Bonds and Clemens denied again.

[parabrave]

Pretty soon these steroird users are going to be seen touring with Pete Rose. Congrats to Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Ivan Rodriguez for making it.

[msstate7]

Chipper and andruw up next... good luck to 2 of my all time favorites

[ShotgunDawg]

Pretty soon these steroird users are going to be seen touring with Pete Rose. Congrats to Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Ivan Rodriguez for making it.

Pretty absurd that Bagwell and Pudge were elected and not Bonds and Clemens. All 4 of them were big users.
At this point, it seems that Bonds and Clemens are being punished for being the best steroid era players and thus the face of the era while just as heavy users that weren't as good get a pass.

[Commercecomet24]

Chipper and andruw up next... good luck to 2 of my all time favorites

Hear,hear my good man! Chipper my all time favorite, he's first ballot for sure. Don't think Andruw gets in. Shame that his career petered out a little to early. He beat himself up running into fences and diving around and the injuries took their toll on his body. I know I'm old but Hank Aaron is my hr champ not bonds. Hank did it right and is a classy man!

[RougeDawg]

Bagwell and Pudge both used PED's. But they weren't..... wait for it..... targets of the so called steroid investigation. I'd say Bagwell took HGH before Bonds or anyone else. Just like with politics, the media makes or breaks a person unless you take to twitter.

[Todd4State]

Pretty absurd that Bagwell and Pudge were elected and not Bonds and Clemens. All 4 of them were big users.
At this point, it seems that Bonds and Clemens are being punished for being the best steroid era players and thus the face of the era while just as heavy users that weren't as good get a pass.

The media has ruined the Hall of Fame and why they shouldn't be allowed to be the sole group that picks the inductees. They have no clue how hard it is to hit a ball or locate pitches for strikes with or without PEDs. They also have no clue how many guys they have inducted that have done things that aren't always above board.

[Todd4State]

Bagwell and Pudge both used PED's. But they weren't..... wait for it..... targets of the so called steroid investigation. I'd say Bagwell took HGH before Bonds or anyone else. Just like with politics, the media makes or breaks a person unless you take to twitter.

Yep. The media has given in to what Jose Canseco wanted and they have no clue that they did it. Bunch of morons.

[Reason2succeed]

Baseball is a joke.

[shoeless joe]

Screw Clemens and bonds...but since pudge and bagwell get in then I think eventually bonds and Clemens get in. Clemens PED use is why he did a lot of what he did, and why the astros beat the braves in 05 nlds. Bonds was a HOF player before using but how do you let him stand up there as the "home run champ" when it's an illegitimate record.

The one that is really getting screwed with all of this is Fred mcgriff. Smoltz said it last nite...if your gonna reward the users then you definitely have to reward the guys with the numbers that didn't use.

[Dawg61]

Baseball is a joke.

No the hall of fame is a popularity contest joke. Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter ever.

[shoeless joe]

No the hall of fame is a popularity contest joke. Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter ever.


No he's not.

[BB30]

Screw Clemens and bonds...but since pudge and bagwell get in then I think eventually bonds and Clemens get in. Clemens PED use is why he did a lot of what he did, and why the astros beat the braves in 05 nlds. Bonds was a HOF player before using but how do you let him stand up there as the "home run champ" when it's an illegitimate record.

The one that is really getting screwed with all of this is Fred mcgriff. Smoltz said it last nite...if your gonna reward the users then you definitely have to reward the guys with the numbers that didn't use.

75% of the players during that era were on something. If it wasn't steroids or PED's it was AMPs ... Bottom line is Clemens and Bonds were and will always be two of the best to play the game. It is unfortunate, but I don't think they will ever get in. Dumb a*** shouldn't have gotten caught or shouldn't have used in the first place. Clemens was one of my favorite pitchers to watch growing up.

[Quaoarsking]

Baseball players have been using drugs to enhance their performance for decades. Before steroids, it was amphetamines and nobody holds a grudge against those players or keeps them out of the Hall.

Seems kinda silly to single out Bonds, Clemens, McGwire for something lots of other Hall of Farmers did.

[BB30]

Baseball players have been using drugs to enhance their performance for decades. Before steroids, it was amphetamines and nobody holds a grudge against those players or keeps them out of the Hall.

Seems kinda silly to single out Bonds, Clemens, McGwire for something lots of other Hall of Farmers did.

Exactly. Amps are still used heavily. In the minor leagues there is one drug test a season. Most of that stuff is wiped under the table. Amps will get you a 50 game suspension. The test is supposed to be random but, you generally know when it is coming up and that stuff is in and out of your system pretty quick. Now once you have failed a test they will test that player at random. Most organizations have a 3 strike policy on the other substances and you never hear about people failing for those as they are wiped under the rug unless they fail 3 times which usually by the second you are cut unless you are a high $$/ big time prospect. They basically tell you that it is better if you fail for heroin than Amps because it can be handled internally and it doesn't hurt the organization's image.

[Dawg61]

No he's not.

Yes he is. Don't debate my opinion with me you'll lose every time.

[Jarius]

I wish they would let them all use PED's. Would be much more exciting. The most fun I ever had watching baseball was during the steroid era.

[ATTILLA THE DOG]

FREE PETE ROSE

[shoeless joe]

Yes he is. Don't debate my opinion with me you'll lose every time.


Please list the reason he is the greatest hitter ever.

