This is what it comes down to for me

[lamont]

1. We have enough talent to compete in the SEC West and Dan Mullen cant get them to play or get the job done anymore.

2. We dont have enough talent to compete in the SEC West in Year 8 of Mullen's tenure. Who is to blame for that?


Why would a new coach need 4-5 years to rebuild if we have talent?
If we dont have the talent to compete in the West- why do we continue to stay with the guy that cant get the talent on campus anymore after 8 years leading the program?


These last 11 games will answer alot of questions

[Dawgfan77]

Folks need to understand this is not going to turn around. Look at our last three classes . Mullen has F@#ked us .... it's not going to get better. Time to SEAL this tenure

[Op4isabitch]

I agree that this will likely be Dans last year unless he has a miracle turn around over the last 11 or 12 games.

Stricklin and Co better be whittling down their list to some high profile finalists.

[BayouDawg]

Yea it's not a good situation. We don't even have a full 85 on scholarship. Some people are wanting us to go out of state more for recruits while we can't even lock down the Golden Triangle. The writing was on the wall last year but many of us, including myself, tried to ignore it. It's time we call a spade a spade. We are going in the wrong direction and fast.

[Dawgfan77]

You don't lose to south Alabama in year 8 and recover.

[Liverpooldawg]

1. We have enough talent to compete in the SEC West and Dan Mullen cant get them to play or get the job done anymore.

2. We dont have enough talent to compete in the SEC West in Year 8 of Mullen's tenure. Who is to blame for that?


Why would a new coach need 4-5 years to rebuild if we have talent?
If we dont have the talent to compete in the West- why do we continue to stay with the guy that cant get the talent on campus anymore after 8 years leading the program?


These last 11 games will answer alot of questions

Hopefully this thread mark II will go equally as well for you. You should heed your own last sentence when you locked mark I.

[ILOATHEBears]

I agree that this will likely be Dans last year unless he has a miracle turn around over the last 11 or 12 games.

Stricklin and Co better be whittling down their list to some high profile finalists.

So let's play with this. Who from this list are possible candidates:
Kyle Whittingham
Lane Kiffin
Mack Brown
Les Miles...figure he is done, needs a good OC however
Larry Fedora
Petrino

Throw others out I'm just throwing head coach experience

[TrapGame]

This is what it comes down to for me:

Boom is a retard and if he schools Mullen Saturday we need to move on.

[lamont]

You don't lose to south Alabama in year 8 and recover.

We have to let this season play out for a reason:

In 2013- we saw a young team get better throughout the season. Young, dynamic QB. Young TB in JRob that promised hope. Young WR's in Wilson and Ross. Young DL players in Jones, AJ, and others. Young LB'ers galore. Young talented CB's.

I'm not seeing that for 2016. That promise of a team being better in 2017 isn't there. They have 11 games left to show us it's there. I don't think it is there- but we 11 games to see if it is

[Dawgfan77]

Jeff Brohm
Scotty Montgomery
Sonny Dyke's
Matt wells

[lamont]

So let's play with this. Who from this list are possible candidates:
Kyle Whittingham
Lane Kiffin
Mack Brown
Les Miles...figure he is done, needs a good OC however
Larry Fedora
Petrino

Throw others out I'm just throwing head coach experience

No chance on Petrino...Les Miles and Mack Brown are too old.

[ILOATHEBears]

This is what it comes down to for me:

Boom is a retard and if he schools Mullen Saturday we need to move on.

X1000000000

[StoneDawg]

Ole Miss paid all the recruits.

[lamont]

Ole Miss paid all the recruits.

so does Auburn, LSU, A&M, and Bama...OM just jumped the shark buying them 100K vehicles and providing them houses in Oxford

[preachermatt83]

Amen!

[STATEBALLIN]

1. We have enough talent to compete in the SEC West and Dan Mullen cant get them to play or get the job done anymore.

2. We dont have enough talent to compete in the SEC West in Year 8 of Mullen's tenure. Who is to blame for that?


Why would a new coach need 4-5 years to rebuild if we have talent?
If we dont have the talent to compete in the West- why do we continue to stay with the guy that cant get the talent on campus anymore after 8 years leading the program?


These last 11 games will answer alot of questions

I don't want a Phil Fulmer or David Cutcliff situation where we fire our best ever then scramble for 10 years to find someone equally as good. That's what it comes down to for me.

[Liverpooldawg]

Whittingham..........Yawn....IF he would take it
Kiffen.......couldn't win at USC. Trust me, I'm a USC fan big time, you don't want the GOAT.
Brown............how old is that guy?
Miles..........He is a decent coach but my LSU friends would absolutly howl with laughter
Fedora..............maybe..but would he take it? He would be gone like a shot if a better job offered. Unlike Mullen he HAS proven he will do it.
Petrino.........ain't going to happen ever, for the same reason Briles won't ever happen

If we fire Mullen, which would be pure insanity unless he goes winless this year, we will make a very similar hire to what we did when we hired Mullen, hopefully. Y'all may or may not realize this but Mullen was the highest profile hire without baggage we had ever made in any sport in the modern era. I know we offer more money now but still...it's all relative. If we do it this year look for RR/Croom mark II. If we have to FIRE Mullen ever we will make a similar hire, hopefully. Y'all are going to blast me but it is what it is. We like to pride ourselves on realism, that's a dose of realism for you. I know..Howland. The stars aligned for that one. That doesn't happen that often.

[msstate7]

This is what it comes down to for me:

Boom is a retard and if he schools Mullen Saturday we need to move on.

Speaking of boom... South Carolina went after Herman and he said no. Fuente chose VT over South Carolina. Hell even rich rod turned down South Carolina. South Carolina is in one of the coolest sec locations and in the east... We could hit a hr if we fire Mullen, but we could end up like South Carolina

[Liverpooldawg]

We have to let this season play out for a reason:

In 2013- we saw a young team get better throughout the season. Young, dynamic QB. Young TB in JRob that promised hope. Young WR's in Wilson and Ross. Young DL players in Jones, AJ, and others. Young LB'ers galore. Young talented CB's.

I'm not seeing that for 2016. That promise of a team being better in 2017 isn't there. They have 11 games left to show us it's there. I don't think it is there- but we 11 games to see if it is
Then let it play out......and try to help instead keeping up and allowing the constant drumbeat.

[msstate7]

Then let it play out......and try to help instead keeping up and allowing the constant drumbeat.

He's playing both sides of the fence... He says let the season play out and starting new coach threads at the same time

[lamont]

I don't want a Phil Fulmer or David Cutcliff situation where we fire our best ever then scramble for 10 years to find someone equally as good. That's what it comes down to for me.

well, thats the hard part. Who says Fulmer or Cutcliffe would have started winning again? As Spiderman posted- no coach in his 4th year or later has recovered from these type of losses to sustain a program. Most times it turns out like Jackie, Chizik, etc.

[lamont]

He's playing both sides of the fence... He says let the season play out and starting new coach threads at the same time

what new coach thread did I start?

[msstate7]

what new coach thread did I start?

This one haha

May not have started it naming coaches, but almost everyone of your threads end up that way

[lamont]

Speaking of boom... South Carolina went after Herman and he said no. Fuente chose VT over South Carolina. Hell even rich rod turned down South Carolina. South Carolina is in one of the coolest sec locations and in the east... We could hit a hr if we fire Mullen, but we could end up like South Carolina

South Carolina's new HC is undefeated and has the 15th ranked recruiting class in the country. Hard to say they made a bad hire at this point

[lamont]

This one haha

May not have started it naming coaches, but almost everyone of your threads end up that way

So I didnt start a new coach thread...thanks

[Liverpooldawg]

I don't want a Phil Fulmer or David Cutcliff situation where we fire our best ever then scramble for 10 years to find someone equally as good. That's what it comes down to for me.

When you do that, that IS what it usually comes down to. It almost always does when you are seen to do it prematurely without giving the guy a chance to right the ship. It took us a LOT longer when we did it (Mullen is 2nd best actually).

[BayouDawg]

Whittingham..........Yawn....IF he would take it
Kiffen.......couldn't win at USC. Trust me, I'm a USC fan big time, you don't want the GOAT.
Brown............how old is that guy?
Miles..........He is a decent coach but my LSU friends would absolutly howl with laughter
Fedora..............maybe..but would he take it? He would be gone like a shot if a better job offered. Unlike Mullen he HAS proven he will do it.
Petrino.........ain't going to happen ever, for the same reason Briles won't ever happen

If we fire Mullen, which would be pure insanity unless he goes winless this year, we will make a very similar hire to what we did when we hired Mullen, hopefully. Y'all may or may not realize this but Mullen was the highest profile hire without baggage we had ever made in any sport in the modern era. I know we offer more money now but still...it's all relative. If we do it this year look for RR/Croom mark II. If we have to FIRE Mullen ever we will make a similar hire, hopefully. Y'all are going to blast me but it is what it is. We like to pride ourselves on realism, that's a dose of realism for you. I know..Howland. The stars aligned for that one. That doesn't happen that often.

