If you take away Howland's recruiting...

[Coach34]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

[Liverpooldawg]

Good lord did you expect anything more? We basically commited basketball suicide and then suffered the invetable consequences. Howland has never had a winning record at any stop in his first year. It's hard to overestimate how bad a team he inherited this time. The "veteran team" crap means nothing when a team is as bad as we were. That you consider this year a failure says more about you than it does Howland. What an.......well.

[BayouDawg]

Yea if we could have just won the two stinkers against southern and UMKC and then gotten 2 or 3 more conference wins (one of the A&M games, the Bama game at home, and the Tennessee game maybe) we would probably be NIT bound. Still very excited about the future of the program though

[Coach34]

Good lord did you expect anything more? .

You continue to be a moron

We were preseason top 6 in the SEC- so many, many people expected us to be better with what we had
We added an All-SEC Freshman in Q
We added one of the Country's top recruits

The fact you accept this shows alot about you I assure you

[Coach34]

Still very excited about the future of the program though

This is a different point and I agree on that. But that doesnt change the fact that his 1st season was a failure

[Dawg61]

Only thing Howland failed at is signing Tookie and keeping Black.

[BayouDawg]

This is a different point and I agree on that. But that doesnt change the fact that his 1st season was a failure

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed. I don't know what was going on at the beginning of the year in the locker room but there was definitely something going on and it hurt the chemistry. The main thing I wanna see moving forward is better ball movement. I'm a big Spurs fan so I'm all about passing up a good shot for a great shot. And I think Howland will teach that

[Liverpooldawg]

You continue to be a moron

We were preseason top 6 in the SEC- so many, many people expected us to be better with what we had
We added an All-SEC Freshman in Q
We added one of the Country's top recruits

The fact you accept this shows alot about you I assure you

Accept this? So you want to fire Howland now? Really? Seriously dude most sane basketball people I know expected what we did , at best. We had nothing at all coming back. We had two freshmen guards with some talent and one guy, MAYBE, inside. If you expected this team to do any better than it did you were delusional. I do think Ware and Sword had they had at least competent coaching prior to Howland might have been decent players their Senior years. We have one more who might make a decent back up before he is through. You are, and always have been, clueless about MSU basketball. You have been wrong at every single turn. Hopefully we can begin to recover from our self imposed death penalty next year.

[Coach34]

Accept this? So you want to fire Howland now? Really? Seriously dude most sane basketball people I know expected what we did , at best. We had nothing at all coming back. We had two freshmen guards with some talent and one guy, MAYBE, inside. If you expected this team to do any better than it did you were delusional. I do think Ware and Sword had they had at least competent coaching prior to Howland might have been decent players their Senior years. We have one more who might make a decent back up before he is through. You are, and always have been, clueless about MSU basketball. You have been wrong at every single turn. Hopefully we can begin to recover from our self imposed death penalty next year.

We were predicted to be in the top 6 of the SEC in basketball this season- so aGAIN- many, many people expected us to be much better than we were. Thats not some made up bullshit that you are spewing- I'm talking facts. We had an All-SEC player returning in Sword- Fact. We added an All-SEC Freshman in Q- Fact. We added one of the country's top Guard recruits- Fact

Facts are that nobody expected us to be this bad

[Eric Nies Grind Time]

Probably should have been an NIT team this season. It's not like Ray would have taken this team to the tourney or recruited a quarter as well as Howland is. Overall I am fine with where the program is at the moment.

[Liverpooldawg]

We were predicted to be in the top 6 of the SEC in basketball this season- so aGAIN- many, many people expected us to be much better than we were. Thats not some made up bullshit that you are spewing- I'm talking facts. We had an All-SEC player returning in Sword- Fact. We added an All-SEC Freshman in Q- Fact. We added one of the country's top Guard recruits- Fact

Facts are that nobody expected us to be this bad

Expected by who? The media? The same folks we blast every year for what they expect in football? use your own brain. If you expected any better this year you were delusional. Heck my son the MSU soph (who has probably been to more MSU basketball games than you over the yeas) said we did about what we had any right to expect. IF we had had ANYTHING inside to go with Ware we might have been some better, but we didn't. ware is a decent player, but that's it. He is NOT capable of handling the inside all by himself. Very few players are. If one of those hotshot frosh had been an inside guy, then maybe. We finished about where we should have. Next year the recovery actually starts, whether that is reflected in wins or losses or not.

