After even longer to calm down and reflect

[thf24]

I'm starting to renege on the idea that Saturday definitively proved Dak should start and Tyler should be benched. Do I think that Mullen's offense is limited with Tyler at QB and that he'd be more comfortable and open-ended with a mobile QB? Yes, no doubt. But then I started to think about the fact that Tyler only got five or six plays before taking the first hit to the head, and he looked awfully sharp before that. I think that while most of us acknowledged that he wasn't the same after that hit, we discounted it as being a significant factor in his performance since the offense seemed to have the same problems that it had late last year. I now think that we ought to give Tyler another chance to play significant snaps at full capacity and get a better chance to show what he's learned since last season before writing him off as ineffective and calling for the younger, less experienced QB that displayed some glaring issues of his own on Saturday. There's no doubt in my mind that at full potential, Dak should run our offense, but I need a little more evidence that TR doesn't give us the best chance to win at the current point in time, even with the obvious limitations he puts on our offense. If he's just learned to be more decisive and get rid of the ball a little quicker (which he seemed to in the short sample of plays before taking the first hit Saturday), combined with having multiple athletic receivers with better ability to get open, then I think this year's offense can/will be much more effective.

That somewhat brings up another point I've been wanting to discuss. Many of you have been stressing a necessity to go back to a physical, run-first offense. I understand the physical part and would like see more JRob and use of fullbacks/wings no matter what we do, but as for being unconditionally run-first... why? I've always thought with any style of offense, you should be pass-first ideally, and run-first out of necessity. I noticed multiple people in the last few days saying that Dak wasn't completely effective when he came in the game because he was put into a situation where he had to pass to have a chance at coming back. What guarantee do we have that we won't get in a hole with him starting and running a physical, run-first offense, taking us completely out of the game? If we have the option, I think being pass first and using it to set up the run gives us the best chance to win, not vice versa. I think by next year Dak will be just as effective as a passer as he is a runner, but this year, I'd rather have the guy with the ability to make all the throws. That's why I'd like Tyler to get one more chance to show he can be effective for us this year despite the limitations. If at halftime of the Auburn game, we're seeing the same old problems, then I hope we put Dak in and start him the rest of the season.

[CadaverDawg]

Because our team is built for a run first offense. We have a strong OLine, great RB's and a solid dual threat QB. Our WR's are talented, but young. I think most people say that we need to be a more "run heavy" offense with Dak....not necessarily "run first". So I wouldn't look too deep into that terminology.

If our defense is as strong as we think, having Dak and a good run game will allow us to shorten the game against good opponents, and allow us to utilize our defense and our ground game to win the field position battle, and to win the time of possession battle, thus wearing out opposing defenses. Dak is not going to win us any games by airing it out all game....he's not that type of QB. At least, not this year anyway. He is a better passing Chris Relf in most of our eyes. So he will be best utilized in the zone read, option, and play action pass game. You have to establish a run game to work the play action pass effectively, or otherwise it will be up to Dak to throw it into tight windows against pass coverages and that is not his forte at this point. His passing thrives when he can use play action to free up receivers when defenses are cheating up and loading the box to stop the run.

Just my opinion anyway

[ShotgunDawg]

I'm starting to renege on the idea that Saturday definitively proved Dak should start and Tyler should be benched. Do I think that Mullen's offense is limited with Tyler at QB and that he'd be more comfortable and open-ended with a mobile QB? Yes, no doubt. But then I started to think about the fact that Tyler only got five or six plays before taking the first hit to the head, and he looked awfully sharp before that. I think that while most of us acknowledged that he wasn't the same after that hit, we discounted it as being a significant factor in his performance since the offense seemed to have the same problems that it had late last year. I now think that we ought to give Tyler another chance to play significant snaps at full capacity and get a better chance to show what he's learned since last season before writing him off as ineffective and calling for the younger, less experienced QB that displayed some glaring issues of his own on Saturday. There's no doubt in my mind that at full potential, Dak should run our offense, but I need a little more evidence that TR doesn't give us the best chance to win at the current point in time, even with the obvious limitations he puts on our offense. If he's just learned to be more decisive and get rid of the ball a little quicker (which he seemed to in the short sample of plays before taking the first hit Saturday), combined with having multiple athletic receivers with better ability to get open, then I think this year's offense can/will be much more effective.

