OT: On this day in 1863

[Mutt the Hoople]

America began their successful defense or Our Glorious Nation over rebel scum.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jiz__ep8DG8/UdG_ZAKNfqI/AAAAAAAAFJI/OzRRwmMFvJA/s600/Chamberlain+Little+Round+Top.jpg

[Reason2succeed]

Amen!

[ShotgunDawg]

The entire Ole Miss atmosphere is a bunch of bullshit created to make Southerners feel better. When you see Free State of Jones, it's clear the way things really were.

The Legend of the Lost Cause began as mostly a literary expression of the despair of a bitter, defeated people over a lost identity. It was a landscape dotted with figures drawn mainly out of the past: the chivalric planter; the magnolia-scented Southern belle; the good, gray Confederate veteran, once a knight of the field and saddle; and obliging old Uncle Remus. All these, while quickly enveloped in a golden haze, became very real to the people of the South, who found the symbols useful in the reconstituting of their shattered civilization. They perpetuated the ideals of the Old South and brought a sense of comfort to the New.

[Jack Lambert]

The battle of little round top was on July 2 not the 1st. If you wanted to make a point you should have waited until July 4 and posted a picture of Vicksburg because the fall of Vicksburg July 4th 1863 was the real beginning of the end of the confederacy.

I also want to add that it was the third day of Gettysburg that the Oxford Grays were destroyed. Not the first day and not the 2nd which is Chamberlain and the 20th Maine defending little round top in your picture.

[Liverpooldawg]

The battle of little round top was on July 2 not the 1st. If you wanted to make a point you should have waited until July 4 and posted a picture of Vicksburg because the fall of Vicksburg July 4th 1863 was the real beginning of the end of the confederacy.

I also want to add that it was the third day of Gettysburg that the Oxford Grays were destroyed. Not the first day and not the 2nd which is Chamberlain and the 20th Maine defending little round top in your picture.

He said began their successful defense. He has a good argument there, for the Eastern Theatre. I would argue that the REAL beginning of the end was Shiloh.

[Jack Lambert]

He said began their successful defense. He has a good argument there, for the Eastern Theatre. I would argue that the REAL beginning of the end was Shiloh.

The blockade was killing the south. The only trade rout to and from England and France was through mexico. New Orleans and Memphis was occupied so the only to get goods in and cotton out of the South was Vicksburg or Port Hudson. This is why Lincoln said that Vicksburg was the key to the South. Vicksburg was so important that the Confederate Government was considering transferring Longstreet Corp from Virginia to Mississippi. However there was a section of the Confederate Government who thought that England would inter into the war if Lee could defeat the Army Of The Potomac on Northern Soil so they decided on keeping Longstreet with Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia invaded the North setting up the battle of Gettysburg. It was a gamble the South made and lost.

As long as the South could get food and weapons in and cotton out the war would continued. Richmond might still have fallen but the capital would have been move to N. Carolina. Eventually if the South could drag the war out, the North would have said screw it. Let them have it. Just like the Brits did during the AWI.

[Mjoelner34]

I would argue that the REAL beginning of the end was Shiloh.

I agree.

[Liverpooldawg]

The blockade was killing the south. The only trade rout to and from England and France was through mexico. New Orleans and Memphis was occupied so the only to get goods in and cotton out of the South was Vicksburg or Port Hudson. This is why Lincoln said that Vicksburg was the key to the South. Vicksburg was so important that the Confederate Government was considering transferring Longstreet Corp from Virginia to Mississippi. However there was a section of the Confederate Government who thought that England would inter into the war if Lee could defeat the Army Of The Potomac on Northern Soil so they decided on keeping Longstreet with Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia invaded the North setting up the battle of Gettysburg. It was a gamble the South made and lost.

As long as the South could get food and weapons in and cotton out the war would continued. Richmond might still have fallen but the capital would have been move to N. Carolina. Eventually if the South could drag the war out, the North would have said screw it. Let them have it. Just like the Brits did during the AWI.

