Want To Know How Scouts Missed on Prescott? Its Happening Again

[ShotgunDawg]

I have a ton of respect for the scouting industry & the difficulties & uncertainties that arise in it. However, I believe where many scouts & organizations get caught is when they begin to miss the forests for the trees & become blinded to the obvious.

It happened last year with Dak, happened with Keytaon Thompson's ranking, & is now happening again in the 2017 NFL draft. Scouts get so caught up in workouts, 7 on 7 drills, how pretty a ball a guy throws, raw arm strength, etc that they fail to account for the main purpose of a QB: to lead his team down the field & score. No matter how you slice it, the ability to lead men down the field, make plays, win football games is absolutely the most important ingredient in QB evaluation so long as the QB has an adequate physical tool-set (Tebow did not).

So here we are again, the 2017 NFL Draft is quickly approaching & mock drafts are beginning to rank this Mitch Trubisky as the #1 QB. Problem is, there is this guy named Deshaun Watson at Clemson who has led his team to back to back national title games, has accumulated a 67% completion % & 87 TDs in college football & shows up on film like the State Puft Marshmellow Man while, if you've ever watched North Carolina play, you may as well paint Trubisky green because he blends right in with the field.

Why do scouts do this? They are conditioned to look at & rank physical tool sets while many times leaving performance & common sense out. Additionally, many times it can be boring for scouts to just take the obvious guy. Many times scouts are rewarded for finding the under the radar guy & that can lead to a bias towards them believing the under the radar guy is better than the obvious guy. It's sexier & they get more credit if correct.

In any event, I think Trubisky over DeShaun Watson is absolutely absurd. IMO, you take guys that show up on the field. Good chance you draft a bunch of good players if you do that.

http://i.imgur.com/FKi8ehX.jpg

[smootness]

It goes both ways. Matt Leinart was drafted high because of his college performance, not his actual talent and skills, and that was a mistake as well.

I don't think Trubisky is anything special, but I don't think any QB this year is. Watson is no Dak.

[Dawg61]

Couldn't resist to get that Tebow jab in huh. Tebow is way better than that garbage Oakland trotted out to play QB. Texans too. Tebow should be in the NFL right now as a QB and it's a disgusting black eye on our society and NFL that he is not.

[BrunswickDawg]

I think Tebow created a real stigma for scouts when it comes to QB's coming from run first spread option teams.
On paper, he met all the measurables that you mentioned that scouts look for. He had size, could look great in 7v7, had a cannon, and could lead a team downfield and score. His passing stats coming out of UF backed it up too. On top of it he had "the look" of a can't miss QB.

The problem was, I don't think those scouts ever looked at any film. If you look at '08, UF was a RUN first team and Tebow was only relied on to throw the ball 20-25 times a game. And Dan did a great job of masking his inefficiencies with FREAK athletes surrounding TT at WR and RB. They had 4 players with 600+ rushing yards and 9 players with a 10+ yard per catch average. That is insane production.

Tebow was an incredible leader, and mirrored Dak in so many ways. I actually think that Denver should have given him another year, but 2 stats killed him - completion percentage of 46.5% and fumbles (of all things). He fumbled 15 times in 2011. You can't do that and hang around long.

[ShotgunDawg]

Couldn't resist to get that Tebow jab in huh. Tebow is way better than that garbage Oakland trotted out to play QB. Texans too. Tebow should be in the NFL right now as a QB and it's a disgusting black eye on our society and NFL that he is not.

You know what..... for once I'm going to agree with you.

As bad as the Tebow pick looks in hindsight, I could make an argument that the pick was in many ways made on the foundation of sound decision making & it just didn't work out.

Perhaps his arm action wasn't fixable, but Dak's arm action has changed a little since being Dallas, so it's not completely unfixable.

Sometimes, organizations, companies, & teams make the decision for all the correct reasons & quality information, but they just don't work out.

Maybe a guy with the track record of Tebow works out 8 of 10 times.

[smootness]

You know what..... for once I'm going to agree with you.

As bad as the Tebow pick looks in hindsight, I could make an argument that the pick was in many ways made on the foundation of sound decision making & it just didn't work out.

Perhaps his arm action wasn't fixable, but Dak's arm action has changed a little since being Dallas, so it's not completely unfixable.

Sometimes, organizations, companies, & teams make the decision for all the correct reasons & quality information, but they just don't work out.

Maybe a guy with the track record of Tebow works out 8 of 10 times.

Tebow was uber successful in college, like to absurd degrees...and they took him in the 1st round. That's the kind of pick you're advocating...and he didn't work out. Because succeeding in college isn't the same as succeeding in the NFL. If it was, of course scouting would be easy. You seem to think the NFL should just pick the guy who put up numbers and won in college...except a ton of those guys have failed in the NFL. Vince Young is another. Look at the track record of Heisman winners in the NFL.

[Cary Hudson's little bro]

I have a ton of respect for the scouting industry & the difficulties & uncertainties that arise in it. However, I believe where many scouts & organizations get caught is when they begin to miss the forests for the trees & become blinded to the obvious.

