We just have to accept fact in recruiting

[lamont]

This regime under Mullen- no matter what assistants we hire- is always going to be a 20-30 recruiter. After 8 years, we have all the evidence we need. OM is down and struggling so what happens? Do we lock the state of Mississippi down? No. Louisville and LSU are going to poach the top 10.

Why? Because of our pitch to recruits. We preach hard work, busting your ass, lunch pail mentality. We don't kiss much of those 18 year old asses. We don't do glitz or glam. That's all well and good in pro football- but when you are selling your program- you have to put as much lipstick on that pig as you possibly can. 18 year old kids don't want to hear about hard work and how nothing is going to be given to them. You have to lie and make promises you can't keep. Recruiting is just a dirty business.

We pull in some good players- but we will never have the depth or complete team necessary to do anything big. Mullen is Stands without the severe discipline problems and drama. And that's ok I guess. Climbing the SEC mountain is a lot harder in football than basketball.

[missouridawg]

Mullen is the anti-Stands... a great coach and developer, but average recruiter. Stands was bad at in-game coaching and developing his high end recruits.

[lamont]

Mullen is the anti-Stands... a great coach and developer, but average recruiter. Stands was bad at in-game coaching and developing his high end recruits.

I was talking from a results point. You knew Stands was never going to do anything big nationally- and we know Mullen is never going to win the SEC.

[ScottH]

Mullen is the anti-Stands... a great coach and developer, but average recruiter. Stands was bad at in-game coaching and developing his high end recruits.

Exactly.

[dawgday166]

Mullen is the anti-Stands... a great coach and developer, but average recruiter. Stands was bad at in-game coaching and developing his high end recruits.

Mullen's success with high end recruits and his in-game coaching ain't nuthin to write home about either.

ETA: Not sure why everyone always says he's a great coach either. He may be a good coach. If he were great we'd be finishing higher in the west every year than we do.

[Irondawg]

The pitch is fine if you think it will work on certain players. The issue is that we supposedly keep identifying guys who buy into the approach and then lose them very, very late in the game.

It's all speculation from our end, but if Mullen and Co. don't see trends developing as to the reasons why this keeps happening and figure out a way to stop them, it's all on them.

[BB30]

This regime under Mullen- no matter what assistants we hire- is always going to be a 20-30 recruiter. After 8 years, we have all the evidence we need. OM is down and struggling so what happens? Do we lock the state of Mississippi down? No. Louisville and LSU are going to poach the top 10.

Why? Because of our pitch to recruits. We preach hard work, busting your ass, lunch pail mentality. We don't kiss much of those 18 year old asses. We don't do glitz or glam. That's all well and good in pro football- but when you are selling your program- you have to put as much lipstick on that pig as you possibly can. 18 year old kids don't want to hear about hard work and how nothing is going to be given to them. You have to lie and make promises you can't keep. Recruiting is just a dirty business.

We pull in some good players- but we will never have the depth or complete team necessary to do anything big. Mullen is Stands without the severe discipline problems and drama. And that's ok I guess. Climbing the SEC mountain is a lot harder in football than basketball.

So you talk about the snow flake generation and how awful it is and that they need to toughen up yet you want to inflate their ego and tell them how great they are and continue down the same path? I personally don't want our coaches flat out lying to kids, they need to know that it is going to be hell going in and that they aren't guaranteed anything. Coaches can kiss a** and still tell the truth, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

I personally don't think that is the issue, I think the issue is effort on Dan's part. Let me state that I am pro Dan, but at some point your HC has to like recruiting, it is the lifeblood of a program at the end of the day. It doesn't matter if your assistants are great recruiters, eventually parents and kids want to know that the head man is and will be involved in the kid's life, not just using him to get the next best job.

You may can get away with not being that interested in recruiting at an Alabama or Ohio State and just have good assistants,(although Meyer and Saban are obviously great recruiters, look at the nose dive Florida recruiting has taken since Meyer left) but unfortunately here you can't get away with that. You have to sell the sh** out of Starkville and Mississippi State and accomplishing something special that has never happened here before. The fact that Lville is poaching guys in our state left and right is absurd. There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't be able to out recruit them in our state, it is pathetic.

[travis]

Mullen's success with high end recruits and his in-game coaching ain't nuthin to write home about either.

ETA: Not sure why everyone always says he's a great coach either. He may be a good coach. If he were great we'd be finishing higher in the west every year than we do.

I'd say he's the best coach State has had since McKeen.

[Jarius]

The pitch is fine if you think it will work on certain players. The issue is that we supposedly keep identifying guys who buy into the approach and then lose them very, very late in the game.

It's all speculation from our end, but if Mullen and Co. don't see trends developing as to the reasons why this keeps happening and figure out a way to stop them, it's all on them.


This is what doesn't add up and makes it look like our staff gets really lazy late in the process. We continually have the same problem with people leaving us late in the process no matter how many different recruiters we have had under Mullen. It happens all the time. The pitch works in June and in February people bolt.

[dawgday166]

I'd say he's the best coach State has had since McKeen.

I probably wouldn't argue that point. Doesn't make him a great coach tho in today's climate.

[fader2103]

Now I remember when I was a junior and senior in high school. I didn't get any offers. I did get recruiting letters just because my name in the program had a JR. SR. beside it haha. I agree we need to make our program look sexy especially coming off many bowl appearances, #1 ranking a few years back, and we can make you succeed in the NFL, not just get there.

[ATTILLA THE DOG]

Mullen is a 6-6 coach and a poor recruiter,who struck gold with DAK and had two very good years.He has peaked at State(not calling for him to be fired) but it is what it is.We give him top 15-20 pay yet we dont get top 15-20 results,we could do better imo.

[dawgday166]

Results on the field are what matter most to me. 2018 -- if we finish worse than 3rd in west and we don't beat at least 4 west teams, then IMO it's time. And both offense and defense should be ranked in top 25 in almost all statistical categories. We got a hotshot O coordinator and a hotshot D coordinator. I definitely wanna see an offense in top 20 - 25.

[BB30]

Mullen is a 6-6 coach and a poor recruiter,who struck gold with DAK and had two very good years.He has peaked at State(not calling for him to be fired) but it is what it is.We give him top 15-20 pay yet we dont get top 15-20 results,we could do better imo.

He has won 9+ just as much as he has won 6 or less. Hell we went 9-4 his second season. Problem is if we get rid of Dan while he is still winning, we won't be able to throw the entire checkbook at a new guy. He will unfortunately have to lose a couple of years in a row for us to have a chance to land a decent coach. Perception is reality in some instances and our program is too big to be a stepping stone as a HC and not quite elite enough to be a place where you have an excellent chance of winning a NC. Any up and coming coach knows that they can stay where they are at a mid major win a bunch of games and make a jump to a USC, Bama, LSU, UF type program where they have a better chance to win a NC. If you look at our coaching history several of our most successful coaches were retreads at the end of their career, Sherrill etc. We got lucky with Mullen and I truly believe he thought he could come here and win the SEC, he was young, cocky, and arrogant but also busted his a** the first few years. I think he thought he would ride Dak's coat tails out of Starkville to a big time job and it didn't happen so he will have to refocus and win big if he wants to make a move. If he leaves for a Maryland type of job he will be starting over.

Best case scenario for us is he pulls something out of his a** gets us to an SEC championship or wins a major bowl, takes a big time job and proves you can win here. Otherwise we will have a hard time hiring a stud coach IMO. Any other way he leaves it will look bad for us. Most view him as a heck of a coach that has accomplished what nobody else has at State. If he loses people will think it just can't be done here and if we fire him they will think we are crazy and should lower our expectations.

[Really Clark?]

Mullen is a 6-6 coach and a poor recruiter,who struck gold with DAK and had two very good years.He has peaked at State(not calling for him to be fired) but it is what it is.We give him top 15-20 pay yet we dont get top 15-20 results,we could do better imo.

He also won 9 games with Relf and 8 with Tyler. It wasn't just Dak, who he developed. Throw out the first year setting up the program and he averages 8 wins a year for the last 7 years. He is better than a 6-6 coach

[BrunswickDawg]

This regime under Mullen- no matter what assistants we hire- is always going to be a 20-30 recruiter. After 8 years, we have all the evidence we need. OM is down and struggling so what happens? Do we lock the state of Mississippi down? No. Louisville and LSU are going to poach the top 10.

Why? Because of our pitch to recruits. We preach hard work, busting your ass, lunch pail mentality. We don't kiss much of those 18 year old asses. We don't do glitz or glam. That's all well and good in pro football- but when you are selling your program- you have to put as much lipstick on that pig as you possibly can. 18 year old kids don't want to hear about hard work and how nothing is going to be given to them. You have to lie and make promises you can't keep. Recruiting is just a dirty business.

We pull in some good players- but we will never have the depth or complete team necessary to do anything big. Mullen is Stands without the severe discipline problems and drama. And that's ok I guess. Climbing the SEC mountain is a lot harder in football than basketball.

Personally, I'm OK with that. Do we really want to be Ole Miss or Auburn? Cheat like mf's, have high drama surrounding our program at all times, have inconsistent seasons based on who gets jailed, quits, or gets processed? I don't. I don't have any illusions or delusions that begin able to challenge for an SEC title every year can be a reality. Go back and look at a lot of threads about our program prior to 2014 and you will see a lot of "7-8 wins on a consistent basis, 9 every few, and everything coming together for a run at 10 or more every 6-7 years and I'd be happy." Of course, that went out the window as soon as we challenged for the West in '14.

My check marks for the program are:
1) Are we a competitive team year in, year out?
2) Are we graduating our players?
3) Are we producing pros?
4) Are actions of our players/coaches/admin embarrassing us on the national stage?
5) Am I willing to put my time and money into travelling 10 hours to see the team or go to the closest away games when possible?

I could give two shits about where Mullen interviews, what our recruiting rankings are, or which prima donna HS kid turned us down as long as those things are being met. It's ****ing football, there is more to life.

[I seen it dawg]

We don't work hard enough at it. It's really very simple.

[lamont]

I'd say he's the best coach State has had since McKeen.

Absolutely. And he has more resources than any State coach has ever had.

Unfortunately- we can't compare Mullen to Charlie Shira- we have to compare him to Saban, Yaw Yaw, Gus Bus, Sumlin, Bert, and Freezus.

[dawgday166]

He has won 9+ just as much as he has won 6 or less. Hell we went 9-4 his second season. Problem is if we get rid of Dan while he is still winning, we won't be able to throw the entire checkbook at a new guy. He will unfortunately have to lose a couple of years in a row for us to have a chance to land a decent coach. Perception is reality in some instances and our program is too big to be a stepping stone as a HC and not quite elite enough to be a place where you have an excellent chance of winning a NC. Any up and coming coach knows that they can stay where they are at a mid major win a bunch of games and make a jump to a USC, Bama, LSU, UF type program where they have a better chance to win a NC. If you look at our coaching history several of our most successful coaches were retreads at the end of their career, Sherrill etc. We got lucky with Mullen and I truly believe he thought he could come here and win the SEC, he was young, cocky, and arrogant but also busted his a** the first few years. I think he thought he would ride Dak's coat tails out of Starkville to a big time job and it didn't happen so he will have to refocus and win big if he wants to make a move. If he leaves for a Maryland type of job he will be starting over.

Not entirely accurate. Throwing out bowl games he's had 2 - 5 win seasons, 2 - 6 win seasons, 3 - 8 win seasons and 1 - 10 win season.

[HancockCountyDog]

He also won 9 games with Relf and 8 with Tyler. It wasn't just Dak, who he developed. Throw out the first year setting up the program and he averages 8 wins a year for the last 7 years. He is better than a 6-6 coach

That 2010 team that won 9 had 7 NFL players on the defense 3 all pros. None of whom committed to Mullen. He deserves every inch of credit for developing Dak and especially Fitz who I don't think has as much raw material as Dak, but Dan has turned into an ALL SEC caliber QB.