He was a great hitter no doubt...but his accomplishment that would put him at the top were ALL enhanced by steroid use. Therefore I cannot put him ahead of many guys that didn't use. Again, the bad part is he would already have been in on the first ballot if he never used. His inflated numbers wouldn't be as gawdy but he'd be thought of as a great all around player.

[BB30]

I wish they would let them all use PED's. Would be much more exciting. The most fun I ever had watching baseball was during the steroid era.

Eh eventually a pitcher was going to get killed on the mound. It still could happen but there were balls exiting bats at 130+ MPH you don't see the exit velocities quite as high now. Most of the guys who were using were doing it to sustain their career and last longer. It did improve performance but it really helped them play longer more than anything. It may have helped Bonds hit for power but the dude could straight up rake regardless, It didn't improve his eyes and hands. Same with pitchers, it doesn't make you throw all that much harder but it allows you to carry your same velocity later into the ball game and recover quicker.

[Jarius]

Eh eventually a pitcher was going to get killed on the mound. It still could happen but there were balls exiting bats at 130+ MPH you don't see the exit velocities quite as high now. Most of the guys who were using were doing it to sustain their career and last longer. It did improve performance but it really helped them play longer more than anything. It may have helped Bonds hit for power but the dude could straight up rake regardless, It didn't improve his eyes and hands. Same with pitchers, it doesn't make you throw all that much harder but it allows you to carry your same velocity later into the ball game and recover quicker.

Maybe. I just can't hardly watch baseball any more unless it's a state game. Sports are entertainment and that era was much more entertaining.

[BB30]

Please list the reason he is the greatest hitter ever.

He was a great hitter no doubt...but his accomplishment that would put him at the top were ALL enhanced by steroid use. Therefore I cannot put him ahead of many guys that didn't use. Again, the bad part is he would already have been in on the first ballot if he never used. His inflated numbers wouldn't be as gawdy but he'd be thought of as a great all around player.

List your guys that didn't use that you would put ahead of him. I also don't think Bonds was the greatest ever but the argument can be made that he was and would have definitely been up there had he not taken steroids. He hit at a career clip of .298 with over 500 stolen bags and almost 2000 RBIs.

[Dawg61]

Please list the reason he is the greatest hitter ever.

He was a great hitter no doubt...but his accomplishment that would put him at the top were ALL enhanced by steroid use. Therefore I cannot put him ahead of many guys that didn't use. Again, the bad part is he would already have been in on the first ballot if he never used. His inflated numbers wouldn't be as gawdy but he'd be thought of as a great all around player.

Put your hate aside for 11 minutes and just watch. Barry Bonds is the GOAT!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kasaxBLWgo

[shoeless joe]

List your guys that didn't use that you would put ahead of him. I also don't think Bonds was the greatest ever but the argument can be made that he was and would have definitely been up there had he not taken steroids. He hit at a career clip of .298 with over 500 stolen bags and almost 2000 RBIs.


What were his power and RBI avgs before using? Those numbers don't add up to "greatest hitter of all time". And stolen bags don't make you a good hitter.

Ted Williams is the greatest of all time. He hit for avg and power. 521career HR with some of his peak years spent in military service of WWII and Korea. Great hitter, great American

DiMaggio, Aaron, Ruth,are all up there. Rose, mantle, mays are next tier along with some old old school guys like Cobb.

Bonds had great numbers in the 90s but didn't start putting up all time greatest numbers until 2000. The same time his body began changing. Age 35-39 seasons he averaged 51 HR and 108 RBI. THAT is 100% due to steroids. Like was stated earlier, longevity and sustained numbers later into career are steroid hallmarks.

Williams had a great power year at age 38 w/38 HR but that was a bit of an outlier later in his career. Also career batting avg is not even close. Williams hit below .300 one time and that was at age 40. Plus, if in the 3 years he missed for WWII you add in his average HR totals from the previous and post 4 years he would have 100 more HR.

There may be some debate over the top 5 or 10 but really is none for the greatest hitter of all time.

[shoeless joe]

Put your hate aside for 11 minutes and just watch. Barry Bonds is the GOAT!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kasaxBLWgo

No hate. I was a huge bonds guy in the 90s. Loved his skill set. He was a great hitter. Maybe even one of the best but not THE best.

[Dawg61]

Problem with you discrediting every one of Bonds great years is that it was never proven that he took steroids leaving the burden of proof in baseball's hands not in Bonds hands. Him passing every piss test was his burden of proof that he passed every time so now if you want to kill a man you gotta prove he did it. Just like a murder trial.

Also let's say he did take steroids for arguments sake. You act like he was the only one. His numbers dwarf the rest of the steroid era players numbers. You think none of the pitchers throwing him the ball took steroids? He doesn't have an edge when everyone else has the same edge as him. (for the record I do think Bonds took steroids but that doesn't matter when it hasn't been proven he did just like it doesn't matter I think OJ killed Nicole. Gotta prove it. It's that whole "Innocent till proven guilty" thing that our entire legal system is based off of.

[shoeless joe]

Problem with you discrediting every one of Bonds great years is that it was never proven that he took steroids leaving the burden of proof in baseball's hands not in Bonds hands. Him passing every piss test was his burden of proof that he passed every time so now if you want to kill a man you gotta prove he did it. Just like a murder trial.

Also let's say he did take steroids for arguments sake. You act like he was the only one. His numbers dwarf the rest of the steroid era players numbers. You think none of the pitchers throwing him the ball took steroids? He doesn't have an edge when everyone else has the same edge as him. (for the record I do think Bonds took steroids but that doesn't matter when it hasn't been proven he did just like it doesn't matter I think OJ killed Nicole. Gotta prove it. It's that whole "Innocent till proven guilty" thing that our entire legal system is based off of.