It happened last year with Dak, happened with Keytaon Thompson's ranking, & is now happening again in the 2017 NFL draft. Scouts get so caught up in workouts, 7 on 7 drills, how pretty a ball a guy throws, raw arm strength, etc that they fail to account for the main purpose of a QB: to lead his team down the field & score. No matter how you slice it, the ability to lead men down the field, make plays, win football games is absolutely the most important ingredient in QB evaluation so long as the QB has an adequate physical tool-set (Tebow did not).

So here we are again, the 2017 NFL Draft is quickly approaching & mock drafts are beginning to rank this Mitch Trubisky as the #1 QB. Problem is, there is this guy named Deshaun Watson at Clemson who has led his team to back to back national title games, has accumulated a 67% completion % & 87 TDs in college football & shows up on film like the State Puft Marshmellow Man while, if you've ever watched North Carolina play, you may as well paint Trubisky green because he blends right in with the field.

Why do scouts do this? They are conditioned to look at & rank physical tool sets while many times leaving performance & common sense out. Additionally, many times it can be boring for scouts to just take the obvious guy. Many times scouts are rewarded for finding the under the radar guy & that can lead to a bias towards them believing the under the radar guy is better than the obvious guy. It's sexier & they get more credit if correct.

In any event, I think Trubisky over DeShaun Watson is absolutely absurd. IMO, you take guys that show up on the field. Good chance you draft a bunch of good players if you do that.

http://i.imgur.com/FKi8ehX.jpg


Could not disagree with you more on your "Watson will be a better pro than Trubisky" take. Watch 1 minute of film on MT and you see Carson Wentz or Andrew Luck (even personality-wise). Pocket awareness, keeping his eyes up under pressure, reading defenses. He's better than Watson now and will be better in the NFL IMO. Unless the 17n Browns pick him. Watson is RGIII or a tick below Mariota, maybe.

[shoeless joe]

Tebow was uber successful in college, like to absurd degrees...and they took him in the 1st round. That's the kind of pick you're advocating...and he didn't work out. Because succeeding in college isn't the same as succeeding in the NFL. If it was, of course scouting would be easy. You seem to think the NFL should just pick the guy who put up numbers and won in college...except a ton of those guys have failed in the NFL. Vince Young is another. Look at the track record of Heisman winners in the NFL.

Yep. Tons of guys were great in college but couldn't cut it in the pros. That's why it's interesting that dan had several guys that have made good pros. His prep for NFL seems to be on the high side. Tebow being the least pro ready. There is no doubt that tebow hurt dak and that dak will help the next potential NFL guy coming from a Mullen offense.

[HSVDawg]

Couldn't resist to get that Tebow jab in huh. Tebow is way better than that garbage Oakland trotted out to play QB. Texans too. Tebow should be in the NFL right now as a QB and it's a disgusting black eye on our society and NFL that he is not.

A disgusting black eye on society? Are you serious? What does that even mean?

[defiantdog]

Trivially is very similar to Blake Bortles. He's a good qb, but he isn't going to win any championships.

[thf24]

Tebow had an overall 49.7 completion percentage during his time in the NFL. The fact of the matter is that his short-term success with Denver was an anomaly, and no amount of IT factor, as important as it is, would have masked his inaccuracy and flaws as a passer in the long-term. Tebow simply wasn't good enough to stay in the NFL, end of story.

[Quaoarsking]

Couldn't resist to get that Tebow jab in huh. Tebow is way better than that garbage Oakland trotted out to play QB. Texans too. Tebow should be in the NFL right now as a QB and it's a disgusting black eye on our society and NFL that he is not.

There are currently 95 QBs on NFL rosters: http://www.espn.com/nfl/players/_/position/qb

Although he's not a top 32 QB, I have no doubt that Tebow is a top 96 QB and if he wanted a job as a backup NFL QB, he'd be able to find it. But that's not what he wants in his life, and that's OK too.

[BrunswickDawg]

A disgusting black eye on society? Are you serious? What does that even mean?
It's the belief that Tebow wasn't given a chance because he is an outspoken Christian. There are plenty of those in the NFL. The ones who don't fumble 15 times in one season get to stick around.

[ShotgunDawg]

Could not disagree with you more on your "Watson will be a better pro than Trubisky" take. Watch 1 minute of film on MT and you see Carson Wentz or Andrew Luck (even personality-wise). Pocket awareness, keeping his eyes up under pressure, reading defenses. He's better than Watson now and will be better in the NFL IMO. Unless the 17n Browns pick him. Watson is RGIII or a tick below Mariota, maybe.

Disagree, but you put forth your opinion is a valid manner

[ShotgunDawg]

Because succeeding in college isn't the same as succeeding in the NFL. If it was, of course scouting would be easy. You seem to think the NFL should just pick the guy who put up numbers and won in college...except a ton of those guys have failed in the NFL. Vince Young is another. Look at the track record of Heisman winners in the NFL.

You do this often & just completely mis-interpreted what I said. I did not say, "Just take the best college player."

I said, "don't miss the forest for the trees." So long as the player has an adequate tool set.

Completely different than just taking the best college player.

[BeardoMSU]

It's the belief that Tebow wasn't given a chance because he is an outspoken Christian. There are plenty of those in the NFL. The ones who don't fumble 15 times in one season get to stick around.
This.

