Gotta give John Cohen a helluva lot of credit

[Coach34]

The vultures were circling. We were 8 kinds of bad last year and this year's team had a ton of questions. But there was some optimism based on a lot of player performances last summer that had showed some player growth. We added a really good recruiting class, so coupled with the summer performances- people knew this team had a chance to be a solid NCAA Tourney team.

But nobody expected a team that was going to be good enough to be a national seed as well as challenge Florida and A&M for the SEC title. Just an outstanding job this year- regardless of what happens from here. And he finally stopped bunting so damn much- we have dropped to a tie for 6th in the SEC.

[ScoobaDawg]

The vultures were circling. We were 8 kinds of bad last year and this year's team had a ton of questions. But there was some optimism based on a lot of player performances last summer that had showed some player growth. We added a really good recruiting class, so coupled with the summer performances- people knew this team had a chance to be a solid NCAA Tourney team.

But nobody expected a team that was going to be good enough to be a national seed as well as challenge Florida and A&M for the SEC title. Just an outstanding job this year- regardless of what happens from here. And he finally stopped bunting so damn much- we have dropped to a tie for 6th in the SEC.

Say what?

[Coach34]

The additions of Magnum, Lowe, and Lon Kruger have been huge for this offense plus the growth of other players already in the program

[smootness]

Say what?

In bunting.

[Brando]

Ok, Im lost. What is the last sentence mean that we dropped to a tie for 6th? Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.

[weblow]

Ok, Im lost. What is the last sentence mean that we dropped to a tie for 6th? Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.

We are 6th in bunting in the sec.

[RocketDawg]

6th in number of bunts attempted is the way I read it. 5 other teams try to bunt more.

[ShotgunDawg]

And he finally stopped bunting so damn much

And he hired Wes Johnson

[shoeless joe]

He's not bunting because we don't have to.

Baseball is a fickle fickle game that one or two players or mental approaches can make a major impact. Last year also shows how impressive a run Polk had by not finishing below .500 until his last year. But in reality a 1 year jump like this in baseball is not an extremely rare occurrence on any level.

Also, the fact that "the buzzards were circling" is beyond ludacris...not saying it isn't true but it was and is stupid. The reality that some folks never did and still don't like Cohen shows their own selfishness and ignorance. And unfortunately that agenda will continue to pop up.

[Coach34]

He's not bunting because we don't have to.

Baseball is a fickle fickle game that one or two players or mental approaches can make a major impact. Last year also shows how impressive a run Polk had by not finishing below .500 until his last year. But in reality a 1 year jump like this in baseball is not an extremely rare occurrence on any level.

Also, the fact that "the buzzards were circling" is beyond ludacris...not saying it isn't true but it was and is stupid. The reality that some folks never did and still don't like Cohen shows their own selfishness and ignorance. And unfortunately that agenda will continue to pop up.

A) He has coached the same team all season- we were top 3 in the SEC in sac bunts for half the season. When he finally stopped the ludicrous BS- we got better

B) It's 100% fact that he would have been fired had we missed the NCAA Tourney. So yes- the vultures were indeed circling. He answered the bell- that's what makes sports great.

[BossDawg]

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't everyone on this team return next year? If so, holy crap, we'll certainly have a solid group next season.

[Todd4State]

And he hired Wes Johnson

Last season was as much or more on Butch than it was Cohen. If Butch had started Hudson, Sexton, and Preston Brown allowing us to use Laster and Fitts out of the bullpen and stopped trotting Ross out there so much waiting on him to figure things out we probably make a regional as a 3 seed.

[MaroonFlounder]

No. Hudson, Sexton, Lowe, Kruger, Robson, Humphries. All draft eligible

[Todd4State]

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't everyone on this team return next year? If so, holy crap, we'll certainly have a solid group next season.

No. We lose Hudson, Sexton, Houston, Daniel Brown, Humphreys, and Collins at a minimum.

[Todd4State]

No. Hudson, Sexton, Lowe, Kruger, Robson, Humphries. All draft eligible

We're getting Kruger back probably. Good chance on Robson and Lowe too.