I agree about Vicksburg. My argument is that Vicksburg was lost at Shiloh. I was up there today, taking my umpteenth walk on that ground. It's often over looked but it's importance in the Western Theatre is unrivaled. It's importance to the Eastern Theatre is more subtle, but in my opinion, also unrivaled. The more I read about and study the Civil War the more I come to believe that Shiloh was perhaps the key battle of the entire war.

[Mjoelner34]

The battle of little round top was on July 2 not the 1st. If you wanted to make a point you should have waited until July 4 and posted a picture of Vicksburg because the fall of Vicksburg July 4th 1863 was the real beginning of the end of the confederacy.

I also want to add that it was the third day of Gettysburg that the Oxford Grays were destroyed. Not the first day and not the 2nd which is Chamberlain and the 20th Maine defending little round top in your picture.

If any of you have never been to Gettysburg, you should go. Two things really stood out to me. I had seen movies and tv shows about the battle and it made Little Round Top look impenetrable due to the terrain. That's only partly true. Where the New York and I believe the Pennsylvania troops were, it was very steep. However where Maine was stuck, out on the flank, it was almost down in the saddle between Little Round Top and Big Round Top. The terrain did not benefit them like I thought it did. What they did was due to guts and determination a LOT more than any advantage they had in terrain.

The second impressive thing is crossing the field going to the wall and imagining the hell the CSA soldiers went through during Pickett's charge. It's hard to imagine that they actually penetrated the wall but, of course, couldn't gain a foothold.

Just off the battlefield at the visitor's center, the cyclorama is damn impressive. Too bad you only get a few minutes in there and its packed so tight with people you can't appreciate how awesome it is.

[fmbdawg17]

The South seceded to protect slavery and the North started the war to keep the Union together. The Lost Cause, as Shotgun mentioned, is nothing more than a myth.

Just like the Free State of Jones points out, the South was not homogenous in its support of the Confederate cause. I only have one more semester left in my History degree from State, and for my Undergraduate paper I researched slaveholding plantation owners in Natchez, MS that were loyal to the Union and were from the North. For many of these plantation owners, the South represented nothing more than an economic opportunity. Many didn't buy into the "Old Southern" lifestyle and certainly didn't support secession, as they feared that a war would prematurely end slavery and therefore cut off their economic interests in the South (Which it did, ironically).

All this ties into Ole Miss because the Old South and that culture that they love is severely misunderstood and misrepresented. The subtleties of history surrounding the Civil War and the Old South are ignored.

[starkvegasdawg]

The South seceded to protect slavery and the North started the war to keep the Union together. The Lost Cause, as Shotgun mentioned, is nothing more than a myth.

Just like the Free State of Jones points out, the South was not homogenous in its support of the Confederate cause. I only have one more semester left in my History degree from State, and for my Undergraduate paper I researched slaveholding plantation owners in Natchez, MS that were loyal to the Union and were from the North. For many of these plantation owners, the South represented nothing more than an economic opportunity. Many didn't buy into the "Old Southern" lifestyle and certainly didn't support secession, as they feared that a war would prematurely end slavery and therefore cut off their economic interests in the South (Which it did, ironically).

All this ties into Ole Miss because the Old South and that culture that they love is severely misunderstood and misrepresented. The subtleties of history surrounding the Civil War and the Old South are ignored.

Look up the Corwin amendment.

[Liverpooldawg]

If any of you have never been to Gettysburg, you should go. Two things really stood out to me. I had seen movies and tv shows about the battle and it made Little Round Top look impenetrable due to the terrain. That's only partly true. Where the New York and I believe the Pennsylvania troops were, it was very steep. However where Maine was stuck, out on the flank, it was almost down in the saddle between Little Round Top and Big Round Top. The terrain did not benefit them like I thought it did. What they did was due to guts and determination a LOT more than any advantage they had in terrain.

The second impressive thing is crossing the field going to the wall and imagining the hell the CSA soldiers went through during Pickett's charge. It's hard to imagine that they actually penetrated the wall but, of course, couldn't gain a foothold.

Just off the battlefield at the visitor's center, the cyclorama is damn impressive. Too bad you only get a few minutes in there and its packed so tight with people you can't appreciate how awesome it is.