[smootness]

You do this often & just completely mis-interpreted what I said. I did not say, "Just take the best college player."

I said, "don't miss the forest for the trees." So long as the player has an adequate tool set.

Completely different than just taking the best college player.

Sure, but there was some of that in there. I don't disagree that scouts shouldn't just use a guy's physical attributes and combine/workout performance to judge them. It should primarily be an evaluation of game film combined with interviews.

But Trubisky performed extremely well this year. I don't know that it's fair to use the fact that UNC didn't win as many games to show that it's a mistake to put him ahead of Watson. In fact, that is part of what led Dak to be undervalued. He won 8 games his senior year and never won anything of note.

I just don't think it's obvious that Watson is a better pro than Trubisky and certainly don't think that any lessons learned from Dak would lead you there. Dak is a special case, a 1 in 1,000,000. I don't blame scouts and evaluators for missing on him, and I don't think it's going to be obvious to spot the next Dak when he comes along...well, if he comes along, as I think what Dak is doing is unprecedented in NFL history.

[HSVDawg]

It's the belief that Tebow wasn't given a chance because he is an outspoken Christian. There are plenty of those in the NFL. The ones who don't fumble 15 times in one season get to stick around.

I should have known it would be something about as ridiculous as that. I'm sure there aren't any NFL players, coaches, or GM's included in the 83% of the US population that identify themselves as Christians.

[msstate7]

It's the belief that Tebow wasn't given a chance because he is an outspoken Christian. There are plenty of those in the NFL. The ones who don't fumble 15 times in one season get to stick around.

I can't think of one of the outspoken Christians that were in an anti-abortion commercial during super bowl. The NFL hates political/religious stands imo

[smootness]

I can't think of one of the outspoken Christians that were in an anti-abortion commercial during super bowl. The NFL hates political/religious stands imo

But they don't tell teams who they can sign. Tebow got his shot with multiple teams. I still think the fact that a QB whose only real shot as a starting QB included a crazy turnaround and playoff win never got another shot as a starter is one of the weirder situations we've ever seen, but I also don't necessarily fault those teams who let him go.

[HereComesTheSpiral]

I can't think of one of the outspoken Christians that were in an anti-abortion commercial during super bowl. The NFL hates political/religious stands imo

You're right, they love it when you kneel.

[Gutter Cobreh]

QB'ing has just as much to do with what is between the ears as it does the mechanics of the position...

You have to be able to process information quickly, regardless of how gifted you are athletically. This is why someone like Johnny Football looks good in college, but can't cut it in the NFL. Same with Russell, Tebow, Brady Quinn, V Young, etc. The level at which even the worst teams scheme, makes the job 100x harder.

[Irondawg]

I'm still far from sold on Watson. I'm not convinced he's anything special either.

[Dawg61]

The ones who don't fumble 15 times in one season get to stick around.

Do the ones with a career .615 winning % get to usually stick around? Tebow is 8-5 as a starting QB. How many QBs in this league have a better winning percentage than that after 10 starts? Tebow also had 660 rushing yards the one year he was given a chance. The NFL leader this year for rushing yards by a QB is Tyrod Taylor with 580 yds.

[BeardoMSU]

Do the ones with a career .615 winning % get to usually stick around? Tebow is 8-5 as a starting QB. How many QBs in this league have a better winning percentage than that after 10 starts? Tebow also had 660 rushing yards the one year he was given a chance. The NFL leader this year for rushing yards by a QB is Tyrod Taylor with 580 yds.

In those 8 wins, these are the points the Bronco's D gave up:

10
32
13
13
10
24
15
45 (loss to Pats)


Meanwhile, these were Tim's Comp% and QBR, respectively, for those same games:

52.5, 22.3
66.7, 80.3
50.0, 42.2
45.0, 68.4
25.0, 50.0
47.6, 73.8
48.1, 66.3
47.6, 97.2 (definitely his best game)

Now lets look at a similar break down for the 6 losses credited to Tebow:

Scoring Defense:

7 (lost 7-3)
40 (lost 40-14)
41 (lost 41-23)
45 (lost 45-10)
29 (lost 29-24)
45 (lost 45-10)

Comp%, QBR

27.3, 5.6 (yikes...)
44.8, 34.5
50.0, 57.4
46.2, 11.9
40.0, 60.5
34.6, 29.3

[Bubb Rubb]

Dak was the exception, not the rule. Dak has intangibles that don't show up at the combine. More often than not, pro scouts are going to be a little closer to correct, but it's obviously not an exact science and there are going to be some misses.

[BeardoMSU]

Dak was the exception, not the rule. Dak has intangibles that don't show up at the combine. More often than not, pro scouts are going to be a little closer to correct, but it's obviously not an exact science and there are going to be some misses.

There is a stigma placed on QB's from spread teams. It just is what it is. For Dak, there were also questions about his throwing motion and footwork, both things that have a huge impact on a QB's timing and accuracy. Scouts didn't believe Dak could fix these issues, probably stemming from the fact that they also loved to compare him to Tebow, who didn't make any adjustments in his game (not from a lack of trying, he just isn't as talented. Period). Dak looks like a different player now as compared to his combine showing, and that is a credit to both his talent ceiling and his work ethic.

