Good grief...Ethan Small needs Tommy John

[CadaverDawg]

According to strong rumors.

This sucks. These kids clearly came in with UCL issues, but no doubt other teams will use this against us in recruiting. Hate it for these guys. Our pitching is quickly disappearing for next season.

[DeviousDawg]

According to strong rumors.

This sucks. These kids clearly came in with UCL issues, but no doubt other teams will use this against us in recruiting. Hate it for these guys. Our pitching is quickly disappearing for next season.

Damn, that really sucks if true. Been a tough off season for the Diamond Dawgs.

[I seen it dawg]

It's common now. No one can look at what we do with our pitchers and say we're terrible on pitchers. It's just bad luck. When you recruit power arms like we have been this is the risk you take.

[msbulldog]

Damn BB cannot catch a break.

[MSUMatt]

Or it's the fall, summer, and spring baseball a lot of these kids have been playing since 8 years old.

[MarketingBully]

According to strong rumors.

This sucks. These kids clearly came in with UCL issues, but no doubt other teams will use this against us in recruiting. Hate it for these guys. Our pitching is quickly disappearing for next season.

How can it be used against us in recruiting? Mini-me is no longer here who it would be attributed to if any of our coaches would be to blame.

[BB30]

Eh, it's starting to happen everywhere. I bet you would be hard pressed to find an SEC roster that doesn't have a current TJ issue or have a couple arms that have already had TJ.

[Liverpooldawg]

Kids play way too much baseball at too young an age these days.

[KB21]

It's not what MSU's coaches have done that is the cause of this problem. It's what the parents of these kids and their coaches when they were 10, 11, and 12 years old did. Baseball is not a year round sport for pitchers. It just isn't. I've seen 14 and 15 year old kids in my clinic with elbow pain, and I've told them all that they are heading towards TJS if they don't let their arms rest and play another sport. Heck, last summer, I took a kid out of baseball medically until January. He was having shoulder and elbow pain and was 15. I told him he could play football, but not to touch a baseball till after I saw him back in January.

UCL tears are just as preventable as diabetes and hypertension. You have to take ownership of your body and take care of it. These kids that are throwing 12 months out of the year are not taking care of their bodies.

[MafiaDawg]

Probably not a popular stance but with 3 current tommy John injuries do we need to cut bait with 1 or 2 of them? We can't afford to carry 3 pitchers on scholarship when none of them will pitch an inning in 2017.

[Taog Redloh]

Now we see why Cohen is recrooting seemingly so many pitchers. I'm sure he knows this crap is widespread. I'm glad we have those JUCOs now.

[DeviousDawg]

This has really been becoming a problem the last 10 years ago. If something don't change it will soon be out of the norm for a pitcher to never get TJ. The awful part is, that it can be attributed to overly obsessed dads pushing their kids way to hard. Just like there is a set distance between the plate and the mound for each age group, there should be a pitch count limit for each age group, gradually increasing until 15 years old. Most of the damage is done before the age of 15.

[KB21]

The bad thing is, Ethan was doing very well in the Cape League. I think he would have been one of the headliners on the staff in 2017.

[KB21]

This has really been becoming a problem the last 10 years ago. If something don't change it will soon be out of the norm for a pitcher to never get TJ. The awful part is, that it can be attributed to overly obsessed dads pushing their kids way to hard. Just like there is a set distance between the plate and the mound for each age group, there should be a pitch count limit for each age group, gradually increasing until 15 years old. Most of the damage is done before the age of 15.

There are pitch count limits (http://www.asmi.org/research.php?page=research&section=positionStatement).

The thing is, it isn't just pitch counts and rest in between starts. A lot has to do with the types of pitches you throw. Overthrowing to light up the radar gun is one possible cause. Throwing junk pitches at a young age is another.

Greg Maddux once said that his son would throw nothing but fastballs and would learn how to locate the fastball before throwing any off speed or breaking pitches. He said that young pitchers shouldn't throw breaking pitches till they get into college.

[BorneDawg]

Do we have some position players who pitched in HS? I know LA did he wasn't overpowering but threw mid to high 80's with a good slider. Maybe with some coaching could be a mid week/pen option. Just saying if needed to give minor relief in certain games to spare better arms.

[AlSwearengen]

According to strong rumors.

This sucks. These kids clearly came in with UCL issues, but no doubt other teams will use this against us in recruiting. Hate it for these guys. Our pitching is quickly disappearing for next season.

No, we and everyone else will use it against arkansas in recruiting.

[Taog Redloh]

Do we have some position players who pitched in HS? I know LA did he wasn't overpowering but threw mid to high 80's with a good slider. Maybe with some coaching could be a mid week/pen option. Just saying if needed to give minor relief in certain games to spare better arms.