You may very well be right. Believe me I've been trying to convince myself that it was just a bad game, an isolated incident, a brain fart. The problem is there have been signs, bad signs. No effort in recruiting, new defense coordinators every year but the same scheme and same issues, not having the team prepared for the egg bowl 2 years straight and on and on. Believe me I want bribing more that to get the 2010 Mullen back, the one that grabbed the mic before the Georgia game and was pissed off and guaranteed a W! I would love nothing more than that. It just doesn't seem like it's in the cards right now though.

[Liverpooldawg]

well, thats the hard part. Who says Fulmer or Cutcliffe would have started winning again? As Spiderman posted- no coach in his 4th year or later has recovered from these type of losses to sustain a program. Most times it turns out like Jackie, Chizik, etc.
Cutcliff won at DUKE.....in FOOTBALL.

Which time with Jackie? He DID turn it around once..........and had the best years we have had in the modern era...till MULLEN came along.

[msstate7]

South Carolina's new HC is undefeated and has the 15th ranked recruiting class in the country. Hard to say they made a bad hire at this point

Forget the fact he was abysmal at an sec powerhouse program

[preachermatt83]

No Kiffin. Please!!

[Dawgfan77]

Columbia is Jackson. No stadium on campus. Boom can cruit look at UF. But to say USCE is cool is huge stretch. Superior was there cause if Augusta not Columbia. Hell he has been up UF ass since he retired

[Liverpooldawg]

You may very well be right. Believe me I've been trying to convince myself that it was just a bad game, an isolated incident, a brain fart. The problem is there have been signs, bad signs. No effort in recruiting, new defense coordinators every year but the same scheme and same issues, not having the team prepared for the egg bowl 2 years straight and on and on. Believe me I want bribing more that to get the 2010 Mullen back, the one that grabbed the mic before the Georgia game and was pissed off and guaranteed a W! I would love nothing more than that. It just doesn't seem like it's in the cards right now though.

So 19 wins in two seasons and a #1 anking for six weeks, the LAST two seasons by the way, was a bad sign? Come on man. THINK about that. I want 2014 Mullen back, if he ever left. 2010 was nice.....but.....

[lamont]

Forget the fact he was abysmal at an sec powerhouse program

He didnt fit there- and still went to a Sugar Bowl. He is only bad hire at SC if he doesnt win games. Right now- you cant say he is a bad hire

[msstate7]

Columbia is Jackson. No stadium on campus. Boom can cruit look at UF. But to say USCE is cool is huge stretch. Superior was there cause if Augusta not Columbia. Hell he has been up UF ass since he retired

So Starkville > Columbia? Lol

[msstate7]

He didnt fit there- and still went to a Sugar Bowl. He is only bad hire at SC if he doesnt win games. Right now- you cant say he is a bad hire

Would you be happy with Les miles? He's been much more successful than boom

[Liverpooldawg]

He didnt fit there- and still went to a Sugar Bowl. He is only bad hire at SC if he doesnt win games. Right now- you cant say he is a bad hire

You can't say he is a good one either.

[lamont]

Cutcliff won at DUKE.....in FOOTBALL..

Cutcliffe still has a losing overall record at Duke...still has no bearing on what he would have done at OM. He sure didnt leave Orgeron a talented team by any means

[lamont]

Would you be happy with Les miles? He's been much more successful than boom

no- Miles is about to be fired because he refuses to change with the times.

[BayouDawg]

So 19 wins in two seasons and a #1 anking for six weeks, the LAST two seasons by the way, was a bad sign? Come on man. THINK about that. I want 2014 Mullen back, if he ever left. 2010 was nice.....but.....

If you don't think not having a full 85 on scholarship is a problem then I don't what to tell ya. This past recruiting class is gonna leave a mark. 19 wins in the last 2 years is amazing, but we did not capitalize on that #1 ranking. I'm afraid Dan thought that was his golden ticket outta here, got complacent, and overplayed his hand. Now we're at a crossroads. What happens from this point on will determine if Dan is still committed.

[Todd4State]

I don't want a Phil Fulmer or David Cutcliff situation where we fire our best ever then scramble for 10 years to find someone equally as good. That's what it comes down to for me.

Is Dan really our best ever? I still have Jackie over Dan at this point.

And I'm pretty sure we can find someone that actually wants to be here and is willing to play the upperclassmen only if we look hard enough.

[Todd4State]

well, thats the hard part. Who says Fulmer or Cutcliffe would have started winning again? As Spiderman posted- no coach in his 4th year or later has recovered from these type of losses to sustain a program. Most times it turns out like Jackie, Chizik, etc.

We have too many fans that are afraid to fail- and thus are afraid to succeed. Sort of like Dan when he coaches against Alabama or LSU. Which is probably why they are big fans of his.

[Todd4State]

Would you be happy with Les miles? He's been much more successful than boom

I think hiring Les Miles would be like a cross between Jackie Sherill winning the big games with Dan's insane ideas.

[Todd4State]

So Starkville > Columbia? Lol

What's so great about Columbia? Like someone said- it's Jackson, MS. It's your typical southern city.

Let's be honest- in the SEC the coolest town is where Vanderbilt is located.

[Todd4State]

Whittingham..........Yawn....IF he would take it
Kiffen.......couldn't win at USC. Trust me, I'm a USC fan big time, you don't want the GOAT.
Brown............how old is that guy?
Miles..........He is a decent coach but my LSU friends would absolutly howl with laughter
Fedora..............maybe..but would he take it? He would be gone like a shot if a better job offered. Unlike Mullen he HAS proven he will do it.
Petrino.........ain't going to happen ever, for the same reason Briles won't ever happen

If we fire Mullen, which would be pure insanity unless he goes winless this year, we will make a very similar hire to what we did when we hired Mullen, hopefully. Y'all may or may not realize this but Mullen was the highest profile hire without baggage we had ever made in any sport in the modern era. I know we offer more money now but still...it's all relative. If we do it this year look for RR/Croom mark II. If we have to FIRE Mullen ever we will make a similar hire, hopefully. Y'all are going to blast me but it is what it is. We like to pride ourselves on realism, that's a dose of realism for you. I know..Howland. The stars aligned for that one. That doesn't happen that often.

What do you mean Ben Howland doesn't happen often? Florida lost Spurrier then hired Zook who sucked- and then ended up with Urban Meyer. Then they ended up with BOOM who sucked and now they have McIlwain who is a good coach.

Going back to Paul Davis EVERY single coach we have hired has had at least one winning season on the field. And that was the 60's. Yep- even Charley Shira.

If you are saying the best we can do is a coach that doesn't really want to be here, can't recruit, manages his roster poorly and can't utilize his personnel because he won the Gator Bowl in 2010 and then ride our best QB in school history to 19 wins you are sorely mistaken.

[Commercecomet24]

What's so great about Columbia? Like someone said- it's Jackson, MS. It's your typical southern city.

Let's be honest- in the SEC the coolest town is where Vanderbilt is located.

Gainesville not bad.

[lamont]

What do you mean Ben Howland doesn't happen often? Florida lost Spurrier then hired Zook who sucked- and then ended up with Urban Meyer. Then they ended up with BOOM who sucked and now they have McIlwain who is a good coach.

Going back to Paul Davis EVERY single coach we have hired has had at least one winning season on the field. And that was the 60's. Yep- even Charley Shira.

If you are saying the best we can do is a coach that doesn't really want to be here, can't recruit, manages his roster poorly and can't utilize his personnel because he won the Gator Bowl in 2010 and then ride our best QB in school history to 19 wins you are sorely mistaken.

We turned down Jimbo Fisher for Croom. Jimbo Fisher. We have had great candidates for our football job anytime its been open the last 30 years. We Croomed ourselves- that didnt have to happen. Just like we could have hired better coaches than RR- but Strick was going to show everyone he knew better than everyone else. Those two hires are poor examples as to why we shouldnt change

[SPMT]

We have too many fans that are afraid to fail- and thus are afraid to succeed. Sort of like Dan when he coaches against Alabama or LSU. Which is probably why they are big fans of his.

