Recruiting Class Rankings. Contributing factors...

[RougeDawg]

After posting the other day about the high attrition rate at OM, it got me thinking about how this effects each subsequent class. If they are losing 3-7 scholarship players a year due to attrition that frees up more spots to offer in each recruitng class. From what little I know, the classes are ranked by Total points of class. So the more players in the class, the more points. Teams with higher average player rankings are ranked lower because other teams have more bodies in their classes. Being able to "pump up" their class rankings each year due to attrition has started to create a feel amongst the casual/sidewalk college football fan and most analyst, that OM has been bringing in top classes the past 4-5 years. Compounded with the way they snuck up on people last year, and won a couple they shouldn't have people think that OM has a program filled with depth and poised to make the trip to ATL. The hype for OM is based on false perceptions.

Does anyone know exactly how they get the total points? I see Bama has 18 commits at an average of 91.73 for total of 267.53 points on 247.

[bocfarm]

Another OM thread

shocker

[archdog]

Yeah, generally speaking I think that a person gets a certain number of points for being a 3-5 star. Then they get points based on the national ranking at that position. Scout.com numbers are below. Also I believe only the top 25 players in a class count towards team rankings.
2 star = 20 points
3 star = 40 points
4 star = 120 points
5 star = 200 points
The number 1 player at that position is worth 100 additional points counting down to the last rank position to 0.
So Chris Jones being a 5 star player #2 as a DE was worth 299 points per Scout.com

[RougeDawg]

Another OM thread

shocker

**** off of a State message board if you can't handle facts about your beloved school.

It's a fact that attrition opens up spots. It's a fact that OM has had an abnormally high amount of attrition the last 4-6 yrs. these 1-2 yr rotating door scholarship slots have inflated the rankings each year. without those added spots each year adding to total points those classes drop in the 20's at best, like other teams who aren't signing 25+ players each class. Lower ranked classes void the perception of the casual observers, thus preventing the momentum if any thats been created by inflated consecutobe classes. Deal with it.

Based on February numbers solely the past 5 yrs, OM has more talent. But based on September actual rosters, State has a lot more. It's perception based on one day that's effected by other things, attrition contributing to less talent on roster and more open spots on the subsequent recruiting class. Pretty simple logic if you can think logically.

[bocfarm]

**** off of a State message board if you can't handle facts about your beloved school.

It's a fact that attrition opens up spots. It's a fact that OM has had an abnormally high amount of attrition the last 4-6 yrs. these 1-2 yr rotating door scholarship slots have inflated the rankings each year. without those added spots each year adding to total points those classes drop in the 20's at best, like other teams who aren't signing 25+ players each class. Lower ranked classes void the perception of the casual observers, thus preventing the momentum if any thats been created by inflated consecutobe classes. Deal with it.

Based on February numbers solely the past 5 yrs, OM has more talent. But based on September actual rosters, State has a lot more. It's perception based on one day that's effected by other things, attrition contributing to less talent on roster and more open spots on the subsequent recruiting class. Pretty simple logic if you can think logically.



You have received an infraction at Elitedawgs.com.

Reason: Inappropriate Language

[HancockCountyDog]

**** off of a State message board if you can't handle facts about your beloved school.

It's a fact that attrition opens up spots. It's a fact that OM has had an abnormally high amount of attrition the last 4-6 yrs. these 1-2 yr rotating door scholarship slots have inflated the rankings each year. without those added spots each year adding to total points those classes drop in the 20's at best, like other teams who aren't signing 25+ players each class. Lower ranked classes void the perception of the casual observers, thus preventing the momentum if any thats been created by inflated consecutobe classes. Deal with it.

Based on February numbers solely the past 5 yrs, OM has more talent. But based on September actual rosters, State has a lot more. It's perception based on one day that's effected by other things, attrition contributing to less talent on roster and more open spots on the subsequent recruiting class. Pretty simple logic if you can think logically.

I normally agree with you, but I have to say, we need more attrition. There are several players on our team right now that simply can't compete at an SEC level. Losing 3-4 players a year to lower tier schools is a good thing. Saban does it and I want to follow his lead on this.

Allowing someone like Templeton Hardy to sit on our roster while only signing 22-23 players is just ridiculous.

Mullen really does consider these players his kids, unlike Freezus who thinks they are clearly disposable, but I think some of these guys need some tough love. If you are a RS Junior and are 3rd on the depth chart, its time to say goodbye and its time for you to check out the wonderful campus at Jacksonville State or Alcorn State.