Who doesn't think bonds used? Everybody knows he used. The proof is his body.

His numbers don't dwarf everybody else! Take a look at Sosa and McGwire during their peak using years. Check out palmeiro and A Rod. There are others but that off the top of my head.

Pitchers did use...but it didn't help them as much on the mound. It helped them get on the mound and stay on the mound. (Such as Clemens in 05 NLDS.) I'm not picking bonds out of everybody else, I'm including him in with all users. They cheated...end of story.

He was great and a first ballot guy before using, and I think he'll end up there. But his single season and career HR records are bogus. Everybody knows that. And id be willing to bet the fact that he holds those records plays into your thinking of him as the greatest.

[BB30]

What were his power and RBI avgs before using? Those numbers don't add up to "greatest hitter of all time". And stolen bags don't make you a good hitter.

Ted Williams is the greatest of all time. He hit for avg and power. 521career HR with some of his peak years spent in military service of WWII and Korea. Great hitter, great American

DiMaggio, Aaron, Ruth,are all up there. Rose, mantle, mays are next tier along with some old old school guys like Cobb.

Bonds had great numbers in the 90s but didn't start putting up all time greatest numbers until 2000. The same time his body began changing. Age 35-39 seasons he averaged 51 HR and 108 RBI. THAT is 100% due to steroids. Like was stated earlier, longevity and sustained numbers later into career are steroid hallmarks.

Williams had a great power year at age 38 w/38 HR but that was a bit of an outlier later in his career. Also career batting avg is not even close. Williams hit below .300 one time and that was at age 40. Plus, if in the 3 years he missed for WWII you add in his average HR totals from the previous and post 4 years he would have 100 more HR.

There may be some debate over the top 5 or 10 but really is none for the greatest hitter of all time.

And that is why I said I don't think he is the greatest of all time just that he could be in the conversation. I also don't think you can compare hitters from different generations straight up. In Bond's era he is arguably the best. From 90-00 he had over 100 RBIs just about every season and I would consider SB a somewhat important stat when comparing hitters. To have SB you have to get on base and getting on base is a part of hitting no matter how you reached base. Knowing the K zone and having a high ob % is just as important if not more important than batting average. He also averaged around 100 runs scored from 86-2000 which is pretty dang impressive.

[Dawg61]

The proof is his body.

What? So we just gonna deem people steroid users cause of their bodies now? Ok. Ricky Henderson, Ken Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas, Randy Johnson are all now steroid users. The proof is their bodies.

[shoeless joe]

What? So we just gonna deem people steroid users cause of their bodies now? Ok. Ricky Henderson, Ken Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas, Randy Johnson are all now steroid users. The proof is their bodies.

If you can't see a gigantic marked difference in bonds body from 98 to 2000 then I can't help you and you're reasoning on his career makes more since to me now. Hell his hat sized increased drastically in his mid 30s!!!

All players mature and fill out in their 20s but the Guys you mentioned never had as drastic a body change late in their career like bonds.

You're missing the point anyway. You said you believe he used...do you believe he would have been the single season and all time HR leader without using?

[shoeless joe]

And that is why I said I don't think he is the greatest of all time just that he could be in the conversation. I also don't think you can compare hitters from different generations straight up. In Bond's era he is arguably the best. From 90-00 he had over 100 RBIs just about every season and I would consider SB a somewhat important stat when comparing hitters. To have SB you have to get on base and getting on base is a part of hitting no matter how you reached base. Knowing the K zone and having a high ob % is just as important if not more important than batting average. He also averaged around 100 runs scored from 86-2000 which is pretty dang impressive.


Based on 90-98 bonds is easy first ballot HOF.

[Dawg61]

do you believe he would have been the single season and all time HR leader without using?

Yes. He had his swing grooved for his damage area. Anything pitched in that area was destroyed every time. He was unpitchable for 5 years straight. Are his homeruns still homeruns without steroids? Yes.

[shoeless joe]

Yes. He had his swing grooved for his damage area. Anything pitched in that area was destroyed every time. He was unpitchable for 5 years straight. Are his homeruns still homeruns without steroids? Yes.


Good Lord...never mind. I'm out.

Increased HR production league wide during that era but bonds woulda hit just as many without them...good grief

[Dawg61]

Increased HR production league wide during that era but bonds woulda hit just as many without them...good grief

He woulda hit MORE homeruns without steroids because he wouldn't of gotten blackballed by MLB costing him his last 5 years of production. 40 year old Bonds with no steroids gets traded to the Yankees and still smashes 40 homeruns with that tiny right porch.

[fader2103]

I admit one of the hardest things to do in sports is to hit a baseball. Barry Bonds definitely is not the best hitter ever.

Pete Rose, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Roger Hornsby... The list could go along way before Barry is mentioned. Most Homeruns don't make you the best hitter

[BB30]

He woulda hit MORE homeruns without steroids because he wouldn't of gotten blackballed by MLB costing him his last 5 years of production. 40 year old Bonds with no steroids gets traded to the Yankees and still smashes 40 homeruns with that tiny right porch.