We also have too many fans with unrealistic expectations. Mullen had us ranked number 1, very close to playoff, etc. We all would love to be Ohio State, Bama, etc but we aren't. We are better than many, many other programs though.

Two things bother me about Mullen:

1. The impression that he is not committed to MSU by virtue of his refusal to snuff out any job rumors.

2. His attitude/personality.

The second item I really could give a shit about, I have no desire to hang out with him or any other coach.

The man has done a better than average job and he's exceeded my expectations. Yes, he has recruited these players and they are inexperienced, etc. but barring any kind of colossal meltdown, he deserves another year to correct any mistakes.

I believe we could separate ourselves form other jobs of similar stature by allowing him the opportunity to fix a problem. It could make our job more attractive when compared to other jobs of similar stature when/if Mullen and State separate.

[Todd4State]

Gainesville not bad.

If you like Florida I guess. It's no Athens. They do have Caf? Risqu? near there so that's a plus.

[Liverpooldawg]

Cutcliffe still has a losing overall record at Duke...still has no bearing on what he would have done at OM. He sure didnt leave Orgeron a talented team by any means

But yet what these other coaches do elsewhere have bearing on what they would do here? Gotcha. The agenda lives.

He has had more than one winning record at DUKE......in FOOTBALL. You are just trolling for hits now. Ad revenue down? THAT I can respect.

[Liverpooldawg]

We have too many fans that are afraid to fail- and thus are afraid to succeed. Sort of like Dan when he coaches against Alabama or LSU. Which is probably why they are big fans of his.

We have too many fans that think the back up QB is almost always the best one and the NEXT coach will be the one. It's what we have ALWAYS thought so I guess we don't really know what else to do. I think that was one of the most enjoyable things about the Dak as a starter years: there was never any thought that HIS back up might be better than him.

[Commercecomet24]

If you like Florida I guess. It's no Athens. They do have Caf? Risqu? near there so that's a plus.

Lol I do like Florida but personally in the sec I like Knoxville. I go up there a lot on business and I enjoy that part of Tennessee. You're right that most of the cities these schools are in are pretty much your typical southern cities.

[Liverpooldawg]

We turned down Jimbo Fisher for Croom. Jimbo Fisher. We have had great candidates for our football job anytime its been open the last 30 years. We Croomed ourselves- that didnt have to happen. Just like we could have hired better coaches than RR- but Strick was going to show everyone he knew better than everyone else. Those two hires are poor examples as to why we shouldnt change

You know that for a fact do you? I heard AT THE TIME that he turned us down, no interest. We tried and didn't get him.

[BayouDawg]

It's gonna go down in a classic M State fashion. This year could go south quick then we have a split fanbase, recruiting goes to hell again and we don't sign enough players and wind up with less than 75 scholarship players. By the time we and Mullen part it has turned into a shitshow. We can't have a coaching change without completely letting the program go to hell first. It's just what we do.

[lamont]

But yet what these other coaches do elsewhere have bearing on what they would do here? Gotcha. The agenda lives.

He has had more than one winning record at DUKE......in FOOTBALL. You are just trolling for hits now. Ad revenue down? THAT I can respect.

Cutcliffe is 24-40 at Duke in conference. You are embarrassing yourself now...C34 told me that one of his former players coaches at Duke btw

[lamont]

You know that for a fact do you?

yes

[Liverpooldawg]

If you don't think not having a full 85 on scholarship is a problem then I don't what to tell ya. This past recruiting class is gonna leave a mark. 19 wins in the last 2 years is amazing, but we did not capitalize on that #1 ranking. I'm afraid Dan thought that was his golden ticket outta here, got complacent, and overplayed his hand. Now we're at a crossroads. What happens from this point on will determine if Dan is still committed.

A full 85 is what everybody has? In all honesty I don't know.

[Todd4State]

We also have too many fans with unrealistic expectations. Mullen had us ranked number 1, very close to playoff, etc. We all would love to be Ohio State, Bama, etc but we aren't. We are better than many, many other programs though.

Two things bother me about Mullen:

1. The impression that he is not committed to MSU by virtue of his refusal to snuff out any job rumors.

2. His attitude/personality.

The second item I really could give a shit about, I have no desire to hang out with him or any other coach.

The man has done a better than average job and he's exceeded my expectations. Yes, he has recruited these players and they are inexperienced, etc. but barring any kind of colossal meltdown, he deserves another year to correct any mistakes.

I believe we could separate ourselves form other jobs of similar stature by allowing him the opportunity to fix a problem. It could make our job more attractive when compared to other jobs of similar stature when/if Mullen and State separate.

Well what is realistic for us?

Can we occasionally upset a top 15-20 or above team let's set the mark at an average of about once every three years? Jackie showed us we could do that.

Can we consistently beat teams that we "should beat" such as the OOC games against non power five and the Kentucky's of the world? For the most part Dan to his credit showed us that we could do that.

Can we recruit at a high level at Mississippi State? Felker and Jackie showed us we could.

Now the question is can we find a coach that can do all three of those things, genuinely want to be here, play the best people, not have sacred cows on his staff and put emphasis on the Egg Bowl? I think the answer is YES!

Why can't we recruit at a top 15 level annually, win the games we are supposed to and pull off an upset an average of one every 2-3 years? I don't see any reason why we can't unless we hold on to a coach too long which is what would prolong and cause a massive rebuilding job potentially.

[BayouDawg]

A full 85 is what everybody has? In all honesty I don't know.

Yes! We've basically given ourselves probation! we had room for 25 and ended up getting 17 on campus! That's a complete lack of effort on the recruiting front!

[Todd4State]

A full 85 is what everybody has? In all honesty I don't know.

Yes. And your boy has us at 78 allegedly. And that includes scholarships given to walk-ons.

Dan basically put us on probation for no reason.

[Liverpooldawg]

What do you mean Ben Howland doesn't happen often? Florida lost Spurrier then hired Zook who sucked- and then ended up with Urban Meyer. Then they ended up with BOOM who sucked and now they have McIlwain who is a good coach.

Going back to Paul Davis EVERY single coach we have hired has had at least one winning season on the field. And that was the 60's. Yep- even Charley Shira.

If you are saying the best we can do is a coach that doesn't really want to be here, can't recruit, manages his roster poorly and can't utilize his personnel because he won the Gator Bowl in 2010 and then ride our best QB in school history to 19 wins you are sorely mistaken.

If you think that we have equal stature to Florida as a program then........well.

Rode the best QB in school history? YES..... THANK YOU. Do you think Dak would have been here without Mullen?

Are you REALLY comparing Schira to Mullen? Good lord you have gone off the deep end. Mullen has done what he has done here in what WILL go down in history as the Golden Age of SEC football, ESP SEC West football.

[Really Clark?]

well, thats the hard part. Who says Fulmer or Cutcliffe would have started winning again? As Spiderman posted- no coach in his 4th year or later has recovered from these type of losses to sustain a program. Most times it turns out like Jackie, Chizik, etc.

That's not true actually on the no coach has recovered. Frank Beamer did and eventually had an 8 year 10+ win stretch then again years later during that stretch. The following year he won 11 games again. Gary Pinkle did in his 5th year before his big run at MO. Mike Riley did and only won 3 games the year it happened losing to a FCS school. He won 9 the next year and now is at Nebraska. Mike Price did in back to back years, his 11th & 12th seasons, losing to Idaho (a three year stretch where he won 3,3,4) then rolled off back to back 10 win seasons again. Then gets hired by Alabama before that job got "stripped" away. There are others who have had bad losses and bounced back. Some even stronger runs before that time.

[Liverpooldawg]

Yes. And your boy has us at 78 allegedly. And that includes scholarships given to walk-ons.

Dan basically put us on probation for no reason.

My boy? So the winningest coach here since Allyn McKeen in the freaking 1930s-40s isn't good enough to be your boy is he? Interesting that is.

So we are 7 short, allegedly. What were the reasons for this? Do you even know? Be SPECIFIC to the players, not some generic Dan sucks stuff.

[Todd4State]

We have too many fans that think the back up QB is almost always the best one and the NEXT coach will be the one. It's what we have ALWAYS thought so I guess we don't really know what else to do. I think that was one of the most enjoyable things about the Dak as a starter years: there was never any thought that HIS back up might be better than him.