[CarolinaDawgs]

Could not disagree with you more on your "Watson will be a better pro than Trubisky" take. Watch 1 minute of film on MT and you see Carson Wentz or Andrew Luck (even personality-wise). Pocket awareness, keeping his eyes up under pressure, reading defenses. He's better than Watson now and will be better in the NFL IMO. Unless the 17n Browns pick him. Watson is RGIII or a tick below Mariota, maybe.

A tick below Mariota is a high mark FWIW. Mariota has been pretty damn good last two seasons. Only reason he isnt getting more recognition is because Titans dont have a pulse in the secondary.

[Dawg61]

Factor in leading and motivating into his QBR. Oh you can't. Best way to do that is to just look at his winning percentage since that's what football is about. Winning. Not QBR and passing accuracy. Again how many active QBs have a better winning % than Tebow with 10 or more starts? The answer is 6 and all 6 of them are still alive in the playoffs this year. Blake Bortles is 11-34 (.244 winning %) as a starter in Tebow's hometown of Jacksonville. Looks to me like winning isn't the most important thing for most NFL teams.

[BrunswickDawg]

Do the ones with a career .615 winning % get to usually stick around? Tebow is 8-5 as a starting QB. How many QBs in this league have a better winning percentage than that after 10 starts? Tebow also had 660 rushing yards the one year he was given a chance. The NFL leader this year for rushing yards by a QB is Tyrod Taylor with 580 yds.

Denver had a pounding rushing attack that season - Tebow, 1200 yards from Willis McGahee, 400 yards from Lance Ball. Tebow fit in well with that. But, it was one dimensional and you can't do that in the NFL.

Tebow beat Miami (0-6), Oakland (3-5), KC (4-5), Jets (5-5), Chargers in OT (4-7), Vikings (2-10), Bears (7-6) in OT, and the big upset of the Steelers (12-5) in playoffs (minus their best RB Rashard Mendenhall). After the streak of 6 wins, teams figured out he couldn't throw accurately enough and made it impossible for him to throw. That is why in the season finally against a bad Chiefs team, Tebow managed a god awful 6/22 for 60 yards. That was an incredibly ugly 7-3 game.

Point is, everyone had figured Tebow out and everyone knew it. He couldn't adapt his game to the next level and teams were not willing to pay him.

[BeardoMSU]

Factor in leading and motivating into his QBR. Oh you can't. Best way to do that is to just look at his winning percentage since that's what football is about. Winning. Not QBR and passing accuracy. Again how many active QBs have a better winning % than Tebow with 10 or more starts? The answer is 6 and all 6 of them are still alive in the playoffs this year. Blake Bortles is 11-34 (.244 winning %) as a starter in Tebow's hometown of Jacksonville. Looks to me like winning isn't the most important thing for most NFL teams.

I get it. Winning is the post important thing in football. However, winning with Tebow hinges on you having a defense that will only give up 10 points a game in the hope he can get you 13. Not a sustainable formula.

[Dawg61]

I get it. Winning is the post important thing in football. However, winning with Tebow hinges on you having a defense that will only give up 10 points a game in the hope he can get you 13. Not a sustainable formula.

Yea that defense is so good it missed the playoffs five years in a row before Tebow and missed the playoffs this year without Manning.

[dawgs]

There are currently 95 QBs on NFL rosters: http://www.espn.com/nfl/players/_/position/qb

Although he's not a top 32 QB, I have no doubt that Tebow is a top 96 QB and if he wanted a job as a backup NFL QB, he'd be able to find it. But that's not what he wants in his life, and that's OK too.

The problem is (1) we know what tebow is, there's no upside (like say with someone like Connor cook who started for Oakland due to injuries), and (2) tebow has such a limited skill set as a passer and needs an offense catered so specifically to him, that carrying him as your primary backup is worthless for most teams because when you need to go to your backup, whether for a few series or a few games, you can't completely change your offense.

There's a reason high profile guys or former elite starters rarely have a lengthy career as a backup QB. guys like chase Daniel or Tom savage may have a long career as a backup QB, while someone like Jamarcus russel or Ryan leaf are gone completely in a few years. Being a backup QB is a unique skill in and of itself that many guys aren't willing to accept. And part of the problem with tebow are the tebow fans that clamor for him to start regardless of the quality of his play. Tebow as a backup QB for most teams would already have a very vocal group wanting him to start because TEBOW, and if the starter has a bad game or 2, that noise would only get louder quickly from the pro-tebow crowd that views him only through his religious stances and not through his football ability.

[BeardoMSU]

Yea that defense is so good it missed the playoffs five years in a row before Tebow and missed the playoffs this year without Manning.

Lol, Ok....you really need to move past this. It's over.

[dawgs]

Yea that defense is so good it missed the playoffs five years in a row before Tebow and missed the playoffs this year without Manning.

Flukes happen.

[BeardoMSU]

The problem is (1) we know what tebow is, there's no upside (like say with someone like Connor cook who started for Oakland due to injuries), and (2) tebow has such a limited skill set as a passer and needs an offense catered so specifically to him, that carrying him as your primary backup is worthless for most teams because when you need to go to your backup, whether for a few series or a few games, you can't completely change your offense.

