Perception in football

[BB30]

With football around the corner... what do yall think has to happen over say the next 4-6 years for the perception of our program to change nationally. We have had a few good seasons the last couple of years but still seem to be considered one of the bottom feeders in the SEC. Will it be winning without Dak? Beating the top two or three teams in the SEC several times? Or just to continue to have 7-9 win seasons with the occasional run for a west championship?

[Jack Lambert]

They will just confuse us with Ole Miss and their cheating ways.

[BulldogBear]

Jack's probably right! Ha!

There are plenty of folks that really have no significant better record or wins than we have in the last six. The Croom years are still hard in the memory of the current crop of younger middle aged sports media bunch. The 30-35 year old crowd was in school or just out of school during the Croom years. Continue to go to bowls and we need to knock of Bama and LSU without Dak. That may not put us over the top but it is the next step. If you get those two both in the same season it probably means a trip to ATL.

One problem that may be very hard to overcome is the math problem. For instance two schools with more or less the same resume go 8-3 and 9-2 outside of their own matchup. The winner is the 9-2 who therefore ends up 10-2 while the other drops to 8-4. Oh nooooo, a "down" year. Whereas if the 8-3 wins they both end up 9-3 and both (maybe) are thought of as being decent teams. It's a very immature way of thinking. So, the 10-2 is penalized in perception for winning the game. What nonsense. Yet this is exactly what happened to us in 2014. We beat LSU, Auburn, and Texas A&M to end up 10-2 and send them to 8-4. So they all get labeled "down" and our 10-2 is devalued (even by our own ignorant fans). Yet if we lose those games, they are 9-3 and we are 7-5...business as usual...normal....what the college football world expects. They weren't "down." We beat them to make them 8-4. The "down" year is a myth that explains away the success of schools that don't normally have that level of success. All it really is is simple math. Two teams can't win the same game. This is the perception problem we speak of. We have to sustain success and change that perception to even get full credit for our good seasons. It BS. But it's the BS that is the reality of public perception.

[SaintDawg]

I think it's fairly simple... Consistent 10 win seasons and always be in one of the New Year Six bowls. In the SEC, you can never afford to lose a game to anyone.

[Taog Redloh]

You have to win something or beat somebody. That's what people remember. I think of it in 3 'tiers':

Tier 1: National championship - you are cemented for probably 10 years as a program on the national landscape, changes perception forever. This is easy to visualize.
Tier 2: Conference title/playoff appearance - gets you about 5 years of relevance. Think Michigan State last year or an Oregon type team.
Tier 3: Big 6 bowl win/2-loss regular season - gets you a year or two. Think Arkansas during Petrino, us in 2014 or Ole Miss last year

[maroonmania]

You have to win something or beat somebody. That's what people remember. I think of it in 3 'tiers':

Tier 1: National championship - you are cemented for probably 10 years as a program on the national landscape, changes perception forever. This is easy to visualize.
Tier 2: Conference title/playoff appearance - gets you about 5 years of relevance. Think Michigan State last year or an Oregon type team.
Tier 3: Big 6 bowl win/2-loss regular season - gets you a year or two. Think Arkansas during Petrino, us in 2014 or Ole Miss last year


Good point, like it or not, what has increased the perception of UNM the last couple of seasons are the wins over Bama. THAT is the quickest way to get respect by beating an elite team or two. Yes, they have lost games they shouldn't have but you will get more attention beating a high profile team or two and getting upset every now and then than you will with the Mullen path which is to almost always win when you are suppose to and always lose when you are suppose to. Outside of 2014, we really don't have many huge wins to hang our hat on under Mullen. And even those wins in 2014 didn't look as good at the end of the year as they did when we got them.

[dparker]

I say:
1) Show continued success without Dak. Right now people think he was a once in a lifetime player that made our program good. We need to show them it wasn't a fluke.
2) Beat Alabama and LSU at at least once every 3-4 years.

[Taog Redloh]

I say:
1) Show continued success without Dak. Right now people think he was a once in a lifetime player that made our program good. We need to show them it wasn't a fluke.
2) Beat Alabama and LSU at at least once every 3-4 years.