[MaroonFlounder]

I forgot about Collins. He's gone.

[BossDawg]

Not sure what was making me think that. I guess I heard someone say that (obviously not knowing what they were talking about). I have definitely heard some speculate that we should be better next year.

[Todd4State]

He's not bunting because we don't have to.

Baseball is a fickle fickle game that one or two players or mental approaches can make a major impact. Last year also shows how impressive a run Polk had by not finishing below .500 until his last year. But in reality a 1 year jump like this in baseball is not an extremely rare occurrence on any level.

Also, the fact that "the buzzards were circling" is beyond ludacris...not saying it isn't true but it was and is stupid. The reality that some folks never did and still don't like Cohen shows their own selfishness and ignorance. And unfortunately that agenda will continue to pop up.

Polk got to play Belhaven and Mississippi College plus the SEC in 1985 wasn't the SEC in 2016.

[MaroonFlounder]

Wes Johnson was a huge upgrade over Butch. We "pitch to contact" in that park this weekend we get hammered.

[MaroonFlounder]

Cohen is unquestionably the coach of the year, regardless of who gets the vote.

[maroonmania]

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't everyone on this team return next year? If so, holy crap, we'll certainly have a solid group next season.

No, everyone certainly won't be back. We have a ton of JRs that will be eligible to go pro including Hudson and Humphreys plus Lowe, Collins, Rooker, Robson, Sexton, Houston, DBrown, CBrown etc. Holland is a SR. Even Vance Tatum is a JR but I almost forgot he was still on the team given its been so long since he pitched.

[Todd4State]

Not sure what was making me think that. I guess I heard someone say that (obviously not knowing what they were talking about). I have definitely heard some speculate that we should be better next year.

The only way all of our guys come back would be for our boosters to do some Ole Miss level cheating to give guys like Hudson 3-4 million to make it worth their while to come back.

Of course, if I had about 50 million dollars I would be up at the Under Armour All-American Baseball Game doing some 'cruitin for Dear Old State baseball. Come to MSU, get 4 million once your eligibility expires. I'd make sure that we are loaded.

[Todd4State]

No, everyone certainly won't be back. We have a ton of JRs that will be eligible to go pro including Hudson and Humphreys plus Lowe, Collins, Rooker, Robson, Sexton, Houston, DBrown, CBrown etc. Holland is a SR. Even Vance Tatum is a JR but I almost forgot he was still on the team given its been so long since he pitched.

I bet Tatum comes back.

[Todd4State]

Wes Johnson was a huge upgrade over Butch. We "pitch to contact" in that park this weekend we get hammered.

I think the biggest difference between Wes and Butch is Wes makes our guys pitch inside more. Everyone pitches to contact to a degree. Obviously our velocity is better.

[maroonmania]

I bet Tatum comes back.

If he still has a roster spot I agree.

[shoeless joe]

A) He has coached the same team all season- we were top 3 in the SEC in sac bunts for half the season. When he finally stopped the ludicrous BS- we got better

B) It's 100% fact that he would have been fired had we missed the NCAA Tourney. So yes- the vultures were indeed circling. He answered the bell- that's what makes sports great.

A) agenda

B) specifically said I didn't doubt it was true, but whoever thought it was the correct decision was ignorant

[Todd4State]

If he still has a roster spot I agree.

He will have a roster spot. People probably said the same thing about Chad Girodo before his senior year.

[maroonmania]

I think the biggest difference between Wes and Butch is Wes makes our guys pitch inside more. Everyone pitches to contact to a degree. Obviously our velocity is better.

Plus Butch was insistent on pitching almost exclusively at the bottom of the zone. Johnson wants his guys to challenge hitters up in the zone as well.

[maroonmania]

He will have a roster spot. People probably said the same thing about Chad Girodo before his senior year.

True, but our pitching staff has WAY more talent on the roster now than when Chad Girodo was around.