There's a reason high profile guys or former elite starters rarely have a lengthy career as a backup QB, which guys like chase Daniel or Tom savage may have a long career as a backup QB, while someone like Jamarcus russel or Ryan leaf was gone completely in a few years. Being a backup QB is a unique skill in and of itself that many guys aren't willing to accept. And part of the problem with tebow are the tebow fans that clamor for him to start regardless of the quality of his play. Tebow as a backup QB for most teams would already have a very vocal group wanting him to start because TEBOW, and if the starter has a bad game or 2, that noise would only get louder quickly from the pro-tebow crowd that views him only through his religious stances and not through his football ability.

Great post.

[Bubb Rubb]

There is a stigma placed on QB's from spread teams. It just is what it is. For Dak, there were also questions about his throwing motion and footwork, both things that have a huge impact on a QB's timing and accuracy. Scouts didn't believe Dak could fix these issues, probably stemming from the fact that they also loved to compare him to Tebow, who didn't make any adjustments in his game (not from a lack of trying, he just isn't as talented. Period). Dak looks like a different player now as compared to his combine showing, and that is a credit to both his talent ceiling and his work ethic.

Work ethic. That's what I meant. His work ethic and leadership skills are off the charts - once in a generation type stuff - and those are intangibles that you don't always see.

I think spread QBs are becoming less of a liability in the eyes of pro scouts. More and more NFL teams are starting to adopt some of those spread principles in their offenses. I think there were some valid concerns about Dak's athleticism, but his intangibles have helped him overcome that.

[BrunswickDawg]

Factor in leading and motivating into his QBR. Oh you can't. Best way to do that is to just look at his winning percentage since that's what football is about. Winning. Not QBR and passing accuracy. Again how many active QBs have a better winning % than Tebow with 10 or more starts? The answer is 6 and all 6 of them are still alive in the playoffs this year. Blake Bortles is 11-34 (.244 winning %) as a starter in Tebow's hometown of Jacksonville. Looks to me like winning isn't the most important thing for most NFL teams.

But when Tebow was traded to the Jets, the Jags had Blake Gabbert who they had just invested big in. Dropping Gabbert for Tebow would have just swapped bad QB for bad QB. Go look at the stats for 2012 QBs and show me who in the top 32 in QBR Tebow should have replaced?? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/passing.htm

Maybe, maybe the dynamic duo of Gabbert and Chad Henne in Jax. And Jax had an awful OL and no running game. Tebow would have gotten eaten alive on that 2-14 Jags team.

And if you need proof that winning isn't everything use Archie Manning instead. 35-101-3 lifetime record with 125 TDs and 173 INTS. Good lord why is he revered??

[Dawg61]

Lol, Ok....you really need to move past this. It's over.

I'll move past it when people call it like it is. Tebow is too perfect for the masses that prefer their steak to have a little gristle on it. People tried calling him gay, then they said he is a pedophile, then they said he is too religious, then they said he's too much of a distraction and then they finally found the wrinkle they could use to justify murdering his career. QBR and passing accuracy. Be happy you got what you wanted. Just don't expect me to stfu about it. Ever.

[drunkernhelldawg]

Couldn't resist to get that Tebow jab in huh. Tebow is way better than that garbage Oakland trotted out to play QB. Texans too. Tebow should be in the NFL right now as a QB and it's a disgusting black eye on our society and NFL that he is not.

It's a black eye of his own making, if it is the reason, which I doubt. Amazing how people still want to assign some political nonsense to Tebow not cutting it in the league. It's all about performance as well as fitting in with the family of your team. Both are vital to success. You don't perform with ink on a page; you do it on a football field and in the locker room. You do it or you don't. If you can play QB in the league, there are plenty of teams that can use you.

[BeardoMSU]

Work ethic. That's what I meant. His work ethic and leadership skills are off the charts - once in a generation type stuff - and those are intangibles that you don't always see.

I think spread QBs are becoming less of a liability in the eyes of pro scouts. More and more NFL teams are starting to adopt some of those spread principles in their offenses. I think there were some valid concerns about Dak's athleticism, but his intangibles have helped him overcome that.

I knew what you meant, and I agree. I'm sure Tebow had a huge work ethic, too, but his talent "upside" wasn't in the same stratosphere as Dak's, which is why all his "motivation and leadership" stuff could only take him so far. The argument works both ways, too. You can have a player with huge athleticism and upside, but is a ****ing doofus, or just a convict off the field.

[BeardoMSU]

I'll move past it when people call it like it is. Tebow is too perfect for the masses that prefer their steak to have a little gristle on it. People tried calling him gay, then they said he is a pedophile, then they said he is too religious, then they said he's too much of a distraction and then they finally found the wrinkle they could use to justify murdering his career. QBR and passing accuracy. Be happy you got what you wanted. Just don't expect me to stfu about it. Ever.

What people? Who? Football people, or internet trolls? Jesus.

"Happy I got what I wanted"? I was pulling for Tim. I'm not celebrating his lack of an NFL career. I'm just pointing out why he's not there, and it's got nothing to do with the self-victimization you're hinging on.