Problem with this is that those 2 teams won't always be on top, and beating them in a down year accomplishes nothing. Alabama is a pretty good bet right now, but you get my point.

[Coach34]

We would change things alot by not getting our ass beat by Alabama every year.

[EAVdog]

Perception just doesn't always align with reality. MS State will never be perceived to be a better program than some of the more 'known' schools. Even though over the last 5 years we've been better than say Texas, Michigan, etc... I think our best path forward as a program is for Mullen to be our Frank Beamer or if we're lucky Bobby Bowden. Slowly build us up and then get to a point where we win some SEC Division Titles, maybe an SEC Championship, play in the playoff, and maybe if we're lucky win a Natty.

We're never going to be the sexy flashy pick, it's not who we are. We can be the lunch pail toting hard working country boys who do it the hard way. That narrative just seems to be cast. And it's not a terrible perception. We just need to keep winning, going to bowls, and recruiting well.

[Percho]

Jack's probably right! Ha!

There are plenty of folks that really have no significant better record or wins than we have in the last six. The Croom years are still hard in the memory of the current crop of younger middle aged sports media bunch. The 30-35 year old crowd was in school or just out of school during the Croom years. Continue to go to bowls and we need to knock of Bama and LSU without Dak. That may not put us over the top but it is the next step. If you get those two both in the same season it probably means a trip to ATL.

One problem that may be very hard to overcome is the math problem. For instance two schools with more or less the same resume go 8-3 and 9-2 outside of their own matchup. The winner is the 9-2 who therefore ends up 10-2 while the other drops to 8-4. Oh nooooo, a "down" year. Whereas if the 8-3 wins they both end up 9-3 and both (maybe) are thought of as being decent teams. It's a very immature way of thinking. So, the 10-2 is penalized in perception for winning the game. What nonsense. Yet this is exactly what happened to us in 2014. We beat LSU, Auburn, and Texas A&M to end up 10-2 and send them to 8-4. So they all get labeled "down" and our 10-2 is devalued (even by our own ignorant fans). Yet if we lose those games, they are 9-3 and we are 7-5...business as usual...normal....what the college football world expects. They weren't "down." We beat them to make them 8-4. The "down" year is a myth that explains away the success of schools that don't normally have that level of success. All it really is is simple math. Two teams can't win the same game. This is the perception problem we speak of. We have to sustain success and change that perception to even get full credit for our good seasons. It BS. But it's the BS that is the reality of public perception.

Alex, Football for 1000

Who was the last team to beat Alabama and LSU in the same year and not make it to Atlanta?

[DogsofAnarchy]

Perception is NOT reality. We just need to keep winning and going to bowl games. That is the key to changing what people think. Longevity of winning is the key. And it will take six more years of doing it.



QUOTE=BB30;572901]With football around the corner... what do yall think has to happen over say the next 4-6 years for the perception of our program to change nationally. We have had a few good seasons the last couple of years but still seem to be considered one of the bottom feeders in the SEC. Will it be winning without Dak? Beating the top two or three teams in the SEC several times? Or just to continue to have 7-9 win seasons with the occasional run for a west championship?[/QUOTE]

[maroonmania]

Perception just doesn't always align with reality. MS State will never be perceived to be a better program than some of the more 'known' schools. Even though over the last 5 years we've been better than say Texas, Michigan, etc... I think our best path forward as a program is for Mullen to be our Frank Beamer or if we're lucky Bobby Bowden. Slowly build us up and then get to a point where we win some SEC Division Titles, maybe an SEC Championship, play in the playoff, and maybe if we're lucky win a Natty.

We're never going to be the sexy flashy pick, it's not who we are. We can be the lunch pail toting hard working country boys who do it the hard way. That narrative just seems to be cast. And it's not a terrible perception. We just need to keep winning, going to bowls, and recruiting well.

Yes, because we aren't getting any flashy recruiting rankings and we aren't really getting any flashy wins (outside of the 2014 run).