[FanninDawg]

August 31 can't get here soon enough...

[engie]

I normally agree with you, but I have to say, we need more attrition. There are several players on our team right now that simply can't compete at an SEC level. Who can we stand to lose as of right now? There's only a handful(at most) of dead weight players left on our team...


Losing 3-4 players a year to lower tier schools is a good thing. Saban does it and I want to follow his lead on this.
When did we ever not do this? We've CONSTANTLY had good attrition under Mullen. I could name 12 or 15 off the top of my head. That's why there are only 2(presumably) scholarship JRs and SRs that aren't listed on our two-deep -- Christian Holmes with his position change and Harrison-Gay(who knows)...


Allowing someone like Templeton Hardy to sit on our roster while only signing 22-23 players is just ridiculous.
Templeton Hardy is gone -- and we couldn't very well cull OL when Croom didn't bother recruiting hardly any in 08 and 09. We had to keep the warm bodies around at that point. Hell, we converted James Carmon to our starting left tacke -- that should say all that needs to be said about the dire nature of the depth at the position at the time.


Mullen really does consider these players his kids, unlike Freezus who thinks they are clearly disposable, but I think some of these guys need some tough love.
Huh?


If you are a RS Junior and are 3rd on the depth chart, its time to say goodbye and its time for you to check out the wonderful campus at Jacksonville State or Alcorn State.
This would be great -- if you could show me any RS JRs that are a legitimate 3rd on the depth chart.

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20130819-czhy-92kb.jpg

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20130819-esgn-139kb.jpg

[Irondawg]

And Holmes has been a good special teams player - not much dead weight at all in the Jr dept.

I'm sure we'll lose 2-4 by the spring due to injury/grades or just wanting more PT. For instance if Milton ends up as 4th string he'd be a guy that could look to get somewhere he could play. He's not dead weight at all as he's a good player in my opinion but if he can't get to at least #3 this year the reality is that it's going to take a rash of injuries for him to get a lot of PT

[War Machine Dawg]

Another OM thread

shocker

Blue Flag.

[bocfarm]

Not an OM fan...far far from it.

I just think its very odd that a % of our fanbase is so obsessed with OM

[RougeDawg]

Not an OM fan...far far from it.

I just think its very odd that a % of our fanbase is so obsessed with OM

yr. for them.

So by pointing out that had they not had the attrition rates they have had, and only signed 18-20 recruits in 2-3 of their previous 5 classes, moving their ranking into the 20-30's isn't a valid point. If every other class of theirs was out of top 20 due to lower total players signed, the perception is different. Observers/Media on the outer fringes of college football think they are loaded with top talent based on these previous classes, yet those who have half a brain can see that a lot of the top signees aren't even there anymore. One main reason each subsequent class is ranked high is they have more spots open than the norm due to attrition, consequently adding to total overall points. Thus a false perception once again, since much of the general hype behind them is their consistent top classes and a 7-6 season. Why is this so hard to fathom?

[bocfarm]

They return 19 starters and 10 on defense, they have a legit chance at 8 or even 9 wins (with a little luck and avoiding major injuries). That's not giving OM any kind of love that is just being realistic, once again vegas has their win total at 8, their not in the business of losing $

I took the under

[HancockCountyDog]

Who can we stand to lose as of right now? There's only a handful(at most) of dead weight players left on our team...


When did we ever not do this? We've CONSTANTLY had good attrition under Mullen. I could name 12 or 15 off the top of my head. That's why there are only 2(presumably) scholarship JRs and SRs that aren't listed on our two-deep -- Christian Holmes with his position change and Harrison-Gay(who knows)...


Templeton Hardy is gone -- and we couldn't very well cull OL when Croom didn't bother recruiting hardly any in 08 and 09. We had to keep the warm bodies around at that point. Hell, we converted James Carmon to our starting left tacke -- that should say all that needs to be said about the dire nature of the depth at the position at the time.


Huh?


This would be great -- if you could show me any RS JRs that are a legitimate 3rd on the depth chart.

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20130819-czhy-92kb.jpg

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20130819-esgn-139kb.jpg

Id rather not call players out by name, but I see at least 4 guys that are Juniors/Seniors that should not be on our team this year, due to talent issues and they should have been shown the door and we should have signed 4 more freshman.

