4 years. We haven't finished 4th in our division during that time. Having 4 perennial top 10 recruiting teams and the biggest cheating school in the country in your division makes it tough to build. Despite that and our down year, we're 26-14 the last 3 years and penn state is 24-15 and Washington is 27-14 and Clemson is just far superior to all the teams mentioned

[Dawgology]

Penn state has finished 4th, 2nd, 4th, and 3rd in big 10 the last 4 years. We haven't finished 4th in our division during that time. Having 4 perennial top 10 recruiting teams and the biggest cheating school in the country in your division makes it tough to build. Despite that and our down year, we're 26-14 the last 3 years and penn state is 24-15 and Washington is 27-14 and Clemson is just far superior to all the teams mentioned

We finished 2nd in 2014....

[msstate7]

We finished 2nd in 2014....

Recruiting wise

[Dawgology]

Recruiting wise

Ok, I misunderstood. Was wondering how you had forgotten that season.

[ILOATHEBears]

Take a look at 2014 - 2017 recruiting rankings (247 Sports). Specifically check out Clemson's & Washington's rankings.

Clemson in mid teens every year and almost never signs the full 25. This year they signed only 14.

Washington is right about where we're at every year. Every year.

Penn St. was interesting too.

Looking at those rankings kinda disappoints me a little bit more about the last 2 years' results at MSU.

But that's ok. Dan's gonna turn this thing around now and in 2 years we gonna be whupping up on everybody and when we travel to TTown we gonna smack Bammer right in the damn mouth.

Last 3 years we finished 18, 24, and 28 in recruiting. 2015 class will be seniors or RS juniors in 2018. All the jucos from this year will be seniors.

And yes, I'm serious ... this is what should happen if Dan is half the coach everyone seems to think he is. No excuses.

Just to add something ... I'm not buying into the "We play in the mighty SEC West" mantra either.

I'm very happy with this class for sure however if we pay a top 15 HC Salary I want top 15 recruiting rankings and finishing the season in the top 15.

[dawgday166]

Penn state has finished 4th, 2nd, 4th, and 3rd in big 10 the last 4 years. We haven't finished 4th in our division during that time. Having 4 perennial top 10 recruiting teams and the biggest cheating school in the country in your division makes it tough to build. Despite that and our down year, we're 26-14 the last 3 years and penn state is 24-15 and Washington is 27-14 and Clemson is just far superior to all the teams mentioned

Penn St. and Wash coaches are each in their 3rd year I believe. 2018 will be #10 for Dan. We just hired a top notch D coordinator (per stats).

Clemson won the Natty against Bama and was in Championship year before. Wash won the Pac 12 and was in the playoffs (Peterson's 3rd year) and smacked Bama in the mouth pretty good in playoffs. And Penn St won the B1G East (with OSU & Mich in it) and the B1G Conference title (Franklin's 3rd year).

I'm not saying we should win the SEC or even the SEC W. I'm saying we should only lose to 2 West teams at the most (Bama and probably LSU ... have to go to both in 2018). OM should be way down so we should annihilate them in Oxford. All our other West games are at home.

I'm looking forward to a good 2018. We should have a stud Sr QB, Stud RBs (2 or 3 IMO), Stud D. OL & WRs not sure about yet. Moral victories won't mean much to me that year. We should be in a New Year's Six Bowl that year.

[msstate7]

Penn St. and Wash coaches are each in their 3rd year I believe. 2018 will be #10 for Dan. We just hired a top notch D coordinator (per stats).

Clemson won the Natty against Bama and was in Championship year before. Wash won the Pac 12 and was in the playoffs (Peterson's 3rd year) and smacked Bama in the mouth pretty good in playoffs. And Penn St won the B1G East (with OSU & Mich in it) and the B1G Conference title (Franklin's 3rd year).

I'm not saying we should win the SEC or even the SEC W. I'm saying we should only lose to 2 West teams at the most (Bama and probably LSU ... have to go to both in 2018). OM should be way down so we should annihilate them in Oxford. All our other West games are at home.