I've never said that our next coach will be the greatest coach in MSU history ever. I have said that when a coach wants to leave and doesn't want to be here that it's best to let him go despite what he has done in the past. That applies to pretty much all professions. That's why I had no problem saying Polk should have gone back in the day as well and I would say that has turned out well. That only leads to complacency and eventually if we hang on to a coach like that too long we have a massive rebuilding job. That's why as an AD you have to SEE the warning signs and act on them. And Dan has shown multiple over the past really three years.

[Liverpooldawg]

That's not true actually on the no coach has recovered. Frank Beamer did and eventually had an 8 year 10+ win stretch then again years later during that stretch. The following year he won 11 games again. Gary Pinkle did in his 5th year before his big run at MO. Mike Riley did and only won 3 games the year it happened losing to a FCS school. He won 9 the next year and now is at Nebraska. Mike Price did in back to back years, his 11th & 12th seasons, losing to Idaho (a three year stretch where he won 3,3,4) then rolled off back to back 10 win seasons again. Then gets hired by Alabama before that job got "stripped" away. There are others who have had bad losses and bounced back. Some even stronger runs before that time.

Don't confuse him with actual facts.

[BayouDawg]

That's not true actually on the no coach has recovered. Frank Beamer did and eventually had an 8 year 10+ win stretch then again years later during that stretch. The following year he won 11 games again. Gary Pinkle did in his 5th year before his big run at MO. Mike Riley did and only won 3 games the year it happened losing to a FCS school. He won 9 the next year and now is at Nebraska. Mike Price did in back to back years, his 11th & 12th seasons, losing to Idaho (a three year stretch where he won 3,3,4) then rolled off back to back 10 win seasons again. Then gets hired by Alabama before that job got "stripped" away. There are others who have had bad losses and bounced back. Some even stronger runs before that time.

Those coaches probably didn't self Impose probation by not signing enough players. This past years recruiting class is gonna bite us in the ass big time. We need to sign probably around 33 to be able to have close to 85 next year. That's gonna make our roster really unbalanced going forward and we'll be right back in this kind of mess in 5 years.

[Liverpooldawg]

I've never said that our next coach will be the greatest coach in MSU history ever. I have said that when a coach wants to leave and doesn't want to be here that it's best to let him go despite what he has done in the past. That applies to pretty much all professions. That's why I had no problem saying Polk should have gone back in the day as well and I would say that has turned out well. That only leads to complacency and eventually if we hang on to a coach like that too long we have a massive rebuilding job. That's why as an AD you have to SEE the warning signs and act on them. And Dan has shown multiple over the past really three years.

Other than the rumors started up the road how do you KNOW he doesn't want to be here? You DON'T. Last year the only factual thing was MIAMI, and they initiated the contact, not Mullen. You are just repeating things that started as pure rumor that somehow became gospel. We all know who had been starting that crap since the first time we beat them under Mullen. Why do their work for them? They do it well enough with out "our" help.

[Liverpooldawg]

Those coaches probably didn't self Impose probation by not signing enough players. This past years recruiting class is gonna bite us in the ass big time. We need to sign probably around 33 to be able to have close to 85 next year. That's gonna make our roster really inbalanced going forward and we'll be right back in this kind of mess in 5 years.

We have signed enough to be above 85. Give me some specifics on why those guys left.

[dawgday166]

Those coaches probably didn't self Impose probation by not signing enough players. This past years recruiting class is gonna bite us in the ass big time. We need to sign probably around 33 to be able to have close to 85 next year. That's gonna make our roster really inbalanced going forward and we'll be right back in this kind of mess in 5 years.

How many de-commits did we have last year. 15 or 16 or some outrageous number?

ETA: This a little over 1 year after the #1 run and 1 year after the DawgFam15 class (which I thought was a pretty good class).

[Todd4State]

If you think that we have equal stature to Florida as a program then........well.

Rode the best QB in school history? YES..... THANK YOU. Do you think Dak would have been here without Mullen?

Are you REALLY comparing Schira to Mullen? Good lord you have gone off the deep end. Mullen has done what he has done here in what WILL go down in history as the Golden Age of SEC football, ESP SEC West football.

Florida was just an example. South Carolina fired Brad Scott and then upgraded to Lou Holtz who had success there for a little while. And then after Holtz they got Spurrier. Muschamp might be the first bad football hire they have made in a couple of decades.

Arkansas went from Danny Ford who won the SEC West there to Nutt who had success for awhile and then landed Petrino who was a home run before his scandal and even after one down year Bielema has done pretty well for them so far.

It goes both ways with Dak. Do you know who Alcorn State's coach was when they had Steve McNair? Does that make him awesome as a coach because he had the best player in their school history?

I'm not comparing Dan to Shira at all. I'm pointing out that even our BAD hires had at least some success here. Meaning that if we make a bad hire we're still likely to go to at least a Liberty Bowl- see Croom. And if we make a good hire we can potentially exceed what we are doing now. In other words there is no reason to fear firing Dan. I fear holding on to Dan too long MUCH more than I do making a bad hire.

[Todd4State]

That's not true actually on the no coach has recovered. Frank Beamer did and eventually had an 8 year 10+ win stretch then again years later during that stretch. The following year he won 11 games again. Gary Pinkle did in his 5th year before his big run at MO. Mike Riley did and only won 3 games the year it happened losing to a FCS school. He won 9 the next year and now is at Nebraska. Mike Price did in back to back years, his 11th & 12th seasons, losing to Idaho (a three year stretch where he won 3,3,4) then rolled off back to back 10 win seasons again. Then gets hired by Alabama before that job got "stripped" away. There are others who have had bad losses and bounced back. Some even stronger runs before that time.

But none of those were in the SEC. It's a lot easier to recover from losing to a South Alabama when you have Virginia Tech's Big East schedule and you have 3-4 Rutgers built in to go along with the 2-3 soft OOC games.

[Commercecomet24]

You guys want some gloves? Marquess of Queensbury rules apply.

[Liverpooldawg]

How many de-commits did we have last year. 15 or 16 or some outrageous number.

You can't sign more than 25. I still haven't seen what the average is in D1 other than Todd saying it's 85, the maximum. That may be the case, I really don't know. Where are y'all getting that we only have 78? I think I saw where some internet blog said it. it might be true, but SO much complete crap gets accepted as gospel now I want to see real sources.

[Liverpooldawg]

You guys want some gloves? Marquess of Queensbury rules apply.
Marquess of Queensbury now Squire...........................great movie.

[Commercecomet24]

Marquess of Queensbury now Squire...........................great movie.

Yep! You know you're stuff!

[Todd4State]

Other than the rumors started up the road how do you KNOW he doesn't want to be here? You DON'T. Last year the only factual thing was MIAMI, and they initiated the contact, not Mullen. You are just repeating things that started as pure rumor that somehow became gospel. We all know who had been starting that crap since the first time we beat them under Mullen. Why do their work for them? They do it well enough with out "our" help.

Because he clearly doesn't have the intensity that he once had. I can see it in his body language. I'm not the only one that sees it too. It's not the rumors- it's what Dan shows.

You are off the wall insane if you think others want Dan gone. Dan is doing this to HIMSELF.

[BayouDawg]

We have signed enough to be above 85. Give me some specifics on why those guys left.

Read carefully. I'm going to explain this one more time. This past year we had room for 25. That's a 2 and a 5. twenty five. We only signed 18. 25-18=7. Those guys never left. They were never here in the first place. You know why? Our coaches were too busy doin God knows what. I really don't know what they were doing. Buying Yeezys, job hunting, scrapbooking, flying kites. Whatever it was it sure as hell wasn't recruiting. I know I know. That's not Dan's fault. It's the fan's that left the game early on Saturday fault, it's because somebody was mean to Dan at Wal mart or whatever excuse you wanna come up with. The fact is this staff struck out big time this past February and it's going to leave a mark.

[Todd4State]

We have signed enough to be above 85. Give me some specifics on why those guys left.

They graduated.

[Liverpooldawg]

But none of those were in the SEC. It's a lot easier to recover from losing to a South Alabama when you have Virginia Tech's Big East schedule and you have 3-4 Rutgers built in to go along with the 2-3 soft OOC games.

Jeez...facts just don't cut it anymore. Those guys were competing against who they were competing against at their level. That's exactly what we do.

[Liverpooldawg]

They graduated.

All of them graduated did they? OUTSTANDING, if true.

[Todd4State]

You can't sign more than 25. I still haven't seen what the average is in D1 other than Todd saying it's 85, the maximum. That may be the case, I really don't know. Where are y'all getting that we only have 78? I think I saw where some internet blog said it. it might be true, but SO much complete crap gets accepted as gospel now I want to see real sources.