[msstate7]

I don't see any other way to paint this season as anything but a failure. Last year, we lost 9 games by less than 6 points, returned our core, and added 3 4*'s or better (one top 10 player)... We should won those close games this year, but we continued to lose them.

I'm not calling for Howland's head, but this year was a failure... We lost to southern and umkc for God's sake

[Liverpooldawg]

The fact is the core wasn't anything to celebrate coming back. Why in the world would THAT make you think we were going to be better? Serious question. if they had been returning sophomores then maybe, but returning Seniors that have played a LOT over the years..........come on.

[msstate7]

The fact is the core wasn't anything to celebrate coming back. Why in the world would THAT make you think we were going to be better? Serious question. if they had been returning sophomores then maybe, but returning Seniors that have played a LOT over the years..........come on.

Like I said, we lost 9 games by 6 or less last year. Add a top 10 national player and 2 4*'s... We should've won a lot of the close games this year. We won 1 more game overall and in the sec this year than last

[BayouDawg]

I don't see any other way to paint this season as anything but a failure. Last year, we lost 9 games by less than 6 points, returned our core, and added 3 4*'s or better (one top 10 player)... We should won those close games this year, but we continued to lose them.

I'm not calling for Howland's head, but this year was a failure... We lost to southern and umkc for God's sake

Yea if we just take care of business against Southern and UMKC that's 16-14 right there. Then if we could have found a way to not shit the bed in the closing minutes in just one game out of the A&M games, Bama game at home, and the tenn game then that's 17 wins. I really thought we should have been 17-13 or 18-12 personally

[Todd4State]

Like I said, we lost 9 games by 6 or less last year. Add a top 10 national player and 2 4*'s... We should've won a lot of the close games this year. We won 1 more game overall and in the sec this year than last

I think a lot of it was guys just not knowing how to win.

[bulldawg28]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

Agreed

[Dawg61]

Howland won more SEC games than Ray ever did in a season. He developed a 1st team All-SEC freshman. He signed the #5 class in the nation and now he has the opportunity to add Newman for another year on top of that class. I do not view this season as a failure even though I'm disappointed we didn't make NIT atleast. Again the only failure to me was Howland's handling of Tookie and Oliver Black. Both are decent to good players that probably are enough for us to win 5-6 more games this year. That puts us in the NIT/bubble watch.

[Thick]

No one expected Neuman to be a flop in his first year either. That top 6 was predicted by the media based on what THEIR expectations of his "one and done" performance would do combined with our seniors. Fred played his best game of the season last night. That's a little late, and you saw first hand what happens to us when we face big, physical teams with good guards look like. That being said, if you gave Howland that group for 3 years like Ray, he would have made the post season at least one time. This group of seniors just have a poor bball IQ, and he inherited no post players except for Gavin.

[DanDority]

No one expected Neuman to be a flop in his first year either. That top 6 was predicted by the media based on what THEIR expectations of his "one and done" performance would do combined with our seniors. Fred played his best game of the season last night. That's a little late, and you saw first hand what happens to us when we face big, physical teams with good guards look like. That being said, if you gave Howland that group for 3 years like Ray, he would have made the post season at least one time. This group of seniors just have a poor bball IQ, and he inherited no post players except for Gavin.
Could not have said it better.

[K9 Avenger]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

AWESOME!!! When do we get to come up with a stupid ass, derogatory nickname for Howland? You know, like we do for all our other shitty coaches.....

[dawgday166]

No one expected Neuman to be a flop in his first year either. That top 6 was predicted by the media based on what THEIR expectations of his "one and done" performance would do combined with our seniors. Fred played his best game of the season last night. That's a little late, and you saw first hand what happens to us when we face big, physical teams with good guards look like. That being said, if you gave Howland that group for 3 years like Ray, he would have made the post season at least one time. This group of seniors just have a poor bball IQ, and he inherited no post players except for Gavin.

Good post.

I tend to give a new coach 3 - 4 years, depends on whole set of circumstances and sport too. I'm sorta thinking year 3 for Howland. I like the way he coaches. Took him a while this year to get the buy-in from the team on his system/philosophy and to probably de-recruit Malik. He needs more front-line depth too.

When years 5 - 7 get here tho, l'll be harder on them. Mullen gets a little pass on the D side this year from me, but the O better score points, especially in red zone. Offense is his baby anyway. I wanna see some brilliant offense. No excuses on offense. The D does need to keep improving as the year progresses tho. Mullen's deficiencies (consistent pregame preparation, in-game management) need to improve a lot too.