You have lost your mind if you don't think steroids led to a chunk of those HRs. Ill even take in to account for sake of argument.. lets say they did not effect his power at all.. they most certainly prolonged his career much further than missing out on 5 years of production. He would have retired quite a bit earlier. And saying Ken Griffey Jr did steroids is laughable he didn't gain 40 pounds of muscle seemingly overnight. No way bonds hits 70 homers in a season without roids. What he did was impressive no doubt. But he would not have done it without juicing. There are guys now that are better true straight up hitters than Bonds and arent coming close to 70+ HR. IMO what made Bonds special was his ability to get on base, steal bags, and hit for a decent average. He was a complete player with a good mix of power and speed. Had he not done roids he would have already been in the HOF and not because of his power at the end of his career.

[BB30]

I admit one of the hardest things to do in sports is to hit a baseball. Barry Bonds definitely is not the best hitter ever.

Pete Rose, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Roger Hornsby... The list could go along way before Barry is mentioned. Most Homeruns don't make you the best hitter

Can't compare generations. During Bond's playing days he was arguably the best. If you compile BA, OBP, EBH, RBIs, SB, and runs scored he ranks up there pretty high.

[smootness]

He woulda hit MORE homeruns without steroids because he wouldn't of gotten blackballed by MLB costing him his last 5 years of production. 40 year old Bonds with no steroids gets traded to the Yankees and still smashes 40 homeruns with that tiny right porch.

Holy crap.

40-year-old Bonds with no steroids is likely out of the game after hitting 15 as a 38-year-old.

[Dawg61]

Since we will just keep running in circles here let me ask y'all something. In your opinion do you think MLB and Bud Selig encouraged steroid use to bring fans back with homeruns right after the strike season? Did they turn their back to it when Sosa and McGwire were going after Maris's record? Don't punish Bonds for being the best during the timeframe he was forced to play in. It's not his fault his direct competition was doing it before him. His livelihood and wallet were directly influenced by home many homeruns he could hit. What kinda choice is it for Bonds when McGwire, Canseco, Sosa etc are getting monster contracts because they are hitting lots of homeruns? Don't take it and maybe you don't get an extra $200 million. You're talking about fierce competitors here. When their direct competition is winning while taking steroids they can either keep up or potentially be out a job in MLB. Everyone is every sport was taking steroids during the 90's. Picking and choosing who gets to be in the HOF is a ****ing joke. Put everyone of them in the HOF and put a giant message about steroids and the steroid era all around the timeframe. This picking and choosing on who was clean and who wasn't is total bullshit. It can't be fixed it can't be made right. Put everyone of them into the HOF. It was baseball's fault for encouraging it anyways.

[Dawg61]

Holy crap.

40-year-old Bonds with no steroids is likely out of the game after hitting 15 as a 38-year-old.

Bonds would hit 30 homeruns in a Yankees uniform today with how grooved his swing was/is. Don't argue with me about my opinion on Bonds. You will never change it.

[smootness]

Bonds would hit 30 homeruns in a Yankees uniform today with how grooved his swing was/is. Don't argue with me about my opinion on Bonds. You will never change it.

Griffey had a beautiful swing, too. Chipper as well. Your body at some point breaks down. Bonds' didn't. Hmmmm....wonder why that could be....

[fader2103]

Can't compare generations. During Bond's playing days he was arguably the best. If you compile BA, OBP, EBH, RBIs, SB, and runs scored he ranks up there pretty high.

The guy I was responding to said he was best ever. So yes you have to compare generations. If he said best in this generation he would have an argument, but he didn't say that.

[Dawg61]

The guy I was responding to said he was best ever. So yes you have to compare generations. If he said best in this generation he would have an argument, but he didn't say that.

Wait...you saying dudes today wouldn't smash the **** outta pitching in 1950? You think Bonds 73 homeruns are silly try putting him up against 1950's fastballs. He'd hit 146 homeruns in one season. Comparing generations is retarded in any sport. You can't do it. Wilt Chamberlin would never score 100 and get 50 boards if he's playing vs current NBA players. Ben Hogan doesn't win nearly as many tournaments if he's playing in current PGA golf. Bonds is the best ever in this current generation which makes him the best ever in any generation.

[smootness]

Wait...you saying dudes today wouldn't smash the **** outta pitching in 1950? You think Bonds 73 homeruns are silly try putting him up against 1950's fastballs. He'd hit 146 homeruns in one season. Comparing generations is retarded in any sport. You can't do it. Wilt Chamberlin would never score 100 and get 50 boards if he's playing vs current NBA players. Ben Hogan doesn't win nearly as many tournaments if he's playing in current PGA golf. Bonds is the best ever in this current generation which makes him the best ever in any generation.

This argument is always asinine. Of course Ted Williams, given 1950s development, equipment, and technology, would not hit current pitching well if you just picked him up and placed him in the game today. Would Ted Williams be a monster if he grew up and developed in the current day? Of course he would. Just like Bonds, having grown up in the 1950s, wouldn't be 2001 Barry Bonds. All you can do is compare players against their own generation, yes. But it's the best compared to his own era that should be considered the best, not just the best current player.

[RougeDawg]

Hear,hear my good man! Chipper my all time favorite, he's first ballot for sure. Don't think Andruw gets in. Shame that his career petered out a little to early. He beat himself up running into fences and diving around and the injuries took their toll on his body. I know I'm old but Hank Aaron is my hr champ not bonds. Hank did it right and is a classy man!

Chipper along with 75% of those braves teams were steroid users. And before you say "no he didn't" a player on that team gave me a list of the guys using during that time and team. Chipper just never bulked up like the rest. Andruw did not use if that makes you feel any better.