Also, there is a difference between being someone that is serviceable versus someone we couldn't easily replace by a younger version. There are a couple of more in that category.
=
I guess what Im trying to say, is that Saban runs his team like a Pro-team and once its clear to him that the true sophomore is more talented to than the RS Junior and there is little to no dropoff, the RS junior is told to get an injury and goes on medical scholarship and the sophomore takes over the team doesn't miss a beat, and they sign a guy that may take the sophomore's job in a year. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Im not saying we have 10 guys that are dead weight. Im saying that heading into this recruiting class we need to make some tough calls. Guys like Joe Morrow, Ferlando Bohanna, and Curtis Virges versus Wilson, Richie Brown, and James/Quay;

[1bigdawg]

One reason we may not have "culled" as hard as we could last year (Mr. H-G) is that we were also very low this year. Any one recruit we did not sign last year adds to this year's numbers. The reason this occurred is because of playing so many freshmen in Mullen's first year - combined of course with Croom signing very few who made is five years.

[Ronny]

They return 19 starters and 10 on defense, they have a legit chance at 8 or even 9 wins (with a little luck and avoiding major injuries). That's not giving OM any kind of love that is just being realistic, once again vegas has their win total at 8, their not in the business of losing $

I took the under

..you would be happier posting on sixpackspeak.com

They are structured to accommodate people like you.

This messageboard, meanwhile, is not.

[engie]

Id rather not call players out by name, but I see at least 4 guys that are Juniors/Seniors that should not be on our team this year, due to talent issues and they should have been shown the door and we should have signed 4 more freshman.
So, you want to cut people that have earned their way into the 2-deep?


Also, there is a difference between being someone that is serviceable versus someone we couldn't easily replace by a younger version. There are a couple of more in that category.
We're a development program. This statement doesn't even make sense from that regard.


I guess what Im trying to say, is that Saban runs his team like a Pro-team and once its clear to him that the true sophomore is more talented to than the RS Junior and there is little to no dropoff, the RS junior is told to get an injury and goes on medical scholarship and the sophomore takes over the team doesn't miss a beat, and they sign a guy that may take the sophomore's job in a year. Rinse, lather, repeat.
So, really, how you go about making this example is by comparing MSU to the greatest coach of my time -- and one of the greatest football schools of my time. Sorry -- "Bama-style" attrition would be VERY, VERY bad for MSU on the recruiting trail. We literally can't afford to do it in football. Baseball? Sure.


Im not saying we have 10 guys that are dead weight. Im saying that heading into this recruiting class we need to make some tough calls. Guys like Joe Morrow, Ferlando Bohanna, and Curtis Virges versus Wilson, Richie Brown, and James/Quay;
You just completely lost me right here by including Bohanna, Quay, Richie, and James. You also don't cut and piss off Virges -- who comes from the greatest current MSU pipeline in existence. Who the heck is this Wilson you speak of?

Morrow is the only legitimate possible case to make here -- and that's IF he doesn't improve drastically this year which he's still got plenty of time to do. You REALLY want to talk about cutting both our 2nd and 3rd string middle linebackers -- both of which are very good players stuck behind a guy who just MAY go down as the best linebacker in MSU history(who is also eligible to leave this year -- something we should worry about if he's as good this year as I expect him to be)... and talk about cutting BOTH of our second string DTs -- who will play half the snaps this year? Sorry -- you went ridiculous there...

[gravedigger]

The biggest contributing factor: we fans swallow the hook, line and sinker.

Those rankings are based initially and almost completely on who the biggest schools say they are targeting. Some are honest evaluations. Not nearly enough are. So when the question of 'why do you think usc,notre dame, Alabama etc gets the most coveted recruits?' The answer should be simple. They were rated that was BECAUSE they were recruiting them. Recruiting rankings are ONLY valid 2-3 years down the road once it's know who actually contributed.

I do think they get their total points in a much more complicated way than just adding up stars. But when the rankings don't have even the hint of being objective, it really doesn't matter how you crunch the numbers after the fact.

To the point.......if you can do it, go back and look at that recruiting class(s) we had that got to Atlanta. It was rated average AT BEST.

I will forever be convinced that the top 5, maybe 10 classes in the country are probably pretty close to being correct. Classes 11-40 can be switched up.

In Om's case, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and can be evaluated no other way.

So will ours. And that is why I believe that the nonsense about Mullen not recruiting well has been proven wrong by both his ability to win with only a few of his recruits and the NFL talent he's brought to campus.