In fact, if we could just have Dan develop QB's and run the offense, let someone else run the defense, and most importantly let someone else do the recruiting, we would have a top 15 program.

[dawgday166]

He also won 9 games with Relf and 8 with Tyler. It wasn't just Dak, who he developed. Throw out the first year setting up the program and he averages 8 wins a year for the last 7 years. He is better than a 6-6 coach

He averages 7 not counting some cake bowl games added in. And that's with a cake OOC schedule too.

[I seen it dawg]

Sorry but Mullen is a great QB coach and keeper of a program. Keeps discipline in line and guys graduating. Everything else he's just meh. Just a guy.

[Really Clark?]

That 2010 team that won 9 had 7 NFL players on the defense 3 all pros. None of whom committed to Mullen. He deserves every inch of credit for developing Dak and especially Fitz who I don't think has as much raw material as Dak, but Dan has turned into an ALL SEC caliber QB.

In fact, if we could just have Dan develop QB's and run the offense, let someone else run the defense, and most importantly let someone else do the recruiting, we would have a top 15 program.

He also developed Relf and Tyler who helped get those wins. That defense did have those players but other than Cox the rest were underrated and raw and Dan developed them as well. It wasn't like the defense was elite when he arrived with highly rated talent and just offense needed fixing. He had to overhaul the whole program for

[lamont]

Not entirely accurate. Throwing out bowl games he's had 2 - 5 win seasons, 2 - 6 win seasons, 3 - 8 win seasons and 1 - 10 win season.

Exactly- this is how you measure your program. Going 6-6 and getting to play Rice in a bowl game or 5-7 to play a team half our fanbase didn't know was D-1 for easy wins doesn't really tell the story.

We are a 6-8 win program under Mullen. And we have to accept that

[ATTILLA THE DOG]

He also won 9 games with Relf and 8 with Tyler. It wasn't just Dak, who he developed. Throw out the first year setting up the program and he averages 8 wins a year for the last 7 years. He is better than a 6-6 coach

I don't want Mullen fired,but he is paid top 15-20 type money and does not produce those results.I dont expect us to out recruit bama,lsu type programs,i know that will never happen.I just think we could and should do better than we do.

[Really Clark?]

He averages 7 not counting some cake bowl games added in. And that's with a cake OOC schedule too.

He averages 8, you count every game. The reason is if he had lost every bowl you damn sure would count it against him. And the bowl games count in the rankings. It's 8 his last 7 years.

[dawgday166]

He also won 9 games with Relf and 8 with Tyler. It wasn't just Dak, who he developed. Throw out the first year setting up the program and he averages 8 wins a year for the last 7 years. He is better than a 6-6 coach

Yea ... he "developed them":

2010 - 42 in total O (not bad with Relf I will admit)
2011 - 84
2012 - 80
2013 - 42

ETA: We won with defense those years ... despite the propaganda. Go look at the D rankings.

[dawgday166]

He averages 8, you count every game. The reason is if he had lost every bowl you damn sure would count it against him. And the bowl games count in the rankings. It's 8 his last 7 years.

I do count only regular season games. That determines where we finish in the SEC W. Now if we had lost every bowl game then that would be an entirely separate reason to be pissed at him.

[Really Clark?]

Exactly- this is how you measure your program. Going 6-6 and getting to play Rice in a bowl game or 5-7 to play a team half our fanbase didn't know was D-1 for easy wins doesn't really tell the story.

We are a 6-8 win program under Mullen. And we have to accept that

You count every game. Period. The dang rankings don't stop with the regular season. The wins and losses count, period

[smootness]

I think a team that is decently talented and works as hard as they can, combined with great QBs, is a pretty good recipe for a program like ours. It won't keep you consistently at the top, but what formula will here? It will give you years like 2014 every few years or so, and I am fine with that. We'll have a chance to really compete here and there.

[lamont]

He averages 8, you count every game. The reason is if he had lost every bowl you damn sure would count it against him. It's 8 his last 7 years.

You really don't. Counting wins vs Rice and Miaimi of Ohio while Auburn plays OU in the Sugar is just a little different.

And Dawg166 is correct in the cake schedule. We have been the 1 SEC school not playing P5 games to boost our win total. And that's fine- but let's not act like we are a powerhouse. The 2 games we have played OOC in the last 4 years against decent teams in Ok St and BYU we have lost.

[Really Clark?]

Yea ... he "developed them":

2010 - 42 in total O (not bad with Relf I will admit)
2011 - 84
2012 - 80
2013 - 42

I said QB's. Read

[Really Clark?]

You really don't. Counting wins vs Rice and Miaimi of Ohio while Auburn plays OU in the Sugar is just a little different.

And Dawg166 is correct in the cake schedule. We have been the 1 SEC school not playing P5 games to boost our win total. And that's fine- but let's not act like we are a powerhouse. The 2 games we have played OOC in the last 4 years against decent teams in Ok St and BYU we have lost.

Neither of you are correct. No stat or ranking does that. Every single place you look for a coaches record doesn't stop with regular season. They count every game no matter how you want state your case it is not correct and you can't link any stat or historian who does that. You both are dead wrong

[Really Clark?]

I do count only regular season games. That determines where we finish in the SEC W. Now if we had lost every bowl game then that would be an entirely separate reason to be pissed at him.

Link one place that only counts regular season for a coach win totals. Just because it fits your skewed agenda to do so doesn't make it correct.

[dawgday166]

I said QB's. Read

And I'm saying if he "developed" them so well ... our rankings should be higher. Certainly not in the damn 80s.

[dawgday166]

Link one place that only counts regular season for a coach win totals. Just because it fits your skewed agenda to do so doesn't make it correct.

I don't have an agenda ... none except winning games we should win and beating up on the 4 teams each year in the SEC W that are vulnerable.

[dawgday166]

You really don't. Counting wins vs Rice and Miaimi of Ohio while Auburn plays OU in the Sugar is just a little different.

And Dawg166 is correct in the cake schedule. We have been the 1 SEC school not playing P5 games to boost our win total. And that's fine- but let's not act like we are a powerhouse. The 2 games we have played OOC in the last 4 years against decent teams in Ok St and BYU we have lost.

And we scored 3 damn points against Ok St. (not exactly a defensive powerhouse school) and 21 in regulation against BYU. However Ok St had an offense (we held them to 21 pts.)

[Bubb Rubb]

Mullen's success with high end recruits and his in-game coaching ain't nuthin to write home about either.

ETA: Not sure why everyone always says he's a great coach either. He may be a good coach. If he were great we'd be finishing higher in the west every year than we do.

Mullen has his issues, as all coaches do from time to time. But he is a great offensive football coach. That's not even debatable. He made us competitive with a midget for a QB, and then he won with Chris Relf.

[Commercecomet24]

He averages 8, you count every game. The reason is if he had lost every bowl you damn sure would count it against him. And the bowl games count in the rankings. It's 8 his last 7 years.

Exactly! Don't know where this bowl games don't count thing started. All the games count. Geez

[dawgday166]

I don't have an agenda ... none except winning games we should win and beating up on the 4 teams each year in the SEC W that are vulnerable.

ETA: What's your agenda??

[Really Clark?]

And I'm saying if he "developed" them so well ... our rankings should be higher. Certainly not in the damn 80s.

What were the individual QB rankings. And please be honest to what Relf looked before and after Mullen. If you can't admit how much he got developed by Mullen than you are just arguing from dishonesty or ignorance.

[Bdawg]

Not that I think Mullen and Co are giving an all out effort in recruiting, but I haven't seen much discussion on whether or not we think these other schools are offering a little more than a scholarship. Just makes me wonder why a lot of our kids flip so late in the process. It just may be they are getting better "offers" than we are handing out. And I wouldn't put anything past that human piece of garbage, Bobby Patrino.

[Really Clark?]

I don't have an agenda ... none except winning games we should win and beating up on the 4 teams each year in the SEC W that are vulnerable.

Link where only regular season is counted. You want wins, the bowl games count as wins to.

[dawgday166]

Mullen has his issues, as all coaches do from time to time. But he is a great offensive football coach. That's not even debatable. He made us competitive with a midget for a QB, and then he won with Chris Relf.

Yea it is ... go look at the offensive rankings for each year he's been here. I do think he's a great offensive mind tho. But maybe also that had a lot to do with some guy named Urban. He seems to develop QBs pretty good himself.

[HancockCountyDog]

You count every game. Period. The dang rankings don't stop with the regular season. The wins and losses count, period

I hear ya, but the Ninja deserves his fair share of credit as well. He figured out that we needed four cupcakes every season to go with our SEC schedule.

Dan feasted on bad OOC teams, Kentucky and bad SEC teams, and he definitely deserves credit for raising the floor at MSU. No question about it, but his recruiting is keeping him from achieving his full potential as a coach.

[lamont]

Agenda is the new buzz word thrown out when someone doesn't like the facts they are hearing

Using his regular season record to measure our program is not an agenda- it's a very normal and often used measurement of success

[Reason2succeed]

Some of y'all are complaining about the groceries when all that matter is what comes OUT of the kitchen.

Here's the fact. Mullen beats teams that have more talent than us all the time. Every time he beats Auburn, aTm, OM, and when he beat LSU. Beating Bama means you are probably the NC unless you are OM and can't finish.

Could or should Mullen recruit better? Sure. Any of us could do better at our job. But I'm going to judge him strictly by his on field production and not by his recruiting rankings.

Every team is going to lose guys in recruiting and especially after coaching changes (which granted we have a bunch of).


But every year with Mullen we are raising our national profile and it will pay off if we are not impatient. He told us when he came here that it was going to be a process.

[dawgday166]

What were the individual QB rankings. And please be honest to what Relf looked before and after Mullen. If you can't admit how much he got developed by Mullen than you are just arguing from dishonesty or ignorance.

I will and have admitted he did a decent job with Relf. Games like 5 picks against LSU in '10 weren't good tho.

And of course there is Dak and I'm on the Fitz bandwagon. Now if our Oline and receivers could be gotten up to that caliber.

[Really Clark?]

Agenda is the new buzz word thrown out when someone doesn't like the facts they are hearing

Using his regular season record to measure our program is not an agenda- it's a very normal and often used measurement of success

Link one place that only counts a coaches regular season. Just one. How bout all the articles that uses bowl records against a coach when discussing postseason failures, etc. The games count both ways and if he was 0-7 in bowl games you damn sure would be counting those losses.

[Liverpooldawg]

I'd say he's the best coach State has had since McKeen.

There is no doubt about that, and he has done it in what will eventually be known as the Golden Age of SEC football.

[Liverpooldawg]

I probably wouldn't argue that point. Doesn't make him a great coach tho in today's climate.

Yes it does. The current climate in the SEC makes things harder, not easier.

[AROB44]

Personally, I'm OK with that. Do we really want to be Ole Miss or Auburn? Cheat like mf's, have high drama surrounding our program at all times, have inconsistent seasons based on who gets jailed, quits, or gets processed? I don't. I don't have any illusions or delusions that begin able to challenge for an SEC title every year can be a reality. Go back and look at a lot of threads about our program prior to 2014 and you will see a lot of "7-8 wins on a consistent basis, 9 every few, and everything coming together for a run at 10 or more every 6-7 years and I'd be happy." Of course, that went out the window as soon as we challenged for the West in '14.

My check marks for the program are:
1) Are we a competitive team year in, year out?
2) Are we graduating our players?
3) Are we producing pros?
4) Are actions of our players/coaches/admin embarrassing us on the national stage?
5) Am I willing to put my time and money into travelling 10 hours to see the team or go to the closest away games when possible?

I could give two shits about where Mullen interviews, what our recruiting rankings are, or which prima donna HS kid turned us down as long as those things are being met. It's ****ing football, there is more to life.