[Dawg61]

Dude gives you a list. Must be true!!

Here Rouge I am going to give you a list of women I have ****ed. It is true cause I have given you a list.

1. Kate Upton
2. Jennifer Lopez
3. Cindy Crawford
4. Every Victoria Secret model ever
5. Marilyn Monroe (not proud of it)
6. Princess Diana (before the crash, RIP)
7. Jessica Rabbit
8. Selma Hayek
9. Michelle Obama (don't judge)
10. The Olsen twins (they were legal you pervs)

[fader2103]

Like Smootness said, you can't just say Bonds would hammer 1930's-1950's pitching. Would he hammer them if he didn't always workout and bulk up? Smootness also said what if Ted Williams played in today's game?

Would Babe Ruth hit 1000 home runs, if he worked out and was not a drunk almost every time he showed up to the ballpark?

I get your argument about generational gaps in baseball, but you can't say Bonds is the greatest all time, when you have players who didn't have today's technologies with baseball still hitting just as good numbers.

[Bubb Rubb]

Please list the reason he is the greatest hitter ever.

He was a great hitter no doubt...but his accomplishment that would put him at the top were ALL enhanced by steroid use. Therefore I cannot put him ahead of many guys that didn't use. Again, the bad part is he would already have been in on the first ballot if he never used. His inflated numbers wouldn't be as gawdy but he'd be thought of as a great all around player.

How do you know who didn't use? How do you know who else was using when Bonds was? That's why these are futile debates. Players have taken performance enhancers back to the golden era. Dimaggio talked about "vitamin shots" that everyone of that era were taking...that turned out to be methamphetamine. Players in the 60s and 70s took amphetamines like they were tic tacs. Players in the 80s did a lot of cocaine. Tim Raines, a new hall of famer, once admitted that he had a vial of coke break in his back pocket during a game.

When sports writers single out players in the steroids era, they are being very hypocritical. I'm not making excuses for the players, but you have to apply these arguments consistently. Players have been looking for an edge all the way back to the turn of the century when they soaked their hands in horse piss to prevent blisters.

You can't say Bonds was so much better because of steroids, because he was getting hits off pitchers who may also have been juicing. If his performance was elevated, so was the performance of many players around him. You can't just make a blanket statement that he was so much better because of it. Ken Caminiti estimated that 80% or more of the league was juicing at one point.

[shoeless joe]

Chipper along with 75% of those braves teams were steroid users. And before you say "no he didn't" a player on that team gave me a list of the guys using during that time and team. Chipper just never bulked up like the rest. Andruw did not use if that makes you feel any better.


If you know it then a lot of folks know it...and what you're saying doesn't jive.

You also must know more than glavine and smoltz because they both have talked about how it wasn't rampant on those teams. Keep in mind that chipper was an ass hole and a lot of folks didn't like him on those teams so I'm not surprised someone close or on the team would throw that out there. I'm sure he had some supplements he took but I'm finding it hard to believe he used based on all available evidence.

[Dawg61]

How do you know who didn't use? How do you know who else was using when Bonds was? That's why these are futile debates. Players have taken performance enhancers back to the golden era. Dimaggio talked about "vitamin shots" that everyone of that era were taking...that turned out to be methamphetamine. Players in the 60s and 70s took amphetamines like they were tic tacs. Players in the 80s did a lot of cocaine. Tim Raines, a new hall of famer, once admitted that he had a vial of coke break in his back pocket during a game.

When sports writers single out players in the steroids era, they are being very hypocritical. I'm not making excuses for the players, but you have to apply these arguments consistently. Players have been looking for an edge all the way back to the turn of the century when they soaked their hands in horse piss to prevent blisters.

You can't say Bonds was so much better because of steroids, because he was getting hits off pitchers who may also have been juicing. If his performance was elevated, so was the performance of many players around him. You can't just make a blanket statement that he was so much better because of it. Ken Caminiti estimated that 80% or more of the league was juicing at one point.

This!! All of it!!

http://replygif.net/i/90.gif

[smootness]

How do you know who didn't use? How do you know who else was using when Bonds was? That's why these are futile debates. Players have taken performance enhancers back to the golden era. Dimaggio talked about "vitamin shots" that everyone of that era were taking...that turned out to be methamphetamine. Players in the 60s and 70s took amphetamines like they were tic tacs. Players in the 80s did a lot of cocaine. Tim Raines, a new hall of famer, once admitted that he had a vial of coke break in his back pocket during a game.

When sports writers single out players in the steroids era, they are being very hypocritical. I'm not making excuses for the players, but you have to apply these arguments consistently. Players have been looking for an edge all the way back to the turn of the century when they soaked their hands in horse piss to prevent blisters.

You can't say Bonds was so much better because of steroids, because he was getting hits off pitchers who may also have been juicing. If his performance was elevated, so was the performance of many players around him. You can't just make a blanket statement that he was so much better because of it. Ken Caminiti estimated that 80% or more of the league was juicing at one point.

I don't. But I know Bonds did. That removes him from the debate. Sorry.

[Bubb Rubb]

I don't. But I know Bonds did. That removes him from the debate. Sorry.