That somewhat brings up another point I've been wanting to discuss. Many of you have been stressing a necessity to go back to a physical, run-first offense. I understand the physical part and would like see more JRob and use of fullbacks/wings no matter what we do, but as for being unconditionally run-first... why? I've always thought with any style of offense, you should be pass-first ideally, and run-first out of necessity. I noticed multiple people in the last few days saying that Dak wasn't completely effective when he came in the game because he was put into a situation where he had to pass to have a chance at coming back. What guarantee do we have that we won't get in a hole with him starting and running a physical, run-first offense, taking us completely out of the game? If we have the option, I think being pass first and using it to set up the run gives us the best chance to win, not vice versa. I think by next year Dak will be just as effective as a passer as he is a runner, but this year, I'd rather have the guy with the ability to make all the throws. That's why I'd like Tyler to get one more chance to show he can be effective for us this year despite the limitations. If at halftime of the Auburn game, we're seeing the same old problems, then I hope we put Dak in and start him the rest of the season.

You make some decent points, but thats why we are just going to see how Dak plays this weekend. If Dak doesn't play well this weekend, then I agree maybe we should just stick with Tyler. But at the same time, if Dak plays well on Saturday and shows command of the offense, then we would be stupid to not start him at Auburn. Then if he isn't effective in the first half against Auburn, then maybe we should go to Tyler in the second half.

Like Cadaver, I agree that the offense is more suited to Dak than to Tyler. I think an idiot could figure that out at this point, but, at this point, I just want the coaches to play the hot hand. We have talent and a good defense. We can win games, and, possibly pull an upset or two, if our offense is clicking.

What we don't want to hear is: 1. We are playing Tyler because he is senior 2. We are playing Tyler because he broke school records 3. We are playing Tyler because he was a highly recruited QB 4. We are playing Tyler because he is the best throwing QB in MSU history.

I WANT MSU TO PLAY THE QB THAT GIVES US THE BEST CHANCE TO WIN. That is my only concern. I don't care about records, I don't care about how it looks, and I don't care if the media hates us because we playing boring football. I only care about winning, and want us to play the QB that offers the best chance to do that.

Making decisions about players becomes much much easier when you remove the name from their jerseys and only focus of what is productive in winning games. Decisions become much clearer that way, and I think if you do that in this situation, you will come up with the same conclusion many of us have. Remove all exterior factors and make decision that only have to do with getting first downs , scoring points, and winning games.


Our fan base has grown wiser over the past few years in understanding 1. Who is MSU is 2. What we have to do to be successful 3. What type of players we have to recruit to do that.

[Bully13]

Im not sold on the "we have a strong ol"

[State82]

Because our team is built for a run first offense. We have a strong OLine, great RB's and a solid dual threat QB. Our WR's are talented, but young. I think most people say that we need to be a more "run heavy" offense with Dak....not necessarily "run first". So I wouldn't look too deep into that terminology.

If our defense is as strong as we think, having Dak and a good run game will allow us to shorten the game against good opponents, and allow us to utilize our defense and our ground game to win the field position battle, and to win the time of possession battle, thus wearing out opposing defenses. Dak is not going to win us any games by airing it out all game....he's not that type of QB. At least, not this year anyway. He is a better passing Chris Relf in most of our eyes. So he will be best utilized in the zone read, option, and play action pass game. You have to establish a run game to work the play action pass effectively, or otherwise it will be up to Dak to throw it into tight windows against pass coverages and that is not his forte at this point. His passing thrives when he can use play action to free up receivers when defenses are cheating up and loading the box to stop the run.

Just my opinion anyway

"Run heavy" as opposed to "run first" is a very good point. That's what it should be defined as.

[HancockCountyDog]

Im not sold on the "we have a strong ol"

I agree, I watched the game again last night, and they played terrible.

[msstatelp1]

Regardless of what Dak does, I think you have to start TR if he's healthy. You've got to give him the chance to prove that he's ineffective (and not hurt) before pulling him from the starter role. If you move him to the backup role without giving him a chance, then you're basically telling future recruits that if you come to State, put in your time to earn the starting position, then get hurt, you're done.