[Todd4State]

Plus Butch was insistent on pitching almost exclusively at the bottom of the zone. Johnson wants his guys to challenge hitters up in the zone as well.

I agree with that.

[Todd4State]

True, but our pitching staff has WAY more talent on the roster now than when Chad Girodo was around.

That doesn't really matter. If someone can help our pitching staff next year they are going to be on the team. Tatum got selected to go to the Cape last year for a reason. I could definitely see him going off somewhere this summer and working things out.

[Coach34]

I'm still not sure how truth becomes "agenda" but ok. We've stopped bunting as much- that's a fact. We've become a better offensive baseball team- that's a fact. This shit ain't hard

[Coach34]

We lead the SEC in hits now- that wasn't the case earlier in the year. We stopped bunting as much and the offense got better. It's pretty easy to see

[messageboardsuperhero]

I'm still not sure how truth becomes "agenda" but ok. We've stopped bunting as much- that's a fact. We've become a better offensive baseball team- that's a fact. This shit ain't hard

We lead the SEC in hits now- that wasn't the case earlier in the year. We stopped bunting as much and the offense got better. It's pretty easy to see

All of this is true, and I'm glad we're bunting less with the middle of our lineup...

But our offensive improvement has FAR more to do with having better, more experienced players than it does with any philosophy change Cohen has made. In fact, I'd say his philosophy hasn't changed all that much. We still do wacky, off-the-wall stuff- the difference is that the players are executing now. That to me is by far the number one reason we have turned it around so far- a more talented and experienced lineup that knows how to execute and play their roles.

[shoeless joe]

I'm still not sure how truth becomes "agenda" but ok. We've stopped bunting as much- that's a fact. We've become a better offensive baseball team- that's a fact. This shit ain't hard

The question is...and it's been talked about before...did we get better offensively when we quit bunting; or did we quit bunting when we began showing life offensively. Folks who have never liked the way Cohen does things will claim one thing while other folks see it another way.

[Coach34]

All of this is true, and I'm glad we're bunting less with the middle of our lineup...

But our offensive improvement has FAR more to do with having better, more experienced players than it does with any philosophy change Cohen has made. In fact, I'd say his philosophy hasn't changed all that much. We still do wacky, off-the-wall stuff- the difference is that the players are executing now. That to me is by far the number one reason we have turned it around so far- a more talented and experienced lineup that knows how to execute and play their roles.

we had better, more experienced players to start the season as well- and we're still top 3 in sac bunts halfway thru. We were even bunting in the 1st inning of games. He finally stopped doing that and we dropped down the rungs of the SEC in sac bunts. Amazingly- the offense got even better when we stopped giving away so many outs.

He he is always going to overcoach- that is the John Cohen way. But he did ease up on the bunting and it paid dividends

[bulldogcountry1]

He will have a roster spot. People probably said the same thing about Chad Girodo before his senior year.

I was thinking yesterday that Tatum could be our next Girodo. He has the opportunity to reset the reset button, go play summer ball somewhere, and try a completely new approach.

[EdDawg]

Question to those who watch other teams play.

Do any other teams shift in the field as much as we do? I'm not talking about small shifts, but for instance like this weekend Collins was basically playing short and Gridley was almost on the bag at 2nd?

I've seen us do this numerous times and am surprised at how often it works.

[bulldogcountry1]

I give Cohen credit for cutting back on the stupid crap. That's all that most of us wanted, and there is plenty of evidence to support that opinion. The average knowledgeable fan knew that he was a good coach and that we would be successful if would just get out of his own way. It's not like he even started this season a changed man. He did most of the same things for the first couple weeks, until he settled into a lineup and started trusting his players to execute.

So, besides a couple brains farts along the way, he has done an excellent job of managing games, being consistent, and having good game plans. If refusing to officially name Pilk as the Sunday starter is the worst of his meddling, then I'll take it.

[engie]

we had better, more experienced players to start the season as well

That you weren't so sure would make regionals...

Him stopping bunting is not what made this team start hitting. This team starting hitting is what made him stop bunting.