OK, so you eliminate all of them, or you eliminate non of them. You just can't selectively enforce it. We "know" of a lot of people who did it. We're all fairly certain that Bagwell and Piazza did it (now HOF'ers). There are guys, like our own Palmiero, who should be in the HOF because he is on the very exclusive 3000 hit/500 homerun club. When did they start using? When did they stop. How many times? Who did they face who was using? It's just wrong to selectively penalize a few when so many of the era were doing it. It's also reasonable to assume that some of our "poster boys" of that era, who we would never suspect would juice, probably did it, too.

I'm not excusing Bonds, and I hated the guy as a player. But I'm also not going to deny his talent - he's easily in the discussion of one of the best players of all time, regardless of steroid use.

[Dawg61]

It's also reasonable to assume that some of our "poster boys" of that era, who we would never suspect would juice, probably did it, too.


Cal Ripken

[smootness]

OK, so you eliminate all of them, or you eliminate non of them. You just can't selectively enforce it. We "know" of a lot of people who did it. We're all fairly certain that Bagwell and Piazza did it (now HOF'ers). There are guys, like our own Palmiero, who should be in the HOF because he is on the very exclusive 3000 hit/500 homerun club. When did they start using? When did they stop. How many times? Who did they face who was using? It's just wrong to selectively penalize a few when so many of the era were doing it. It's also reasonable to assume that some of our "poster boys" of that era, who we would never suspect would juice, probably did it, too.

I'm not excusing Bonds, and I hated the guy as a player. But I'm also not going to deny his talent - he's easily in the discussion of one of the best players of all time, regardless of steroid use.

Yes, I can. I remove those who I strongly believe cheated. Bonds is one of them.

Bonds was a truly great player before HGH, no question. And his results once he did are the best ever, no question. But I couldn't care less what he did after he started taking HGH, I don't count it.

[Thrill1]

Pretty soon these steroird users are going to be seen touring with Pete Rose. Congrats to Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Ivan Rodriguez for making it.

Hate to tell you bud, but Bonds and Clemens actually GAINED votes from last year. Specifically for Bonds his ballot pct has risen from 37% in 2015 to 54% this year. Clemens on a similar path. And many writers point to the fact that with Selig being inducted by the Veterans committee, this will open the door for voters otherwise on the fence about Bonds/Clemens and others. May take 2-3 more years but Barry will get in.

And to chime in on the above discussion, I'm fine with Ted Williams being the best all-time hitter, but Bonds is certainly in the discussion of best all-time player. Let's remember he won 3 of his 7 (!) MVPs before Balco was mentioned. By comparison, Jeff Bagwell won 1.

[Bubb Rubb]

Yes, I can. I remove those who I strongly believe cheated. Bonds is one of them.

Bonds was a truly great player before HGH, no question. And his results once he did are the best ever, no question. But I couldn't care less what he did after he started taking HGH, I don't count it.

My bad. When I said "you" can't enforce it...it was more a general "baseball can't selectively enforce it." We all have our own opinions and biases. I just have a problem with baseball writers, most of whom never put on a set of leggings in their lives, selectively choosing who is worthy and not worthy for the hall based on those biases. At the end of the day, you deserve it or you don't. And if cheating got you there, well, other cheaters have been rewarded, so where do you draw the line? It's hard to selectively enforce those things.

[smootness]

My bad. When I said "you" can't enforce it...it was more a general "baseball can't selectively enforce it." We all have our own opinions and biases. I just have a problem with baseball writers, most of whom never put on a set of leggings in their lives, selectively choosing who is worthy and not worthy for the hall based on those biases. At the end of the day, you deserve it or you don't. And if cheating got you there, well, other cheaters have been rewarded, so where do you draw the line? It's hard to selectively enforce those things.

Their entire job in voting is to determine who is worthy and not worthy of the HOF. They can choose whatever criteria they want.

Those who were clearly cheaters should be out. No, you won't catch everyone. That's life. We don't close down all our prisons because we'll never catch them all.

[Dawg61]

Their entire job in voting is to determine who is worthy and not worthy of the HOF. They can choose whatever criteria they want.

Those who were clearly cheaters should be out. No, you won't catch everyone. That's life. We don't close down all our prisons because we'll never catch them all.

As long as they keep out the guys you don't like anyways what's it matter right? What happens if they keep out your favorite player next though? You gonna find fault with the system then? Just outta curiosity who is your favorite player that is in the HOF? Would you be pissed if they refused to vote him in cause of allegedly taking steroids during a time when everyone was taking steroids? Nobody gives a shit till the shit is on your doorstep.

[BB30]

If you know it then a lot of folks know it...and what you're saying doesn't jive.

You also must know more than glavine and smoltz because they both have talked about how it wasn't rampant on those teams. Keep in mind that chipper was an ass hole and a lot of folks didn't like him on those teams so I'm not surprised someone close or on the team would throw that out there. I'm sure he had some supplements he took but I'm finding it hard to believe he used based on all available evidence.

Since Glavine and Smoltz would just come out and throw teammates under the bus and all.... That stuff was on every team during that time period. Not saying Chipper used or didn't but the fact that Glavine and Smoltz said it wasn't rampant doesn't really mean anything.

[BB30]

As long as they keep out the guys you don't like anyways what's it matter right? What happens if they keep out your favorite player next though? You gonna find fault with the system then? Just outta curiosity who is your favorite player that is in the HOF? Would you be pissed if they refused to vote him in cause of allegedly taking steroids during a time when everyone was taking steroids? Nobody gives a shit till the shit is on your doorstep.