I agree about where the 20th Maine made it's stand. I also agree about the whole postion involved in Pickett's, or more properly Longstreet's, charge. Those are the two sites at Getteysburg where I get that undefinable sense of the weight of history weighing down on me. For the Civil War the others (that I have actually been to) would be: The Stone Wall and Lee's Hill at Fredericksburg; the route of Jackson's flank march and the site of Jackson's wounding at Chancelorsville; Bloody Lane and the Cornfield at Antietam; the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania; the Confederate works at Cold Harbor; and Shiloh. For specific spots at Shiloh: the extreme Union left where two of Sturat's regiments held off two Confederate brigades (including the company that was raised where I grew up) long enough to insure that the Union left would never be turned (possibly THE key to the whole battle); the Rhea Field where the 6th MS died; the spot in the Rhea Field where Sherman was almost killed; Shiloh Hill itself; Pittsburgh Landing; heck I could go on forever at Shiloh. I have experienced that feeling at many other places around the world but those are some of the more weighty ones for our Civil War.

[Liverpooldawg]

Look up the Corwin amendment.

The Corwin Admendment is totally irrelevant except in the post war Lost Cause myth. Those who want to believe in that mythology place great store by it. Nobody else does.

[fmbdawg17]

Look up the Corwin amendment.

I see your point, but it doesn't really have any bearing to the point I made. The Corwin Amendment only had an effect on slavery where it stood, i.e. in the South. The primary issue regarding slavery was the South's desire for it to expand into the Western territories. Lincoln himself didn't oppose slavery where it existed, he only opposed its expansion. The South seceded after Lincoln was elected because his anti-expansion views represented a perceived attack on slavery. The idea of abolishing slavery as a whole didn't arise until well into the war.

[Mjoelner34]

The most infuriating thing is that my roommate, who is a HISTORY major like myself, thinks that slavery was not the primary issue of the war. It clearly was. Now, slavery as a MORAL issue wasn't the issue; the issue was economic. Slavery was still the primary issue of the war. The South seceded to protect slavery and the North started the war to keep the Union together. The Lost Cause, as Shotgun mentioned, is nothing more than a myth.

What legislation in the U.S. House or U.S. Senate was about to outlaw slavery when the war started? I haven't found one. I have however seen the Corwin Amendment which had already passed and had been ratified by several northern states when the war started and was mentioned by Lincoln in his first inaugural address where he said he not only supported it but "I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable". I also read the Crittenden and Johnson Resolutions passed by the U.S. House and U.S. Senate stating that the war was not started to interfere with the institutions of the states. The war started as an economic war since the south was paying about 75% of the federal budget due to tariffs but ended up a moral war with the Emancipation Proclamation. This Morrill Tariff kicked off what the Tariff of Abominations had put into motion back in 1828 when the war almost started. Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation hoping to start a slave rebellion in the south. It failed in that regard but had a far greater effect than a slave rebellion would have had. With the stroke of a pen, he effectively changed it to a moral war and immediately isolated the confederacy from any support from Great Britain. England would not fight for slavery since they had ended slavery, peacefully by the way, in their territories years earlier. Read the period newspapers from the north. They were terrified of the south building railroads and fearful their shipping lines in Boston would go out of business if the south was practicing free trade with England and France. This stuff isn't in history books. History books also don't tell you that just a few years after the war, that same government that values all men as created equal went west to murder the Sioux, Cheyenne and Araphaho in the Black Hills where a treaty had put them, all because gold was found there. Yet, we have monuments built to Custer that no one objects about.

Peace!
Out!
GO TO HELL OLE MISS!

[Liverpooldawg]

I see your point, but it doesn't really have any bearing to the point I made. The Corwin Amendment only had an effect on slavery where it stood, i.e. in the South. The primary issue regarding slavery was the South's desire for it to expand into the Western territories. Lincoln himself didn't oppose slavery where it existed, he only opposed its expansion. The South seceded after Lincoln was elected because his anti-expansion views represented a perceived attack on slavery. The idea of abolishing slavery as a whole didn't arise until well into the war.