You can actually come pretty close to figuring it out if you count who is left from our past signing classes and then add a few educated guesses- starting kicker has one since Cooke was a signee and we know Chairs and Josiah Philips have one as well.

Most D-I teams that are not on probation use all 85 or pretty close to it.

[Really Clark?]

But none of those were in the SEC. It's a lot easier to recover from losing to a South Alabama when you have Virginia Tech's Big East schedule and you have 3-4 Rutgers built in to go along with the 2-3 soft OOC games.

Ok. Here is another. I saving this one. JWS lost to ULM and then the run and west title happened.

ETA. The post said nothing about where or what conference. They said NO coach has ever done it. And the second time it happened to Beamer he was in the ACC.

[Liverpooldawg]

Read carefully. I'm going to explain this one more time. This past year we had room for 25. That's a 2 and a 5. twenty five. We only signed 18. 25-18=7. Those guys never left. They were never here in the first place. You know why? Our coaches were too busy doin God knows what. I really don't know what they were doing. Buying Yeezys, job hunting, scrapbooking, flying kites. Whatever it was it sure as hell wasn't recruiting. I know I know. That's not Dan's fault. It's the fan's that left the game early on Saturday fault, it's because somebody was mean to Dan at Wal mart or whatever excuse you wanna come up with. The fact is this staff struck out big time this past February and it's going to leave a mark.

Actually I remember seeing here and on 24/7 that we DIDN'T have room for 25. Not on signing day. I specifically remember that. We were never expected to sign 25 last year because we didn't have room. Paul Jones said that from the get go. You can't oversign anymore with the expectation of guys not making it. THANK OUR FRIENDS UP THE ROAD FOR THAT.

[BayouDawg]

You can't sign more than 25. I still haven't seen what the average is in D1 other than Todd saying it's 85, the maximum. That may be the case, I really don't know. Where are y'all getting that we only have 78? I think I saw where some internet blog said it. it might be true, but SO much complete crap gets accepted as gospel now I want to see real sources.

You can sign however many will get you to 85. If you have 26 open spots you can sign 26. Hell if you only 20 spots you can sign 25 as long as you process 5 current players or gray shirt 5 signees. It's the 85 limit that is important. The 25 is just a rule of thumb.

[Todd4State]

Jeez...facts just don't cut it anymore. Those guys were competing against who they were competing against at their level. That's exactly what we do.

You're telling us that it's just as easy to win six against the historically vaunted SEC West as it is to win in a league that had Temple, Rutgers, Syracuse, and Boston College in it? Yep. No difference between Virginia Tech and those schools.

[Liverpooldawg]

Ok. Here is another. I saving this one. JWS lost to ULM and then the run and west title happened.

Yep.

[Tbonewannabe]

A full 85 is what everybody has? In all honesty I don't know.

Not sure about everybody but Saban regularly puts people on medical scholarship to process them to make room.

[Liverpooldawg]

You can sign however many will get you to 85. If you have 26 open spots you can sign 26. Hell if you only 20 spots you can sign 25 as long as you process 5 current players or gray shirt 5 signees. It's the 85 limit that is important. The 25 is just a rule of thumb.

NO you can't. Not in the SEC.

[Really Clark?]

Those coaches probably didn't self Impose probation by not signing enough players. This past years recruiting class is gonna bite us in the ass big time. We need to sign probably around 33 to be able to have close to 85 next year. That's gonna make our roster really unbalanced going forward and we'll be right back in this kind of mess in 5 years.

Well research and find why it happened to those teams. And the post had noting to do with any of that. It was that it has never been done. Period. That's not true.

[BayouDawg]

Actually I remember seeing here and on 24/7 that we DIDN'T have room for 25. Not on signing day. I specifically remember that. We were never expected to sign 25 last year because we didn't have room. Paul Jones said that from the get go. You can't oversign anymore with the expectation of guys not making it. THANK OUR FRIENDS UP THE ROAD FOR THAT.

I remember hearing that and reading that too. That was the first warning signs of a shitty class. We had room for 25. Steve said he expected between 21-23. We ended up with 18. Before the late additions it was 15 or 16.

[Todd4State]

Ok. Here is another. I saving this one. JWS lost to ULM and then the run and west title happened.

Four years and a completely different team and coaching staff later. He went 3-8 and then went 5-6, 7-4 and missed a bowl before the west title "happened". Jackie is an anomaly if you look at the rest of the SEC coaching norms. I'm not for having three years where we miss bowls so that we "might" have another anomaly especially when the other norms suggest we could rebuild much more quickly and have more success long term.

[Liverpooldawg]

You're telling us that it's just as easy to win six against the historically vaunted SEC West as it is to win in a league that had Temple, Rutgers, Syracuse, and Boston College in it? Yep. No difference between Virginia Tech and those schools.

I'm telling you that those guys were competing against what they were competing against...when they lost it.... and then when they regained it. It was the same level of competition. By your logic I could say their fall was even lower because of the easy competition they were playing. The net result is the same.

[DancingRabbit]

We have too many fans that think the back up QB is almost always the best one and the NEXT coach will be the one. It's what we have ALWAYS thought so I guess we don't really know what else to do. I think that was one of the most enjoyable things about the Dak as a starter years: there was never any thought that HIS back up might be better than him.

Except on this board. Do you not remember the "Checkdown Charlie" moniker that Coach34 assigned to Dak? I believe he also said Dak could learn something from Fitz about throwing the deep ball.

[Really Clark?]

You're telling us that it's just as easy to win six against the historically vaunted SEC West as it is to win in a league that had Temple, Rutgers, Syracuse, and Boston College in it? Yep. No difference between Virginia Tech and those schools.

It wasn't the second time though Todd. They lost to James Madision and still was ACC champs that year.

[Really Clark?]

Four years and a completely different team and coaching staff later. He went 3-8 and then went 5-6, 7-4 and missed a bowl before the west title "happened". Jackie is an anomaly if you look at the rest of the SEC coaching norms. I'm not for having three years where we miss bowls so that we "might" have another anomaly especially when the other norms suggest we could rebuild much more quickly and have more success long term.

I didn't set the criteria in the OP. It clearly states that NO coach after 4 years has had this bad of a loss and ever bounced back. That's what it stated and it was absolutely incorrect. Don't try and quantify it now with other criteria from that. JWS did it and others have as well.

[Todd4State]

I'm telling you that those guys were competing against what they were competing against...when they lost it.... and then when they regained it. It was the same level of competition. By your logic I could say their fall was even lower because of the easy competition they were playing. The net result is the same.

And I'm telling you it's a whole lot harder to salvage a season in the SEC after you lose to a South Alabama because the overall competition is better.

[Really Clark?]

And I'm telling you it's a whole lot harder to salvage a season in the SEC after you lose to a South Alabama because the overall competition is better.

Salvaging the season wasn't even a part of the post. It said no coach has ever had this kind of loss after year 4 and sustained the program. In some instances they had horrible seasons. In some cases they went on to a great year. But sustaining the program is beyond just this season. That's happened several times.

[Liverpooldawg]

Florida was just an example. South Carolina fired Brad Scott and then upgraded to Lou Holtz who had success there for a little while. And then after Holtz they got Spurrier. Muschamp might be the first bad football hire they have made in a couple of decades.

Arkansas went from Danny Ford who won the SEC West there to Nutt who had success for awhile and then landed Petrino who was a home run before his scandal and even after one down year Bielema has done pretty well for them so far.

It goes both ways with Dak. Do you know who Alcorn State's coach was when they had Steve McNair? Does that make him awesome as a coach because he had the best player in their school history?

I'm not comparing Dan to Shira at all. I'm pointing out that even our BAD hires had at least some success here. Meaning that if we make a bad hire we're still likely to go to at least a Liberty Bowl- see Croom. And if we make a good hire we can potentially exceed what we are doing now. In other words there is no reason to fear firing Dan. I fear holding on to Dan too long MUCH more than I do making a bad hire.

Are you SERIOUSLY advocating a Croom or Shira hire would be better than what we have with Mullen? Good lord you have lost it. Having one winning season and then REALLY sucking EVERY other season isn't success. I will agree it's all most of us alive know here..Except for JWS and Mullen. How successful are most new hires at most programs Todd?

[BayouDawg]

NO you can't. Not in the SEC.

