John Cohen discusses lineup diversity, matchups, Hudson, etc on Out of Bounds

[Out of Bounds]

John Cohen stopped by today. Good interview on the season & players.
According to a little research, MSU has the most consistent daily starting unit of any SEC team.


Podcast on Out of Bounds Radio App: http://*******/1l69XZN


Bo Bounds
Out of Bounds Show
ESPN 105.9 The Zone
thezone1059.com
Twitter: @bobounds

[Political Hack]

That's hard to believe that Cohen has the most consistent starting lineup in the SEC.

[I seen it dawg]

It's a different lineup every game. Research is bunk.

[maroonmania]

That's hard to believe that Cohen has the most consistent starting lineup in the SEC.

I could see that. I mean they rarely bat in the same order but most of the regulars are usually in there.

[Coach34]

I could see that. I mean they rarely bat in the same order but most of the regulars are usually in there.

Then there is nothing consistent about it

[War Machine Dawg]

I could see that. I mean they rarely bat in the same order but most of the regulars are usually in there.

This. It's mostly the same guys so far this year, but almost none of them bat in the same spot two days in a row. Robson is virtually the lone exception.

[Jarius]

I don't mind him switching up what spot in the order people hit in as much as switching up who plays every day. Very pleased to this point.

[MetEdDawg]

Yeah anyone saying that we have a consistent lineup is nuts. Just because the same guys are in it doesn't mean it's consistent. If I bat 3rd on Friday, 5th on Saturday, and 6th on Sunday, I have 3 completely different plate approaches each game. That's not consistent.

[Todd4State]

That's hard to believe that Cohen has the most consistent starting lineup in the SEC.

#Cohening #Meddler

I've been telling people for how long now that Cohen isn't the only one to make changes to the lineup?

[RocketCityDawg]

Yeah anyone saying that we have a consistent lineup is nuts. Just because the same guys are in it doesn't mean it's consistent. If I bat 3rd on Friday, 5th on Saturday, and 6th on Sunday, I have 3 completely different plate approaches each game. That's not consistent.

No you don't. That's insane to believe that. Your approach is not dictated by your spot in the order. It's dictated by the situation in the game which is completely independent of your place in the batting order.

[engie]

Yeah anyone saying that we have a consistent lineup is nuts. Just because the same guys are in it doesn't mean it's consistent. If I bat 3rd on Friday, 5th on Saturday, and 6th on Sunday, I have 3 completely different plate approaches each game. That's not consistent.

I normally really enjoy your posts, but this is insane.

[Coach34]

No you don't. That's insane to believe that. Your approach is not dictated by your spot in the order. It's dictated by the situation in the game which is completely independent of your place in the batting order.

What???? Your approach hitting 1st is far different than hitting 4th....an approach in the 8-9 spot is different from hitting 5th

[maroonmania]

Yeah anyone saying that we have a consistent lineup is nuts. Just because the same guys are in it doesn't mean it's consistent. If I bat 3rd on Friday, 5th on Saturday, and 6th on Sunday, I have 3 completely different plate approaches each game. That's not consistent.

As I've stated before, its moving people around in the infield that bothers me the most, even moreso than the batting order. But its gotten better. He is leaving Collins at 3rd now, for better or worse and mostly playing LA and RG at SS and 2nd. I don't mind the OF rotating as much because they don't have as many things to keep up with out there and plays to make as infielders do. But in summary, even if you are playing the same basic 8 guys but rarely play them in the same position in the field or bat them in the same order, then there is nothing really that consistent about that.

[smootness]

What???? Your approach hitting 1st is far different than hitting 4th....an approach in the 8-9 spot is different from hitting 5th

No, it isn't. At least, it shouldn't be.

[MetEdDawg]

What???? Your approach hitting 1st is far different than hitting 4th....an approach in the 8-9 spot is different from hitting 5th

This is why baseball season is unbearable on this board. People who coach baseball (I coach 7A in high school here in Alabama) get it and teach it and understand that there are completely different approaches based on your spot in the lineup. People who don't sit on here and moan and complain and don't understand why certain things happen. They just get pissed.

There are some things Cohen does that I don't get as bent out of shape about as most on here. Constant changes in lineup position is one thing that I do get mad about and it's now apparent that a decent number of people on here don't even understand that.

I would love to know the baseball playing and coaching experience of anyone who thinks approaches don't change at the plate based on where you hit in the lineup. My guess is you would have little to none.

[smootness]

This just in: the things everyone criticizes Cohen for are things just about every college coach does. I'm not saying they're all correct decisions, but they're par for the course in college managers.

I went to see Kyle Lewis play at Mercer, and their coach bunted constantly. They were all dumb decisions and basically all hurt their ability to score runs, but they still did it.

[smootness]

Why do you think guys in the pros stay in the same spot?? And why do you think when they are slumping that coaches move them? It's not because they suck, it's because a different spot in a lineup requires a different mental approach and that can sometimes help hitters see the game differently and find some success there. Coaches do those things for a reason and if you think lineup position doesn't affect your plate approach, you 100% don't know baseball.