Agree but the reason on the South was so opposed to Lincoln's ideas on forbidding the expansion of slavery was they knew what that would eventually mean. No new slave states would mean that slavery would eventually be voted out of existence throughout the Union, Corwin Admendment or not. There are a lot of issues that were legitimately part of what caused the Civil War. They all eventually in one way or another lead back to slavery. That is indisputable.

[Liverpooldawg]

What legislation in the U.S. House or U.S. Senate was about to outlaw slavery when the war started? I haven't found one. I have however seen the Corwin Amendment which had already passed and had been ratified by several northern states when the war started and was mentioned by Lincoln in his first inaugural address where he said he not only supported it but "I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable". I also read the Crittenden and Johnson Resolutions passed by the U.S. House and U.S. Senate stating that the war was not started to interfere with the institutions of the states. The war started as an economic war since the south was paying about 75% of the federal budget due to tariffs but ended up a moral war with the Emancipation Proclamation. This Morrill Tariff kicked off what the Tariff of Abominations had put into motion back in 1828 when the war almost started. Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation hoping to start a slave rebellion in the south. It failed in that regard but had a far greater effect than a slave rebellion would have had. With the stroke of a pen, he effectively changed it to a moral war and immediately isolated the confederacy from any support from Great Britain. England would not fight for slavery since they had ended slavery, peacefully by the way, in their territories years earlier. Read the period newspapers from the north. They were terrified of the south building railroads and fearful their shipping lines in Boston would go out of business if the south was practicing free trade with England and France. This stuff isn't in history books. History books also don't tell you that just a few years after the war, that same government that values all men as created equal went west to murder the Sioux, Cheyenne and Araphaho in the Black Hills where a treaty had put them, all because gold was found there. Yet, we have monuments built to Custer that no one objects about.

Peace!
Out!
GO TO HELL OLE MISS!

There is no such thing in our system as an irrevocable amendment. The South knew that in 1861, even if today's Lost Causers don't.

By the way, there very much ARE objections from NA to the monuments to Custer. I don't agree with that stuff. I do agree that monuments to the NA side should not only be allowed, but encouraged.

[Mjoelner34]

The primary issue regarding slavery was the South's desire for it to expand into the Western territories. Lincoln himself didn't oppose slavery where it existed, he only opposed its expansion. The South seceded after Lincoln was elected because his anti-expansion views represented a perceived attack on slavery. The idea of abolishing slavery as a whole didn't arise until well into the war.

I agree 100% with this. The expansion of slavery, not the existence of it, was definitely a cause. But, I still maintain that the south wanted the expansion to gain votes in congress to vote out the Morrill Tariff. As it stood, they had no chance to vote it out. Imagine now if all of the coastal states got together in congress and told the land-locked states that anything from their state being shipped out the US was subject to an additional tax and anything from overseas was subject to an additional tax. With the populations of New York, Florida, Texas and California on board, it would pass hands down and Kansas and Nebraska would be screwed. How do you think they'd react?

[Liverpooldawg]

I agree 100% with this. The expansion of slavery, not the existence of it, was definitely a cause. But, I still maintain that the south wanted the expansion to gain votes in congress to vote out the Morrill Tariff. As it stood, they had no chance to vote it out. Imagine now if all of the coastal states got together in congress and told the land-locked states that anything from their state being shipped out the US was subject to an additional tax and anything from overseas was subject to an additional tax. With the populations of New York, Florida, Texas and California on board, it would pass hands down and Kansas and Nebraska would be screwed. How do you think they'd react?

The South wanted to expand slavery to preserve it. They knew they would eventually outvoted otherwise. The other arguments are peripheral, at best.

[Liverpooldawg]

The answer to all these arguments on what caused the war are defenitivly answered by the participants. The Union went to war to preserve the Union. The South seceded to protect slavery. The secession statements issued by the secession conventions, of which Mississippi's is considered to be definitive, make that crystal clear. They also knew that secession would in all likelihood start a war. That has also always been clear.

[Liverpooldawg]

Those of you who want to continue this better get political board access. I expect that is where this is headed. We just did this one over there about a month or so ago, LOL.