Exactly....+1

[Commercecomet24]

Some of y'all are complaining about the groceries when all that matter is what comes OUT of the kitchen.

Here's the fact. Mullen beats teams that have more talent than us all the time. Every time he beats Auburn, aTm, OM, and when he beat LSU. Beating Bama means you are probably the NC unless you are OM and can't finish.

Could or should Mullen recruit better? Sure. Any of us could do better at our job. But I'm going to judge him strictly by his on field production and not by his recruiting rankings.

Every team is going to lose guys in recruiting and especially after coaching changes (which granted we have a bunch of).


But every year with Mullen we are raising our national profile and it will pay off if we are not impatient. He told us when he came here that it was going to be a process.

This makes to much sense**********
Excellent post!

[HancockCountyDog]

Some of y'all are complaining about the groceries when all that matter is what comes OUT of the kitchen.

Here's the fact. Mullen beats teams that have more talent than us all the time. Every time he beats Auburn, aTm, OM, and when he beat LSU. Beating Bama means you are probably the NC unless you are OM and can't finish.

Could or should Mullen recruit better? Sure. Any of us could do better at our job. But I'm going to judge him strictly by his on field production and not by his recruiting rankings.

Every team is going to lose guys in recruiting and especially after coaching changes (which granted we have a bunch of).


But every year with Mullen we are raising our national profile and it will pay off if we are not impatient. He told us when he came here that it was going to be a process.

When he came here, South Alabama did not have a football program. I don't recall him telling us that we would be losing to teams that don't even exist right now as being part of the process. We did not raise our national profile this year. In fact, all we did was prove to some that as long as we beat the confederates, our fan base is happy. Crabs in a god damn bucket.

If you think we raised our national profile this year, you are nuts. The narrative about MSU right now is that Dak carried the program on his back for two years and now that he is gone, it is back to the Weed Wacker Bowl. This year did nothing to disprove that narrative.

[Liverpooldawg]

Exactly- this is how you measure your program. Going 6-6 and getting to play Rice in a bowl game or 5-7 to play a team half our fanbase didn't know was D-1 for easy wins doesn't really tell the story.

We are a 6-8 win program under Mullen. And we have to accept that

What have we been historically?

[Liverpooldawg]

I do count only regular season games. That determines where we finish in the SEC W. Now if we had lost every bowl game then that would be an entirely separate reason to be pissed at him.

You count them all.

[dawgday166]

Yes it does. The current climate in the SEC makes things harder, not easier.

If Urban was in Starkville he'd be finishing 2nd or 3rd at the worst every year in the west. That's a great coach. Finishing 4 - 6 against the mediocre coaching in the west ain't a great coach. He has done nothing as a head coach to be considered great. Urban, Saban, Harbaugh ... they've gone to schools that historically don't win a lot and turned them into winners and conference champs. That's great.

[1bigdawg]

We have finished tied for 5th/6th in the SEC West 3 of the last four years. That is only one step from last place, one step up from any coach we have ever had.

[BB30]

When he came here, South Alabama did not have a football program. I don't recall him telling us that we would be losing to teams that don't even exist right now as being part of the process. We did not raise our national profile this year. In fact, all we did was prove to some that as long as we beat the confederates, our fan base is happy. Crabs in a god damn bucket.

If you think we raised our national profile this year, you are nuts. The narrative about MSU right now is that Dak carried the program on his back for two years and now that he is gone, it is back to the Weed Wacker Bowl. This year did nothing to disprove that narrative.

So, in your opinion should we fire Mullen? What are your realistic expectations of our football program? Throw out some numbers and records that you would be satisfied with. We are not nor will we probably ever be a consistent contender, at least not in the near future. If you weren't a born and raised state fan and you had offers from Alabama, LSU, Louisville, State, and Texas A&M where would you go?

[Liverpooldawg]

Absolutely. And he has more resources than any State coach has ever had.

Unfortunately- we can't compare Mullen to Charlie Shira- we have to compare him to Saban, Yaw Yaw, Gus Bus, Sumlin, Bert, and Freezus.

Relatively speaking we are no better off in the SEC facility and money wise than we ever were. The SEC has been the strongest that any conference has ever been for the last 15 years and we are doing better than what we do historically despite that. Great argument for Mullen Random, thanks!

[lamont]

Some of y'all are complaining about the groceries when all that matter is what comes OUT of the kitchen.

Here's the fact. Mullen beats teams that have more talent than us all the time. Every time he beats Auburn, aTm, OM, and when he beat LSU. Beating Bama means you are probably the NC unless you are OM and can't finish.

Could or should Mullen recruit better? Sure. Any of us could do better at our job. But I'm going to judge him strictly by his on field production and not by his recruiting rankings.

Every team is going to lose guys in recruiting and especially after coaching changes (which granted we have a bunch of).


But every year with Mullen we are raising our national profile and it will pay off if we are not impatient. He told us when he came here that it was going to be a process.

What came out of the kitchen was 5-7 and losses to South Alabama, BYU, Kentucky, and the like.

And next season doesn't look overly promising with an OL to fix, a bottom half SEC group of WR's, and the hope that a bunch of jucos pan out by games 3, 4, and 5 this Fall

[HancockCountyDog]

What have we been historically?

I don't get this mindset. Clemson hadn't won the ACC in 20 years before Dabo did it in 2011. I've been to Clemson, I can promise you there is nothing in Clemson that should make Starkville ashamed of anything.

If you have a coach who is happy winning 6-9 games and a fan base that will accept it, and you are willing to pay him 4.5 million dollars to achieve those goals, then no one should be surprised when we lose recruiting battles to programs like Louisville who think that their program should be in the playoff. Right or Wrong, that is what they think.

[msstate7]

If Urban was in Starkville he'd be finishing 2nd or 3rd at the worst every year in the west. That's a great coach. Finishing 4 - 6 against the mediocre coaching in the west ain't a great coach. He has done nothing as a head coach to be considered great. Urban, Saban, Harbaugh ... they've gone to schools that historically don't win a lot and turned them into winners and conference champs. That's great.

You're actually gonna compare Mullen to one of the 1-2 best coaches in the country? Who the hell said Mullen was as good as urban? Smh

Who is the stone cold lock coach we go get that whips the sec west on the recruiting trail and pushes bama for the west?

[Liverpooldawg]

Neither of you are correct. No stat or ranking does that. Every single place you look for a coaches record doesn't stop with regular season. They count every game no matter how you want state your case it is not correct and you can't link any stat or historian who does that. You both are dead wrong

They are only doing it to make Mullen look as bad as possible during recruiting season. I can't believe y'all haven't figured that out by now. It's no coincidence they drag this stuff up now.

[Really Clark?]

I will and have admitted he did a decent job with Relf. Games like 5 picks against LSU in '10 weren't good tho.

And of course there is Dak and I'm on the Fitz bandwagon. Now if our Oline and receivers could be gotten up to that caliber.

Relf only had 6 picks a year in 2010. He did have 2 against LSU

[dawgday166]

You're actually gonna compare Mullen to one of the 1-2 best coaches in the country? Who the hell said Mullen was as good as urban? Smh

Who is the stone cold lock coach we go get that whips the sec west on the recruiting trail and pushes bama for the west?

I'm 'splaining what great is. Mullen is a good coach. He's done nuthin to be considered "great" yet.

ETA: Meyer believes in recruiting. He'd recruit much closer to equal to everyone not named Saban at Bama. We'd also probably have some Oline recruits that were further than 2 hours drive from Starkville. And then he'd coach circles around the other SEC W coaches during games.

[HancockCountyDog]

They are only doing it to make Mullen look as bad as possible during recruiting season. I can't believe y'all haven't figured that out by now. It's no coincidence they drag this stuff up now.

Come on, people are bitching after a recruit drops us for a different school. Should we be happy? Are we allowed to be upset that our best HS DL commit, (since April) from a school coached by a bulldog, and whom we hired their former coach, has now two weeks before signing day left our recruiting class.

The reason people are brining up the results, is because the inability to recruit high caliber athletes directly impacts the product on the field and is how we end up losing to South Alabama at freaking home.

[Bdawg]

Some of y'all are complaining about the groceries when all that matter is what comes OUT of the kitchen.

Here's the fact. Mullen beats teams that have more talent than us all the time. Every time he beats Auburn, aTm, OM, and when he beat LSU. Beating Bama means you are probably the NC unless you are OM and can't finish.

Could or should Mullen recruit better? Sure. Any of us could do better at our job. But I'm going to judge him strictly by his on field production and not by his recruiting rankings.

Every team is going to lose guys in recruiting and especially after coaching changes (which granted we have a bunch of).


But every year with Mullen we are raising our national profile and it will pay off if we are not impatient. He told us when he came here that it was going to be a process.

What came out of the kitchen last year was a s***burger in my opinion(save the egg bowl). And to me, if you don't want s***burgers, you better start with good quality groceries! All in all though, I think Mullen is a good coach and has taken us to higher level. But I think what most people are saying(including me) is if Mullen doesn't recruit better or at least quit losing players that we want, than we have reached our ceiling.

The Bear "It's amazing how many times the team with the best players win"

[Liverpooldawg]

I don't get this mindset. Clemson hadn't won the ACC in 20 years before Dabo did it in 2011. I've been to Clemson, I can promise you there is nothing in Clemson that should make Starkville ashamed of anything.

If you have a coach who is happy winning 6-9 games and a fan base that will accept it, and you are willing to pay him 4.5 million dollars to achieve those goals, then no one should be surprised when we lose recruiting battles to programs like Louisville who think that their program should be in the playoff. Right or Wrong, that is what they think.
Clemson had been a solid program for 40 years for the most part. You have to do what we are doing over the long haul to build a base. My mindset is I don't want to do what we have always done, and that is what y'all are advocating. It's the same old stuff that has always killed us whenever we get close. Patience grasshopper.

[msstate7]

I'm 'splaining what great is. Mullen is a good coach. He's done nuthin to be considered "great" yet.

Well if great coach like urban is the goal, good luck... everyone besides Ohio state, bama, and Michigan are looking

[Liverpooldawg]

Come on, people are bitching after a recruit drops us for a different school. Should we be happy? Are we allowed to be upset that our best HS DL commit, (since April) from a school coached by a bulldog, and whom we hired their former coach, has now two weeks before signing day left our recruiting class.

The reason people are brining up the results, is because the inability to recruit high caliber athletes directly impacts the product on the field and is how we end up losing to South Alabama at freaking home.
Actually during recruiting season the absolute worst thing you can do is bitch. Y'all are playing somebody else's game, not ours. I HOPE it isn't intentional.

[Really Clark?]

If Urban was in Starkville he'd be finishing 2nd or 3rd at the worst every year in the west. That's a great coach. Finishing 4 - 6 against the mediocre coaching in the west ain't a great coach. He has done nothing as a head coach to be considered great. Urban, Saban, Harbaugh ... they've gone to schools that historically don't win a lot and turned them into winners and conference champs. That's great.

Saban did no such thing. He was about to get run off at MI St until he FINALLY had a 9 win season after years of .500. And Urban won a lot at Utah but did not take a bad Power 5 school and turn it around in a difficult conference. He never did that.

[Bubb Rubb]

Yea it is ... go look at the offensive rankings for each year he's been here. I do think he's a great offensive mind tho. But maybe also that had a lot to do with some guy named Urban. He seems to develop QBs pretty good himself.

No it's not. You're embarrassing yourself.

The QB's that Urban developed...Mullen was his QB coach/offensive coordinator. I'll hang up and listen as you tell me the list of QBs Urban has put in the league since Mullen left him.

[Liverpooldawg]

What came out of the kitchen was 5-7 and losses to South Alabama, BYU, Kentucky, and the like.