So we're now determining what is smart based on what pro managers do? Guess what, pro managers are dumb, too. Fredi Gonzalez once guessed that Jordan Schafer's .280ish OBP was better than Jason Heyward's .360ish OBP without the stats in front of him. And both guys played for him on a daily basis.

Baseball managers at all levels are way behind the curve on many things.

[Coach34]

This is why baseball season is unbearable on this board. People who coach baseball (I coach 7A in high school here in Alabama) get it and teach it and understand that there are completely different approaches based on your spot in the lineup. People who don't sit on here and moan and complain and don't understand why certain things happen. They just get pissed.

There are some things Cohen does that I don't get as bent out of shape about as most on here. Constant changes in lineup position is one thing that I do get mad about and it's now apparent that a decent number of people on here don't even understand that.

I would love to know the baseball playing and coaching experience of anyone who thinks approaches don't change at the plate based on where you hit in the lineup. My guess is you would have little to none.

We have 4 guys I know on the board that have won a state title or a state coach of the year trophy- including myself. We have one that has served as a college baseball GA. We have 3 guys I know of that are former State baseball players- but 2 rarely post. One thing I see from these posters- they pretty much agree for the most part. Welcome to the group

[Taog Redloh]

It's starting to become pretty clear that it doesn't take much sense to coach high school baseball.

[MetEdDawg]

It's starting to become pretty clear that it doesn't take much sense to coach high school baseball.

I know you are a regular, but how much coaching and playing experience do you have? If you have a bunch I'll defer to the fact that coaches can have different styles. If not, I think I'll have made my point.

Again, I've seen a few posters on here that disagree. Would love to know your baseball playing and coaching background.

[RocketCityDawg]

What???? Your approach hitting 1st is far different than hitting 4th....an approach in the 8-9 spot is different from hitting 5th

No one is being switched from 1st to 4th, Coach34. Robson has hit 1st every game. The 8-9 spots have almost entirely been populated by the same guys too. The post that I replied to mentioned 3rd, 5th, and 6th. NO! Not any different approach there. A different approach may be called on by the game situation but not by your lineup spot.

[maroonmania]

This is why baseball season is unbearable on this board. People who coach baseball (I coach 7A in high school here in Alabama) get it and teach it and understand that there are completely different approaches based on your spot in the lineup. People who don't sit on here and moan and complain and don't understand why certain things happen. They just get pissed.

There are some things Cohen does that I don't get as bent out of shape about as most on here. Constant changes in lineup position is one thing that I do get mad about and it's now apparent that a decent number of people on here don't even understand that.

I would love to know the baseball playing and coaching experience of anyone who thinks approaches don't change at the plate based on where you hit in the lineup. My guess is you would have little to none.

I don't really have a dog in the fight but I can kind of see both sides. I mean you set the order for your big sticks to knock in runs and for your high OBP guys to get on in front of them. But however, if your first 3 guys all make outs in the first inning, then when your cleanup guy leads off in the second he is not really in a cleanup role at that point, he is more in a leadoff role but still may not look to walk by working the count or put the ball on the ground just because those aren't his strengths.

[Taog Redloh]

I know you are a regular, but how much coaching and playing experience do you have? If you have a bunch I'll defer to the fact that coaches can have different styles. If not, I think I'll have made my point.

Again, I've seen a few posters on here that disagree. Would love to know your baseball playing and coaching background.
Played in HS, nothing beyond that.

Trust me, being a regular message board poster does not instill competency in anyone. I judge by the content of the posts.

[RocketCityDawg]

I don't really have a dog in the fight but I can kind of see both sides. I mean you set the order for your big sticks to knock in runs and for your high OBP guys to get on in front of them. But however, if your first 3 guys all make outs in the first inning, then when your cleanup guy leads off in the second he is not really in a cleanup role at that point, he is more in a leadoff role but still may not look to walk by working the count or put the ball on the ground just because those aren't his strengths.

Exactly! The game situation dictates the approach along with your skill set. Just because I'm in the leadoff spot doesn't mean I'm fast and need to bunt for a hit and steal. Just because I'm in the 4 hole doesn't mean I need to swing for the fences every time.

[BB30]

I wouldn't say there is a different approach. You might be asked to do different things but the approach should never change by the spot in the lineup you hit. Obviously guys that can drive in runs will be in 3-4-5-8 but that doesnt mean their approach at the plate is different just that their skill set is different. Naturally your lead off will be a guy that finds his way on a lot and can run but again that is a skill set not an approach. Every hitters approach in general is hunt the FB adjust to off speed. Just because your 3/4/5 guys can hit it out of the park and drive the gaps does not mean you want them swinging at everything they see just like you don't want your lead off passing up a FB in a FB count.

[AROB44]

It all depends on what the definition of "it" is......