Cohen ... anything less than super-regional is big failure. I'll give him a pass on his philosophy for now ... even tho I don't agree with it. We'll see.

[Dawgface]

I thought we would finish with a winning record. So yes......the season was a failure. But any new coach gets a pass in year one.

[Bubb Rubb]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

I'm hesitant to call year one a failure. Anytime you change coaches, you also change the fundamentals of your program. Habits change, training changes, practices change, systems change, etc. If Ray had coached this team, maybe he would've won a couple of more games this year because the players would've been in a system that was comfortable to them. The Howland hire will pay dividends down the road - not necessarily year one. I thought the preseason predictions were way too optimistic for this team.

How many games did we lose at the wire? There were too many close games that we ended up on the wrong side of. Howland is changing the culture here, and these players have to buy in and learn how to win. That's not a quick fix.

Next year I expect us to be much better, and if Howland keeps recruiting at this level, we will be back in a big way in the next two or three years.

[miketice]

We were predicted to be in the top 6 of the SEC in basketball this season- so aGAIN- many, many people expected us to be much better than we were. Thats not some made up bullshit that you are spewing- I'm talking facts. We had an All-SEC player returning in Sword- Fact. We added an All-SEC Freshman in Q- Fact. We added one of the country's top Guard recruits- Fact

Facts are that nobody expected us to be this bad

I kind of did.

[Ralph]

Howland won more games at MSU his first year than his first year everywhere else he's been.

Expecting a veteran team to do something it didn't come close to doing over the previous years is insane. Literally the definition. Some of you are under estimating the stank Ray put on these players over time.

[djaymsu5]

I think in 2018 or 2019 we will be really good. Next year we will have some real talent but we will go through some growing pains. The good thing is we will have a team full of guys that knew how to win at the highschool level and that's all they know so we will have a new attitude with our program. The team Howland inherited was just cursed or something and did not know how to win and when you add lack of depth at your bigs its a recipe for disaster. The problem with us is we are so tired of losing teams cause this is what we weren't really used to under Stans but we are going to have to have patience.

[Doc]

Is it possible we were ranked high because of Howland and his reputation?

[basedog]

Losing season was a failure.

Coaching was very good overall.

Locker room problems costs us a few games with jealously. Howland overcame that situation.

I once inherited a Basketball team that won 2 games in 2 years, I had 4 seniors who were close to average at best but had no idea how to win. I worked there tails off, we ended up winning 9 games. I was very disappointed, first time I had ever been associated with a losing basketball team since I played organized ball in the 4th grade.

Howland I'm sure is very disappointed on a losing record but his teams played well for what they are down the stretch. This was not a talented team, had a few talented players but of the seniors only Ware showed improvement and that's because of coaching mostly. The others never got any better since there Freshmen days and I doubt they would have been on any SEC team as a starter and most likely not much to any playing time.

It ain't Howland's fault to what he inherited, the man can Coach, watching how much they improved especially on defense was amazing.

Better things to come. Now let's watch closely what the Newman's do, pretty sure it was a shock to both, so many rumors also.

[JohnnyQuid]

Newman way below expectations and players adjusting to new coach / system / jealousy shit. we were a better team at the end of the year - do u remember that abortion of man to man defense we tried to play early in the year?

and this team wasn't out if many games in thd 2nd half of the schedule even when we got down 10-15 we closed it up most times.

future looks good

[tcdog70]

The difference i see , was last year we got our ass kicked many times and this year we were in most of the games. We had a hard time (like last night) with big physical teams. Why because Ware (bless his heart) sucks against big centers.
I think this year was a success because at the start of the year we could't guard My Grandmother. Teams went through our Man-to Man like crotin oil through a Widow Woman (famous Joe Bradshaw saying).At he end of the year we were a pretty good man to man team. He took probably the worst point guard in the SEC and made Him decent. Travis was terrible and Ben made Him better. Flat Top Fred at the end was a dang good defender and maybe the most improved under Howland.

Howland put this team in position to win more games, but his players let Him down. He can't make the free throws in the clutch. He can't help the shitty officiating in the SEC. Kang Jackie said all a Coach can do is put the players in a position to win, but players have to make plays.

Coach, way to stir up the board by going Stansbury on Ben. You are really good with football and Baseball but you pretty much suck with your round ball analysis.

[Covercorner2]

Comparing one coach's 3rd year with all of HIS players to another coach in his 1st year with some of his players and some leftovers. Takes a little while for coaches to get their players and implement their system....