And next season doesn't look overly promising with an OL to fix, a bottom half SEC group of WR's, and the hope that a bunch of jucos pan out by games 3, 4, and 5 this Fall
Bitching about recruiting and then making a negative recruiting pitch that Freeze would be proud of, ok.

[Liverpooldawg]

Saban did no such thing. He was about to get run off at MI St until he FINALLY had a 9 win season after years of .500. And Urban won a lot at Utah but did not take a bad Power 5 school and turn it around in a difficult conference. He never did that.

Don't confuse them with reality.

[dawgday166]

Well if great coach like urban is the goal, good luck... everyone besides Ohio state, bama, and Michigan are looking

There are some others I might consider great that aren't quite in those 3 coaches' tier. Only thing I'm saying is Mullen hasn't proven to me just yet that he is a "great" coach.

Or ... maybe he's a great defensive coach since, with the exception of Dak and a couple of others, all our NFL guys a big time defense guys.

[Bubb Rubb]

We have finished tied for 5th/6th in the SEC West 3 of the last four years. That is only one step from last place, one step up from any coach we have ever had.

Three teams in our division have recently won national championships. Another has been cheating their asses off. Yet another is in the top 15 every year. That leaves us and Arkansas - and we hold our own.

90% of all programs in America would have similar results, regardless of who was coaching them.

[HancockCountyDog]

Actually during recruiting season the absolute worst thing you can do is bitch. Y'all are playing somebody else's game, not ours. I HOPE it isn't intentional.

I haven't posted in months - so I'm not sure how I have contributed to Odom flipping to Lville. Just let me know when it is ok to comment on a recruit already flipping from MSU?

Me not posting hasn't helped.

[smootness]

Yea it is ... go look at the offensive rankings for each year he's been here. I do think he's a great offensive mind tho. But maybe also that had a lot to do with some guy named Urban. He seems to develop QBs pretty good himself.

Yes, Cardale Jones and JT Barrett just skyrocketed under his tutelage.

[lamont]

Link one place that only counts a coaches regular season. Just one. How bout all the articles that uses bowl records against a coach when discussing postseason failures, etc. The games count both ways and if he was 0-7 in bowl games you damn sure would be counting those losses.

The AD's office. Coaches get hired and fired for their regular season record- not their bowl record

[RougeDawg]

Mullen has his issues, as all coaches do from time to time. But he is a great offensive football coach. That's not even debatable. He made us competitive with a midget for a QB, and then he won with Chris Relf.

This post is what makes hud recruiting so frustrating. He's doing all of the things he does with majority 3 star guys. Give him 3.5-4 star teams and see how much better we'd be. It's beblike iogradinf from a mustang to a corvette for street racing. Sure a mustang can win some races but a corvette gives you a better chance each and every race.

[Liverpooldawg]

I haven't posted in months - so I'm not sure how I have contributed to Odom flipping to Lville. Just let me know when it is ok to comment on a recruit already flipping from MSU?

Me not posting hasn't helped.

So you only post to bitch about recruiting late in the recruiting season? It ain't gonna help and you never know, it might hurt. It's fact that posts on this board are used by UM in recruiting. Does it hurt? Who knows, it dang sure doesn't help though.

[Liverpooldawg]

The AD's office. Coaches get hired and fired for their regular season record- not their bowl record

LOL, you do realize you just said national championships don't matter.

[dawgday166]

No it's not. You're embarrassing yourself.

The QB's that Urban developed...Mullen was his QB coach/offensive coordinator. I'll hang up and listen as you tell me the list of QBs Urban has put in the league since Mullen left him.

Sure ... if you think so. Go look at the actual offensive rankings.

Cardale Jones is in the league too. JT Barrett still has time to get there too ... not sure he will. Alex Smith and Tebow also played for Urban. And Urban won a Natty with his 3rd string QB.

ETA: I'm not discounting what Dak has done. But some need to consider how much of that was just Dak being Dak.

[msstate7]

There are some others I might consider great that aren't quite in those 3 coaches' tier. Only thing I'm saying is Mullen hasn't proven to me just yet that he is a "great" coach.

Or ... maybe he's a great defensive coach since, with the exception of Dak and a couple of others, all our NFL guys a big time defense guys.

I'm not ready to say Mullen is great either, but his age should be considered. Saban is 65. Urban is 52. Harbaugh is 53. Jimbo fisher is 51. Mullen is 44. I think the 50s is where coaches peak

[dawgday166]

I'm not ready to say Mullen is great either, but his age should be considered. Saban is 65. Urban is 52. Harbaugh is 53. Jimbo fisher is 51. Mullen is 44. I think the 50s is where coaches peak

I'm ok with that and have been trying to stay there myself. You gotta like recruiting (or at least do it very well) to ever hope to be a great college coach tho.

ETA: Howland is a great coach, even tho he's never won it all. I've personally never wavered with him and wouldn't unless we sucked for about 4 years in a row. He's proven before (as a HC) that he knows what he's doing.

[lamont]

What have we been historically?

Our history began in 1991 when we finally decided to operate like an SEC football program

We have been a team that could compete in the West except when ravaged by probation or the when we let Templeton actually make the hire. Thank goodness we didn't allow him to make other hires like Bobby Wallace and Dwayne Reboul

[lamont]

Relatively speaking we are no better off in the SEC facility and money wise than we ever were. The SEC has been the strongest that any conference has ever been for the last 15 years and we are doing better than what we do historically despite that. Great argument for Mullen Random, thanks!

This is simply not true

25 years ago we operated on the same level as the La Tech's, Memphis, and the Southern Miss types in D-1. We had a 35K seat stadium in the 1980's.

Today our facilities and football budget is in the top 1/3 of college football. We are nowhere close to what we used to be

[Really Clark?]

The AD's office. Coaches get hired and fired for their regular season record- not their bowl record

Get out of here. If they are getting fired over on the field performance it's taken as a whole of their career at that school. Both regular season and post season are looked at. The saying is "you never hire or fire a coach off of one game". That saying, which many do believe in, is not rooted in bowl games. But is the basis of what not to do like with LSU last year and how they've pulled the trigger this year.

[Liverpooldawg]

Our history began in 1991 when we finally decided to operate like an SEC football program

We have been a team that could compete in the West except when ravaged by probation or the when we let Templeton actually make the hire. Thank goodness we didn't allow him to make other hires like Bobby Wallace and Dwayne Reboul

LOL, it doesn't work like that.

[Liverpooldawg]

This is simply not true

25 years ago we operated on the same level as the La Tech's, Memphis, and the Southern Miss types in D-1. We had a 35K seat stadium in the 1980's.

Today our facilities and football budget is in the top 1/3 of college football. We are nowhere close to what we used to be

I totally agree we are lightyears ahead of where we were in absolute terms, BUT we play in the SEC West and we are exactly where we have always been there relatively speaking.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

Your just now getting to that fact?

[Bubb Rubb]

Sure ... if you think so. Go look at the actual offensive rankings.

Cardale Jones is in the league too. JT Barrett still has time to get there too ... not sure he will. Alex Smith and Tebow also played for Urban. And Urban won a Natty with his 3rd string QB.

ETA: I'm not discounting what Dak has done. But some need to consider how much of that was just Dak being Dak.

Cardale Jones is shit. JT Barnett will never play QB in the league. Alex Smith and Tebow played for Mullen under Urban. Mullen left for Tebow's last year, but Tebow credits Mullen more than anyone else for his development.

[HancockCountyDog]

Cardale Jones is shit. JT Barnett will never play QB in the league. Alex Smith and Tebow played for Mullen under Urban. Mullen left for Tebow's last year, but Tebow credits Mullen more than anyone else for his development.

Anyone that questions Mullen's ability to develop QB's is simply trying to start shit. His record speaks for itself.

[Quaoarsking]

And next season doesn't look overly promising with an OL to fix, a bottom half SEC group of WR's, and the hope that a bunch of jucos pan out by games 3, 4, and 5 this Fall

False. We have the best QB in the SEC and the 4th or 5th best head coach. We'll win at least 9 or 10 games.

[lamont]

LOL, you do realize you just said national championships don't matter.

That's not what I said at all. How many schools will fire you for not winning the NC? 5?

The regular season is what counts for coaches- the rest is fluff. Hell, Bear Bryant lost 7 bowl games in a row and tied another- Bama fans still claim NC's for some of those seasons

[lamont]

LOL, you do realize you just said national championships don't matter.

That's not what I said at all. How many schools will fire you for not winning the NC? 5?

The regular season is what counts for coaches- the rest is fluff. Hell, Bear Bryant lost 7 bowl games in a row and tied another- Bama fans still claim NC's for some of those seasons

[dawgday166]

Cardale Jones is shit. JT Barnett will never play QB in the league. Alex Smith and Tebow played for Mullen under Urban. Mullen left for Tebow's last year, but Tebow credits Mullen more than anyone else for his development.

Because of attitude dude. That's what makes Dak you know Dak. That's what has made him (so far) better than every QB taken before him. Dan didn't give Dak that magical attitude nor those inherent leadership skills.

Urban was able to harness Cardale's talent long enough (even despite the attitude) to win a Natty with him, cause I guarantee you he has at least the same talent Dak does.

[Jarius]

I totally agree we are lightyears ahead of where we were in absolute terms, BUT we play in the SEC West and we are exactly where we have always been there relatively speaking.

You can only make so many facility upgrades with all of that money. At some point more money stops helping as much. The extra money that we are receiving is helping us much more than the schools getting extra money that have always had a lot of money

[dawgday166]

Anyone that questions Mullen's ability to develop QB's is simply trying to start shit. His record speaks for itself.

I'm not questioning that. Clark said he developed Relf and Tyler and my point is, and I'm not knocking Dan on this, is sometimes you can't develop a QB past a certain point no matter what.

My other point is: There is more to offense than QB development ... like OL play, WRs that can stretch the field, RBs that can see the hole and pass protect, etc.

ETA: Saban don't develop QBs worth anything NFL wise. But he wins Nattys with good OL play, WRs that get open, and good RBs.

[BB30]

Our history began in 1991 when we finally decided to operate like an SEC football program

We have been a team that could compete in the West except when ravaged by probation or the when we let Templeton actually make the hire. Thank goodness we didn't allow him to make other hires like Bobby Wallace and Dwayne Reboul

So, historically speaking, starting in 91 we could compete for the west as long as we weren't on probation(CHEATING) and the Croom Debacle. We have competed for the west exactly 3 times since 91... In the 90s the west was not nearly as strong as it is now. So in 25 years we have competed for the west 3 times and you consider that being a consistent competitor in the west? Jackie lost the program before sanctions ever hit. He basically had a good 3-4 year run in a down west. Other than that and 2014 when have we realistically competed for the west? Again in 25 years we have had a chance 3 times.

[BB30]

1990 5-6
1991 7-5
1992 7-5
1993 3-6
1994 8-4
1995 3-8
1996 5-6
1997 7-4
1998 8-5
1999 10-2
2000 8-4
2001 3-8
2002 3-9
2003 2-10
2004 3-8
2005 3-8
2006 3-9
2007 8-5
2008 4-8

Really competed for the west.....

[BB30]

Now Mullen's tenure

2009 5-7
2010 9-4
2011 7-6
2012 8-5
2013 7-6
2014 10-3
2015 9-4
2016 6-7

[lamont]

False. We have the best QB in the SEC and the 4th or 5th best head coach. We'll win at least 9 or 10 games.

You are smoking crack.

We have to replace 3 OL starters and 4/10 on the 2 deep. That's never turned out well for us.
We also lost 4 Sr's on the DL and that's going to cause problems also.

We are a 7 win team in 2017 at best- and less if Fitz gets hurt.

[Really Clark?]