[QuadrupleOption]

I know you are a regular, but how much coaching and playing experience do you have? If you have a bunch I'll defer to the fact that coaches can have different styles. If not, I think I'll have made my point.

Again, I've seen a few posters on here that disagree. Would love to know your baseball playing and coaching background.

I have no coaching experience to speak of, but I'm not really sure how your overall batting approach changes depending on where you are in the order.

Wouldn't it depend more on things like skill set, # of outs, # of men on base, and whether your team is ahead or behind? If the person batting 4th in the lineup comes up and there's no one on, wouldn't his approach differ than if he came to bat with 2 people on?

I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but as someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of baseball, it seems like the primary purpose of batting is to get on base and drive runs in. That shouldn't change no matter where you are in the order.

[Jarius]

Usually certain batters in the order have certain skill sets, but your approach at the plate is (or should be for most hitters) dependent upon the situation you are in during that particular at bat. If you come up with a man on second and no outs, hit a ground ball to the right side and move him to third base. If you come up with a runner at 3rd and less than 2 outs with the infield in, try to hit it in the air deep enough to score the run. If the infield is back, hit it on the ground.

[Todd4State]

This is why baseball season is unbearable on this board. People who coach baseball (I coach 7A in high school here in Alabama) get it and teach it and understand that there are completely different approaches based on your spot in the lineup. People who don't sit on here and moan and complain and don't understand why certain things happen. They just get pissed.

There are some things Cohen does that I don't get as bent out of shape about as most on here. Constant changes in lineup position is one thing that I do get mad about and it's now apparent that a decent number of people on here don't even understand that.

I would love to know the baseball playing and coaching experience of anyone who thinks approaches don't change at the plate based on where you hit in the lineup. My guess is you would have little to none.

I respect what you are saying but I would also imagine that with high school players where they bat is going to matter more to them and be more of an issue with them just because they aren't as mature as players and adults compared to a professional hitter or even a SEC level college player.

And there is no question that hitting leadoff is much different than hitting clean up or ninth or whatever in terms of approach. Although I would say that hitting leadoff is probably the most specialized of any of the spots in the order probably followed by the number two hitter. Hitting approach also changes based on the in game situation and that probably affects how a hitter approaches an at bat more than anything- or at least it should. If you have runners on second and third and less than two outs you want to at the very least hit a deep fly ball or hit the ball to the right side of the infield for example- and that doesn't change no matter where you are hitting in the lineup.

One thing I do know is as far as the minors go sometimes managers will change where a hitter bats in the lineup to see how they handle it on a professional level and also to challenge them as a player to see how they react to hitting in a prime spot or how they handle being dropped in the order. And while I have never coached high school baseball, I have heard minor league managers talk about that. So, to me what Cohen does from that standpoint will help them moving forward once they leave MSU if they continue their career beyond MSU. That's one big reason why I've never been too upset about moving guys around. Plus it's not like we have Reid Humphreys batting leadoff or something crazy like that. (Yet)

[engie]

What???? Your approach hitting 1st is far different than hitting 4th....an approach in the 8-9 spot is different from hitting 5th

How many times in a game does that player hit first?

Sure -- there are some minor situational differences in what you are asked to do based on who is behind you, etc... But to pretend that we need a set lineup 1-9 to be able to perform is asinine. If it bothers guys so much that they can't perform while hitting 6th because they want to hit 4th -- they are pussies that are going to crumble under the first real adversity they see anyway. Not who I want at MSU. Not a guy that will see success under Cohen.

[engie]

No one is being switched from 1st to 4th, Coach34. Robson has hit 1st every game. The 8-9 spots have almost entirely been populated by the same guys too. The post that I replied to mentioned 3rd, 5th, and 6th. NO! Not any different approach there. A different approach may be called on by the game situation but not by your lineup spot.

Bingo

[Dawg62]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/167898892/mccutchen-moves-to-second-in-pirates-order

McCutchen embraces move to No. 2 in order
Pirates slugger had second-most at-bats in NL last year with two outs and bases empty

[shoeless joe]

How many times in a game does that player hit first?

Sure -- there are some minor situational differences in what you are asked to do based on who is behind you, etc... But to pretend that we need a set lineup 1-9 to be able to perform is asinine. If it bothers guys so much that they can't perform while hitting 6th because they want to hit 4th -- they are pussies that are going to crumble under the first real adversity they see anyway. Not who I want at MSU. Not a guy that will see success under Cohen.

This is it.

Also, it's not as much approach...although that can situationally change...as it is the fact if what you are going to see from a pitcher depending on where someone hits. Especially on the high school level but even as one climbs the ladder. A 7,8,9 guy is more likely to get a fastball, especially, in fastball counts, because it's assumed they're not as good. A top to mid order guy is more likely to see off speed in a hitters count. Who is behind or ahead of a guy could determine pitch selection as well.

I don't get as bent out of shape about the line up as most. I think it could have an affect but not so much on approach. I can see a comfort factor coming into play but I never once remember being pissed about where I hit because I wasn't "comfortable" in that spot.