Yep you sure can. Steve said in a boneyard not too long ago that we could take upwards of 30 this class. We signed 27 in a class about 4 years ago. A&M signed 30ish fairly recently. Now they have have all kind of loop holes about some guys counting back to the previous signing period or not counting until the next signing period. I can't even begin to try and explain all that

[Liverpooldawg]

Salvaging the season wasn't even a part of the post. It said no coach has ever had this kind of loss after year 4 and sustained the program. In some instances they had horrible seasons. In some cases they went on to a great year. But sustaining the program is beyond just this season. That's happened several times.

Exactly.

[Todd4State]

I didn't set the criteria in the OP. It clearly states that NO coach after 4 years has had this bad of a loss and ever bounced back. That's what it stated and it was absolutely incorrect. Don't try and quantify it now with other criteria from that. JWS did it and others have as well.

He would be the ONLY SEC coach to do that the last 20 YEARS. That is absolutely relevant to the discussion because that is the league we are in. If we were in the American Conference I might agree with you. But we have to play Alabama, LSU, Texas A&M with our secondary, at Ole Miss, Auburn, BYU, and Arkansas. If you can’t see the difference between that and a conference with Temple and Rutgers or even the Big 10 where they get to play Minnesota, Indiana, and Purdue I can’t help you.

[Liverpooldawg]

Yep you sure can. Steve said in a boneyard not too long ago that we could take upwards of 30 this class. We signed 27 in a class about 4 years ago. A&M signed 30ish fairly recently. Now they have have all kind of loop holes about some guys counting back to the previous signing period or not counting until the next signing period. I can't even begin to try and explain all that

You can't put more than 25 on scholarship in any one year. Nor can you ever have more than 85 total in one year.

[Liverpooldawg]

He would be the ONLY SEC coach to do that the last 20 YEARS. That is absolutely relevant to the discussion because that is the league we are in. If we were in the American Conference I might agree with you. But we have to play Alabama, LSU, Texas A&M with our secondary, at Ole Miss, Auburn, BYU, and Arkansas. If you can’t see the difference between that and a conference with Temple and Rutgers or even the Big 10 where they get to play Minnesota, Indiana, and Purdue I can’t help you.

Can you not understand that the ones in other conferences LOST against the same people that they later won against? If its harder to win in the SEC then it's also easier to lose. If it's easier to win in the Big 12 it's also harder to lose. If their winning isn't as impressive then their losing was also worse. THAT is basic math man.

[Todd4State]

Are you SERIOUSLY advocating a Croom or Shira hire would be better than what we have with Mullen? Good lord you have lost it. Having one winning season and then REALLY sucking EVERY other season isn't success. I will agree it's all most of us alive know here..Except for JWS and Mullen. How successful are most new hires at most programs Todd?

No my point went over your head again. I’m saying based on our history and the current state of our program even if we make a “bad” hire we’re still likely to have some success. You’re saying that if we fire Dan we’re going to be ruined forever. Ironically, our history doesn’t say that at all. Especially our more recent history.
Some new hires work out and some don’t. Bear Bryant was a new hire at one point. Nick Saban was a new hire at one point. Bob Davie was a new hire at one point. But you can’t be afraid of change because you are afraid it might not work. If it doesn’t work, we fire the next coach and then make the best hire that we can. Just like we did with Rick Ray- and then we landed Ben Howland.

Our program is MUCH better off not having to go through a five year rebuilding job because we held on to a coach too long.

[Really Clark?]

He would be the ONLY SEC coach to do that the last 20 YEARS. That is absolutely relevant to the discussion because that is the league we are in. If we were in the American Conference I might agree with you. But we have to play Alabama, LSU, Texas A&M with our secondary, at Ole Miss, Auburn, BYU, and Arkansas. If you can’t see the difference between that and a conference with Temple and Rutgers or even the Big 10 where they get to play Minnesota, Indiana, and Purdue I can’t help you.

Then debate it with the OP dude. I didn't set the criteria. There was no mention of what conference but everyone I listed did it in a Power 5 conference just so people like you wouldn't accuse me of using small schools. But I didn't make the post originally. And for the 3rd time the second time it happened to Beamer he was in the ACC and WON the title that year anyway. But let's just keep shrinking the sample size until it fits your criteria, which is irrelevant because that was not what I responded to. That NO coach has ever done it. Not no Power 5 coach or SEC only coach or SEC west only coach. No coach. Of course now you want no SEC coach in the last 20 years since it happened to JWS 21 years ago. Amazing how that same size fit your criteria, which doesn't have anything to do with what I responded to.

[Todd4State]

Can you not understand that the ones in other conferences LOST against the same people that they later won against? If its harder to win in the SEC then it's also easier to lose. If it's easier to win in the Big 12 it's also harder to lose. If their winning isn't as impressive then their losing was also worse. THAT is basic math man.

Yes. I am saying that the SEC is better than the Big East and Big 12. I think most college football experts and multiple metrics would agree with me too.

That’s why IF we turn it around it would be more impressive than Beamer. And why it is way more difficult to do so for Dan. He almost HAS to pull a major upset and win the rest of our reasonable winnable games to have a winning season.

[BayouDawg]

You can't put more than 25 on scholarship in any one year. Nor can you ever have more than 85 total in one year.

Dude you give me headaches. It's like arguing with a fence post. You didn't even know about the 85 limit 10 minutes ago but now you're an expert? We can sign upwards of 30 this class. I may have over simplified it in my previous post. It's not as simple as I have 30 openings I can sign 30 players. There is a 25 for lack of a better term "limit". But teams over sign every year. They use those loop holes I was taking about. A lot of the early enrolled can count back for the previous period. South Alabama had a guy that they had on the team but he won't count against the scholarship limit until next year I believe they called it blue shirting. Don't ask me how that one works that was the first I've ever heard of it. Bottom line is if you have 30 openings you can get 30 players in. It's common practice to sign over 25. Very rarely do you see people do what we did and undersign.

[Todd4State]

Then debate it with the OP dude. I didn't set the criteria. There was no mention of what conference but everyone I listed did it in a Power 5 conference just so people like you wouldn't accuse me of using small schools. But I didn't make the post originally. And for the 3rd time the second time it happened to Beamer he was in the ACC and WON the title that year anyway. But let's just keep shrinking the sample size until it fits your criteria, which is irrelevant because that was not what I responded to. That NO coach has ever done it. Not no Power 5 coach or SEC only coach or SEC west only coach. No coach. Of course now you want no SEC coach in the last 20 years since it happened to JWS 21 years ago. Amazing how that same size fit your criteria, which doesn't have anything to do with what I responded to.

I'm sure the person who wrote the OP can read my responses thank you very much. Excuse for trying to "make the criteria fit" our actual situation and the reality that we face.

[Liverpooldawg]

No my point went over your head again. I’m saying based on our history and the current state of our program even if we make a “bad” hire we’re still likely to have some success. You’re saying that if we fire Dan we’re going to be ruined forever. Ironically, our history doesn’t say that at all. Especially our more recent history.
Some new hires work out and some don’t. Bear Bryant was a new hire at one point. Nick Saban was a new hire at one point. Bob Davie was a new hire at one point. But you can’t be afraid of change because you are afraid it might not work. If it doesn’t work, we fire the next coach and then make the best hire that we can. Just like we did with Rick Ray- and then we landed Ben Howland.

Our program is MUCH better off not having to go through a five year rebuilding job because we held on to a coach too long.
I got it. I said that isn't success, not on the level of what Mullen, and to some extent, JWS has had. How many new hires at most programs will do as well as Mullen has done? You fire him too early and you insure that RR hire. We are on year 6 of that mess now. Howland has yet to do it here, and we KNOW he is a great coach.

How many Sabens and and Bear Bryants have their been Todd. The odds are VERY, VERY long that you will get one. Even longer HERE.

[Todd4State]

Dude you give me headaches. It's like arguing with a fence post. You didn't even know about the 85 limit 10 minutes ago but now you're an expert? We can sign upwards of 30 this class. I may have over simplified it in my previous post. It's not as simple as I have 30 openings I can sign 30 players. There is a 25 for lack of a better term "limit". But teams over sign every year. They use those loop holes I was taking about. A lot of the early enrolled can count back for the previous period. South Alabama had a guy that they had on the team but he won't count against the scholarship limit until next year I believe they called it blue shirting. Don't ask me how that one works that was the first I've ever heard of it. Bottom line is if you have 30 openings you can get 30 players in. It's common practice to sign over 25. Very rarely do you see people do what we did and undersign.

Blue shirting is when a player walks on the team but is on academic scholarship I believe. The catch there is the player can't be recruited by the school and other D-I one schools and he can't take an OV. That's why you don't hear about it very often.