You can only make so many facility upgrades with all of that money. At some point more money stops helping as much. The extra money that we are receiving is helping us much more than the schools getting extra money that have always had a lot of money

I disagree. It's not nearly the diminishing return that people think. If it was just one year, I would agree but over the last 5 years, depending on the school, we are as much as $400 MIL behind what they have brought in. Bama is to the point they are hoarding their new corrdinators and assistant coaches off the field until a spot opens. The auxiliary staff and student athlete support staff ratio is lower. The recruiting budget that the AD office gives the staff is millions behind other schools. What happens when our budget drops back down from the ramp up of the baseball stadium expansion? This amount of budget difference will be an issue until we are able to get to the point where no more than $100 million separates from the SEC average to Top third over a 5 year period.

[msstate7]

1990 5-6
1991 7-5
1992 7-5
1993 3-6
1994 8-4
1995 3-8
1996 5-6
1997 7-4
1998 8-5
1999 10-2
2000 8-4
2001 3-8
2002 3-9
2003 2-10
2004 3-8
2005 3-8
2006 3-9
2007 8-5
2008 4-8

Really competed for the west.....

100-120 (.450)

[msstate7]

Now Mullen's tenure

2009 5-7
2010 9-4
2011 7-6
2012 8-5
2013 7-6
2014 10-3
2015 9-4
2016 6-7

61-42 (.590)

[Liverpooldawg]

That's not what I said at all. How many schools will fire you for not winning the NC? 5?

The regular season is what counts for coaches- the rest is fluff. Hell, Bear Bryant lost 7 bowl games in a row and tied another- Bama fans still claim NC's for some of those seasons
How many will hire you for winning one? You are just trolling.

[Liverpooldawg]

That's not what I said at all. How many schools will fire you for not winning the NC? 5?

The regular season is what counts for coaches- the rest is fluff. Hell, Bear Bryant lost 7 bowl games in a row and tied another- Bama fans still claim NC's for some of those seasons
One more, you do know that back in the day the rankings were not updated after the bowls? They are now.

[Liverpooldawg]

You can only make so many facility upgrades with all of that money. At some point more money stops helping as much. The extra money that we are receiving is helping us much more than the schools getting extra money that have always had a lot of money

Yes, but it hasn't let us actually make up any ground the people we are chasing. For every upgrade we have made they have made at least one.

[Liverpooldawg]

I disagree. It's not nearly the diminishing return that people think. If it was just one year, I would agree but over the last 5 years, depending on the school, we are as much as $400 MIL behind what they have brought in. Bama is to the point they are hoarding their new corrdinators and assistant coaches off the field until a spot opens. The auxiliary staff and student athlete support staff ratio is lower. The recruiting budget that the AD office gives the staff is millions behind other schools. What happens when our budget drops back down from the ramp up of the baseball stadium expansion? This amount of budget difference will be an issue until we are able to get to the point where no more than $100 million separates from the SEC average to Top third over a 5 year period.

Exactly

[GreenheadDawg]

I literally just don't give a shit anymore. We suck at recruiting and that will continue as long as Mullen is coach. Pretty sad to think about because I think Mullen could really compete if he could actually get some talent at multiple positions instead of sprinkled here and there. Oh well, life goes on.

[Jarius]

Yes, but it hasn't let us actually make up any ground the people we are chasing. For every upgrade we have made they have made at least one.

Recruits don't go to other schools and their facilities stand out as way better than MSU's any more. We have a very nice new facility and a very nice stadium. It's not quite as nice as some of the others we play but it's not something that stands out to players we recruit. It used to stand out very much. That is how our budget increase has closed the gap. We don't lose recruits for that reason any more. We recruit at an elite level in every single sport on campus except for football. We have a head football coach that isn't a very good recruiter. That's our problem. It's not a budget issue. It's a Dan Mullen issue.

[Sacrifice]

Mullen has finished better than 4th place IN THE WEST one time in 8 years.
This is where we're at as a program. Mullen will win 7 or 8 games a year and go 2-4 or 3-3 in the west.

[HoopsDawg]

We don't work hard enough at it. It's really very simple.

Thank you. Don't make it something it's not. We need staff members that are passionate about recruiting. You can't have that developmental program mentality on the recruiting trail. It's 24/7, 365.

[HoopsDawg]

Sorry but Mullen is a great QB coach and keeper of a program. Keeps discipline in line and guys graduating. Everything else he's just meh. Just a guy.

Mullen hired a solid D-coordinator and he is turning the defense over to him. If he would fire the CC boys and fill out the rest of his staff with T-buck type recruiters then we would be in a great situation. Can Mullen do that? Most people think no.

[dawgday166]

Mullen has finished better than 4th place IN THE WEST one time in 8 years.
This is where we're at as a program. Mullen will win 7 or 8 games a year and go 2-4 or 3-3 in the west.

He's gone 2-4 every year except '14. 7 years of no more than 2 wins in SEC W.

[Mjoelner34]

Damn! Recruiting sucks! Even our scoreboard camera flipped!**

http://i.imgur.com/mSpmbIz.jpg

[Bubb Rubb]

Because of attitude dude. That's what makes Dak you know Dak. That's what has made him (so far) better than every QB taken before him. Dan didn't give Dak that magical attitude nor those inherent leadership skills.

Urban was able to harness Cardale's talent long enough (even despite the attitude) to win a Natty with him, cause I guarantee you he has at least the same talent Dak does.

This is stupid.

Attitude is part of the development of a QB. Urban won a championship with Jones but it wasn't because of him. He was a third string QB if you recall. The offense was super simplified and run heavy and they relied on a stout defense.

Dak came in as a very talented and undervalued recruit with a strong work ethic, but Dak wasn't DAK until after a couple of years in the system.

You keep moving the goalposts with your arguments.

[smootness]

Because of attitude dude.

No. Cardale Jones can't play QB in the NFL because he isn't good at being a QB. He has a big arm and size and can move decently well for his size. That's literally it. If you think those things and 'attitude' are the only things you need to be an NFL QB...

He has no idea what he's doing, he can't read defenses, and his accuracy sucks. But other than that, he's got everything it takes**

[dawgday166]

This is stupid.

Attitude is part of the development of a QB. Urban won a championship with Jones but it wasn't because of him. He was a third string QB if you recall. The offense was super simplified and run heavy and they relied on a stout defense.

Dak came in as a very talented and undervalued recruit with a strong work ethic, but Dak wasn't DAK until after a couple of years in the system.

You keep moving the goalposts with your arguments.

No I don't. The internal drive and attitude was always there ... as documented in the multitudes of spotlight videos done by the NFL this season. As explained by his HC in High School, etc.

Not saying Dan didn't do a lot or doesn't develop QBs well. But I'm not putting him on a pedestal as some do solely on that. I'm not calling him a great head coach yet either.

Some want to give him ALL the credit 100% of the time and when anything goes wrong with the football team its always all the subordinates mistakes or we're MSU and can't compete so Dan is working miracles.

[dawgday166]

No. Cardale Jones can't play QB in the NFL because he isn't good at being a QB. He has a big arm and size and can move decently well for his size. That's literally it. If you think those things and 'attitude' are the only things you need to be an NFL QB...

He has no idea what he's doing, he can't read defenses, and his accuracy sucks. But other than that, he's got everything it takes**

Now this might be true ... I haven't watched him in the pros but he might could read defenses better if he had the work ethic also. He seemed to do pretty decent in the CFP playoffs 2 years ago (1 of which was Bama) ... but nobody had much film on him either going into that.

[Bubb Rubb]

No I don't. The internal drive and attitude was always there ... as documented in the multitudes of spotlight videos done by the NFL this season. As explained by his HC in High School, etc.

Not saying Dan didn't do a lot or doesn't develop QBs well. But I'm not putting him on a pedestal as some do solely on that. I'm not calling him a great head coach yet either.

Some want to give him ALL the credit 100% of the time and when anything goes wrong with the football team its always all the subordinates mistakes or we're MSU and can't compete so Dan is working miracles.

I didn't call Dan a great head coach. He has his flaws. I said he is a great offensive coach because he is. He's won a lot of big games as an offensive coordinator. He's developed great QBs. You decided to say that was because of Urban Meyer and not him. You discredit is development of QBs (Dak was Dak, the others were Meyer, etc.). As for your last sentence, that's a massive over-generalization that you are making to support your argument. A lot of folks on this and other boards call Dan out harshly. I've done it too at times. I think you see what you want to see and not what's the truth, because you have an agenda.

[RougeDawg]

He's gone 2-4 every year except '14. 7 years of no more than 2 wins in SEC W.

And that 2-4 yearly record has included SEC East patsy Kentucky.

[dawgday166]

I didn't call Dan a great head coach. He has his flaws. I said he is a great offensive coach because he is. He's won a lot of big games as an offensive coordinator. He's developed great QBs. You decided to say that was because of Urban Meyer and not him. You discredit is development of QBs (Dak was Dak, the others were Meyer, etc.). As for your last sentence, that's a massive over-generalization that you are making to support your argument. A lot of folks on this and other boards call Dan out harshly. I've done it too at times. I think you see what you want to see and not what's the truth, because you have an agenda.

Well ... Urban has done that in several places ... before and after he hired Dan. Does he get any credit? So Dan gets all the credit when he was working for Urban. My agenda is to improve the 6-23 mark (or something like that) against Bama, LSU, AU, and TAM. And not lose the USA, a mediocre to poor BYU team, etc.

[Turfdawg67]

And that 2-4 yearly record has included SEC East patsy Kentucky.

*yawn* Another negative post from Roguedawg.

[dawgday166]

And that 2-4 yearly record has included SEC East patsy Kentucky.

2 - 4 is just against the west. With the luck of the draw (having played weak SEC E foes the last several years) we have usually been 4-4 in SEC.

[Bubb Rubb]

Well ... Urban has done that in several places ... before and after he hired Dan. Does he get any credit? So Dan gets all the credit when he was working for Urban. My agenda is to improve the 6-23 mark (or something like that) against Bama, LSU, AU, and TAM. And not lose the USA, a mediocre to poor BYU team, etc.

Does Dan get any credit?

I guess losing to Louisiana Tech really tarnished Nick Saban's resume, too.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

Does Dan get any credit?

I guess losing to Louisiana Tech really tarnished Nick Saban's resume, too.

ULM....

[Political Hack]

I like that we bring in kids that aren't afraid of hard work. No room for the Kimchee, Big Softy, daddy drama Shea, etc... in a good program. It's going to take years and years to recover from being a consistent cellar dweller in the SEC. That's the bottom line. We don't have the budget to recruit with Florida, LSU, or Bama and we don't cheat like Ole Miss and Auburn. It is what it is. But there's no reason we can be a Wisconsin, TCU, Washington, Nebraska, etc.. and compete on the national stage. CDM did it with Dak and he'll have another chance with KT. We're not Bama. We'll never be Bama. But we can make a push once every few years and be a consistent bowl team.

People in the athletic department have said it for many years now, Va Tech is the model we're looking for. Consistently respectable, great atmosphere, hard working program, and we occasionally get a shot to make a push for a championship. Mullen's got us there already. We just have to finish one of our pushes to get over that hump.

[Bubb Rubb]

I like that we bring in kids that aren't afraid of hard work. No room for the Kimchee, Big Softy, daddy drama Shea, etc... in a good program. It's going to take years and years to recover from being a consistent cellar dweller in the SEC. That's the bottom line. We don't have the budget to recruit with Florida, LSU, or Bama and we don't cheat like Ole Miss and Auburn. It is what it is. But there's no reason we can be a Wisconsin, TCU, Washington, Nebraska, etc.. and compete on the national stage. CDM did it with Dak and he'll have another chance with KT. We're not Bama. We'll never be Bama. But we can make a push once every few years and be a consistent bowl team.

People in the athletic department have said it for many years now, Va Tech is the model we're looking for. Consistently respectable, great atmosphere, hard working program, and we occasionally get a shot to make a push for a championship. Mullen's got us there already. We just have to finish one of our pushes to get over that hump.