[thf24]

Regardless of what Dak does, I think you have to start TR if he's healthy. You've got to give him the chance to prove that he's ineffective (and not hurt) before pulling him from the starter role. If you move him to the backup role without giving him a chance, then you're basically telling future recruits that if you come to State, put in your time to earn the starting position, then get hurt, you're done.

This was pretty much my point with this thread. We know Dak fits the offense better, and we know we're (seemingly) built to run better than pass. But we can't take the chance that Tyler might actually give us the better chance to win by benching him now, when he's only gotten six plays at 100% this year to show us he's improved enough to be run an effective passing offense. The recruiting part is a good point too. If he looks lost against Auburn, then pull him and start the Dak era.

[Martianlander]

On winning big games TR hasn't been effective for 3 years. I'm sure he's a good person but he can't lead the team to victory in the big games. I'm not saying demote him but give Dak some snaps before we're three touchdowns behind and his running game is virtually taken away.

[Coach34]

Regardless of what Dak does, I think you have to start TR if he's healthy. You've got to give him the chance to prove that he's ineffective (and not hurt) before pulling him from the starter role. If you move him to the backup role without giving him a chance, then you're basically telling future recruits that if you come to State, put in your time to earn the starting position, then get hurt, you're done.

Alabama- 0 points
Texas A&M- 2 1st half first downs and 13 points after the game was out of hand
LSU- 10 points
Ole Miss- 10 points
NW- 4 INT's to give the game away
Ok State- 3 points and another shitty performance

I think we would be telling recruits that we wont settle for QB's not getting the job done...and isn't Dak a recruit also? Playing Dak would show recruits that you wont have to sit behind upperclassmen that arent performing

[thf24]

Ok State- 3 points and another shitty performance

So are we not cutting him any slack for the possibility of a mild concussion after the early first hit to the head? Has that been ruled out? If so and he was 100% up to the point where he was actually knocked out of the game, then yeah, this thread is void and he should be benched in favor of Dak. If not, and he only got a few snaps in at 100%, how do we know he hasn't gotten better with his reads and decision making since those bad games you listed from last year?

[msstate7]

Alabama- 0 points
Texas A&M- 2 1st half first downs and 13 points after the game was out of hand
LSU- 10 points
Ole Miss- 10 points
NW- 4 INT's to give the game away
Ok State- 3 points and another shitty performance

I think we would be telling recruits that we wont settle for QB's not getting the job done...and isn't Dak a recruit also? Playing Dak would show recruits that you wont have to sit behind upperclassmen that arent performing

Good post

[msstate7]

Alabama- 0 points
Texas A&M- 2 1st half first downs and 13 points after the game was out of hand
LSU- 10 points
Ole Miss- 10 points
NW- 4 INT's to give the game away
Ok State- 3 points and another shitty performance

I think we would be telling recruits that we wont settle for QB's not getting the job done...and isn't Dak a recruit also? Playing Dak would show recruits that you wont have to sit behind upperclassmen that arent performing

Do you think recruits are watching OM's true freshmen play and getting upset bc they unseated some upperclassmen? I don't think so. I think recruits see an opportunity for early playing time. It should be player that benefits team the most

[Todd4State]

Im not sold on the "we have a strong ol"

I'm not either. Our tackles absolutely suck. I'm not sure of the solution there, but the first thing I would do is bring Tobias Smith out of retirement after Alcorn and hope that he holds up somehow. I'd try to rotate Damien Robinson in at LT and maybe play Justin Malone at RT when he gets back or vice versa if it works better. I'd also have Ben Beckwith playing a LOT more at guard as well.

[ShotgunDawg]

So are we not cutting him any slack for the possibility of a mild concussion after the early first hit to the head? Has that been ruled out? If so and he was 100% up to the point where he was actually knocked out of the game, then yeah, this thread is void and he should be benched in favor of Dak. If not, and he only got a few snaps in at 100%, how do we know he hasn't gotten better with his reads and decision making since those bad games you listed from last year?

I don't know how any of us can answer whether or not he was competent after being hit. If he wasn't then thats another strike against him for staying in the game when he was hurting his team in doing so. That would be pretty selfish don't you think?