[sleepy dawg]

Our lineup is the most consistent of all... consistently different.

[Coach34]

I don't get as bent out of shape about the line up as most. I think it could have an affect but not so much on approach. I can see a comfort factor coming into play but I never once remember being pissed about where I hit because I wasn't "comfortable" in that spot.

Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.

My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball

Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line

[engie]

Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.

My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball

Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line

So what you are saying is -- a little forced adversity turns them into head case ******s? It embarrassed you so bad you wanted to take your ball and go home?

Every single point in that post describes guys that I do not want at MSU. Not under this regime.

There was a time I was 4th every day behind a 3 time collegiate all-American. 2 spots behind an all-sec guy that holds a bunch of records. With all that protection and all those ducks on the pond, comfort actually made me less of a hitter. I thrived off adversity and perceived slights. Played better pissed off and doubted. THAT is what is/will be successful under this regime at MSU. If guys need all the coddling you are talking about -- they were dumb asses to sign with MSU in the first place. They've had half their lifetime now to know exactly what they were going to get from Cohen.

Everyone knows who Cohen is. Yet a bunch of you suddenly up and decided they want him to be Ron Polk. I just don't get it.

[shoeless joe]

Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.

My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball

Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line

100% sure I stated that comfort could be a factor. I just don't think it is THE factor in individual success or failure. If it is then there are other factors that will affect success as well.

I could sit here and name off all these D1, professional, and big league guys I played with, against, for, and coached to try to further my point...but the fact still remains that there are multiple successful approaches to the game and the one who claims to know it all generally knows the least.

[Coach34]

So what you are saying is -- a little forced adversity turns them into head case ******s? It embarrassed you so bad you wanted to take your ball and go home?

Every single point in that post describes guys that I do not want at MSU. Not under this regime.

There was a time I was 4th every day behind a 3 time collegiate all-American. 2 spots behind an all-sec guy that holds a bunch of records. With all that protection and all those ducks on the pond, comfort actually made me less of a hitter. I thrived off adversity and perceived slights. Played better pissed off and doubted. THAT is what is/will be successful under this regime at MSU. If guys need all the coddling you are talking about -- they were dumb asses to sign with MSU in the first place. They've had half their lifetime now to know exactly what they were going to get from Cohen.

Everyone knows who Cohen is. Yet a bunch of you suddenly up and decided they want him to be Ron Polk. I just don't get it.

whether you want them at State or not- that's the reality. And no matter who you recruit-
you will have those guys on your team. As long as Cohen plays musical chairs line-ups- we will continue to be an up and down team. It's not a coincidence the best team he has had is the one he finally quit moving around constantly in 2013.

[BrunswickDawg]

Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.

My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball

Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line

Definitely played with guys like that. Batting order never bothered me. Most of the time I was a 1 or 2. If I got bumped down, I usually took it as a challenge to get my ass out of a slump to earn that top of the order spot. I was a super utility guy, and could handle any position move - except moving in-game to SS. I was not a natural SS and that throw could play tricks with me if I didn't have a lot of warm up pre-game at the position. THAT would get me out of any comfort zone, and usually effect my hitting and fielding. I was thinking too much.

[Big4Dawg]

http://s18.postimg.org/dp6ol9589/Capture.jpg

So looking at this, no one is moving from 2nd to 8th as some of you are describing. We are talking about 1-2 spots. The biggest is Lowe and that is because he has started hitting better. Do you think Kruger matters if he hits 2nd or 3rd? Collins cares if he's hitting 4th or 5th? Hump cares if 5th or 6th? LA cares if 8th or 9th? No. This is a stupid argument.

[I seen it dawg]

So what you are saying is -- a little forced adversity turns them into head case ******s? It embarrassed you so bad you wanted to take your ball and go home?

Every single point in that post describes guys that I do not want at MSU. Not under this regime.

There was a time I was 4th every day behind a 3 time collegiate all-American. 2 spots behind an all-sec guy that holds a bunch of records. With all that protection and all those ducks on the pond, comfort actually made me less of a hitter. I thrived off adversity and perceived slights. Played better pissed off and doubted. THAT is what is/will be successful under this regime at MSU. If guys need all the coddling you are talking about -- they were dumb asses to sign with MSU in the first place. They've had half their lifetime now to know exactly what they were going to get from Cohen.

Everyone knows who Cohen is. Yet a bunch of you suddenly up and decided they want him to be Ron Polk. I just don't get it.

Then you're gonna have a hard time fielding a full team. I get what you are saying about being mentally tough but moving around does affect some players, not all but some, and it's the smart thing to do to identify them and either force them into a move and be consistent with it or make them comfortable. It all has to work in the framework of the entire offense.

To me it's not black and white. You can do what 34 did which is knowing the offense will better with a move and forcing it in them- but you can't bounce them around while doing it - OR you can placate them bc you know the offense will be better with them hitting in their comfort spot. All about what's going to make the offense click better.