I'm looking forward to a good 2018. We should have a stud Sr QB, Stud RBs (2 or 3 IMO), Stud D. OL & WRs not sure about yet. Moral victories won't mean much to me that year. We should be in a New Year's Six Bowl that year.

You're using recruiting rankings to justify that Mullen is underachieving... that's dumb. Auburn, lsu, bama, and aTm are perennial top 10 recruiting teams.

[msstate7]

I'm very happy with this class for sure however if we pay a top 15 HC Salary I want top 15 recruiting rankings and finishing the season in the top 15.

Look at it like this... we pay 6th or 7th best HC money in sec west and 7th in overall coaching staff pay. We are getting what we pay for, no?

[Really Clark?]

I'm very happy with this class for sure however if we pay a top 15 HC Salary I want top 15 recruiting rankings and finishing the season in the top 15.

Close. He is 16th nationally and 6th in the SEC west (this past year-with Orgeron at LSU now he moves up a spot) just one spot above Big Bert both nationally and SEC west. There are 2 ways you have to look at his salary and where it falls as it relates both in division and nationally.

[dawgday166]

You're using recruiting rankings to justify that Mullen is underachieving... that's dumb. Auburn, lsu, bama, and aTm are perennial top 10 recruiting teams.

No ... I"m not. I'm saying in 2015 we were better than AU & A&M, regardless of rankings. Should have been at a minimum 9-3 and I also think we should've beat OM at home. I'm saying with our recruiting rankings that we should not lose to USA, BYU, or KY.

I'm just stating what my expectations are. Everyone else can keep being excited about 7 - 8 wins if they'd like.

[CadaverDawg]

I'm very happy with this class for sure however if we pay a top 15 HC Salary I want top 15 recruiting rankings and finishing the season in the top 15.

So recruiting rankings determine how good our class is now? Not on field production? Just trying to keep up with Dan's latest requirements.

Is the class that had KJ Wright and all the other pros considered a Top 35 class even though it turned out to be top 10 after 3 years....or does the ranking get readjusted once we see the players play a few years?

[dawgday166]

Look at it like this... we pay 6th or 7th best HC money in sec west and 7th in overall coaching staff pay. We are getting what we pay for, no?

I choose to look at it from a somewhat different perspective, especially with all the credit Dan gets for player development, being an offensive guru, and the stud D players we put into the league.

I expect an offensive guru, a stud D, and all these players kicking butt in 2018 ... regardless of what Dan's salary is. His job is to win games ... period.

[Bubb Rubb]

Penn St. and Wash coaches are each in their 3rd year I believe. 2018 will be #10 for Dan. We just hired a top notch D coordinator (per stats).

Clemson won the Natty against Bama and was in Championship year before. Wash won the Pac 12 and was in the playoffs (Peterson's 3rd year) and smacked Bama in the mouth pretty good in playoffs. And Penn St won the B1G East (with OSU & Mich in it) and the B1G Conference title (Franklin's 3rd year).

I'm not saying we should win the SEC or even the SEC W. I'm saying we should only lose to 2 West teams at the most (Bama and probably LSU ... have to go to both in 2018). OM should be way down so we should annihilate them in Oxford. All our other West games are at home.

I'm looking forward to a good 2018. We should have a stud Sr QB, Stud RBs (2 or 3 IMO), Stud D. OL & WRs not sure about yet. Moral victories won't mean much to me that year. We should be in a New Year's Six Bowl that year.

If you don't think it's much, much easier to win 10 and get into the playoffs for Clemson, Washington, or Penn State (or Ohio State for that matter) than it is for us, then I can't help you.

[dawgday166]

If you don't think it's much, much easier to win 10 and get into the playoffs for Clemson, Washington, or Penn State (or Ohio State for that matter) than it is for us, then I can't help you.

Not asking for your help. If you want to keep believing that everyone in the SEC W would easily compete for the SEC E title and maybe even win it ... knock yourself out.