[Todd4State]

I got it. I said that isn't success, not on the level of what Mullen, and to some extent, JWS has had. How many new hires at most programs will do as well as Mullen has done? You fire him too early and you insure that RR hire. We are on year 6 of that mess now. Howland has yet to do it here, and we KNOW he is a great coach.

How many Sabens and and Bear Bryants have their been Todd. The odds are VERY, VERY long that you will get one. Even longer HERE.

I think we can find several that are just as good or better than Dan. The worst hire we can make right now is Hudspeth. Based on that, I'm very willing to roll the dice to try to land someone like Jeff Brohm or PJ Fleck. Dan is very average as a head coach.

Your odds of finding a Saban are zero if you don't look.

[BayouDawg]

Blue shirting is when a player walks on the team but is on academic scholarship I believe. The catch there is the player can't be recruited by the school and other D-I one schools and he can't take an OV. That's why you don't hear about it very often.

I gotcha I was wondering how that worked.

[Liverpooldawg]

Dude you give me headaches. It's like arguing with a fence post. You didn't even know about the 85 limit 10 minutes ago but now you're an expert? We can sign upwards of 30 this class. I may have over simplified it in my previous post. It's not as simple as I have 30 openings I can sign 30 players. There is a 25 for lack of a better term "limit". But teams over sign every year. They use those loop holes I was taking about. A lot of the early enrolled can count back for the previous period. South Alabama had a guy that they had on the team but he won't count against the scholarship limit until next year I believe they called it blue shirting. Don't ask me how that one works that was the first I've ever heard of it. Bottom line is if you have 30 openings you can get 30 players in. It's common practice to sign over 25. Very rarely do you see people do what we did and undersign.

I didn't know about the 85 limit? I remember when they PASSED that man. I bet you don't. If you have 30 open scholarships you can only fill 25 of them in one year. You still haven't answered, or attempted to answer, exactly why we are in that shape. We undersigned last year because we did NOT have enough open spots at the time. Paul Jones kept telling people that over and over last year leading up to signing day. You might actually have a good reasons to be angry, but undersigning last year isn't one of them.

[Liverpooldawg]

I think we can find several that are just as good or better than Dan. The worst hire we can make right now is Hudspeth. Based on that, I'm very willing to roll the dice to try to land someone like Jeff Brohm or PJ Fleck. Dan is very average as a head coach.

Your odds of finding a Saban are zero if you don't look.

Your evidence for this? Your odds of finding a Saben are almost as bad if you DO look. Dan is NOT average here. He is well above our average, and that is how you have to judge him. That means he is a well above average coach.

by the way, when you roll the dice, the odds are very much NOT in you favor. Of course compulsive gamblers always think that NEXT throw will be the winner. That's what we have always done.

[Really Clark?]

I'm sure the person who wrote the OP can read my responses thank you very much. Excuse for trying to "make the criteria fit" our actual situation and the reality that we face.

And they will tell you it made no mention of conference.

[InTheIttaBenaHotSun]

So let's play with this. Who from this list are possible candidates:
Kyle Whittingham
Lane Kiffin
Mack Brown
Les Miles...figure he is done, needs a good OC however
Larry Fedora
Petrino

Throw others out I'm just throwing head coach experience


Don't know who it'll be or when it'll be (next year?, two years from now?...maybe four years from now?). If we have a new coach next year I don't think it'll be any of the above guys.

[BayouDawg]

I didn't know about the 85 limit? I remember when they PASSED that man. I bet you don't. If you have 30 open scholarships you can only fill 25 of them in one year. You still haven't answered, or attempted to answer, exactly why we are in that shape. We undersigned last year because we did NOT have enough open spots at the time. Paul Jones kept telling people that over and over last year leading up to signing day. You might actually have a good reasons to be angry, but undersigning last year isn't one of them.

We only have 78 on scholarship. We didn't sign enough last year. Why do you think we were still signing people in June? Trying to get bodies in. We only had like 16 before the late signees. 2 of our signees didn't qualify so I do give the coaches a pass on that. Bottom line is we struck out big time. Even if we do sign enough to get to 85 this year our classes will be extremely out of balance. Our staff really mismanaged the roster.
ETA: upon further examination our roster problems seem to have started with the 13 class. That class seemed good on paper but there are several that aren't on the team anymore. That class is also where our upperclassmen came from. While we undersigned some this past year. This problem didn't happen over night.

[InTheIttaBenaHotSun]

Gainesville not bad.

Been to every SEC town except College Station and Columbia, MO. Give me Athens, GA. Music, women, bars/restaurants, great university and the town isn't too big or too small.

[Lance Harbor]

Speaking of boom... South Carolina went after Herman and he said no. Fuente chose VT over South Carolina. Hell even rich rod turned down South Carolina. South Carolina is in one of the coolest sec locations and in the east... We could hit a hr if we fire Mullen, but we could end up like South Carolina

That place is not far from being the cesspool that is Jackson.

[SDDawg]

1. We have enough talent to compete in the SEC West and Dan Mullen cant get them to play or get the job done anymore.

2. We dont have enough talent to compete in the SEC West in Year 8 of Mullen's tenure. Who is to blame for that?


Why would a new coach need 4-5 years to rebuild if we have talent?
If we dont have the talent to compete in the West- why do we continue to stay with the guy that cant get the talent on campus anymore after 8 years leading the program?


These last 11 games will answer alot of questions

So basically... You're quitting on MSU. Got it.

[ILOATHEBears]

NO you can't. Not in the SEC.

Actually bayoudawg is correct. 25 is the correct number but if we sign 22 one year we can sign 28 the next

[phatdog]

Wait, we're supposed to compete for the SEC west every year? Like Alabama? Sure.

[msstate7]

That place is not far from being the cesspool that is Jackson.

I'll admit that I've never been there. Group of my friends asked me to go while we were at state, I didn't make it. Anyway either my group really made up how great Colombia was to make me wish I had gone or they had differing opinions than you on Columbia. They went in '98 and they loved it. I should've talked from experience, rather than hearsay though...

[dawgday166]

Wait, we're supposed to compete for the SEC west every year? Like Alabama? Sure.

If I recall correctly, Mullen himself said for the first few years and in 2014 that he came to State to "compete for championships".

[Tbonewannabe]

Actually bayoudawg is correct. 25 is the correct number but if we sign 22 one year we can sign 28 the next

You can sign 25 people enrolled during a calendar year. That is how they "count back" on the previous year. If you sign 20 in February then you can sign 5 in December. If you have 6 in December then 1 would count for the next February signing class. Overall you are only allowed 85 on scholarship at a time.

[Coldsleeve Jr.]

Stolen from another board...

1985: 5, LOSING RECORD
1986: 6 wins
1987: 4, LOSING RECORD
1988: 1, LOSING RECORD
1989: 5, LOSING RECORD
1990: 5, LOSING RECORD
1991: 7 wins
1992: 7 wins
1993: 4, LOSING RECORD
1994: 8 wins
1995: 3, LOSING RECORD
1996: 5, LOSING RECORD
1997: 7 wins
1998: 8 wins
1999: 10 wins
2000: 8 wins
2001: 3, LOSING RECORD
2002: 3, LOSING RECORD
2003: 2, LOSING RECORD
2004: 3, LOSING RECORD
2005: 3, LOSING RECORD
2006: 3, LOSING RECORD
2007: 8 wins
2008: 4, LOSING RECORD
2009: 5, LOSING RECORD
2010: 9 wins
2011: 7 wins
2012: 8 wins
2013: 7 wins
2014: 10 wins
2015: 9 wins
2016: ??

[Political Hack]

Stolen from another board...

1985: 5, LOSING RECORD
1986: 6 wins
1987: 4, LOSING RECORD
1988: 1, LOSING RECORD
1989: 5, LOSING RECORD
1990: 5, LOSING RECORD
1991: 7 wins
1992: 7 wins
1993: 4, LOSING RECORD
1994: 8 wins
1995: 3, LOSING RECORD
1996: 5, LOSING RECORD
1997: 7 wins
1998: 8 wins
1999: 10 wins
2000: 8 wins
2001: 3, LOSING RECORD
2002: 3, LOSING RECORD
2003: 2, LOSING RECORD
2004: 3, LOSING RECORD
2005: 3, LOSING RECORD
2006: 3, LOSING RECORD
2007: 8 wins
2008: 4, LOSING RECORD
2009: 5, LOSING RECORD
2010: 9 wins
2011: 7 wins
2012: 8 wins
2013: 7 wins
2014: 10 wins
2015: 9 wins
2016: ??