[I seen it dawg]

http://s18.postimg.org/dp6ol9589/Capture.jpg

So looking at this, no one is moving from 2nd to 8th as some of you are describing. We are talking about 1-2 spots. The biggest is Lowe and that is because he has started hitting better. Do you think Kruger matters if he hits 2nd or 3rd? Collins cares if he's hitting 4th or 5th? Hump cares if 5th or 6th? LA cares if 8th or 9th? No. This is a stupid argument.

It's not a stupid argument. Those particular players might not care....but then again they might. It's baseball and it's there everyday.

[Coach34]

http://s18.postimg.org/dp6ol9589/Capture.jpg

So looking at this, no one is moving from 2nd to 8th as some of you are describing. We are talking about 1-2 spots. The biggest is Lowe and that is because he has started hitting better. Do you think Kruger matters if he hits 2nd or 3rd? Collins cares if he's hitting 4th or 5th? Hump cares if 5th or 6th? LA cares if 8th or 9th? No. This is a stupid argument.

seriously? We had guys here arguing last week Kruger had to go back to the 2 hole because he was struggling to hit in the 3 hole at .200- but was batting .500 in the 2 hole. You guys need to get you stand on a point and stick with it

[Big4Dawg]

http://s11.postimg.org/fovx3yecj/USC.jpg

USC does the same thing. I looked at 5-6 top 25 teams and they were the only other one I could find

[Dawg62]

Joe Maddon consistently uses over 140 different lineups in a 162 game season. This goes back to his time in the AL with consistent DH's. He's a pretty good manager.

[I seen it dawg]

National league lineup changes everyday.

[RAYn_Man]

I didn't have time to read all the posts before this, but main things (in order) that dictate your approach are your 1. Skill set and 2. Situation. I can promise you that Adam Frazier never went to the plate trying to hit a bomb, and it wasn't because he hit leadoff every game. It's because he was damn good at what he did. If Cohen put Frazier in the 4 hole, he would still hit like Adam Frazier. If you want to argue that Cohen should change the lineup based on people's skill sets, then that's one thing. But to say the players should adjust based on where they are hitting in the lineup is ludicrous.

[Dawg62]

National league lineup changes everyday.

Hence why I said, "This goes back to his time in the AL with consistent DH's".

[Dawg62]

If Cohen put Frazier in the 4 hole, he would still hit like Adam Frazier. But to say the players should adjust based on where they are hitting in the lineup is ludicrous.

Exactly right. See: Brett Pirtle was our cleanup hitter during our Omaha run year

[engie]

Then you're gonna have a hard time fielding a full team. I get what you are saying about being mentally tough but moving around does affect some players, not all but some, and it's the smart thing to do to identify them and either force them into a move and be consistent with it or make them comfortable. It all has to work in the framework of the entire offense.
I disagree. We recruited plenty of the type 2 players you are talking about though. And that's a large part of why we saw it fall apart last year.


To me it's not black and white. You can do what 34 did which is knowing the offense will better with a move and forcing it in them- but you can't bounce them around while doing it - OR you can placate them bc you know the offense will be better with them hitting in their comfort spot. All about what's going to make the offense click better.

Sure it can be done both ways. But you've got to be true to who you are -- and recruit who you are. We got away from that and it cost us dearly. I want to get back to it -- and this freshman class has an awful lot of that out of the gate while the juniors are still trying to grow into it(and I'm still not convinced they really have it). Cohen needs the opposite personality type to have success that Polk generally needed, especially later on. That's been well known from day 1. Was well known before he every stepped foot in the door here. He is NOT a coach that can take any group of guys and go win with them. That was proven long ago. He needs his guys. Type 1 players. I'm advocating his guys. He is going to find more/better success being true to himself and recruiting to who he is than he would trying to change who he is so he could coddle "elite" players through adversity.

[Coach34]

Look Engie- I'm glad you are/were such a ball of fire Type 1 player- but on a team of 30 guys- you are going to have all types of personalities. Our problem last year was more about youth and lack of talent than it was type 1 vs Type 2. Hell, there are guys that have different personalities when they pitch vs when they hit. Baseball is just different. A good coach learns how his players react to certain situations to get a read on what theycan/will do- that has to be done. I'm just of the opinion that Cohen takes this to a ridiculous extreme.

Again- I'll repeat- we are better this year because we are more experienced and have had an infusion of talent- not because we recruited a bunch of Type A guys

[Coach34]

and let's also remember- Cohen had a losing season just 2 years after a NC appearance. Its not like he cant be questioned on his methods because of his 15 year NCAA Tourney streak or anything like that. There are valid concerns in our program and his job is on the line this year. Now then- while a little inconsistent, it looks like he is going to answer the bell and thats great. But everything still isnt rosey

[I seen it dawg]

Engie all I want is type one players. But hard to find 35 of them.