[Joe Schmedlap]

You had better realize how difficult SEC West competition is. To discount that fact is to be at best irrational and at worst a troll.


Take a look at 2014 - 2017 recruiting rankings (247 Sports). Specifically check out Clemson's & Washington's rankings.

Clemson in mid teens every year and almost never signs the full 25. This year they signed only 14.

Washington is right about where we're at every year. Every year.

Penn St. was interesting too.

Looking at those rankings kinda disappoints me a little bit more about the last 2 years' results at MSU.

But that's ok. Dan's gonna turn this thing around now and in 2 years we gonna be whupping up on everybody and when we travel to TTown we gonna smack Bammer right in the damn mouth.

Last 3 years we finished 18, 24, and 28 in recruiting. 2015 class will be seniors or RS juniors in 2018. All the jucos from this year will be seniors.

And yes, I'm serious ... this is what should happen if Dan is half the coach everyone seems to think he is. No excuses.

Just to add something ... I'm not buying into the "We play in the mighty SEC West" mantra either.

[1bigdawg]

I believe it is better to compare the 247 "average player rating," than it is to compare class rank. Here is ours vs Clemson the last few years.

MSU Clemson
2017 .8604 .9209
2016 .8716 .9030
2015 .8768 .8919
2014 .8493 .8778
2013 .8527 .8838 (Will be redshirt seniors)
2012 .8584 .8819
Ave. .8615 .8932

Assuming that each team has 85 on the roster and the average recruit talent ranking is the average that stays, Clemson has a much more talented team than us, despite not finishing far ahead in the rankings because of class size.

Two more notes: We only have 4 redshirt seniors this year, Gray, Harris, Cleveland and Myles. A developmental program needs more. Second, our average talent is getting better. The 2011 class had a .8351 talent ranking.

[Bubb Rubb]

Not asking for your help. If you want to keep believing that everyone in the SEC W would compete for the SEC E title easily ... knock yourself out.

Not EVERYONE. But 80% of it. I don't even know why you're protesting the point...because it's not even debatable. You might as well be trying to convince everyone that the earth is flat.

[dawgday166]

Not EVERYONE. But 80% of it. I don't even know why you're protesting the point...because it's not even debatable. You might as well be trying to convince everyone that the earth is flat.

Is that so? Do you have objective test data that isn't the eyeball test?

[Bubb Rubb]

I shared plenty of it before. But common sense should be the ultimate determinant.

As a coach, which looks more like a gauntlet to you?

1. Vanderbilt-Kentucky-Missouri-South Carolina-Georgia-Florida-Tennessee
2. Arkansas-Alabama-TAMU-Auburn-MSU-Ole Miss-LSU

[lamont]

No ... I"m not. I'm saying in 2015 we were better than AU & A&M, regardless of rankings. Should have been at a minimum 9-3 and I also think we should've beat OM at home. I'm saying with our recruiting rankings that we should not lose to USA, BYU, or KY.

I'm just stating what my expectations are. Everyone else can keep being excited about 7 - 8 wins if they'd like.

We were in no way better than Auburn in 2015. They have twice the talent we do on the OL and DL

[WSOPdawg]

While I'm glad we pay Dan enough to rank 16th in the nation, this just shows how far we've come compared to say 15 or 20 years ago. Yeah, we expect results by paying a coach $4.5mil a season, but recruiting is only a small part of that. There's also a matter of getting favorable results when the players hit the field and how one calls a game.

In the end, we're paying for W's. How we get there, I don't care as long as we are able to field a competitive team that occasionally makes a run for the SEC Championship. After all, look at TCU and VaTech -- here's a couple of teams that seldom rank in the top 10 in recruiting but manage to compete and win once the game (and season) starts.

[dawgday166]

We were in no way better than Auburn in 2015. They have twice the talent we do on the OL and DL

2015 not 2016. We beat them 17 - 9 at AU.

[lamont]

You had better realize how difficult SEC West competition is. To discount that fact is to be at best irrational and at worst a troll.