Rational post is rational.

[Jarius]

I bet the rest of our athletic programs wish that they could use that excuse. I guess they will all just continue to recruit lights and and compete for championships instead.

[dawgday166]

I bet the rest of our athletic programs wish that they could use that excuse. I guess they will all just continue to recruit lights and and compete for championships instead.

Excellente' post. We don't get Kys talent in basketball and never willl but ... we showed up with a little less talent and smacked them in the mouth the other night.

Ooohhh ... but football's different ****

[smootness]

I bet the rest of our athletic programs wish that they could use that excuse. I guess they will all just continue to recruit lights and and compete for championships instead.

People keep trying to equate our baseball and basketball programs with football, and they're not the same.

[Jarius]

People keep trying to equate our baseball and basketball programs with football, and they're not the same.

I'm not just comparing them. I'm comparing our entire athletic department. Football is the only one where "the city of Starkville" is an issue. Facilities are an issue. Budget is an issue. None of the other sports have this issue. At some point you just have to look at Dan Mullen and say he is what he is. It's not our budget's fault that we have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. It's Mullen's fault. We can and should recruit better in football than we do. I don't think anyone is asking for us to stock pile 5 stars like Alabama either. I'm also not advocating to get rid of Mullen. It's just an obvious observation that some people want to stick their head in the sand about.

[MedDawg]

If Urban was in Starkville he'd be finishing 2nd or 3rd at the worst every year in the west. That's a great coach. Finishing 4 - 6 against the mediocre coaching in the west ain't a great coach. He has done nothing as a head coach to be considered great. Urban, Saban, Harbaugh ... they've gone to schools that historically don't win a lot and turned them into winners and conference champs. That's great.

Yeah! Why can't Mississippi State have one of the 3 best coaches in college football?

[Johnson85]

Sorry but Mullen is a great QB coach and keeper of a program. Keeps discipline in line and guys graduating. Everything else he's just meh. Just a guy.

He's a little bit more than that. If you want to compare him to Saban, Meyer, Harbough, etc., yes, he's just meh. But he's still at the top of the rest of the coaching ranks. Yes, he's not very good at recruiting, but overall, he's only meh if you compare him to the top four or five coaches in the country.

[Bully13]

People keep trying to equate our baseball and basketball programs with football, and they're not the same.

That's also a good point.

[Dawg61]

Yeah! Why can't Mississippi State have one of the 3 best coaches in college football?

Oh we will as soon as we hire HC Kyle Whittingham and C34 as OL coach. We will never lose to Bama or LSU and we will always have top 10 recruiting classes then!!

[smootness]

I'm not just comparing them. I'm comparing our entire athletic department. Football is the only one where "the city of Starkville" is an issue. Facilities are an issue. Budget is an issue. None of the other sports have this issue. At some point you just have to look at Dan Mullen and say he is what he is. It's not our budget's fault that we have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. It's Mullen's fault. We can and should recruit better in football than we do. I don't think anyone is asking for us to stock pile 5 stars like Alabama either. I'm also not advocating to get rid of Mullen. It's just an obvious observation that some people want to stick their head in the sand about.

We don't have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. That is fan-driven. No, we don't recruit great in football. That's different from 'epic meltdown'.

And I don't think it has all that much to do with Starkville, and I don't think really anybody is saying that. It primarily has to do with our program history, our resource disadvantage in the SEC, our track record in producing consistent NFL talent, and our recruiting style.

The resource disadvantage is not as important in other sports because it doesn't exist to the same degree in other sports. Football is far and away the largest budget, and that is where the disparity is greatest.

[Jarius]

We don't have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. That is fan-driven. No, we don't recruit great in football. That's different from 'epic meltdown'.

And I don't think it has all that much to do with Starkville, and I don't think really anybody is saying that. It primarily has to do with our program history, our resource disadvantage in the SEC, our track record in producing consistent NFL talent, and our recruiting style.

The resource disadvantage is not as important in other sports because it doesn't exist to the same degree in other sports. Football is far and away the largest budget, and that is where the disparity is greatest.

2009 and 2015 are the only 2 years in the Mullen era where we haven't had this sort of thing happen. It's not fan driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. It's not resource driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. If he would simply hang on to the recruits that he has flip on him every year he would be ranked where MSU should expect to be ranked on a yearly basis. It's not like he has to go out and expand his recruiting footprint to California. He just needs to not shit the bed in January with guys that he already has committed to his program. He's a really good developer and we could do way worse. To try and make excuses for him when every other sport on campus recruits just fine is just making excuses. He should be getting better at recruiting since he is, you know, building the program and changing that perception but he isn't. He's not taking the on the field results and improving the recruiting with those results. If he continues to win 6-8 games a year I'm ok with that. I'm just not going to make an excuse for him and act like he is something that he isn't, or act like other coaches couldn't come here and recruit way better than Mullen has recruited.

[Todd4State]

We don't have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. That is fan-driven. No, we don't recruit great in football. That's different from 'epic meltdown'.

And I don't think it has all that much to do with Starkville, and I don't think really anybody is saying that. It primarily has to do with our program history, our resource disadvantage in the SEC, our track record in producing consistent NFL talent, and our recruiting style.

The resource disadvantage is not as important in other sports because it doesn't exist to the same degree in other sports. Football is far and away the largest budget, and that is where the disparity is greatest.

Our football history is actually fairly comparable to our basketball history. We're not a powerhouse historically in basketball but yet Howland has loaded up on four stars and he even won a battle recently for Garrison Brooks. I'm pretty sure Dan wouldn't have even tried to get Brooks if the roles were reveresed. The guys we're landing now in basketball were in diapers when we went to the Final Four.

[Todd4State]

2009 and 2015 are the only 2 years in the Mullen era where we haven't had this sort of thing happen. It's not fan driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. It's not resource driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. If he would simply hang on to the recruits that he has flip on him every year he would be ranked where MSU should expect to be ranked on a yearly basis. It's not like he has to go out and expand his recruiting footprint to California. He just needs to not shit the bed in January with guys that he already has committed to his program. He's a really good developer and we could do way worse. To try and make excuses for him when every other sport on campus recruits just fine is just making excuses. He should be getting better at recruiting since he is, you know, building the program and changing that perception but he isn't. He's not taking the on the field results and improving the recruiting with those results. If he continues to win 6-8 games a year I'm ok with that. I'm just not going to make an excuse for him and act like he is something that he isn't, or act like other coaches couldn't come here and recruit way better than Mullen has recruited.

It's nice to see someone on this board that isn't a complete sheep.

[Dawg61]

It's nice to see someone on this board that isn't a complete sheep.

https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=http%3A%2F%2Freactiongifs.me%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F08%2Fice_cube_wtf.gif&key=MMn2pi4NKM72-kkVZoi14g

[HSVDawg]

Absolutely. And he has more resources than any State coach has ever had.

Unfortunately- we can't compare Mullen to Charlie Shira- we have to compare him to Saban, Yaw Yaw, Gus Bus, Sumlin, Bert, and Freezus.

You could make an argument, based on Mullen's body of work, that he is better than all of those coaches except Saban. Orgeron is a bit of a mystery due to small recent sample size, but if you include his OM tenure there is no way you can put him over Mullen. The problem then comes if / when A&M, Auburn, and Arkansas actually make legitimate hires to replace their current guys, who could realistically all be gone within the next year or two.

[Percho]

Come on, people are bitching after a recruit drops us for a different school. Should we be happy? Are we allowed to be upset that our best HS DL commit, (since April) from a school coached by a bulldog, and whom we hired their former coach, has now two weeks before signing day left our recruiting class.

The reason people are brining up the results, is because the inability to recruit high caliber athletes directly impacts the product on the field and is how we end up losing to South Alabama at freaking home.

What do you believe that we needed to do to keep Odom that has not been done?
Do you not think Dan Mullen understands that we need better players at all positions and is trying to get those players in a legal manner?

[Percho]

2009 and 2015 are the only 2 years in the Mullen era where we haven't had this sort of thing happen. It's not fan driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. It's not resource driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. If he would simply hang on to the recruits that he has flip on him every year he would be ranked where MSU should expect to be ranked on a yearly basis. It's not like he has to go out and expand his recruiting footprint to California. He just needs to not shit the bed in January with guys that he already has committed to his program. He's a really good developer and we could do way worse. To try and make excuses for him when every other sport on campus recruits just fine is just making excuses. He should be getting better at recruiting since he is, you know, building the program and changing that perception but he isn't. He's not taking the on the field results and improving the recruiting with those results. If he continues to win 6-8 games a year I'm ok with that. I'm just not going to make an excuse for him and act like he is something that he isn't, or act like other coaches couldn't come here and recruit way better than Mullen has recruited.

What do, you, believe he needs to do in order to hang on to those who are, "committed," whatever that means?

[Liverpooldawg]

Our football history is actually fairly comparable to our basketball history. We're not a powerhouse historically in basketball but yet Howland has loaded up on four stars and he even won a battle recently for Garrison Brooks. I'm pretty sure Dan wouldn't have even tried to get Brooks if the roles were reveresed. The guys we're landing now in basketball were in diapers when we went to the Final Four.

No its not, not even close. Come on man we have 6 SEC titles in basketball.

[lamont]

You could make an argument, based on Mullen's body of work, that he is better than all of those coaches except Saban. Orgeron is a bit of a mystery due to small recent sample size, but if you include his OM tenure there is no way you can put him over Mullen. The problem then comes if / when A&M, Auburn, and Arkansas actually make legitimate hires to replace their current guys, who could realistically all be gone within the next year or two.

There's no way in Hell you can say Mullen is better than Malzahn. Thats lunacy.

[Jarius]

What do, you, believe he needs to do in order to hang on to those who are, "committed," whatever that means?

He needs to keep Grantham as our one coach that doesn't have to be an ace recruiter and everyone else he has on staff needs to be as passionate about recruiting as Terrell Buckley. That won't get us to an Alabama level but at least we won't hear our flips saying someone else was "giving them more love". If I read that one more time I may vomit.

[HSVDawg]

There's no way in Hell you can say Mullen is better than Malzahn. Thats lunacy.

When you look at overall body of work compared to the resources available, you certainly could. Especially if you see Auburn's 2013 season for what it was....where they won 4 games with absolute million to one shot circus plays or last second drives. Throw that season out and you are left with a record that is not as good as Mullen's overall or SEC record. Anyway, it is definitely arguable, albeit certainly not definitive. Just about any Auburn fan you talk to in Alabama would trade Malzahn for Mullen in a second.

[lamont]

When you look at overall body of work compared to the resources available, you certainly could. Especially if you see Auburn's 2013 season for what it was....where they won 4 games with absolute million to one shot circus plays or last second drives. Throw that season out and you are left with a record that is not as good as Mullen's overall or SEC record. Anyway, it is definitely arguable, albeit certainly not definitive. Just about any Auburn fan you talk to in Alabama would trade Malzahn for Mullen in a second.

Malzahn has an SEC title and played for the NC...finished 2nd in the country
Malzahn earned a Sugar Bowl berth after rebuilding and filling the holes left by Chiz- who fell on his face once Malzahn left him. Yet Mullen's old boss keeps on rolling

And after earning that Sugar Bowl berth- in the same article that lists us as a team on the rise for 2017- it also lists Auburn. Auburn will be one of the 3 best teams in the SEC next year. Auburn fans are insane because they have to deal with Bama. Malzahn isnt going anywhere

[Dawg61]

He needs to keep Grantham as our one coach that doesn't have to be an ace recruiter and everyone else he has on staff needs to be as passionate about recruiting as Terrell Buckley. That won't get us to an Alabama level but at least we won't hear our flips saying someone else was "giving them more love". If I read that one more time I may vomit.