[PassInterference]

We would change things alot by not getting our ass beat by Alabama every year.

This. Ole Miss has the same record as us the last two years, but by damn they beat Alabama! That didn't make them better than us, but it grabs more national attention.

The last two years of Dak Attack and an Orange Bowl appearance improved our national perception. I think we're perceived as a 2nd tier SEC team instead of a bottom tier team. Nobody is picking us to win the SEC, and they shouldn't. We're a notch below that.

So national perception has finally caught up with reality. We've complained for years about being under-rated. Well we're finally rated about right.

...just in time to experience a rebuilding year where everybody will say "oh there's the M State we thought we knew".

We need to pull an upset this year. We need to pull one good up set at least once every two years. Every year would be great, but nobody does that.

No way Ole Miss makes it 3 in a row vs Bama. Ole Miss flat out beat Bama 2 years ago. And last year Bama handed the W to them with 5 turnovers and some luck like bounding a TD pass bouncing off a helment and into a WR's arms.

Back on topic...we need to keep winning the games we should win and pull an upset now and then. We need to stay in the top 3-4 SEC bowl games and be in the conversation for the SEC West late in the season.

[Taog Redloh]

Perception just doesn't always align with reality. MS State will never be perceived to be a better program than some of the more 'known' schools. Even though over the last 5 years we've been better than say Texas, Michigan, etc... I think our best path forward as a program is for Mullen to be our Frank Beamer or if we're lucky Bobby Bowden. Slowly build us up and then get to a point where we win some SEC Division Titles, maybe an SEC Championship, play in the playoff, and maybe if we're lucky win a Natty.

We're never going to be the sexy flashy pick, it's not who we are. We can be the lunch pail toting hard working country boys who do it the hard way. That narrative just seems to be cast. And it's not a terrible perception. We just need to keep winning, going to bowls, and recruiting well.

You got it, man. This is our realistic blueprint. While it would be great to win a championship to cement us for a while, it's not realistic. I like where we are now with going to consistent bowl games.

[gravedigger]

We would change things alot by not getting our ass beat by Alabama every year.

Amen. No blowout losses

[gtowndawg]

I've told several people we would have to go to bowl games for a decade. Every year - can't skip one, to even start to change people's minds. That doesn't mean we are looked on as a power, simply not as "that" Miss. State. That's why getting to a bowl this year is so important for me. Just keep it going. That's what matters right now long term.

[TUSK]

"beating Alabama" isn't a magic bullet for improving one's perception... It may get some recognition from NCAA Enforcement, but it's not a quick fix...

oh, and the obvious answer is: recruit & sign better player... hire & retain better coaches...

[Taog Redloh]

I've told several people we would have to go to bowl games for a decade. Every year - can't skip one, to even start to change people's minds. That doesn't mean we are looked on as a power, simply not as "that" Miss. State. That's why getting to a bowl this year is so important for me. Just keep it going. That's what matters right now long term.

Wish our fans could get united behind this. I think most would if we could win the Egg back.

[maroonmania]

"beating Alabama" isn't a magic bullet for improving one's perception...

As long as Saban is there keeping the program at its current level its pretty magic. And UNM has gotten all kinds of recognition (yes, NCAA included) for beating Bama in 2 straight years and for yes, as you say, recruiting and signing high profile recruits.

[maroonmania]

Wish our fans could get united behind this. I think most would if we could win the Egg back.

What fans aren't behind going to a bowl game every year?

[Taog Redloh]

What fans aren't behind going to a bowl game every year?

All you have to do is read the message boards, or listen to fans at any tailgate. While the message boards may only represent 10% of the fanbase or less, I bet the perception on them is the same across the fanbase, on average. People taste success, and they want more. They do not tolerate a down year. Many people wanted Mullen fired in 2013. Well guess what, 2016 is going to be that type of season again.

[TrapGame]

All you have to do is read the message boards, or listen to fans at any tailgate. While the message boards may only represent 10% of the fanbase or less, I bet the perception on them is the same across the fanbase, on average. People taste success, and they want more. They do not tolerate a down year. Many people wanted Mullen fired in 2013. Well guess what, 2016 is going to be that type of season again.