You don't have to coach elite, especially mature elite, players nearly as hard as you coach sub-par/immature guys. The team didn't become elite all of a sudden because he up and decided to get out of their way. They quit being pussies -- and he stepped aside and allowed them to continue not being pussies.

The vast majority of his overcoaching is and always has been a symptom caused by being out-talented. Him "not setting a lineup" is not what lost us games last year regardless of how much people present that as factual. No one on that team could hit with two outs and none of the real talent on the pitching staff stepped up. That is what lost us the games. Was he supposed to just leave them in their lineup spots swinging for the fences while they tried to lose 40?

That's the disconnect I have from the general "if he wasn't overmanaging" consensus anyway.

[BB30]

It is funny that when the guys execute Cohen all of the sudden "changes his philosophy". It was not the players fault last year, it was Cohens.** He has not changed all that much. When you can't hit you have to try and find a way to scratch a run here and there. When you are hitting the ball you obviously do not have to bunt as much to try and scratch out runs. A lot of it predicates on how the guys are swinging the bat. Cohen is not an idiot. He does make a few interesting and head scratching decisions from time to time, but every coach does.

[Coach34]

Engie- we had tons of question marks to begin the season- that's fact.

His slowing of the bunting allowed this team to get more chances to hit and produce runs- as opposed to giving the teams easy outs. Getting AB's and having Magnum challenge for Freshman of the Year thanks to an injury is what made us a better hitting team- but the slowing of giving away free outs helped the offense.

[shoeless joe]

Engie- we had tons of question marks to begin the season- that's fact.

His slowing of the bunting allowed this team to get more chances to hit and produce runs- as opposed to giving the teams easy outs. Getting AB's and having Magnum challenge for Freshman of the Year thanks to an injury is what made us a better hitting team- but the slowing of giving away free outs helped the offense.

This is why I say this is agenda based thinking. You're not even admitting that it's possible Cohen stopped bunting BECAUSE we hit better. Instead you assume off the bat that "we're winning cuz I was right and Cohen ha dumb in game skillz".

I agree he over coaches AT TIMES but in general he is responding to the talent and results of the past. Cohen is in a no win situation and always has been. If he wins it's because the players are great despite him and if he loses it's because he meddles.

Nobody will be changing anyone's mind on the subject so it is what it is. I'm just pointing out my observations.

[miketice]

[QUOTE=Coach34;554559]The vultures were circling. We were 8 kinds of bad last year and this year's team had a ton of questions. But there was some optimism based on a lot of player performances last summer that had showed some player growth. We added a really good recruiting class, so coupled with the summer performances- people knew this team had a chance to be a solid NCAA Tourney team.

But nobody expected a team that was going to be good enough to be a national seed as well as challenge Florida and A&M for the SEC title. Just an outstanding job this year- regardless of what happens from here. And he finally stopped bunting so damn much- we have dropped to a tie for 6th in the SEC.[/QUOTE

By "vultures" I assume you are speaking of yourself.Correct?

[tcdog70]

in Sports--a Track Record means a lot. JC has a proven Track Record for Excellence. Hell, he won at Kentucky.I never had a doubt He would get us back to Big Time Baseball. How many Coaches has State had the has put us in a National Championship Game.. Just Ole John. Does he do stuff that makes Me go WTF? yes He does. But remember the cliche--"Just Win, Baby". Now let's stomp a mudhole in the Hogs Ass.

[engie]

This is why I say this is agenda based thinking. You're not even admitting that it's possible Cohen stopped bunting BECAUSE we hit better. Instead you assume off the bat that "we're winning cuz I was right and Cohen ha dumb in game skillz".

I agree he over coaches AT TIMES but in general he is responding to the talent and results of the past. Cohen is in a no win situation and always has been. If he wins it's because the players are great despite him and if he loses it's because he meddles.

Nobody will be changing anyone's mind on the subject so it is what it is. I'm just pointing out my observations.