So he needs to fire everybody but Grantham & Buckley so we can average winning 1-2 more games a year? It's way more likely we will lose 1-2 more games and probably Dan Mullen by doing that than it is we will win 1-2 more games a year. We are never beating Saban and the 1 RAT team a year. 10 wins is our regular season ceiling 99 years outta 100. Doesn't matter what coach you bring in if you fire Mullen either. That ceiling won't ever get higher than that till Saban is gone. The Saban frustration is amazing. There needs to be a 30 for 30 just on it alone. Saban's Suicides.

[dawgday166]

So he needs to fire everybody but Grantham & Buckley so we can average winning 1-2 more games a year? It's way more likely we will lose 1-2 more games and probably Dan Mullen by doing that than it is we will win 1-2 more games a year. We are never beating Saban and the 1 RAT team a year. 10 wins is our regular season ceiling 99 years outta 100. Doesn't matter what coach you bring in if you fire Mullen either. That ceiling won't ever get higher than that till Saban is gone. The Saban frustration is amazing. There needs to be a 30 for 30 just on it alone. Saban's Suicides.

I won't argue this much except in this regard. Every year there a 4 low hanging teams we should go 3-1 against at a minimum IMO. We NEVER go anything but 2-2 against those teams except in 2014. And that year, we beat all but OM and they were the walking wounded when we played them. Should've been 5-1 agains the West.

We tend to beat the 2 really bad teams when we play them (although this year we beat what at the time what was a decent A&M team, just coming off a butt whupping by Bama tho).

[BrunswickDawg]

Malzahn has an SEC title and played for the NC...finished 2nd in the country
Malzahn earned a Sugar Bowl berth after rebuilding and filling the holes left by Chiz- who fell on his face once Malzahn left him. Yet Mullen's old boss keeps on rolling

And after earning that Sugar Bowl berth- in the same article that lists us as a team on the rise for 2017- it also lists Auburn. Auburn will be one of the 3 best teams in the SEC next year. Auburn fans are insane because they have to deal with Bama. Malzahn isnt going anywhere
And everyone - including lists like these-thought that Malzahn had an all world team with a Heisman Candidate QB in 2015, and a #6 preseason ranking. All that hype and talent and he was 7-6 and wound up with Sean White doing a Mike Hennig impersonation.

Malzahn caught lightening in a bottle with Cam. Then lucked into a lot of wins in '13. They will be no better in '17 than in '16.

[HSVDawg]

Malzahn has an SEC title and played for the NC...finished 2nd in the country
Malzahn earned a Sugar Bowl berth after rebuilding and filling the holes left by Chiz- who fell on his face once Malzahn left him. Yet Mullen's old boss keeps on rolling

And after earning that Sugar Bowl berth- in the same article that lists us as a team on the rise for 2017- it also lists Auburn. Auburn will be one of the 3 best teams in the SEC next year. Auburn fans are insane because they have to deal with Bama. Malzahn isnt going anywhere

Gene Chizik actually won a natty (1st in the country) and he was a terrible coach. Mark Helfrich duplicated Malzahn's accomplishment, also a terrible head coach. Anyone can have a one year wonder type season where everything goes right. From a sustainablity standpoint, Malzahn has been trending down. Nobody gives a damn about him making the Sugar Bowl because it is a diluted accomplishment compared to what it used to be when you can get there at 8-4 (how many times has Mullen been 8-4 or better?).

Auburn fans aren't all crazy. They are pissed because they have averaged less than 8 wins per season over the last 3 years, which is equivalent to averaging 5-6 wins per year at MSU.

[dawgday166]

Gene Chizik actually won a natty (1st in the country) and he was a terrible coach. Mark Helfrich duplicated Malzahn's accomplishment, also a terrible head coach. Anyone can have a one year wonder type season where everything goes right. From a sustainablity standpoint, Malzahn has been trending down. Nobody gives a damn about him making the Sugar Bowl because it is a diluted accomplishment compared to what it used to be when you can get there at 8-4 (how many times has Mullen been 8-4 or better?).

Auburn fans aren't all crazy. They are pissed because they have averaged less than 8 wins per season over the last 3 years, which is equivalent to averaging 5-6 wins per year at MSU.

Precisely ... hence 2014 and #1 for 5 weeks.

[Dawg61]

I won't argue this much except in this regard. Every year there a 4 low hanging teams we should go 3-1 against at a minimum IMO. We NEVER go anything but 2-2 against those teams except in 2014. And that year, we beat all but OM and they were the walking wounded when we played them. Should've been 5-1 agains the West.

We tend to beat the 2 really bad teams when we play them (although this year we beat what at the time what was a decent A&M team, just coming off a butt whupping by Bama tho).

Yup I won't argue that Dan is good for 1-2 turds a year and that doesn't include the annual Saban ass-whipping and the RAT ass-whipping. That puts us at 8-4. He averages 7.6 wins a year for us right now. Some years we will get to 9-10 wins. Some years we will only win 5-6 games. Every years we will get our ass handed to us by Saban & RAT. When's baseball season start again?

[HSVDawg]

Precisely ... hence 2014 and #1 for 5 weeks.

Somewhat of a bad example. We mostly beat the hell out of everyone on our schedule except Bama / OM. We were a pretty good team. We weren't bouncing 50 yard passes off of CB's hands for TD passes or combining a 100 yard missed field goal return for a TD with multiple missed field goals by our opponent in order to eek out victories and backdoor our way into the national title game. And we didn't have that kind of luck against our two big rivals like Auburn had against theirs. 2014 MSU would likely beat 2013 Auburn by multiple TD's.

[dawgday166]

Somewhat of a bad example. We mostly beat the hell out of everyone on our schedule except Bama / OM. We were a pretty good team. We weren't bouncing 50 yard passes off of CB's hands for TD passes or combining a 100 yard missed field goal return for a TD with multiple missed field goals by our opponent in order to eek out victories and backdoor our way into the national title game. And we didn't have that kind of luck against our two big rivals like Auburn had against theirs. 2014 MSU would likely beat 2013 Auburn by multiple TD's.

Agree with this. But also saying we caught everyone off guard, especially LSU and except maybe AU. The LSU team that played Bama later in the year would have been a tougher out than when we played them.

I'm also saying that we got pretty lucky that Dak, BMac, and Preston Smith all grew into the players they did grow into. BMac and Preston I believe (or at least 1 of them) are the reasons we never have 2* players on our commit lists anymore, cause the recruiting rankings missed "so badly" on those 2. So now if they commit to us they're automatically 3* (according to Rosebowl from back in 2014).

ETA: And I neglected to mention JRob, Day, & Beckwith and the players they became too.

[smootness]

Our football history is actually fairly comparable to our basketball history. We're not a powerhouse historically in basketball but yet Howland has loaded up on four stars and he even won a battle recently for Garrison Brooks. I'm pretty sure Dan wouldn't have even tried to get Brooks if the roles were reveresed. The guys we're landing now in basketball were in diapers when we went to the Final Four.

Basketball is still far more coach-driven than football.

[lamont]

And everyone - including lists like these-thought that Malzahn had an all world team with a Heisman Candidate QB in 2015, and a #6 preseason ranking. All that hype and talent and he was 7-6 and wound up with Sean White doing a Mike Hennig impersonation.

Malzahn caught lightening in a bottle with Cam. Then lucked into a lot of wins in '13. They will be no better in '17 than in '16.

My god man you have lost your mind.

5 star QB coming in that has been successful in D-1 already
Both RB's returning including the SEC's leading rusher in yards per game
7/8 WR's returning that included 2 highly recruited true freshman
3/5 of their OL and a 5-star OT coming in
Their DL loses Adams and Lawson- but Davidson started as true freshmen and 5-star Brown will be a Soph and take Adams place.
All 3 starting LB's return
3/4 of Secondary returns

Auburn has Bama at home. That game will be for the SEC title

[BrunswickDawg]

My god man you have lost your mind.

5 star QB coming in that has been successful in D-1 already
Both RB's returning including the SEC's leading rusher in yards per game
7/8 WR's returning that included 2 highly recruited true freshman
3/5 of their OL and a 5-star OT coming in
Their DL loses Adams and Lawson- but Davidson started as true freshmen and 5-star Brown will be a Soph and take Adams place.
All 3 starting LB's return
3/4 of Secondary returns

Auburn has Bama at home. That game will be for the SEC title
Again, all the same hype and talk that AU gets every year. Under Gus, they won't be any better. It's not crazy, it's what he has done with all the talent he has had.

[Jarius]

So he needs to fire everybody but Grantham & Buckley so we can average winning 1-2 more games a year? It's way more likely we will lose 1-2 more games and probably Dan Mullen by doing that than it is we will win 1-2 more games a year. We are never beating Saban and the 1 RAT team a year. 10 wins is our regular season ceiling 99 years outta 100. Doesn't matter what coach you bring in if you fire Mullen either. That ceiling won't ever get higher than that till Saban is gone. The Saban frustration is amazing. There needs to be a 30 for 30 just on it alone. Saban's Suicides.

I didn't say that he needs to fire everyone except for those 2. I said that everyone on our staff needs to at a minimum have the same intensity to recruit as Buckley does. I would imagine that there are more on our staff than Buckley that work hard on the recruiting trail. Hevesy and Sallach do almost nothing. Getting rid of those 2 are no brainers. If we want to have down years that result in us going 7-5 instead of down years where we go 5-7 we can't lose 2 of our top in state targets to programs the caliber of Louisville. I don't expect to be elite all the time or even most of the time. I also don't think it is ok to go 5-7 in today's college football at our university. Especially with the way we schedule and the team we draw every year from the SEC east.

[Todd4State]

Basketball is still far more coach-driven than football.

That's bullshit. If Howland was at SEMO State in Missouri you're telling me he would recruit just as well while also landing the top in state players?

[lamont]

Again, all the same hype and talk that AU gets every year. Under Gus, they won't be any better. It's not crazy, it's what he has done with all the talent he has had.

He hasnt had "all that talent"- that why they have had to play alot of young guys the last 2 years

[HancockCountyDog]

That's bullshit. If Howland was at SEMO State in Missouri you're telling me he would recruit just as well while also landing the top in state players?

Yes, he would.

Same way Pearl is getting kids at AU, the way Stans is getting big time players to Western Kentucky.

Same way That mad man at SC got kids to come to KSU.

[BrunswickDawg]

He hasnt had "all that talent"- that why they have had to play alot of young guys the last 2 years

Yeah, cause the 2013 #13, 2014 #8, 2015 #3, and 2016 #9 signing classes rated by Scout were just loaded with 3 stars and pumped up because of over signing***

[Dawg61]

I didn't say that he needs to fire everyone except for those 2. I said that everyone on our staff needs to at a minimum have the same intensity to recruit as Buckley does. I would imagine that there are more on our staff than Buckley that work hard on the recruiting trail. Hevesy and Sallach do almost nothing. Getting rid of those 2 are no brainers. If we want to have down years that result in us going 7-5 instead of down years where we go 5-7 we can't lose 2 of our top in state targets to programs the caliber of Louisville. I don't expect to be elite all the time or even most of the time. I also don't think it is ok to go 5-7 in today's college football at our university. Especially with the way we schedule and the team we draw every year from the SEC east.

Mullen has selective hearing with us fans. He only listens when he wants to. All other times it's just Holloway up the middle. He doesn't want to listen to our suggestions for his coaching staff. He seems to look at his coaches like he does his players. He isn't attracted to flashy stars.

[lamont]

Yeah, cause the 2013 #13, 2014 #8, 2015 #3, and 2016 #9 signing classes rated by Scout were just loaded with 3 stars and pumped up because of over signing***

The culture in place by Chiz forced him to "weed" some of that talent out of there- some did it to themselves. Doesnt matter what the classes are ranked if they lose plenty of them

[BrunswickDawg]

The culture in place by Chiz forced him to "weed" some of that talent out of there- some did it to themselves. Doesnt matter what the classes are ranked if they lose plenty of them
Those are ALL Gus Bus classes buddy - so any "weeding" that impacted '16 would have been Redshirt Seniors. Gus had plenty of talent signed to make up for any of that by '16.