2017 SEC West will be rough. Everybody brings QB's back except A&M

[lamont]

2015 not 2016. We beat them 17 - 9 at AU.

Ahhhhh- misread it.

[Reason2succeed]

Mullen is recruiting and developing the X factor in all of this: the quarterback. No player affects the results of a game more than the player that has the ball in his hands most. In our run to #1 we had the superior QB in every single game however we had deficiencies at other positions. With Fitz and KT if we can plug those deficiencies then we will have "a chance" to do what Clemson did.

Beyond looking at each year by itself which is the definition of myopic we should look at the overall development of the program when evaluating Mullen. Here he as done an amazing job along with the former ADs of raising the profile of our team (so much so that your expectations have been raised considerably since his hire).

[dawgday166]

Mullen is recruiting and developing the X factor in all of this: the quarterback. No player affects the results of a game more than the player that has the ball in his hands most. In our run to #1 we had the superior QB in every single game however we had deficiencies at other positions. With Fitz and KT if we can plug those deficiencies then we will have "a chance" to do what Clemson did.

Beyond looking at each year by itself which is the definition of myopic we should look at the overall development of the program when evaluating Mullen. Here he as done an amazing job along with the former ADs of raising the profile of our team (so much so that your expectations have been raised considerably since his hire).

My expectations have been raised ... I won't argue that. This morning I read an article about his contract negotiations and he joked about using the Egg Bowl trophy in those ... may set it in the middle of the table during negotiations (if I recall correctly). That's cool and I'm sure he was joking. I'm very happy we thumped OM 55 - 20.

However I (dumb me) went into this past year thinking we should win about 8. Random said 6 - 7 at most. Looking back can anyone really say we should not have won 8 based on who we lost to and how?

Moral victories are getting a tad old to me and yes ... I'm expecting Dan to take the next step. Not expecting a miracle (like beating Bama for the West), but I believe the rest is doable.

[Reason2succeed]

Look at it like this... we pay 6th or 7th best HC money in sec west and 7th in overall coaching staff pay. We are getting what we pay for, no?

This plus you must also compare the salaries of assistant coaches. If we want great recruiters who can also get the job done we have to pay them to come and pay them to stay. Hiring Grantham was a step in the right direction in this. Once again this is the long term development of the program that should not be based on the results of one season in 2018.

[Reason2succeed]

My expectations have been raised ... I won't argue that. This morning I read an article about his contract negotiations and he joked about using the Egg Bowl trophy in those ... may set it in the middle of the table during negotiations (if I recall correctly). That's cool and I'm sure he was joking. I'm very happy we thumped OM 55 - 20.

However I (dumb me) went into this past year thinking we should win about 8. Random said 6 - 7 at most. Looking back can anyone really say we should not have won 8 based on who we lost to and how?

Moral victories are getting a tad old to me and yes ... I'm expecting Dan to take the next step. Not expecting a miracle (like beating Bama for the West), but I believe the rest is doable.

No one, not even Mullen would disagree with you that 2016 was a disappointment. He told the team that in the locker room after the Egg Bowl.

1) I know we are all fans doing what fans do but if you think you have higher expectations for the team than Mullen does you are deceiving yourself.
2) If you think you have answers that Mullen hasn't considered you are deceiving yourself.
3) There are things we do not know and things we on the outside don't have to consider when making our opinions. And we certainly don't have to face the consequences of every decision.

[WSOPdawg]

This plus you must also compare the salaries of assistant coaches. If we want great recruiters who can also get the job done we have to pay them to come and pay them to stay. Hiring Grantham was a step in the right direction in this. Once again this is the long term development of the program that should not be based on the results of one season in 2018.

That's why the addition of Grantham is, to me, one of the most important decisions we've made in a long time. Kudos to Cohen for paying to bring in a top-notch, proven DC.

[HSVDawg]

Compare recruiting rankings of the teams you mentioned within their conference division

The division competition is a weak argument because of Clemson. They beat the team that has finished #1 in recruiting rankings for the past decade and also won the SEC West / overall conference the last 3 years. They also outplayed that same team in every facet but special teams in last year's championship game. Their theoretical recruiting ranking compared to other SEC West teams isn't much better than ours, but they assembled a team that was better than all of the SEC in spite of that.