We've got plenty of arms. Cohen over-recrooted the pitchers. We have 4 JUCOs coming in.

[mic]

Kids play way too much baseball at too young an age these days.

Yes...

[DeviousDawg]

There are pitch count limits (http://www.asmi.org/research.php?page=research?ion=positionStatement).

The thing is, it isn't just pitch counts and rest in between starts. A lot has to do with the types of pitches you throw. Overthrowing to light up the radar gun is one possible cause. Throwing junk pitches at a young age is another.

Greg Maddux once said that his son would throw nothing but fastballs and would learn how to locate the fastball before throwing any off speed or breaking pitches. He said that young pitchers shouldn't throw breaking pitches till they get into college.

I'm talking about a set in stone nation wide, regardless of league, legal pitch count. Is that a thing now? Make the umpires responsible for keeping pitch counts, fine the parents if the kid goes over. This isn't a "pussification of America" issue, it's a real issue that is affecting the futures of some of our kids.

My dad always told me that I would never break my wrist with a pitch until he could pluck a whisker off my chin. Taught me how to throw a curveball with your wrist broken before going to the plate, which was still very affective at the age. Circle change and knuckle curve among other pitches can be taught to kids without breaking their wrists on delivery.

There is a right way to teach kids how to throw junk without tearing up their arms at a young age. So sad going to the local ball park and seeing a 10 year old breaking his wrist to throw a curveball. It's just too much stress on their young underdeveloped arms. The solution starts and finishes with parents and coaches becoming better educated on the risks of over pitching and throwing junk at a young age.

[DeviousDawg]

Do we have some position players who pitched in HS? I know LA did he wasn't overpowering but threw mid to high 80's with a good slider. Maybe with some coaching could be a mid week/pen option. Just saying if needed to give minor relief in certain games to spare better arms.

Surprisingly, Jake Mangum is a pretty good pitcher. Fastball in the low 90s. Wouldn't be surprised if he got some work in the pen over the fall.

[Jack Lambert]

Some pitchers have gotten Tommy Johns and not need it.

[Taog Redloh]

The solution starts and finishes with parents and coaches becoming better educated on the risks of over pitching and throwing junk at a young age.
Good luck with that. The issue isn't ignorance anymore, it's parents trying to live their life and assert social status through their kids.

[DeviousDawg]

Good luck with that. The issue isn't ignorance anymore, it's parents trying to live their life and assert social status through their kids.

Sadly, you are spot on. So many parents use their kids for their own good, trying to live vicariously through them in the hopes of some how achieving a goal that they couldn't do for themselves in the past. It's just sick hearing of grown men fighting over a 10 year old baseball game and using their kids as some sort of time machine to correct their own past.

[saltydawg77]

This is horrible news if true. I was already thinking next year was going to be a bad year because we lost all of our end of the year weekend starting pitching couple that with we lost ALL of our power hitting to the draft and now we just lost the one kid I thought might be our Friday starter next year! brace yourselves bulldog faithful next season is going to be a long one. but I hope like hell I'm wrong! HAIL STATE!

[ETDawg]

Probably not a popular stance but with 3 current tommy John injuries do we need to cut bait with 1 or 2 of them? We can't afford to carry 3 pitchers on scholarship when none of them will pitch an inning in 2017.

Medically redshirted players do not count against 35 man roster. Also, not sure you can cut an injured player and if you could, it definitely would not go over real well in the select group of athletes that we are trying to recruit.

[Commercecomet24]

It's not our coaches it's the stupid coaches of youth baseball who wear their kids out. Find one kid and ride him. I just coached my travel team in a World Series. There was a team that threw their ace 16 innings over 4 days and that was after he pitched 5 in a league game 2 days before! That's 20 innings in 6 days and it ain't the first time. Kid has potential but his arms gonna fall off. My ace threw 6 innings 2 opening day and 4 in championship game(we run ruled that very team and that kid). I have 9 of my 11 players that pitch and none threw more than 6 innings or 85 pitches total! What I see on the travel circuit week in and week out disgusts me. These kids are ruined before they ever get to college.

[Political Hack]

Kids play way too much baseball at too young an age these days.

That's why you make your kid play 2nd base and OF instead of pitching in 7-8 year old baseball.

[KB21]

I'm talking about a set in stone nation wide, regardless of league, legal pitch count. Is that a thing now? Make the umpires responsible for keeping pitch counts, fine the parents if the kid goes over. This isn't a "pussification of America" issue, it's a real issue that is affecting the futures of some of our kids.

My dad always told me that I would never break my wrist with a pitch until he could pluck a whisker off my chin. Taught me how to throw a curveball with your wrist broken before going to the plate, which was still very affective at the age. Circle change and knuckle curve among other pitches can be taught to kids without breaking their wrists on delivery.