[Dawg61]

But when Tebow was traded to the Jets, the Jags had Blake Gabbert who they had just invested big in. Dropping Gabbert for Tebow would have just swapped bad QB for bad QB. Go look at the stats for 2012 QBs and show me who in the top 32 in QBR Tebow should have replaced?? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/passing.htm

Maybe, maybe the dynamic duo of Gabbert and Chad Henne in Jax. And Jax had an awful OL and no running game. Tebow would have gotten eaten alive on that 2-14 Jags team.

You serious? I can't tell. I stopped counting after Josh Freeman, Christian Ponder and Jake Locker. Hahahaha three of the worst QBs in the last twenty years. (finished counting to answer your question, 13 names is the answer I got)

[BrunswickDawg]

You serious? I can't tell. I stopped counting after Josh Freeman, Christian Ponder and Jake Locker. Hahahaha three of the worst QBs in the last twenty years. (finished counting to answer your question, 13 names is the answer I got)

All players who washed out of the league just as quickly as Tebow.

[Dawg61]

What people? Who? Football people, or internet trolls? Jesus.

"Happy I got what I wanted"? I was pulling for Tim. I'm not celebrating his lack of an NFL career. I'm just pointing out why he's not there, and it's got nothing to do with the self-victimization you're hinging on.

Sorry I lumped you into that group. There's a very large portion of football fans that simply want Tebow to disappear. They just don't like him. Plain and simple. People like a little bit of dirt on others. They worship Kim Kardashian and give awards to Bruce Jenner. Colin Kaepernick is celebrated for being a hero and Tim Tebow gets thrown out the league despite having the 6th best winning percentage.

[thf24]

I think spread QBs are becoming less of a liability in the eyes of pro scouts. More and more NFL teams are starting to adopt some of those spread principles in their offenses. I think there were some valid concerns about Dak's athleticism, but his intangibles have helped him overcome that.

The reason for this is that there are more dual-threat guys who can throw the ball at an NFL level coming out compared to years past. You don't see nearly as many successful college QB's who complete 5 of 8 passes per game and do most of the work with their legs anymore. NFL teams are starting to incorporate QB run elements as a luxury since more guys coming up can do it, not because they're seeking them out for that quality. Being able to throw the ball at the necessary level is still the overwhelming priority.

[smootness]

Work ethic. That's what I meant. His work ethic and leadership skills are off the charts - once in a generation type stuff - and those are intangibles that you don't always see.

I think spread QBs are becoming less of a liability in the eyes of pro scouts. More and more NFL teams are starting to adopt some of those spread principles in their offenses. I think there were some valid concerns about Dak's athleticism, but his intangibles have helped him overcome that.

I think some of the questions about spread QBs remain. Dak is successful because he's incredibly smart. Playing in a spread offense in college didn't help or hurt his NFL chances.

[BB30]

Sorry I lumped you into that group. There's a very large portion of football fans that simply want Tebow to disappear. They just don't like him. Plain and simple. People like a little bit of dirt on others. They worship Kim Kardashian and give awards to Bruce Jenner. Colin Kaepernick is celebrated for being a hero and Tim Tebow gets thrown out the league despite having the 6th best winning percentage.

I was a Tebow fan no doubt. But, he was never going to be a franchise QB. That "Excuse" to get him out of the NFL you were talking about tends to be pretty important. When you are completing under 50% of your passes in a passing league you probably aren't going to stick around too long. No doubt some didn't like him because of what you are stating but I assure you if he was playing like Tom Brady he would still be in the league regardless of religious beliefs or any other thing.

[Bubb Rubb]

I'll move past it when people call it like it is. Tebow is too perfect for the masses that prefer their steak to have a little gristle on it. People tried calling him gay, then they said he is a pedophile, then they said he is too religious, then they said he's too much of a distraction and then they finally found the wrinkle they could use to justify murdering his career. QBR and passing accuracy. Be happy you got what you wanted. Just don't expect me to stfu about it. Ever.

You know, I like and respect Tebow's convictions, and I admire that he has stuck to them. But just as people like you ask NFL scouts and people critical of him to not penalize him for his faith, you need to understand that many evaluations of his ability by scouts and pro coaches were unrelated to his faith. The argument about Tebow being persecuted because of his faith is stupid at best. The guy wasn't a good pro quarterback. Your other statement about him being better than Oakland's backup is also nonsense. If he was, he'd be in the league. Teams looked for an excuse to sign him if for no other reason than publicity and ticket sales that come with it. Hell, the Mets signed him for that very reason - not for his baseball ability.

Let's call it like it is, as you said. Tebow couldn't cut it, and it was because of his limitations at the position, not because he liked to pray on the sidelines. Of course there were people who didn't like that, but that's not what "murdered his career."

[smootness]

I'll move past it when people call it like it is. Tebow is too perfect for the masses that prefer their steak to have a little gristle on it. People tried calling him gay, then they said he is a pedophile, then they said he is too religious, then they said he's too much of a distraction and then they finally found the wrinkle they could use to justify murdering his career. QBR and passing accuracy. Be happy you got what you wanted. Just don't expect me to stfu about it. Ever.

You think Bill Belichick gives a crap about some kind of movement to get Tebow out of the league? Or any other coach whose sole goal is to win football games?