[mparkerfd20]

Newman was a failure, which in turned aided in Howland being a failure in year 1. Anyone that says this year was anything other than a failure is just sugar coating it because they want Howland to succeed so bad. And trust me, I want that too and believe he will. Actually I have no doubt he'll succeed big here. But, that said, this year was very disappointing based on the expectations of what we 'could' have accomplished and didn't.

[msudawg1200]

Right before the season another Dawg fan/alum and myself were talking about the season to come. We both agreed an NIT berth and something like 18-12 would be outstanding. I then said it wouldn't surprise me if we went 13-17 and our fans would be wanting to can Howland. People, we were/are a bad basketball team. Our best player was a freshman. We were senior laden, with bad players. Craig Sword was not good. A turnover machine who turned it over at the worst possible times. Ware was decent. The rest were bad, and they had never been coached. I'm not dogging our seniors. They played hard. They just weren't very good. Now, all that said the future looks pretty bright. I'm excited for the future.

[SDDawg]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

Was Year 1 a huge success that beat expectations? No. For example, our Southern loss was a bad loss and there is no way around that. That said, I don't agree that this team should have been much better. When you look at the front court we had to start the season, there was really no reason to expect a much stronger year. The depth and physical presence to play through foul trouble and to defend the post wasn't there. Our defense was terrible in the first half of the season as a result when we played a very poor zone. Overall, I expected us to win 2 more games and finish over .500. If you step back and look at the Southern game and the A&M game late in the season, we were *really* close to doing that.

To me, the reason that Howland met expectations is simple. He changed the expectations of our players and the team improved during conference play. By the final half of the SEC schedule, we had a legitimate chance to win every game we played in. How we lost was a LOT different this year than it was under Ray. With the exception of that Arkansas game on the road early in the SEC schedule, this team had a chance in every conference game they played. They were competing in the game at some point. They had multiple games that they were battling to win in the final 2 - 3 minutes but couldn't close out. That's a far different situation from Ray. To me, it's like football. You can't compare Croom's 8 win "blue bird" season to Mullen's consistent track record of getting to bowl games and finding a way to get the football team to 6+ wins. If you get beyond the records, it's obvious we have a much different football program now. I think Howland is doing the same with basketball, but only faster and with a higher ceiling based on his Final 4 experience and recruiting ability. Pretty damned excited to see what we put on the floor next fall.

[Johnson85]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

That's not the right measure of failure. A dream season this year would have been squeaking into the NIT. That would have been nice, but you're still talking about making the NIT with a bunch of players that mostly won't be here next here. I think in a situation like that, your only measure of success or failure is what you do to prepare the team to win next year. This team was full of upper classmen that didn't know how to do anything but lose. The seniors finally shook some of that, but what matters is the younger players weren't infected with that mentality. I think Q, Holman, and Malik all got better throughout the year. If Howland and Ready both want Ready to come back, I think he's been turned into an asset for next year rather than a liability. And obviously Howland stocked up in recruiting. It would have been nice for the seniors and fans to go out with an NIT berth, and it's disappointing they didn't win more, but that's pretty insignificant compared to the important things that needed to happen this year and did happen.

[Commercecomet24]

No one expected Neuman to be a flop in his first year either. That top 6 was predicted by the media based on what THEIR expectations of his "one and done" performance would do combined with our seniors. Fred played his best game of the season last night. That's a little late, and you saw first hand what happens to us when we face big, physical teams with good guards look like. That being said, if you gave Howland that group for 3 years like Ray, he would have made the post season at least one time. This group of seniors just have a poor bball IQ, and he inherited no post players except for Gavin.

THIS^^^We played basically a 4 guard lineup and Ware all year and no real backup for Ware. I think we squeezed about as much as we could squeeze out of this group this year and they were playing much better the last month, that's a credit to coaching.

[Johnson85]

I think in 2018 or 2019 we will be really good. Next year we will have some real talent but we will go through some growing pains. The good thing is we will have a team full of guys that knew how to win at the highschool level and that's all they know so we will have a new attitude with our program. The team Howland inherited was just cursed or something and did not know how to win and when you add lack of depth at your bigs its a recipe for disaster. The problem with us is we are so tired of losing teams cause this is what we weren't really used to under Stans but we are going to have to have patience.