There is a right way to teach kids how to throw junk without tearing up their arms at a young age. So sad going to the local ball park and seeing a 10 year old breaking his wrist to throw a curveball. It's just too much stress on their young underdeveloped arms. The solution starts and finishes with parents and coaches becoming better educated on the risks of over pitching and throwing junk at a young age.

I've been talking to Brian Bridges, who is the scouting director for the Braves, about this. He's convinced that young pitchers throwing cutters puts a lot of strain on the elbow.

[Msubaseball62]

Wow. People believe anything they hear. Who is your credible source?

[lamont]

Wow. People believe anything they hear. Who is your credible source?

Small is on the shelf for 2 months- Tommy John is 50/50 at this point they say.
Padgett is assuredly headed for Tommy John.

And yes- young kids playing 50 freaking games a year is ridiculous. There is no doubt the amount of strain being put on young elbows these days is causing the arm problems. Thats obvious.

[Todd4State]

Small is on the shelf for 2 months- Tommy John is 50/50 at this point they say.
Padgett is assuredly headed for Tommy John.

And yes- young kids playing 50 freaking games a year is ridiculous. There is no doubt the amount of strain being put on young elbows these days is causing the arm problems. Thats obvious.

That's good news at this point however it also sounds like Tommy John is inevitable. We'll just hope for the best.

[Todd4State]

I've been talking to Brian Bridges, who is the scouting director for the Braves, about this. He's convinced that young pitchers throwing cutters puts a lot of strain on the elbow.

I wonder why he thinks that because a cutter is basically the same as a fastball with a slightly different finger places and or pressure on the ball? It just seems odd to me now that studies have shown that curveballs and split finger fastballs aren't the culprits we once thought they were.

[DeviousDawg]

Small is on the shelf for 2 months- Tommy John is 50/50 at this point they say.
Padgett is assuredly headed for Tommy John.

And yes- young kids playing 50 freaking games a year is ridiculous. There is no doubt the amount of strain being put on young elbows these days is causing the arm problems. That's obvious.

50 games is on the lower end of the spectrum now. When the USSSA started to form and overtake Dizzy Dean and other post rec-league all star leagues, I knew this problem was inevitable. USSSA became a separate entity, and the more talented kids stopped playing rec ball, and only played travel ball. This switch over happened about 10-15 years ago, which is why we are now just starting to see the TJ outbreak, because the first travel ball kids are now in 18-25. Rec ball + dizzy dean all star would be about 30 games a year for these kids, tops. The USSSA is a different monster, tournaments every weekend from March to August, where a kid could play up to 7 or 8 games a weekend through the losers bracket. Throw in the increase in fall ball tournaments, and these kids are playing ball 9-10 months out of the year. I'd say the average USSSA team plays close to 100 games a year. Someone needs to regulate this stuff before it ruins the game.

[RAYn_Man]

It isn't any type of pitch or age or anything it is simply overuse. Too many games, too many innings. Couple that with bigger, stronger players and the ligament can't take it.

[msstate7]

Seems if the vast majority of good young baseball players are playing pretty much year round it would be hard to not let your kid play too. While letting them rest would be great for their bodies, it could cause then to fall behind the others that aren't resting.

[Billy Ray Valentine]

Surprisingly, Jake Mangum is a pretty good pitcher. Fastball in the low 90s. Wouldn't be surprised if he got some work in the pen over the fall.
Surprisingly? Nothing about Jake surprises me

[MarketingBully]

Why isn't this being reported on any other site? Not that I don't believe you guys but by now the chicken littles on all the other sites would be screaming this from the roof tops and saying we would be screwed next year.

[Todd4State]

Why isn't this being reported on any other site? Not that I don't believe you guys but by now the chicken littles on all the other sites would be screaming this from the roof tops and saying we would be screwed next year.

Because we have the best baseball board among MSU web sites?

Plus the rumor has been put to rest- no Tommy John but rest for the next two months. Worst case scenario we're rolling Pilkington, Breaux, Keegan, and maybe Cyr out there. I can live with that if that's what it comes down to- which I hope it doesn't because I want a healthy Small out there.

[SPMT]

Is it year around baseball or too much pitching?

The Dominicans play baseball year around from the time they can walk, dontheybhave this problem?

Maybe the Dominicans aren't irresponsible with the pitching.

I dorm believe for one minute that just playing baseball, as in everyday practice, pickup games, etc. is the problem. The game of baseball just isn't that hard on the body compard to other sports. Outside of pitching, the rest of the game is relatively easy on the body.

[HoopsDawg]

Is it year around baseball or too much pitching?

The Dominicans play baseball year around from the time they can walk, dontheybhave this problem?