I like Tebow and I love what he stands for. But the reason he's out of the NFL, as has been noted in this thread, is because no team feels like he is good enough to move forward with as a starting QB, and he doesn't want to switch positions. That's it.

[BB30]

I think some of the questions about spread QBs remain. Dak is successful because he's incredibly smart. Playing in a spread offense in college didn't help or hurt his NFL chances.

I think that is warranted to an extent as well. The bottom line is you have to look at the individual and IMO how he progressed throughout college and combine that with the natural physical tools a kid has to make a determination on what his ceiling is. I do think some scouts and teams shied away from him because of Spread/Tebow and being scared to make a mistake. When Dak left he was still trending up as far as the strides he had made while in college. His passing game was much improved his SR year and his understanding of the game was as well. I don't think any state fan saw him having the immediate success that he has but I don't doubt that most of us aside from Mr Check down Charlie thought he would have a shot at being a pretty solid NFL QB.

[thf24]

Sorry I lumped you into that group. There's a very large portion of football fans that simply want Tebow to disappear. They just don't like him. Plain and simple. People like a little bit of dirt on others. They worship Kim Kardashian and give awards to Bruce Jenner. Colin Kaepernick is celebrated for being a hero and Tim Tebow gets thrown out the league despite having the 6th best winning percentage.

Two questions:

1. Do you honestly believe that Tebow would have sustained that winning percentage over the course of 4-5 seasons putting up the numbers that he did in his 13 games as a starter?

2. Do you think Tebow would have been "run out of the league" in the exact same manner if he'd acted exactly the same way but completed 65% of his passes and averaged 3 TD's and 300 yards in those 13 games?

[Dawg61]

Two questions:

1. Do you honestly believe that Tebow would have sustained that winning percentage over the course of 4-5 seasons putting up the numbers that he did in his 13 games as a starter? I think if a team would have fully gone all in with his style of play and surrounded him with pieces that fit that system yes

2. Do you think Tebow would have been "run out of the league" in the exact same manner if he'd acted exactly the same way but completed 65% of his passes and averaged 3 TD's and 300 yards in those 13 games? No you can be Blake Bortles and be 11-34 as a starter and still get shot after shot cause ultimately winning isn't the most important thing for some teams

http://s1.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/tebow-overtime-touchdown-vs-steelers-tim-tebow-gifs.gif

[DudyDawg]

Look how very little of that play was on Tebow.

[Dawg61]

Look how very little of that play was on Tebow.

Thanks for proving my point

[BrunswickDawg]

Quote Originally Posted by thf24 View Post
Two questions:

1. Do you honestly believe that Tebow would have sustained that winning percentage over the course of 4-5 seasons putting up the numbers that he did in his 13 games as a starter? I think if a team would have fully gone all in with his style of play and surrounded him with pieces that fit that system yes

2. Do you think Tebow would have been "run out of the league" in the exact same manner if he'd acted exactly the same way but completed 65% of his passes and averaged 3 TD's and 300 yards in those 13 games? No you can be Blake Bortles and be 11-34 as a starter and still get shot after shot cause ultimately winning isn't the most important thing for some teams

Tebow got by in Denver that season because of a stout D and a solid running game. If you put him in Jacksonville the past 3 seasons (like Bortles), I'm not sure they could have won more than 4-5 total games. The only reason the Jags have won 11 games is Bortles. They are as inept as an Archie Manning led Saints team ever thought about being. And again - the league figured Tebow out and shut Denver down 4 of the last 5 games they played. That wasn't going to change no matter what team he played for.

[Reason2succeed]

Do the ones with a career .615 winning % get to usually stick around? Tebow is 8-5 as a starting QB. How many QBs in this league have a better winning percentage than that after 10 starts? Tebow also had 660 rushing yards the one year he was given a chance. The NFL leader this year for rushing yards by a QB is Tyrod Taylor with 580 yds.

Tebow could not play QB in the NFL becaus his style does not align with the NFL business model. NFL QBs are supposed to hand the ball to running backs and pass the ball to WRs. In college he ran the ball himself for more yards than is allowable in the NFL.

What do I mean by that?!? The RBs will eventually get pissed because it is their contract year and they are not getting their touches. The WR will eventually get mad because they are not getting enough quality targets. So no, it's not that Tebow could not win in the NFL. It's that he could not win consistently because eventually all of the offensive talent would leave the team because he wasn't distributing the ball enough.

[DudyDawg]

Thanks for proving my point

Don't see how that proves he should be in the NFL.

[thf24]

Tebow could not play QB in the NFL becaus his style does not align with the NFL business model. NFL QBs are supposed to hand the ball to running backs and pass the ball to WRs. In college he ran the ball himself for more yards than is allowable in the NFL.

What do I mean by that?!? The RBs will eventually get pissed because it is their contract year and they are not getting their touches. The WR will eventually get mad because they are not getting enough quality targets. So no, it's not that Tebow could not win in the NFL. It's that he could not win consistently because eventually all of the offensive talent would leave the team because he wasn't distributing the ball enough.