[lamont]

the 2013 one he came in late on.

So he has had 3 really good classes- made the Sugar in spite of being young- and positioned himself to play Bama for the SEC title next year. Doing a good job if you ask me

[HSVDawg]

The culture in place by Chiz forced him to "weed" some of that talent out of there- some did it to themselves. Doesnt matter what the classes are ranked if they lose plenty of them

This here is the bottom line:

Mullen has averaged an even 8 wins per season over a 7 year period. At Mississippi State. And you have folks wanting to run him out of town on a rail.

Malzahn has averaged 7.7 wins per year over the last 3 years. AT AUBURN, easily a top 10-15 job with top 10-15 resources and recruiting base. And you have folks propping him up as some elite coach. He is a one year wonder who is still milking a series of fluke plays into retaining his job 4 years later. If any one of the kick 6, prayer at Jordan Hare, last minute drive against MSU, or other lucky bullshit they pulled in 2013 hadn't happened, he would have already been fired.

[Dawg61]

the 2013 one he came in late on.

So he has had 3 really good classes- made the Sugar in spite of being young- and positioned himself to play Bama for the SEC title next year. Doing a good job if you ask me

You are way higher on him than Auburn's fans are. He's on the hot seat. I don't think he should be but he is.

[HSVDawg]

the 2013 one he came in late on.

So he has had 3 really good classes- made the Sugar in spite of being young- and positioned himself to play Bama for the SEC title next year. Doing a good job if you ask me

Auburn is a school where you should average 9 wins a season with an average coach. Malzahn hasn't been able to do that even when you include the flukey 2013 season where he got an extra game in Atlanta to pad the total against a mediocre Mizzou team. The word here in Alabama is he has to win 9 AND beat at least one out of Georgia and Bama to keep his job in 2018. We'll see how it turns out.

[Dawg61]

He is a one year wonder who is still milking a series of fluke plays into retaining his job 4 years later. If any one of the kick 6, prayer at Jordan Hare, last minute drive against MSU, or other lucky bullshit they pulled in 2013 hadn't happened, he would have already been fired.

Wow so true when you think about it but Gus also has a National Championship ring at Auburn as the OC with Chizik. Two Natty appearances has to carry some weight for him.

[BrunswickDawg]

Wow so true when you think about it but Gus also has a National Championship ring at Auburn as the OC with Chizik. Two Natty appearances has to carry some weight for him.
But he has also proven he can't adapt when he doesn't have a freak QB (Cam) or lightening in a bottle QB (Marshall). They were bad early until he let Lashley take over play calling and the went run heavy.

[HSVDawg]

Wow so true when you think about it but Gus also has a National Championship ring at Auburn as the OC with Chizik. Two Natty appearances has to carry some weight for him.

I honestly think Cam bailed both him and Chizik out in 2010. He was one of the most dominite college players ever at the QB position. Their defense was extremely mediocre that year and it just so happened that Cam's skillset meshed perfectly with what Malzahn wanted to do. They didn't truly realize what they had with him until 3 or 4 games into the season either.

[Dawg61]

But he has also proven he can't adapt when he doesn't have a freak QB (Cam) or lightening in a bottle QB (Marshall). They were bad early until he let Lashley take over play calling and the went run heavy.


I honestly think Cam bailed both him and Chizik out in 2010. He was one of the most dominite college players ever at the QB position. Their defense was extremely mediocre that year and it just so happened that Cam's skillset meshed perfectly with what Malzahn wanted to do. They didn't truly realize what they had with him until 3 or 4 games into the season either.

Gus has proven to be a great offensive coach. His Tulsa teams were nasty on offense. His Arkansas team was nasty on offense, his Arkansas State team was nasty on offense and his Springdale team was nasty on offense. You can even go back two more high schools both nasty on offense. Basically his entire coaching career he has been nasty on offense except with Sean White. I'll take 25 years of nasty offense over 2 shitty years with Sean White as proof he is a great coach. Plus they whipped our ass this year with Pettway.

[HSVDawg]

Gus has proven to be a great offensive coach. His Tulsa teams were nasty on offense. His Arkansas team was nasty on offense, his Arkansas State team was nasty on offense and his Springdale team was nasty on offense. You can even go back two more high schools both nasty on offense. Basically his entire coaching career he has been nasty on offense except with Sean White. I'll take 25 years of nasty offense over 2 shitty years with Sean White as proof he is a great coach. Plus they whipped our ass this year with Pettway.

His Arkansas offense? Hahaha. That was Houston Nutt all the way. Malzahn was a glorified clipboard holder for Nutt with an OC title that was only given to him in order to land Mitch Mustain. He was as much the OC at Arkansas as Billy Gonzalez is at MSU. He has had two high level SEC offenses in 8 years as an OC / HC. Those were 2010 and 2013. He's also had several average to slightly above average offenses and a few terrible ones. I couldn't really care less what he did a CUSA or Sun Belt school or a high school. He is a decent offensive mind, but his window dressing is starting to be figured out by DC's throughout the league. He hasn't proven capable of adapting quite yet. And them whipping our ass with Pettway proved nothing. Everybody whipped our D's ass this year both running and throwing, including Samford.

[BrunswickDawg]

His Arkansas offense? Hahaha. That was Houston Nutt all the way. Malzahn was a glorified clipboard holder for Nutt with an OC title that was only given to him in order to land Mitch Mustain. He was as much the OC at Arkansas as Billy Gonzalez is at MSU. He has had two high level SEC offenses in 8 years as an OC / HC. Those were 2010 and 2013. He's also had several average to slightly above average offenses and a few terrible ones. I couldn't really care less what he did a CUSA or Sun Belt school or a high school. He is a decent offensive mind, but his window dressing is starting to be figured out by DC's throughout the league. He hasn't proven capable of adapting quite yet. And them whipping our ass with Pettway proved nothing. Everybody whipped our D's ass this year both running and throwing, including Samford.

Nutt ran a pounding running game with McFadden and Felix Jones and benched Mustain for Casey Dick. It was not a Gus Bus offense. It was all Nutt. Gus realized he had been used by Nutt to get Mustain and Williams and they all bolted after 1 year. And Gus was way out of his element this year with 2 pounding RBs - which is why Lashley started calling plays. Then amazingly, their offense comes together. Gus is a 1 trick pony.

[lamont]

But he has also proven he can't adapt when he doesn't have a freak QB (Cam) or lightening in a bottle QB (Marshall). They were bad early until he let Lashley take over play calling and the went run heavy.

Kinda like Dan Mullen huh?

[Bdawg]

What do you believe that we needed to do to keep Odom that has not been done?
Do you not think Dan Mullen understands that we need better players at all positions and is trying to get those players in a legal manner?

I stated this earlier I this thread I believe, and it's that no one seems to be talking about recruiting improprieties. Maybe there is a good reason we lose guys late in the process. $$$$ We are watching our neighbors go through it right now and you know they are not the only ones(wouldn't put anything past Patrino). Just another thing we may be battling(not saying we are squeaky clean either). Watch Last Chance U. Don't think kids aren't asking for it either.

[BrunswickDawg]

Kinda like Dan Mullen huh?

Touche

Although,there are some big differences with Dan and Gus. Gus may be able to recruit, but he obviously can't develop a QB. He has ruined many who were "sure fire, can't miss" prospects.
Also, how much of Gus's recruiting is Gus vs. Ole Yella Wood and Friends??

[Bdawg]

He needs to keep Grantham as our one coach that doesn't have to be an ace recruiter and everyone else he has on staff needs to be as passionate about recruiting as Terrell Buckley. That won't get us to an Alabama level but at least we won't hear our flips saying someone else was "giving them more love". If I read that one more time I may vomit.

Showing more love could have two meanings
1. Getting out worked(which I couldn't stand for)
2. $$$$$$$$

[lamont]

Touche

Although,there are some big differences with Dan and Gus. Gus may be able to recruit, but he obviously can't develop a QB. He has ruined many who were "sure fire, can't miss" prospects.
Also, how much of Gus's recruiting is Gus vs. Ole Yella Wood and Friends??

He certainly is not as good as Mullen as a QB coach- but what he did with Marshall was impressive. White was also coming along nicely until he got hurt. If their 5-star guy comes in and plays close to what he did at Baylor- and Franklin accepts a move to slot so he can get on the field- their offense is going to be hard to handle

[BrunswickDawg]

He certainly is not as good as Mullen as a QB coach- but what he did with Marshall was impressive. White was also coming along nicely until he got hurt. If their 5-star guy comes in and plays close to what he did at Baylor- and Franklin accepts a move to slot so he can get on the field- their offense is going to be hard to handle

Marshall had already showed he was a freak athlete who had the skills. Marshall is still 12th in career passing yards in GA HS history (was #5 when his career ended) and 3rd in passing TD's, and threw for over 3000 yards in his JUCO season. Gus didn't develop him or really improve him as a QB. It's not like he was an unknown like Fitz. Marshall is no different than Bo Wallace or Chad Kelly. If anything, Richt should be embarrassed that UGA had him at CB.

Gus is Freeze with more $ and talent on the roster.

[lamont]

Totally disagree

Marshall was a project that Gus turned into a good SEC QB. Hell, Marshall threw 20 interceptions in his 1 year as a juco QB. 20 picks in juco. He only threw 13 in 2 years against SEC competition under Gus.

Malzahn has finished ahead of Mullen offensively 5 of 7 years. Next year will be 6 of 8

[smootness]

Malzahn called good plays with Marshall, he didn't develop him into a QB. Now, it's certainly fair to ask what the difference is, and as long as it's effective, there's really not a difference. But if you're relying on just calling the right plays and not on actual QB development, you're going to be limited unless you have certain types of athletes.

[1bigdawg]

Malzahn has finished ahead of Mullen offensively 5 of 7 years. Next year will be 6 of 8

Malzahn has a much more talented and better offensive line. That makes everything easier.

[BrunswickDawg]

Totally disagree

Marshall was a project that Gus turned into a good SEC QB. Hell, Marshall threw 20 interceptions in his 1 year as a juco QB. 20 picks in juco. He only threw 13 in 2 years against SEC competition under Gus.

Malzahn has finished ahead of Mullen offensively 5 of 7 years. Next year will be 6 of 8

How is a guy who had thrown for 8500 yards in high school and 3100 yards in JUCO a project? I think the high INT was more about kid who had a couple years of rust showing out in a gunslinger style offense. Gus, like Freeze, does a great job of calling a passing game and choosing high percentage plays. But a lot of it is dink and dunk, bubble screens, etc. Malzahn, like Freeze, also recognized that Marshall (like Kelly and Dr. Bo for Hugh) fit his system to a T.

[lamont]

Malzahn has a much more talented and better offensive line. That makes everything easier.

That's Mullen's fault. He needs to recruit better- which is how this whole thread got started

[lamont]

How is a guy who had thrown for 8500 yards in high school and 3100 yards in JUCO a project? I think the high INT was more about kid who had a couple years of rust showing out in a gunslinger style offense. Gus, like Freeze, does a great job of calling a passing game and choosing high percentage plays. But a lot of it is dink and dunk, bubble screens, etc. Malzahn, like Freeze, also recognized that Marshall (like Kelly and Dr. Bo for Hugh) fit his system to a T.

Because nobody wanted him to be a D-1 QB coming out of HS. That should tell you something

[confucius say]

Gus's classes at auburn, including the current one, have averaged 8th in the country according to 247 composite. Dans have averaged 26th.
Since regular season is what matters according to RP, Gus's average is 8-4 and dans is 7-5. Only a one win difference despite recruiting 18 spots higher on average?!
Plus they are 2-2 head to head.