Wow you are genuinely upset. He will probably get in at some point and was a good player. That being said roids definitely benefited him you can argue all you want that it didn't but you don't go from 30 HRs to 77 just because your swing gets in a "groove" which btw doesn't make any sense. Bonds hit balls out that were pitched all over the zone in and out of it. He hit those same balls 10 years earlier they just weren't leaving the yard.

[Dawg61]

Wow you are genuinely upset. He will probably get in at some point and was a good player. That being said roids definitely benefited him you can argue all you want that it didn't but you don't go from 30 HRs to 77 just because your swing gets in a "groove" which btw doesn't make any sense. Bonds hit balls out that were pitched all over the zone in and out of it. He hit those same balls 10 years earlier they just weren't leaving the yard.

Barry Bonds is my favorite baseball player ever. He is nowhere close to being my favorite baseball person ever. He is a tremendous asshole and supremely arrogant. I think baseball and baseball writers have let their personal feelings towards Bonds the person justify their unwillingness to vote Bonds the player into the HOF. That is disgusting to me. Especially when you factor in that the man has never been proven to have taken steroids meaning we no longer live in an innocent till PROVEN guilty America now. It's just a popularity contest at this point. Anyone telling you different is full of shit.

[smootness]

As long as they keep out the guys you don't like anyways what's it matter right? What happens if they keep out your favorite player next though? You gonna find fault with the system then? Just outta curiosity who is your favorite player that is in the HOF? Would you be pissed if they refused to vote him in cause of allegedly taking steroids during a time when everyone was taking steroids? Nobody gives a shit till the shit is on your doorstep.

It has nothing to do with whether I like the player or not. I actually rooted Bonds on during his 73 year and wanted him to beat the Angels. I also realize his numbers were fabricated and he shouldn't be in the HOF. I rooted in Sosa in 98 as well but believe he's where he should be, not in the HOF.

My favorite player in the Hall is probably Maddux. If it came out he did steroids, it would be the weirdest thing ever, and he shouldn't be in. LOVED Griffey. If he used, he doesn't get in. Same with Andruw.

[smootness]

Barry Bonds is my favorite baseball player ever. He is nowhere close to being my favorite baseball person ever. He is a tremendous asshole and supremely arrogant. I think baseball and baseball writers have let their personal feelings towards Bonds the person justify their unwillingness to vote Bonds the player into the HOF. That is disgusting to me. Especially when you factor in that the man has never been proven to have taken steroids meaning we no longer live in an innocent till PROVEN guilty America now. It's just a popularity contest at this point. Anyone telling you different is full of shit.

Then you are the one biased.

[shoeless joe]

Since Glavine and Smoltz would just come out and throw teammates under the bus and all.... That stuff was on every team during that time period. Not saying Chipper used or didn't but the fact that Glavine and Smoltz said it wasn't rampant doesn't really mean anything.

You're right. But unsolicited comments from those guys do carry more weight than hearsay and second hand info. I don't think there is a more insightful or thoughtful guy around, in regards to baseball, than john smoltz. I have tons of respect for the man.

I personally don't believe 75% of the game was using. I could be wrong. I've always thought it to be closer to 50% based on the reports and the supposed anonymous testing that ended up coming to light.

[Dawg61]

It has nothing to do with whether I like the player or not. I actually rooted Bonds on during his 73 year and wanted him to beat the Angels. I also realize his numbers were fabricated and he shouldn't be in the HOF. I rooted in Sosa in 98 as well but believe he's where he should be, not in the HOF.

My favorite player in the Hall is probably Maddux. If it came out he did steroids, it would be the weirdest thing ever, and he shouldn't be in. LOVED Griffey. If he used, he doesn't get in. Same with Andruw.

Bonds beat a Federal case against him. Millions of dollars were spent by our government to finally stick it to Bonds for supposedly using steroids and the federal government LOST.

[smootness]

Bonds beat a Federal case against him. Millions of dollars were spent by our government to finally stick it to Bonds for supposedly using steroids and the federal government LOST.

Yes. And yet he clearly took HGH. You know this.

[Dawg61]

Yes. And yet he clearly took HGH. You know this.

And OJ clearly murdered Nicole

[TUSK]

I know less than dick about baseball....

But I do know this:

Barry Bonds' head got really, really big.... really, really fast....

[shoeless joe]

And OJ clearly murdered Nicole

So we should reward him for beating the rap?

I know a lot of 15 year olds that think just like you

[fader2103]

Barry Bonds is my favorite baseball player ever. He is nowhere close to being my favorite baseball person ever.

Kinda confused on this quote

[Dawg61]

So we should reward him for beating the rap?

What's the point in having piss tests then?

[Dawg61]

Kinda confused on this quote

It's simple. He is my favorite baseball player to watch ever and I also think he's an arrogant asshole. Athletes while being an athlete don't have to be exemplary citizens off the field for them to still be very entertaining to watch. Connor McGregor is a perfect example. That guy is a total scumbag but he is also millions of UFC fans favorite athlete. He is not mine but I do find him highly entertaining.

[smootness]

And OJ clearly murdered Nicole

Correct.

[TUSK]

And OJ clearly murdered Nicole

Blacklash.... before it was "cool"...

[RougeDawg]

Dude gives you a list. Must be true!!

Here Rouge I am going to give you a list of women I have ****ed. It is true cause I have given you a list.

1. Kate Upton
2. Jennifer Lopezo
3. Cindy Crawford
4. Every Victoria Secret model ever
5. Marilyn Monroe (not proud of it)
6. Princess Diana (before the crash, RIP)
7. Jessica Rabbit
8. Selma Hayek
9. Michelle Obama (don't judge)
10. The Olsen twins (they were legal you pervs)

Dude stop proving to the board what they already know about you.