No one player in the NFL can do enough on his own that others as a collective would start complaining about touches. He'd be completely shut down and benched long before that happened. It doesn't require a complicated or thoughtful answer to explain why he wasn't successful in the NFL. An NFL QB must be able to execute a passing offense at a very high level for sustained success, and he was not capable of that level. Period, end of story.

[drunkernhelldawg]

Tebow could not play QB in the NFL becaus his style does not align with the NFL business model. NFL QBs are supposed to hand the ball to running backs and pass the ball to WRs. In college he ran the ball himself for more yards than is allowable in the NFL.

What do I mean by that?!? The RBs will eventually get pissed because it is their contract year and they are not getting their touches. The WR will eventually get mad because they are not getting enough quality targets. So no, it's not that Tebow could not win in the NFL. It's that he could not win consistently because eventually all of the offensive talent would leave the team because he wasn't distributing the ball enough.

That's ridiculous.

[Dawg61]

It doesn't require a complicated or thoughtful answer to explain why he wasn't successful in the NFL.

So leading a team into the playoffs that had missed them the previous 5 season in a row and then getting a playoff win over the Steelers is now not successful? He didn't get another start after he lost to Brady the next game. I will forever believe that Rex Ryan signed Tebow (after watching him beat him) with the sole intentions of burying him on his depth chart and ultimately get him blackballed outta the league. Ryan's plan worked. Tebow never started again and now he's gone.

[BrunswickDawg]

So leading a team into the playoffs that had missed them the previous 5 season in a row and then getting a playoff win over the Steelers is now not successful? He didn't get another start after he lost to Brady the next game. I will forever believe that Rex Ryan signed Tebow (after watching him beat him) with the sole intentions of burying him on his depth chart and ultimately get him blackballed outta the league. Ryan's plan worked. Tebow never started again and now he's gone.

Denver went 8-8 that season and tied for the Division with Oakland and San Diego and was only 1 game up on the Chiefs. They played in a shitty division that was full of mediocre teams and backdoored it into the playoffs on a 3 game lossing streak after the Raiders shit the bed in the season ender against the Chargers. It was not some mighty accomplishment that got them into the playoffs - it was league parity.

[DudyDawg]

So leading a team into the playoffs that had missed them the previous 5 season in a row and then getting a playoff win over the Steelers is now not successful? He didn't get another start after he lost to Brady the next game. I will forever believe that Rex Ryan signed Tebow (after watching him beat him) with the sole intentions of burying him on his depth chart and ultimately get him blackballed outta the league. Ryan's plan worked. Tebow never started again and now he's gone.

That's a special kind of foolish.

[HSVDawg]

Man, this thread went south in a hurry.

[Dawg61]

Denver went 8-8 that season and tied for the Division with Oakland and San Diego and was only 1 game up on the Chiefs. They played in a shitty division that was full of mediocre teams and backdoored it into the playoffs on a 3 game lossing streak after the Raiders shit the bed in the season ender against the Chargers. It was not some mighty accomplishment that got them into the playoffs - it was league parity.

Bet the Bills would take it.

[drunkernhelldawg]

Bottom line is that QB is the hardest spot to settle in the NFL. Anybody who can do it will be doing if for somebody. NFL teams are not going to toss a viable prospect aside for non football considerations.

[DudyDawg]

Bet the Bills would take it.

They also have a guy named Tom Brady to deal with, so backing into the playoffs isn't very likely.

[wasabaka]

Wow, some of you people have gone full retard in this thread. Take your tin foil hats off, people. He couldn't hack it in the league because he couldn't complete passes accurately or consistently. He was a terrible passer in a passing league. Period. End of story.

[Dawg61]

Wow, some of you people have gone full retard in this thread. Take your tin foil hats off, people. He couldn't hack it in the league because he couldn't complete passes accurately or consistently. He was a terrible passer in a passing league. Period. End of story.

The following year after taking the Broncos to the playoffs and beating the Steelers Tebow threw 8 passes. He completed 6 of them for 39 yards. He rushed for 102 yds. That's it. He never got another chance.

[wasabaka]

The following year after taking the Broncos to the playoffs and beating the Steelers Tebow threw 8 passes. He completed 6 of them for 39 yards. He rushed for 102 yds. That's it. He never got another chance.

https://media.giphy.com/media/igR5863TALcSk/giphy.gif

[IMissJack]

Watson has thrown a ton of ints this year, that may be part of the ranking, I believe 2nd highest in D1. If he continues to thrown INTs tonight, Bama will make them pay. He has to take care of the ball tonight.

[Percho]

Couldn't resist to get that Tebow jab in huh. Tebow is way better than that garbage Oakland trotted out to play QB. Texans too. Tebow should be in the NFL right now as a QB and it's a disgusting black eye on our society and NFL that he is not.

I agree, The man is a winner and a leader.

[Dawg61]

Watson has thrown a ton of ints this year, that may be part of the ranking, I believe 2nd highest in D1. If he continues to thrown INTs tonight, Bama will make them pay. He has to take care of the ball tonight.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JYfS0BwVfmo/UUNmnLZD9pI/AAAAAAAACyo/E5u1Zr929aE/s800/tonyEyebrow.gif

[ShotgunDawg]

Like I was saying

#takewatson

Don't over think this sh*t