[engie]

Look Engie- I'm glad you are/were such a ball of fire Type 1 player- but on a team of 30 guys- you are going to have all types of personalities. Our problem last year was more about youth and lack of talent than it was type 1 vs Type 2. Hell, there are guys that have different personalities when they pitch vs when they hit. Baseball is just different. A good coach learns how his players react to certain situations to get a read on what theycan/will do- that has to be done. I'm just of the opinion that Cohen takes this to a ridiculous extreme.

Again- I'll repeat- we are better this year because we are more experienced and have had an infusion of talent- not because we recruited a bunch of Type A guys

So do you believe in clutch or not? Are you will Jamesing and arguing it doesn't exist? And I disagree with the all types thing. Maybe in the stages of the game prior to when you really recruit. Maybe even in the situations when your recruiting reach is limited. But a program with the ability to cherrypick national talent is not confined by the same limitations. If you are recruiting how you should and doing your due diligence on players, you find the Pollo, etc gamers. Jake Mangum isn't winning games for us strictly by his talent -- he has a little something more. A lot of the freshmen do.

[Coach34]

So do you believe in clutch or not? Are you will Jamesing and arguing it doesn't exist? And I disagree with the all types thing. Maybe in the stages of the game prior to when you really recruit. Maybe even in the situations when your recruiting reach is limited. But a program with the ability to cherrypick national talent is not confined by the same limitations. If you are recruiting how you should and doing your due diligence on players, you find the Pollo, etc gamers. Jake Mangum isn't winning games for us strictly by his talent -- he has a little something more. A lot of the freshmen do.

I totally believe in clutch- there is absolutely an "IT factor". But there are levels of "IT" and all types of personalities.

Mangum's Dad was an NFL player. He is talented and comes from a talented family. He is going to be a really good player for us. But ya know what? Mangum doesnt have Hunter Renfroe talent- but will still be better his Fr and Soph years. The thing is- we are doing with Mangum exactly what we should be- batting him 2nd in the order- PH AB's, defense subs to work him in. Thats what u do with a talented Freshman.

Having a guy hit 3rd one day and then 7th the next??? Thats bullshit and bad coaching. Bunting or Fake Bunting with your leading hitter- thats bad coaching. Not playing Cody Brown vs RHP's- thats bad coaching. Not playing Gordon a little more when Lowe is struggling- bad coaching.

We were the WORST team in the SEC last year- Cohen deserves criticism until he proves differently

[Political Hack]

5 different people starting at Cather.

5 different people have batted in the 2 hole, four in the 3-hole, and three in the 4-hole. That's a lot of churn in the heart of your order. I can see changing the 6-9 or even the 5 hole a little, but having to experiment that much during games isn't what I'd ideally like to see.

I can tell you my 1, 3, and 4 hole probably wouldn't change all year. Robson, Kruger, Collins...on this team Cody would be my 2-hole. 1-4 would be set. Anytime you get Robson or Cody on the bags with Kriger and Collins coming up you're in business. I could see switching Collins and Low in the 4/5 holes, but otherwise that lineup would likely produce more runs than any other 1-4 combo.

[Coach34]

5 different people starting at Cather.

5 different people have batted in the 2 hole, four in the 3-hole, and three in the 4-hole. That's a lot of churn in the heart of your order. I can see changing the 6-9 or even the 5 hole a little, but having to experiment that much during games isn't what I'd ideally like to see.

I can tell you my 1, 3, and 4 hole probably wouldn't change all year. Robson, Kruger, Collins...on this team Cody would be my 2-hole. 1-4 would be set. Anytime you get Robson or Cody on the bags with Kriger and Collins coming up you're in business. I could see switching Collins and Low in the 4/5 holes, but otherwise that lineup would likely produce more runs than any other 1-4 combo.

exactly- outstanding post. If you cant understand that- I'm sorry

[RocketDawg]

#Cohening #Meddler

I've been telling people for how long now that Cohen isn't the only one to make changes to the lineup?

But isn't Cohen supposed to meddle? He's the head coach. That's what we pay him the big bucks for.

[Todd4State]

But isn't Cohen supposed to meddle? He's the head coach. That's what we pay him the big bucks for.


I don't think meddle is used as a term of endearment in this case.

[Todd4State]

5 different people starting at Cather.

5 different people have batted in the 2 hole, four in the 3-hole, and three in the 4-hole. That's a lot of churn in the heart of your order. I can see changing the 6-9 or even the 5 hole a little, but having to experiment that much during games isn't what I'd ideally like to see.

I can tell you my 1, 3, and 4 hole probably wouldn't change all year. Robson, Kruger, Collins...on this team Cody would be my 2-hole. 1-4 would be set. Anytime you get Robson or Cody on the bags with Kriger and Collins coming up you're in business. I could see switching Collins and Low in the 4/5 holes, but otherwise that lineup would likely produce more runs than any other 1-4 combo.