Yep. And when we are young again next year and Cohen does more of it -- he is back to being an idiot. That's the setup of how it's going to be played and it doesn't matter if he wins it all this year beforehand.

[engie]

It is funny that when the guys execute Cohen all of the sudden "changes his philosophy". It was not the players fault last year, it was Cohens.** He has not changed all that much. When you can't hit you have to try and find a way to scratch a run here and there. When you are hitting the ball you obviously do not have to bunt as much to try and scratch out runs. A lot of it predicates on how the guys are swinging the bat. Cohen is not an idiot. He does make a few interesting and head scratching decisions from time to time, but every coach does.

There is a bunch of us that could not agree with you more. And then there's a bunch who will vehemently disagree regardless. I'm with you on this fwiw.

[Commercecomet24]

It is funny that when the guys execute Cohen all of the sudden "changes his philosophy". It was not the players fault last year, it was Cohens.** He has not changed all that much. When you can't hit you have to try and find a way to scratch a run here and there. When you are hitting the ball you obviously do not have to bunt as much to try and scratch out runs. A lot of it predicates on how the guys are swinging the bat. Cohen is not an idiot. He does make a few interesting and head scratching decisions from time to time, but every coach does.

Agree completely. This year we have hitters so much less bunting, last year we were just trying to figure out how to score runs.

[Tbonewannabe]

All coaches occasionally do things that make you go WTF. I think last year was extra bad because we weren't a team built to win with the bat and ball set up. Cohen tried everything he could to win last year. I wonder if he had scrapped the year and let some freshmen take some lumps if it would have benefited us this year. You have to give credit to Cohen going out and getting Lowe and Kruger from Juco. Those guys were great additions combined with letting Mangum get reps early. Cohen has done a great job with this team. If some of these freshmen pitchers can come around then we could have another great team next year.

[smootness]

I think they changed the ball before Cohen thought they were going to...so I think he was caught last year with a team built more for the old ball that couldn't deal very well with it. That's an overly simplistic rationale, as we wouldn't have been great with the old ball either, but I do think he intended to build this kind of offense eventually, but the reward for it was lessened with the old ball.

[Todd4State]

All coaches occasionally do things that make you go WTF. I think last year was extra bad because we weren't a team built to win with the bat and ball set up. Cohen tried everything he could to win last year. I wonder if he had scrapped the year and let some freshmen take some lumps if it would have benefited us this year. You have to give credit to Cohen going out and getting Lowe and Kruger from Juco. Those guys were great additions combined with letting Mangum get reps early. Cohen has done a great job with this team. If some of these freshmen pitchers can come around then we could have another great team next year.

Not really only because we didn't have very many freshmen last year. Gridley started. Now I do think that Hudson probably would have benefitted from making a few starts.

[Todd4State]

I think they changed the ball before Cohen thought they were going to...so I think he was caught last year with a team built more for the old ball that couldn't deal very well with it. That's an overly simplistic rationale, as we wouldn't have been great with the old ball either, but I do think he intended to build this kind of offense eventually, but the reward for it was lessened with the old ball.

That was definitely a large part of it. Some of it was injuries to guys like Gavin which really hurt our power last year. Some of it was the bats being not the best. Some of it was players like Humphreys and Rooker still developing.

Also, I think brining in Will Coggins was a GREAT hire that has made a huge difference this year as far as our hitting goes. He is going to be a great coach for us.


But the thing that gets overlooked because we have made such a jump offensively is the fact that our bullpen couldn't get anyone out. Our pitchers killed us much more than our hitting did last year.

[turkish]

People knew this team had a chance to be a solid NCAA tourney team

we had tons of question marks to begin the season- that's fact.
Wait. what?

[shoeless joe]

But the thing that gets overlooked because we have made such a jump offensively is the fact that our bullpen couldn't get anyone out. Our pitchers killed us much more than our hitting did last year.

If our pen had been serviceable last year we're a tourney team. And the anti-Cohen army would've been harping on something else...prolly how he doesn't type out a birthday card to all his players.