Maybe the Dominicans aren't irresponsible with the pitching.

I dorm believe for one minute that just playing baseball, as in everyday practice, pickup games, etc. is the problem. The game of baseball just isn't that hard on the body compard to other sports. Outside of pitching, the rest of the game is relatively easy on the body.

Pitching off a mound with max effort too much is what you have to limit. Throwing year round should be fine.

[Todd4State]

Pitching off a mound with max effort too much is what you have to limit. Throwing year round should be fine.

Exactly. Much higher leverage situation for a younger player in a tournament setting vs. playing in a sugar cane field in the Dominican. The Dominicans don't have people pushing them until they are in their teens. I remember an interview with John Smoltz and he attributed his arm issues with having to pitch so much in the playoffs.

[ShotgunDawg]

1. Inning total are certainly part of the issue, but it's an easy target IMO and one I which not much research exist. It's true that the less amount of innings you throw, the more likely you are to not get hurt. However, TJ is caused my numerous reasons and the anger towards little league coaches is injustified and just an easy target.

2. To echo Brian Bridges, cutters do out out slightly stress on the elbow than fastballs. When holding the ball off center, it redistributes the weight of the ball and you also throw a cutter with a stiffer wrist than a fastball.

3. Another problem is spiked curveballs. If you hold an curveball or slider by its traditional grip, the tendon in your forearm is nice and relaxed, however, when you spike an curveball with your pointer finger, it causes the tendon on the bottom of you forearm to tighten, which can cause additional stress on your elbow.

4. Lastly, I think more tommy johns are happening because players figured out that throwing hard makes you money and Major Leagues front offices have figured out that velocity+command has the highest correlation to collecting outs than anything else. All this equals more guys trying to throw hard.

[ShotgunDawg]

Pitching off a mound with max effort too much is what you have to limit. Throwing year round should be fine.

This. Flat ground places far less stress on the elbow.

[BB30]

I would slightly disagree on number 4. You either naturally throw hard or you do not and by hard I mean mid upper 9s. Most people that throw that hard and have arm trouble have a mechanical flaw aka Strasburg etc. If you are mechanically sound and throw 97 you are just as likely to get TJ as the kid that throws 85 and is mechanically sound. Inning total is an easy culprit, I agree but there is some validity there. Just like any other ligament injury if you are tired/warn out the chance for injury goes up significantly. I really think a large portion of the problem is the fact that kids aren't playing different sports and are specializing in just one. Complimentary muscles are very very important especially developing them at a young age. I also think that a lot of damage is actually done in highschool when the stud of the team is asked if he can go on 2 days rest and throw to secure a playoff spot or to throw in every game of a 3 game set regardless of if he is up to it or not. A competitor is never going to tell his coach I am not ready to go when the season is in jeopardy of being over. Watched a kid two years ago that played for a small private school under a coach that was a 3rd round pick and bowed out due to injury throw this kid 7 innings in game one two days later started him in first game of dh kid threw 5 and lost and in rubber game came in and threw the last 3 same day. kid logged 15 innings in 2 days with one days rest in between. That is how you place stress on the UCL.

[SPMT]

Exactly. Much higher leverage situation for a younger player in a tournament setting vs. playing in a sugar cane field in the Dominican. The Dominicans don't have people pushing them until they are in their teens. I remember an interview with John Smoltz and he attributed his arm issues with having to pitch so much in the playoffs.

Dominican kids don't have to be pushed. For most baseball is their only opportunity out of poverty. For them it is also like soccer in other countries, it's what they do. They are going to do it daily in some form or fashion. In Jamaica, this is the case with track. They have injuries when irresponsible coaches run them too hard, too frequently. In Jamaica they are going to run year around though and it is obvious the coaches have learned to not crush the kids at a young age, in general.

It makes sense that the raised mound is a huge culprit for youth arm injuries. I think it is that and too frequent competition. Kids often participate in these sports year around:

1. Martial Arts
2. Track - on club teams
3. Boxing

What those sports don't do is compete in multi-game tournaments three weekends per month, month after month. They will train and practice year around in some form or fashion, but they will have 1-2 competitive seasons or tournaments that are spaced out reasonably, i.e. months apart.

So, if parents and coaches would say.....ok, let's do a park league and some tournaments, then continue to practice, work on specific skills, work on general athleticism and then crank it back up for another tournament or two, etc. Periodize from preparation to a competitive season like other sports. Track is probably the best at all around planning of training and competing. It is essentially "athletics". And they know not to compete year around or run the same distance year around. They will start longer distance and work their way down or they will start shorter distance and work their way up. It depends on the particular coach.

[Political Hack]

Genetics & training vs. over use & over exertion.

It's pretty simple. You can control 3 of those. Control them.