[CadaverDawg]

I'm not either. Our tackles absolutely suck. I'm not sure of the solution there, but the first thing I would do is bring Tobias Smith out of retirement after Alcorn and hope that he holds up somehow. I'd try to rotate Damien Robinson in at LT and maybe play Justin Malone at RT when he gets back or vice versa if it works better. I'd also have Ben Beckwith playing a LOT more at guard as well.

I disagree. They MAY not be as good as I think they are....but when everyone in the stands is calling out the plays before we run them, it's not very likely that the OLine is going to hold back the defense that knows what we are running. No creativity by our OC's and terrible audibles by Russell make it hard for e OL to prove anything in my opinion. But I guess we'll find out in the coming weeks

[thf24]

I don't know how any of us can answer whether or not he was competent after being hit. If he wasn't then thats another strike against him for staying in the game when he was hurting his team in doing so. That would be pretty selfish don't you think?

Good point, I was going to mention that but forgot. Yeah, if he was concussed then he should have taken himself out. Then again, maybe he thought he'd be selfish and abandoning his teammates by taking himself out. Maybe he couldn't tell anything was wrong himself. All I know is he looked great on his first three passes, and then not the same after the hit. You're right though, no telling if he was 100% or not, and if he wasn't, a senior leader should know to take himself out.

[Bothrops]

Does Tyler even want to play anymore? I definitely think he wanted out of that game. Frustration can take a toll on your proficiency. Been there.

[PassInterference]

Alabama- 0 points
Texas A&M- 2 1st half first downs and 13 points after the game was out of hand
LSU- 10 points
Ole Miss- 10 points
NW- 4 INT's to give the game away
Ok State- 3 points and another shitty performance

I think we would be telling recruits that we wont settle for QB's not getting the job done...and isn't Dak a recruit also? Playing Dak would show recruits that you wont have to sit behind upperclassmen that arent performing

Exactly.

I have seen recruits and friends of recruits on Twitter saying Russell sucks.

I'm not sure I disagree. Russell has been bad several games in a row now. He seems to play well until he gets hurt, intimidated, or both.

PI is back in town. I'm sure y'all have discussed the game to death. I'll just say this and I'm ready to move on

http://skyranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Crying-Baby1.jpg

[chef dixon]

Do you think recruits are watching OM's true freshmen play and getting upset bc they unseated some upperclassmen? I don't think so. I think recruits see an opportunity for early playing time. It should be player that benefits team the most

You are exactly right. The higher profile recruits, aka the guys you want, aren't thinking about putting in their dues and playing as upperclassmen. They want opportunities to make immediate contributions and showcase their skills for the next level. This move says nothing negative towards potential recruits, at least the type we have trouble getting.

[PMDawg]

I don't know how any of us can answer whether or not he was competent after being hit. If he wasn't then thats another strike against him for staying in the game when he was hurting his team in doing so. That would be pretty selfish don't you think?

I'm not taking up for Tyler, because he played poorly no matter what the cause. But have you ever had a concussion? It's not that easy to realize what's happened, especially if its your first one. One of my HS teammates that went on to start 4 years D1 and for the redskins a bit got concussed playing CB his So year of HS. He also played WR. So, on defense, he lined up opposite the wide out and told the official he was "off the ball". He was about to run a route right past the WR he was supposed to play in man coverage. Luckily the ref called time and got our coaches to take him out. The guy couldn't understand why. It's possible Tyler had no clue. I'm just playing devils advocate, I have no idea. No matter what kind of QB he is, he comes across as a good guy so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[archdog]

"Telling future recruits" I don't buy this. Teams change their QB's all the time. IF you win, no one cares about the other guy. You earn a starting position by being better than everyone else by doing what you are asked to do. There is no time table on this. That is some participation trophy BS that I hope Mullen and the rest of the bulldogs see as just that, BS.

Results on the field are all that matter in college football. If recruits are the best they start as freshmen, no time table.

[FISHDAWG]

+ 4 ... as a former left side OT (high school) I tend to watch the OL performance and what I saw against osu wasn't a good showing

[thunderclap]

I'm confused as to why Tyler gives us the better chance at winning. I've known plenty of guys with the ability to make all the throws, but ability doesn't equal production.

It's over. Tyler has been struggling since mid-2012. It's time to go back to what we ran with the most success with a QB made for that system.