75% or more of the entire league was using something illegal during that time frame. I even personally know another player of that era that played for Cleveland who told me about players and actually used himself. Even got caught once and had to sit out games. It was part of the era But let's not listen to the guys who were actually in the locker rooms.

You probably haven't even been in the same city at the same time, as those women you listed.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths of which people will go to attempt to discredit something that doesn't fit their mindset or narrative. Even when they have no substantive evidence, they make such ridiculous and far fetched claims as a rebuttal, such as in this case, to throw out a substantiated and factually based statement that I made. It's actually a tactic of Saul Alinsky for those whom care to look it up. Respond to something you don't like with something unrealistic and then the public discredits both. Might work with be general public but you can't fool someone who's studied the other teams playbook as much as the other team.

The liberal left uses this tactic all the time when they are exposed. Bearshart fans used this tactic as well.

And a footnote. Glavins and Maddux were clean. Smoltz, not so much.

[Dawg61]

Dude stop proving to the board what they already know about you. what that I have a huge cock and women love it

75% or more of the entire league was using something illegal during that time frame. oh here goes Rouge with a totally bullshit statistic that he made up outta thin air and will now try to act like it is factI even personally know another player of that era that played for Cleveland who told me about players and actually used himself. this is total bullshit, you lie quite a bit and are always quick to tell stories of who you know, you must be the most popular person in LouisianaEven got caught once and had to sit out games. It was part of the era But let's not listen to the guys who were actually in the locker rooms. even if you actually did know some scrub that played for the Cleveland Indians (which you don't because you lie constantly) and he actually did tell you he took steroids (which he didn't) it would still only be one scrub telling you a story

You probably haven't even been in the same city at the same time, as those women you listed. I put a cartoon character and a woman that has been dead for over 54 years on it, it was clearly a joke list just like your stories you always tell Mr. Ted Williams. How about you tell us the story of when you taught Wade Boggs how to hit a baseball and drink beer next

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths of which people will go to attempt to discredit something that doesn't fit their mindset or narrative. Even when they have no substantive evidence, they make such ridiculous and far fetched claims as a rebuttal, such as in this case, to throw out a substantiated and factually based statement that I made you telling us you once knew a scrub that played for Cleveland who volunteered information to you that he took steroids is now considered "substantiated and factually" what a ****ing joke Rouge. It's actually a tactic of Saul Alinsky for those whom care to look it up. Respond to something you don't like with something unrealistic and then the public discredits both. Might work with be general public but you can't fool someone who's studied the other teams playbook as much as the other team. holy shit come back to earth

The liberal left uses this tactic all the time when they are exposed.Trump is a dickbag Bearshart fans used this tactic as well.

And a footnote. Glavins and Maddux were clean. Smoltz, not so much.oh cause you're the most popular person in Georgia now too and all the Braves came to tell you their deepest darkest secrets

You are a clown. Can't wait for baseball season for you to teach us clown hitting techniques again.

[shoeless joe]

You are a clown. Can't wait for baseball season for you to teach us clown hitting techniques again.

I laughed

[BB30]

You're right. But unsolicited comments from those guys do carry more weight than hearsay and second hand info. I don't think there is a more insightful or thoughtful guy around, in regards to baseball, than john smoltz. I have tons of respect for the man.

I personally don't believe 75% of the game was using. I could be wrong. I've always thought it to be closer to 50% based on the reports and the supposed anonymous testing that ended up coming to light.

I would bet close to 50% of the players now are using some form of performance enhancing drugs. While I was playing minor league ball it was all over the place whether it was amps, roids, or some other form of enhancement it was there. And that was in the last 5-6 years. I without a doubt would guess it was upwards of 75% of the players during that time period. You only hear about the big names that were doing it most casual fans cant name a reliever or utility player on any team, it was and still is pretty rampant.

Like I stated earlier they have one piss test a year that is supposed to be random, it is not hard to get away with that unless you have already been popped once.

[louisvilledawg]

No the hall of fame is a popularity contest joke. Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter ever.

HOF Voting is a joke for sure. Griffey Jr. should've been unanimous and wasn't.

Disagree with Bonds being the best hitter, but I think he's up there for sure.

[louisvilledawg]

Dude stop proving to the board what they already know about you.

75% or more of the entire league was using something illegal during that time frame. I even personally know another player of that era that played for Cleveland who told me about players and actually used himself. Even got caught once and had to sit out games. It was part of the era But let's not listen to the guys who were actually in the locker rooms.

You probably haven't even been in the same city at the same time, as those women you listed.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths of which people will go to attempt to discredit something that doesn't fit their mindset or narrative. Even when they have no substantive evidence, they make such ridiculous and far fetched claims as a rebuttal, such as in this case, to throw out a substantiated and factually based statement that I made. It's actually a tactic of Saul Alinsky for those whom care to look it up. Respond to something you don't like with something unrealistic and then the public discredits both. Might work with be general public but you can't fool someone who's studied the other teams playbook as much as the other team.

The liberal left uses this tactic all the time when they are exposed. Bearshart fans used this tactic as well.

And a footnote. Glavins and Maddux were clean. Smoltz, not so much.

To hooking up with Jessica Rabbit:

https://media.tenor.co/images/33ec8a1a310411d87c49c8cf7a8b16eb/tenor.gif