It would be four guys at catcher or less had Lovelady not been injured. Same with Kruger really because then I would highly suspect we wouldn't have used Stovall behind the plate had our main guys remained healthy.

The thing about this team is we have some guys that have some wide offensive splits- it absolutely makes sense to move Rooker and Humphreys up in the lineup against LH pitching because they kill it. It makes sense to drop them down in the order when they face right handed pitching just like it makes sense to move Cody Brown up against RH pitching. So, I don't know that keeping the same guys 1-5 makes the best sense with our current team.

[Homedawg]

One thing I will have to disagree w that gets posted quite often is Lowe is playing too much. Hell, the guy has the fewest k's in our regulars by a pretty good amount percentage wise. He has also been super snake bit, he's hit more hard hit balls right at people for outs in a month than most college guys do in a year. Has he had a bad game or two? Yea, who doesn't. But he's not the k threat Gordon is and a much better defender and quite frankly, doesn't have shit to show for how well he has hit up to this point. Now he might tank from here on out, but as far as I'm concerned he needs to be the EVERYDAY 1b until he goes completely in the shitter. What kills me about this board is Cohen is the meddler, he might be but for every meddler remark we get we have every other person wanting Lowe to sit, some. Holland to play SOME. etc etc. I have no issue w brown playing against rhp or any other lineup change to get the hot guy in there. However, it's impossible to do this and not be a "meddler". And no, I don't agree w all Cohen does. Fake bunting Kruger up 2-0 and then actually trying to bunt him on 2-1 I about jumped out of my chair. But this year of all years, so far, he's done way less than before. We have some struggles ahead, trust me they are coming. But this is a way better club than we've had the past 2 years. No doubt.

[engie]

So if he's hosting this year -- do you admit you lost track of what actually matters seeking something to complain about because you're still mad about a team that isn't here anymore? Because that is how it looks to me.

Yeah -- last year sucked. And the majority of that suckitude can be placed at the staff's feet. People keep harping on hitting -- which was prettymuch SEC average last year. While ignoring pitching -- which was DFL in the league last year. That's where the mismanagement happened.

We are one week into conference play -- and you are the ringleader of the lineup complainers. Let that sink in. I could have prewritten these threads for everyone 3 months ago. Or 3 years ago with incredibly high accuracy. It's predictable and it never ceases. But the fact that you are knee deep in it is surprising to me. Like you thought the approach would suddenly change this year when the whole team has the potential to swing it. Everyone keeps complaining about guys being on the bench -- without giving clear answers on how to get them in the game in a way to make the team better.

People are crazy. Want a consistent lineup -- get it -- and start tweaking said lineup. Just a continual loop.

And on the catcher thing -- it's prettymuch like accusing Dan of QB meddling because he started 3 different guys in 2013. One guy has a role and gets injured. 2nd guy has experience but it is mixed and he's still got a hand issue. 3rd guy is a pedigree true freshman. 4th guy is an elite juco transfer from across the country with an injury preventing him from playing the position. 5th guy is a utility guy that can do a little bit of everything. I still don't see the problem with us having an embarrassment of riches at the position.

[Todd4State]

One thing I will have to disagree w that gets posted quite often is Lowe is playing too much. Hell, the guy has the fewest k's in our regulars by a pretty good amount percentage wise. He has also been super snake bit, he's hit more hard hit balls right at people for outs in a month than most college guys do in a year. Has he had a bad game or two? Yea, who doesn't. But he's not the k threat Gordon is and a much better defender and quite frankly, doesn't have shit to show for how well he has hit up to this point. Now he might tank from here on out, but as far as I'm concerned he needs to be the EVERYDAY 1b until he goes completely in the shitter. What kills me about this board is Cohen is the meddler, he might be but for every meddler remark we get we have every other person wanting Lowe to sit, some. Holland to play SOME. etc etc. I have no issue w brown playing against rhp or any other lineup change to get the hot guy in there. However, it's impossible to do this and not be a "meddler". And no, I don't agree w all Cohen does. Fake bunting Kruger up 2-0 and then actually trying to bunt him on 2-1 I about jumped out of my chair. But this year of all years, so far, he's done way less than before. We have some struggles ahead, trust me they are coming. But this is a way better club than we've had the past 2 years. No doubt.

I agree with every word that you said. Especially about Lowe. Odds are he is going to start finding some holes out there sooner than later.

And the thing that is getting ignored is again according to Bo Bounds Cohen is apparently not as bad as most college coaches when it comes to settling on a lineup.



I think what it comes down to at the end of the day is it's considered "meddling" if it's a lineup decision the poster doesn't agree with- and therefore doesn't make sense to the poster. Whereas if it's a lineup decision that the poster thinks is a good idea it's just that- a good idea. Even though that in and of itself is a lineup change.

[Todd4State]

So if he's hosting this year -- do you admit you lost track of what actually matters seeking something to complain about because you're still mad about a team that isn't here anymore? Because that is how it looks to me.