I disagree Goat. We had a really confused Tyler Russell in 2013. A drop back passer that couldn't run and well, couldn't really drop back and pass because of the OL. Every time Dak stepped in the play book got 50 more pages. The defense was decent but the offense with Russell was mediocre. We have three QBs that make TR look pretty pedestrian now. I think some of y'all will be surprised how well this team plays next season.

[BulldogBear]

Good point, like it or not, what has increased the perception of UNM the last couple of seasons are the wins over Bama. THAT is the quickest way to get respect by beating an elite team or two. Yes, they have lost games they shouldn't have but you will get more attention beating a high profile team or two and getting upset every now and then than you will with the Mullen path which is to almost always win when you are suppose to and always lose when you are suppose to. Outside of 2014, we really don't have many huge wins to hang our hat on under Mullen. And even those wins in 2014 didn't look as good at the end of the year as they did when we got them. Only because of perception and mathematics of defeat.


Problem with this is that those 2 teams won't always be on top, and beating them in a down year accomplishes nothing. Alabama is a pretty good bet right now, but you get my point.

I still don't believe there is such a thing until a top tier program has been mediocre for years. Bamas, USCs, Michigans, Georgias, etc. can have down eras but they don't have "down" years. When you see those it's more likely because someone that doesn't usually beat them does, dramatically affecting the arithmetic of defeat. "Down" years for the big boys can often also be combined with or attributed to "Elite Collapse Syndrome." You can read this as Power Programs or Spoiled Program. And it is often a rot that goes deep into the fan base and the locker room. Big school finds themselves out of the championship conversation too early than they can handle. Then they can't find the motivation and collapse, again giving the appearance that they were worse than they were and again devaluing previous upsets that put them in that position. I again say just like in 2014, TAMU, Auburn, LSU were not 8-4 because they sucked. They were 8-4 because math will not allow them to be 9-3 when they lost to MSU, a team they are supposed to beat. Florida's 4-8 team is an epic example of this. By the time they got to Ga. Southern they were 4-6. If things had gone differently and they were 7-3, they probably whoop that a$$, They had already quit. Expectations are so high. They did not have the mental capacity as a program to fight their way to a 6-6 record. With apologies to TUSK a school like LSU or Alabama at this junction in their program history would probably not be capable of clawing, fighting, earning their way to a 6-6 or 7-5 record. They could only collapse to it.


We would change things alot by not getting our ass beat by Alabama every year.
A win over Bama, even in a mythical "down" year would do wonders for this fan base. But nationally I think it needs to be a "good" Bama team, at least right now.


Alex, Football for 1000

Who was the last team to beat Alabama and LSU in the same year and not make it to Atlanta?

Well, it sure ain't us. The last team we went Tiger/Tide/Two&Oh was 1980!!

[Johnson85]

We just need a good four year stretch, with "good" meaning 10 wins in 3 out of 4 years and an 8 or 9 win year in the "down" year. Then we need to follow that up with a stretch like we've had under Mullen starting with his second year. We need to be in big six bowls for at least two of those year if not three.

Our problem with perception is that outside of 2014, Mullen's seasons have not been good enough to erase the impression of the Crooms years. People remember really good teams and really bad teams. All the pretty good years help perception by not reenforcing negative perception, but they don't really help erase bad perception.

[Reason2succeed]

Everyone has said good and true stuff but one thing is missing: PERCEPTION.

We need to do better with PR. It would help if our state newspaper and the so-called journalists that work for that rag actually reported and represented us fairly. It wouldn't hurt if they actually pushed us like they do OM. This is important because when national media outlets like ESPIN do their "research" a lot of it is simply calling the local media guys. When Ass-coff is calling Hugh Kellenburger to talk about their predictions for MSU the article ain't gonna end well for State.