[msstate7]

The division competition is a weak argument because of Clemson. They beat the team that has finished #1 in recruiting rankings for the past decade and also won the SEC West / overall conference the last 3 years. They also outplayed that same team in every facet but special teams in last year's championship game. Their theoretical recruiting ranking compared to other SEC West teams isn't much better than ours, but they assembled a team that was better than all of the SEC in spite of that.

They faced 1 team in conference that had better recruiting rankings. We face at least 4 in the west every year with better recruiting rankings

[BB30]

Mullen is recruiting and developing the X factor in all of this: the quarterback. No player affects the results of a game more than the player that has the ball in his hands most. In our run to #1 we had the superior QB in every single game however we had deficiencies at other positions. With Fitz and KT if we can plug those deficiencies then we will have "a chance" to do what Clemson did.

Beyond looking at each year by itself which is the definition of myopic we should look at the overall development of the program when evaluating Mullen. Here he as done an amazing job along with the former ADs of raising the profile of our team (so much so that your expectations have been raised considerably since his hire).

This.. You can get away with top 15-20 classes and compete for a championship if you have an X factor at QB. Clemson without Watson the last two years struggles to get to 8 wins IMO. Watson put them over the top and hid some of their deficiencies. It is still hard to think about how close we were in 14 to doing the same thing Clemson did this year. That is one of the reasons I am hesitant to put Mullen on the hot seat (if he has decided he wants to bust it again) is the fact that we have never developed QBs and for us to compete we have to have the edge at QB.

[Really Clark?]

The division competition is a weak argument because of Clemson. They beat the team that has finished #1 in recruiting rankings for the past decade and also won the SEC West / overall conference the last 3 years. They also outplayed that same team in every facet but special teams in last year's championship game. Their theoretical recruiting ranking compared to other SEC West teams isn't much better than ours, but they assembled a team that was better than all of the SEC in spite of that.

You are making the same argument but using only 1 game from each of the last 2 to make it. That's even weaker. That same Clemson team struggled against an 8-4 Auburn team and lost to Pitt. Clemson has had a great team the last few years with some great talent, no argument and their classes probably were under ranked somewhat and a great QB helps, but the division argument is better than focusing on just one game the last 2 years. How bout we do that for the UNM vs Bama game the last 3? Does that make your argument stronger or weaker by focusing on just one game?

[HSVDawg]

They faced 1 team in conference that had better recruiting rankings. We face at least 4 in the west every year with better recruiting rankings

And if they faced the same 4 teams we faced, they would have beaten them too.

The following are indisputable facts:
1) Clemson's on the field product has been slightly better than Bama over the past two years.
2) Clemson's on the field product has been absolutely leaps and bounds better than every other SEC West team over the same time period.
3) Clemson has finished behind Alabama, LSU, Auburn, and Texas A&M in recruiting rankings on average over the 5 classes comprising the players on those two teams, and also finished behind Ole Miss two of those 5 years and probably about the same as them and us the other 3.

Clemson has way outperformed their recruiting ranking, period. You are kidding yourself if you don't think they would beat every team in the division. Hell, they beat the best two teams this year. Do they have to schedule LSU and beat them too?

[msstate7]

And if they faced the same 4 teams we faced, they would have beaten them too.

The following are indisputable facts:
1) Clemson's on the field product has been slightly better than Bama over the past two years.
2) Clemson's on the field product has been absolutely leaps and bounds better than every other SEC West team over the same time period.
3) Clemson has finished behind Alabama, LSU, Auburn, and Texas A&M in recruiting rankings on average over the 5 classes comprising the players on those two teams, and also finished behind Ole Miss two of those 5 years and probably about the same as them and us the other 3.