We will never return to that. We now play 12 games. 3 should be automatic wins and we have SEC money to help get us a 4th if we schedule well. Our permanent from the East has been down, and we've owned them for the most part, so that's 5. We just have to beat 1 team in the West or the other team in the east, to get to 6 every year. That's not automatic, but to ask a coach to win 3 of his 9 competitive games isn't much. Unfortunately we can't win our easy games right now.

How much did we pay USA to come embarrass us again? Anyone know?

What kills me is that we're paying $4.5 million per year and people don't have a higher level of expectations just because Dan has done better than what we've done historically. History means jack in this instance. We now have money to pay a real coach to win, so he'd damn well better win.

[lamont]

Except on this board. Do you not remember the "Checkdown Charlie" moniker that Coach34 assigned to Dak? I believe he also said Dak could learn something from Fitz about throwing the deep ball.

I never saw him say Fitz was better than Prescott. I saw he said Fitz threw a better deep pass than Prescott. QB's do a lot of things- and just because Fitz throws a better deep ball than Checkdown Charlie doesn't mean he is a better QB. Your reading comprehension needs work

[lamont]

So there has been a small handful of coaches recover out of the hundreds fired. Ok.

We'll see where we are in November

[Coldsleeve Jr.]

We will never return to that. We now play 12 games. 3 should be automatic wins and we have SEC money to help get us a 4th if we schedule well. Our permanent from the East has been down, and we've owned them for the most part, so that's 5. We just have to beat 1 team in the West or the other team in the east, to get to 6 every year. That's not automatic, but to ask a coach to win 3 of his 9 competitive games isn't much. Unfortunately we can't win our easy games right now.

How much did we pay USA to come embarrass us again? Anyone know?

What kills me is that we're paying $4.5 million per year and people don't have a higher level of expectations just because Dan has done better than what we've done historically. History means jack in this instance. We now have money to pay a real coach to win, so he'd damn well better win.

Who is a coach that you can say with 100% certainty will win "x" amount of games consistently every single year at MSU, while also guaranteeing to never have a dumb loss or to never lose the opening game of the season?

[Op4isabitch]

Fire the Dud, we want Hud. ***

[Spiderman]

You don't lose to south Alabama in year 8 and recover.

Historically, you are correct. (S. Alabama being the generic term for any team that wins that type game)

This is what worries me.

[Spiderman]

So let's play with this. Who from this list are possible candidates:
Kyle Whittingham
Lane Kiffin
Mack Brown
Les Miles...figure he is done, needs a good OC however
Larry Fedora
Petrino

Throw others out I'm just throwing head coach experience

None

[dickiedawg]

How much did we pay USA to come embarrass us again? Anyone know?


It wasn't a "buy" game. It was a 2-for-1.

[HSVDawg]

Ok. Here is another. I saving this one. JWS lost to ULM and then the run and west title happened.

ETA. The post said nothing about where or what conference. They said NO coach has ever done it. And the second time it happened to Beamer he was in the ACC.

Good points. JWS also had a tie against Arkansas State and a loss to Louisiana Tech before that great 4 year run happened. The tie was in year 3, ULM (at the time they were Northeast Louisiana) was year 5, and the La Tech loss was in year 6.

[Spiderman]

Well research and find why it happened to those teams. And the post had noting to do with any of that. It was that it has never been done. Period. That's not true.

That's NOT what my post said, I said I had looked and couldn't find any, but maybe someone could. I considered Jackie's deal, but didn't want to start an argument, but now will explain why I didn't include that.

Yes we made a run, but benefited by a weaker than normal SEC west. But truth be told, if State doesn't beat Alabama in 96, he was gone. Then catch a break by playing OM in a monsoon.

Jackie saved his own ass by hiring Joe Lee. By the end of the year, Joe Lee had those guys believing and playing balls out on defense.

Then the program imploded anyway 4 years later. So the program didn't get better long term.

Now, some how Mullen needs to save his own ass, but he won't have the benefit of a weak SEC west. And nothing I've seen has lead me to believe there is a Joe Lee on staff to help him.

AGAIN, unless Mullen has an off the field issue, or goes 0-12, i don't for a minute believe he will be fired this year, and IMO, he like Jackie, has earned the right to try and fix it.

[HSVDawg]

I didn't know about the 85 limit? I remember when they PASSED that man. I bet you don't. If you have 30 open scholarships you can only fill 25 of them in one year. You still haven't answered, or attempted to answer, exactly why we are in that shape. We undersigned last year because we did NOT have enough open spots at the time. Paul Jones kept telling people that over and over last year leading up to signing day. You might actually have a good reasons to be angry, but undersigning last year isn't one of them.

You can put 25 players on scholarship any given calendar year, but early enrollees can count back to the previous class. We signed 2 or 3 guys last December that counted back towards the '15 class, and still had about 19 or 20 spots available for February signees this year. We only filled like 12 of those spots. We have undersigned the past two years mainly due to epic failures in not closing strong and having no plan B. Just this past year we missed out on AJ Brown, Lashley, Raekwon Davis, Cushenberry, that WR that we got from TX that decommitted and went to Oklahoma, and several others. Not having spots available has never been the problem. This has been covered ad nauseum over the past 8 months, so if you are not aware of the current situation with the shortage of scholarship players then honestly you haven't been paying attention.

[Commercecomet24]

If it's so easy to win 6 games then why have only 5 sec teams been able to do it the last 6 years(we are one of them) it's not as easy as everyone saying it is. That being said we gotta do better.

[Cooterpoot]

Mullen isn't getting fired unless he goes Sandusky or something. But, he could be encouraged to take a tv gig like Urban did for a couple years and that gives us all a clean break. If we have a losing record, I think that's what happens.

[DudyDawg]

How much did we pay USA to come embarrass us again? Anyone know?.

We paid them 150k to come beat us

[Really Clark?]

So there has been a small handful of coaches recover out of the hundreds fired. Ok.

We'll see where we are in November

I just listed a few to illustrated that the statement was incorrect. Why don't you just take the medicine and acknowledge it was incorrect? And while you are at it, how do you know the numbers is small? You didn't even know it was any. And are you going to include all the coaches that never got the program's going from day one? That's a big difference than our situation.

[Really Clark?]

That's NOT what my post said, I said I had looked and couldn't find any, but maybe someone could. I considered Jackie's deal, but didn't want to start an argument, but now will explain why I didn't include that.

Yes we made a run, but benefited by a weaker than normal SEC west. But truth be told, if State doesn't beat Alabama in 96, he was gone. Then catch a break by playing OM in a monsoon.

Jackie saved his own ass by hiring Joe Lee. By the end of the year, Joe Lee had those guys believing and playing balls out on defense.

Then the program imploded anyway 4 years later. So the program didn't get better long term.

Now, some how Mullen needs to save his own ass, but he won't have the benefit of a weak SEC west. And nothing I've seen has lead me to believe there is a Joe Lee on staff to help him.

AGAIN, unless Mullen has an off the field issue, or goes 0-12, i don't for a minute believe he will be fired this year, and IMO, he like Jackie, has earned the right to try and fix it.

I know Random Poster quoted you and that was the post I was referring to when I said poster. It was a very simplistic statement that I knew was incorrect in that context. I knew you are pretty good about historic context.

JWS is an odd one, sort of like Mike Price when he was at Washington State. And you are correct, JWS was a breath away from being fired. There was some really good years but stretches of very bad to average mixed in. I guess you have to ask what is sustaining the program? To me if you bounce back to at least your career average for 2-3 years then you are sustaining to a position you enjoyed before the bad loss and/or year. And I was also only talking about coaches who had good runs in their first 4 years or sustained a pretty good of 8+ years. I don't consider someone who would have sucked for 4-5 years worth mentioning because they didn't do anything to warrant a longer time for about 95% of the cases.

[Really Clark?]

Historically, you are correct. (S. Alabama being the generic term for any team that wins that type game)

This is what worries me.

Recover for the season or are you talking recover and bounce back after that year? VT lost to James Madison in 2010 and still won the ACC.

[Spiderman]

Recover for the season or are you talking recover and bounce back after that year? VT lost to James Madison in 2010 and still won the ACC.

program as a whole

[Really Clark?]

program as a whole

Beamer of course did it. Price is tough because it happened to him like year 10 or so during a horrible stretch but he goes 10 wins in back to back years and gets the Bama job. His replacement, who was promoted from within, won 10 his first year. So I really think Price actually not only sustained it but that was the greatest run they had. And historical they are abysmal.