Second we need to differentiate ourselves from other schools. We are in image hell. Check this out
1) We are the 2nd Bulldawgs in the SEC people think about
2) We are the 2nd maroon and white SEC team people think about
3) Sadly we are the 2nd team in our state that people think about

The only thing that we have that is exclusive to us is the cowbell. That's why I would put cowbells on every piece of MSU related merchandise I could. Also I would push the whole Starkvegas and even the cow(bell) college thing. Why? Because it would stick in people's brains and they would finally stop mistaking us with OM.

[Taog Redloh]

I think Tusk and Reason2succeed make the biggest points here:

1 - How to we get and retain great players and coaches?
2 - How to we get better perception?

Honestly I think 2 is already happening. We need to get better media, no doubt about that. That's the big one in that category.

But as for 1, what to do? Yeah we've got more money now, but still nowhere near enough to overcome the disadvantages compared to our competitors. First things first, fanbase needs to be all in, no matter what. Second, we've got to find some niche outside of 'money' or 'resources'. We won't win that battle in coaching or recrooting.

My suggestions:

- We need an offensive 'system' that can be ours, not just a coach's, and it needs to be run-based so we can implement it in high schools in Mississippi, plus that's the type talent that is accessible. Need to always make sure OL is big and deep, even if it costs us some skill here or there.
- We need to utilize JUCOs as much as possible.
- We need to treat Alabama and Louisiana like they are in-state, sell those kids on MSU being just like home, and a solid backup to the in-state schools. Make MSU seem local to them.

[TUSK]

Only because of perception and mathematics of defeat.



I still don't believe there is such a thing until a top tier program has been mediocre for years. Bamas, USCs, Michigans, Georgias, etc. can have down eras but they don't have "down" years. When you see those it's more likely because someone that doesn't usually beat them does, dramatically affecting the arithmetic of defeat. "Down" years for the big boys can often also be combined with or attributed to "Elite Collapse Syndrome." You can read this as Power Programs or Spoiled Program. And it is often a rot that goes deep into the fan base and the locker room. Big school finds themselves out of the championship conversation too early than they can handle. Then they can't find the motivation and collapse, again giving the appearance that they were worse than they were and again devaluing previous upsets that put them in that position. I again say just like in 2014, TAMU, Auburn, LSU were not 8-4 because they sucked. They were 8-4 because math will not allow them to be 9-3 when they lost to MSU, a team they are supposed to beat. Florida's 4-8 team is an epic example of this. By the time they got to Ga. Southern they were 4-6. If things had gone differently and they were 7-3, they probably whoop that a$$, They had already quit. Expectations are so high. They did not have the mental capacity as a program to fight their way to a 6-6 record. With apologies to TUSK a school like LSU or Alabama at this junction in their program history would probably not be capable of clawing, fighting, earning their way to a 6-6 or 7-5 record. They could only collapse to it.


A win over Bama, even in a mythical "down" year would do wonders for this fan base. But nationally I think it needs to be a "good" Bama team, at least right now.



Well, it sure ain't us. The last team we went Tiger/Tide/Two&Oh was 1980!!

I'll agree with you about "down era"... '97 - '07 Bama Football certainly qualifies...

[maroonmania]

We need to do better with PR. It would help if our state newspaper and the so-called journalists that work for that rag actually reported and represented us fairly. It wouldn't hurt if they actually pushed us like they do OM. This is important because when national media outlets like ESPIN do their "research" a lot of it is simply calling the local media guys. When Ass-coff is calling Hugh Kellenburger to talk about their predictions for MSU the article ain't gonna end well for State.



Yea, good luck with that.

[Reason2succeed]

Yea, good luck with that.

It's called pressure. If we don't have journalists from State that can do it then we at least need to pressure them into hiring journalists that report is fairly or even promote us. Allowing Hugh and crew to throw shade is detrimental to what we are trying to do.

It does no good to win a bunch of games if the next year our in-state media predict we are going to be trash EVERY FREAKING YEAR!

[I seen it dawg]

Amen. No blowout losses

WINS. Means we have to beat them sometimes. Loss is a loss. And when it's every year it doesn't matter what the score is.