Clemson has way outperformed their recruiting ranking, period. You are kidding yourself if you don't think they would beat every team in the division. Hell, they beat the best two teams this year. Do they have to schedule LSU and beat them too?

I said earlier in the thread they were on another level than us. What makes you think they'd have run thru the west undefeated this year when they lost to Pitt? Is Pitt better than everyone in the west also? They beat Troy by 6. They went to OT with nc state. It took them a while to get going this year and an sec schedule requires you to be ready to go all year

[BB30]

And if they faced the same 4 teams we faced, they would have beaten them too.

The following are indisputable facts:
1) Clemson's on the field product has been slightly better than Bama over the past two years.
2) Clemson's on the field product has been absolutely leaps and bounds better than every other SEC West team over the same time period.
3) Clemson has finished behind Alabama, LSU, Auburn, and Texas A&M in recruiting rankings on average over the 5 classes comprising the players on those two teams, and also finished behind Ole Miss two of those 5 years and probably about the same as them and us the other 3.

Clemson has way outperformed their recruiting ranking, period. You are kidding yourself if you don't think they would beat every team in the division. Hell, they beat the best two teams this year. Do they have to schedule LSU and beat them too?

I agree that they would beat every team in the division individually. I think the difference is you can't really take weeks off in the SEC. Playing the teams you listed in consecutive weeks instead of throwing in an NC State, Wake Forrest, Boston College, and Syracuse makes life a lot easier. They legitimately have to play well two games the entire season to win their side of the conference and then winning the conference is a cake walk as the Coastal division is awful. I mean FSU and Louisville is really their only competition in conference play. One of those teams got beat by KY at home and Houston. The other was getting boat raced by OM before the wheels fell off in the second half, and lost to North Carolina and got killed by LVille. FSU also hung a whopping 17 points on Wake, managed to beat Miami by 1 point and hammered NC State by 4.

Clemson without Watson is an 7-8 win team at best.

I would disagree that Clemson's on the field product has been better than Bama over the past two years. What metrics are you using to decide that. They are 1-1 heads up. And, there is no way you can argue that Clemson is more talented as a whole than Bama. Again, without Watson they are a slightly above average team and if you stick them in the SEC without Watson they don't win more than 8 games.

[HSVDawg]

I said earlier in the thread they were on another level than us. What makes you think they'd have run thru the west undefeated this year when they lost to Pitt? Is Pitt better than everyone in the west also?

I think you are mistaking the West for being the juggernaut division that it was from 2010-2014. It has not been all that great the past two years, and as the East is still down that means the SEC as a whole hasn't been that great. And you can dog on Pitt all you want, they beat Penn State too who was another playoff contender. ACC has just been a better league than the SEC lately.

[msstate7]

I think you are mistaking the West for being the juggernaut division that it was from 2010-2014. It has not been all that great the past two years, and as the East is still down that means the SEC as a whole hasn't been that great. And you can dog on Pitt all you want, they beat Penn State too who was another playoff contender. ACC has just been a better league than the SEC lately.

Maybe so, but Pitt lost 5 games this year. Troy lost by 6 to Clemson. NC state took Clemson to OT.

[TaleofTwoDogs]

You can banter back and forth this subject until doomsday, but the one constant, the one norm that we should expect based on coaches salaries, recruiting rankings, facilities, athletic budget, NFL placements and any other measuring stick you can think of is that we should never lose or be pushed to the max by USA, USM, UMass, Samford, Troy, LA Tech, Maine, etc. Going forward losses to such teams should be totally unacceptable especially if a losing season is caused by drops to these kind of teams.

[ILOATHEBears]

So recruiting rankings determine how good our class is now? Not on field production? Just trying to keep up with Dan's latest requirements.

Is the class that had KJ Wright and all the other pros considered a Top 35 class even though it turned out to be top 10 after 3 years....or does the ranking get readjusted once we see the players play a few years?

Not at all however I agree with others that said I need to look at it how it shakes out across the sec. what I do want is a program that is a top 15-20 program year in and out with our production we put on the field especially when we pay well and have upgraded facilities. No more excuses