[messageboardsuperhero]

I normally agree with you, but I have to say, we need more attrition. There are several players on our team right now that simply can't compete at an SEC level. Losing 3-4 players a year to lower tier schools is a good thing. Saban does it and I want to follow his lead on this.

Allowing someone like Templeton Hardy to sit on our roster while only signing 22-23 players is just ridiculous.

Mullen really does consider these players his kids, unlike Freezus who thinks they are clearly disposable, but I think some of these guys need some tough love. If you are a RS Junior and are 3rd on the depth chart, its time to say goodbye and its time for you to check out the wonderful campus at Jacksonville State or Alcorn State.

I do agree with this in some certain cases, but that's more like separating the strong from the weak.

The problem with a lot of UM's recent attrition is that a lot of their best and most talented players are the ones leaving/getting kicked out of school. That's the difference between good and bad attrition: Good- weed out players that can't compete so that you can replace them with better players; Bad- Good players get kicked out of school without other good players to take their place.

[archdog]

The biggest contributing factor: we fans swallow the hook, line and sinker.

Those rankings are based initially and almost completely on who the biggest schools say they are targeting. Some are honest evaluations. Not nearly enough are. So when the question of 'why do you think usc,notre dame, Alabama etc gets the most coveted recruits?' The answer should be simple. They were rated that was BECAUSE they were recruiting them. Recruiting rankings are ONLY valid 2-3 years down the road once it's know who actually contributed.

I do think they get their total points in a much more complicated way than just adding up stars. But when the rankings don't have even the hint of being objective, it really doesn't matter how you crunch the numbers after the fact.

To the point.......if you can do it, go back and look at that recruiting class(s) we had that got to Atlanta. It was rated average AT BEST.

I will forever be convinced that the top 5, maybe 10 classes in the country are probably pretty close to being correct. Classes 11-40 can be switched up.

In Om's case, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and can be evaluated no other way.

So will ours. And that is why I believe that the nonsense about Mullen not recruiting well has been proven wrong by both his ability to win with only a few of his recruits and the NFL talent he's brought to campus.

I took the point system info straight from scouts website.

[bocfarm]

..you would be happier posting on sixpackspeak.com

They are structured to accommodate people like you.

This messageboard, meanwhile, is not.

Right after finish sucking my c**k

[HancockCountyDog]

So, you want to cut people that have earned their way into the 2-deep?


We're a development program. This statement doesn't even make sense from that regard.


So, really, how you go about making this example is by comparing MSU to the greatest coach of my time -- and one of the greatest football schools of my time. Sorry -- "Bama-style" attrition would be VERY, VERY bad for MSU on the recruiting trail. We literally can't afford to do it in football. Baseball? Sure.


You just completely lost me right here by including Bohanna, Quay, Richie, and James. You also don't cut and piss off Virges -- who comes from the greatest current MSU pipeline in existence. Who the heck is this Wilson you speak of?

Morrow is the only legitimate possible case to make here -- and that's IF he doesn't improve drastically this year which he's still got plenty of time to do. You REALLY want to talk about cutting both our 2nd and 3rd string middle linebackers -- both of which are very good players stuck behind a guy who just MAY go down as the best linebacker in MSU history(who is also eligible to leave this year -- something we should worry about if he's as good this year as I expect him to be)... and talk about cutting BOTH of our second string DTs -- who will play half the snaps this year? Sorry -- you went ridiculous there...

You missed my point. The three younger guys, Brown, Wilson (Wr), Quay/James, should pass the other guys and the older guys drop to 3rd team.

If richie and quay/James turn Ferlando and Virges into 3rd stringers, it's best for everyone if they leave. They get playing time, we get scholarships.

Our best teams have been due to landing studs from friendly areas, and making great evaluations on guys that other teams miss. I just think a scholarship is better served offering a young guy that could turn into J Banks, versus having Virges or Bohanna run 3rd team next year.

[engie]

You are talking about cutting 2 seniors who will, even if they are surpassed, still be second or third team players with alot of experience and who have been pretty good. You don't cut them so you can offer a scholarship to another diamond on the recruiting trail -- because that diamond can't fill their shoes on day 1 and will take time before you ever know for sure if they can(in which time, the senior-to-be will have already graduated). At most, the theory of yours only applies to guys one or two classes above said players..

Now, Gerri Green? Sure. You make room. We haven't turned down a single really good recruit "because we don't have room". So, we're already doing what you are saying to the best extent that we can...