[Bothrops]

With football around the corner... what do yall think has to happen over say the next 4-6 years for the perception of our program to change nationally. We have had a few good seasons the last couple of years but still seem to be considered one of the bottom feeders in the SEC. Will it be winning without Dak? Beating the top two or three teams in the SEC several times? Or just to continue to have 7-9 win seasons with the occasional run for a west championship?

Honestly, for perception to change for us we'd have to win 10+ football games.

[BulldogBacker]

What we are faced with is an Athletic Department Marketing department that is marginal at best. We have a very good coach who has brought more "visibility" to State than any coach in recent memory, maybe more than even JWS. However, we are fighting an uphill battle in recruiting. We had a #1 team in the country for 6 weeks in 2014, and, despite Alabama winning in Tuscaloosa, by the skin of their teeth, Saban felt the heat, and, has since been recruiting Mississippi harder, and taking top recruits we would ordinarily get, thus diluting our recruiting, because we have focused on recruiting "in state." They got the top OT in the state, by every stretch a "legacy," and the top CB. Both were in the Top 10 in MS. He is no dummy and knows what he has to do to keep State from rising and threatening Bama. He can do it, because Bama gets the #1 recruiting class in the country most years. Mullen has a "development program" because he HAS TOO! You can't do much with the #14 recruiting budget in the SEC.

[Dawg61]

I disagree that nothing has changed perception wise for MSU football. I have met many new people these last two years that immediately associate us with being #1 two years ago and several have actually called us a "football school".

[TaleofTwoDogs]

I disagree that nothing has changed perception wise for MSU football. I have met many new people these last two years that immediately associate us with being #1 two years ago and several have actually called us a "football school".

I agree. I think our national perception has increased considerably in the last several years. Our local perception (Mississippi) and probably in the southeast USA is still low but on the mend. As a fanbase, our years of suckatude has created an uber low-self esteem that we seem to nuture and sometimes spread ourselves.

In regard to the national perception, look how quickly we rose from a bottom dweller to #1 in 2014. This proves that respect will come pretty damn quick if you earn it on the playing field. Continue winning including beating SEC West teams on a consistent basis and we will find ourselves in the conversation as a perennial power. Our fans have also shown that they can sell out Davis Wade consistently if you give them a winning product on the field.

As I see it, the biggest limiter we have to achieving consistent upper level success is not facilities or fan support but a elite level recruiting budget and a strong network (not a UNM cheating network) with inroads to the high profile recruits.

[TUSK]

What we are faced with is an Athletic Department Marketing department that is marginal at best. We have a very good coach who has brought more "visibility" to State than any coach in recent memory, maybe more than even JWS. However, we are fighting an uphill battle in recruiting. We had a #1 team in the country for 6 weeks in 2014, and, despite Alabama winning in Tuscaloosa, by the skin of their teeth, Saban felt the heat, and, has since been recruiting Mississippi harder, and taking top recruits we would ordinarily get, thus diluting our recruiting, because we have focused on recruiting "in state." They got the top OT in the state, by every stretch a "legacy," and the top CB. Both were in the Top 10 in MS. He is no dummy and knows what he has to do to keep State from rising and threatening Bama. He can do it, because Bama gets the #1 recruiting class in the country most years. Mullen has a "development program" because he HAS TOO! You can't do much with the #14 recruiting budget in the SEC.

?

[blacklistedbully]

All you have to do is read the message boards, or listen to fans at any tailgate. While the message boards may only represent 10% of the fanbase or less, I bet the perception on them is the same across the fanbase, on average. People taste success, and they want more. They do not tolerate a down year. Many people wanted Mullen fired in 2013. Well guess what, 2016 is going to be that type of season again.

People were getting fed up with Mullen, not because we had a down year, but because his choices caused us to under-perform that year. He insisted on running Perkins up the middle over and over for no gain. He decided to keep an obviously superior RB in JRob on the bench. His play-calling and clock mismanagement were atrocious.

Thankfully, it appears Dan has learned from his past mistakes, and has improved as a coach. But he most definitely had a pretty shitty year in 2013, beyond the record.