Yeah -- last year sucked. And the majority of that suckitude can be placed at the staff's feet. People keep harping on hitting -- which was prettymuch SEC average last year. While ignoring pitching -- which was DFL in the league last year. That's where the mismanagement happened.

We are one week into conference play -- and you are the ringleader of the lineup complainers. Let that sink in. I could have prewritten these threads for everyone 3 months ago. Or 3 years ago with incredibly high accuracy. It's predictable and it never ceases. But the fact that you are knee deep in it is surprising to me. Like you thought the approach would suddenly change this year when the whole team has the potential to swing it. Everyone keeps complaining about guys being on the bench -- without giving clear answers on how to get them in the game in a way to make the team better.

People are crazy. Want a consistent lineup -- get it -- and start tweaking said lineup. Just a continual loop.

And on the catcher thing -- it's prettymuch like accusing Dan of QB meddling because he started 3 different guys in 2013. One guy has a role and gets injured. 2nd guy has experience but it is mixed and he's still got a hand issue. 3rd guy is a pedigree true freshman. 4th guy is an elite juco transfer from across the country with an injury preventing him from playing the position. 5th guy is a utility guy that can do a little bit of everything. I still don't see the problem with us having an embarrassment of riches at the position.

You hit the nail on the head about the pitching last year and the offense last year. I am 95% confident that if we had used Laster where we could use him on Friday and Sunday like we used Lindgren and started Hudson, Sexton, and Preston Brown and then used Fitts and Tatum in relief on Saturday- we probably are a 3 seed in a regional. Butch trotting Ross out there over and over only to get shelled repeatedly was just sad because he deserved better. I mean, we had a guy that is likely a first round pick on our staff last year and we barely used him.

[dawggone]

5 different people starting at Cather.

5 different people have batted in the 2 hole, four in the 3-hole, and three in the 4-hole. That's a lot of churn in the heart of your order. I can see changing the 6-9 or even the 5 hole a little, but having to experiment that much during games isn't what I'd ideally like to see.

I can tell you my 1, 3, and 4 hole probably wouldn't change all year. Robson, Kruger, Collins...on this team Cody would be my 2-hole. 1-4 would be set. Anytime you get Robson or Cody on the bags with Kriger and Collins coming up you're in business. I could see switching Collins and Low in the 4/5 holes, but otherwise that lineup would likely produce more runs than any other 1-4 combo.

I agree with your top 4 and producing runs. Robson and brown are generally .400 OBP guys and having that in front of Kruger ad Collins should produce a lot of rbi for those 2. I'm OK with putting rooker in 2 hole when facing a lefty cause he has destroyed left handed pitching and dropping brown to the 6 or 7 hole then. Not really sure why brown got a stigma for not hitting lefties cause he hit them just fine last year in the leadoff spot most of the year. Mangum will also be a good candidate for the 2 hole as well, he plays like brown and will probably be an on base percentage guy as well. Was curious as to why brown not playing more so I took a look at stats and really can't figure out why he's out of the lineup so much. Compared him to Humphries since they both play left and found out this, 1st 277 career at bats:
Hump .260 avg, 71 hits, 16 2b, 1 3b, 7 HR, 48 rbi, 30 bb, 40 runs
Brown .285 avg, 86 hits, 20 2b, 6 3b, 4 HR, 39 rbi, 53 bb, 66 runs

Don't know if it's because Hump is more draftable or what (maybe Todd can shed more light on this) personally don't care who is draftable or not, I just want bulldogs to win no matter who plays. Maybe Holland gets some more swings this weekend, had a good night at plate Tuesday, albeit against a very weak team.
Hope we get Kruger behind the plate this weekend, he is very good defensively plus good hitter. Oh well that's enough of my rambling, thoughts anyone?

[dawggone]

+1 here as well, Lowe has barreled plenty of balls up and just has been unfortunate. I'm OK with that regardless of average. They will begin to find holes and I gotta believe he will hit with more power, he's a big frame guy, just like to see him pull the ball a little more, I think that would produce more power for him.

[dawggone]

You hit the nail on the head about the pitching last year and the offense last year. I am 95% confident that if we had used Laster where we could use him on Friday and Sunday like we used Lindgren and started Hudson, Sexton, and Preston Brown and then used Fitts and Tatum in relief on Saturday- we probably are a 3 seed in a regional. Butch trotting Ross out there over and over only to get shelled repeatedly was just sad because he deserved better. I mean, we had a guy that is likely a first round pick on our staff last year and we barely used him.

Ditto, Our bullpen was our biggest issue last year, mainly not throwing strikes, getting behind in counts and not competing. Our overall hitting is better than last year mostly due to talent but some is letting players use bats they like not those forced addidas bats, those things were crap.

[Mjoelner34]

Ditto, Our bullpen was our biggest issue last year, mainly not throwing strikes, getting behind in counts and not competing.

And a junk-ball pitcher who, after the low seam ball came out, could only throw straight fastballs that topped out about 78mph.