I think next year is going to look a lot like this year's trajectory. We are going to look bad to start off with. By the end of SEC play, we will look better. The difference is the overall talent will be much better next year, and they wont' have three years of practice at losing. I think by the end of the year we will be dangerous, depending on whether our freshmen post players are really ready to play as true freshmen. If they are basically like Holman, there will be some matchups that will kill us, just like this year, and even in the matchups that don't we will have to rely way too much on our perimeter players making shots. If they can actually play or even occasionally demand a double team, we could be a NCAA bubble quality team, not by record, but as far as how we're playing at the end of the year.

[Thick]

Let me clarify my Neuman statement. He's not a flop per say, but he's not a one and done player by far. Some people will argue that he did not play enough to get into a rhythm, but he's a liability on the defensive end, cannot turn the corner, struggles to finish at the rim, and is not very good at post entry passes.

All of that being said, he needs to stay get stronger (that will help him stay healthy) and really work on his defense from top to bottom. There is no way in hell that he can play at the next level right now with grown ass men....NO WAY!

[msstate7]

Right before the season another Dawg fan/alum and myself were talking about the season to come. We both agreed an NIT berth and something like 18-12 would be outstanding. I then said it wouldn't surprise me if we went 13-17 and our fans would be wanting to can Howland. People, we were/are a bad basketball team. Our best player was a freshman. We were senior laden, with bad players. Craig Sword was not good. A turnover machine who turned it over at the worst possible times. Ware was decent. The rest were bad, and they had never been coached. I'm not dogging our seniors. They played hard. They just weren't very good. Now, all that said the future looks pretty bright. I'm excited for the future.

No one wants to can Howland... Just bc I don't feel like he did a great job this year doesn't mean I don't think he'll be great in the future.

[Coach34]

Exactly. Nobody has even mentioned firing Howland- simply judging his 1st season- it was a failure. Most people expected to challenge for an NIT berth. WE were predicted to be in the top 6 of the SEC- we failed to meet expectations is his 1st season. Thats a fact.

Moving toward next season and our recruiting class- everyone is excited about the future of the program

[confucius say]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

Half truths at best.

1. Somebody please post the alleged polls that had us preseason top 6. They don't exists. Maybe one somewhere, but we were overwhelmingly predicted lower.

2. Dan's first year was only a one game improvement on crooms last year, yet, like with howland first year, the team obviously was better.

3. We should have won 4 to 5 more games. Can't disagree with that. But howlands team in year one was 10 points better than ray in year three.

[confucius say]

No one wants to can Howland... Just bc I don't feel like he did a great job this year doesn't mean I don't think he'll be great in the future.

I can agree that this year was a disappointment in that we should have won more games. But I actually feel like howland did a good coaching job. Why do you disagree? Solely on win/ loss?

[CadaverDawg]

I do not see this season as a failure in any way.

You can't compare Ray's squad to Howland's. Why? Because Howland could have taught them to keep doing what Ray taught them, ugly the game up, and probably been about .500. That would have been roughly the same record we had this year, but all of our returning players, primarily Newman & Q would have developed very little, and we would be in a bad position going into next year regardless of talent.

Instead, Howland knew he had to change to his style of play, and he did it while knowing the group of veterans may not be very adaptive to change in their final year. He managed to incorporate his style, take some bumps in team chemistry and in wins & losses, fight through those, and come out on the back half of the season with a VERY improved team and a couple of core returning young guys that know what to expect going forward. To say that is a "failure" is not true.

Did we win as many as I had hoped and thought we would? No. But I also didn't think we'd have as many chemistry issues early on with the veterans before they bought in, and I didn't think Newman would struggle like he did and battle injuries all year. If you take the back half of the year, it is clear to see what Howland is capable of....it just took half a season to get seniors bought in, chemistry restored, & to teach these guys that never won what it takes to win. So dumb to call year 1 a failure.

Would it have been a success if Howland decided to just play a better version of Rayball and we won 4 more games and made the NIT, but we're worse off for it because Q & Malik & Holman developed horrible habits? Hell no. Now we can feel confident that a system is in place that is effective, and we have returning players that know it and didn't inherit the Ray-genes that could have easily been inherited.

Successful season in my mind. Hate the results weren't better, but it was exactly what I wanted to see in the second half of the year to prepare us for the 2016-2017 & 2017-2018 years we're aiming for.

[Taog Redloh]

I do not see this season as a failure in any way.

You can't compare Ray's squad to Howland's. Why? Because Howland could have taught them to keep doing what Ray taught them, ugly the game up, and probably been about .500. That would have been roughly the same record we had this year, but all of our returning players, primarily Newman & Q would have developed very little, and we would be in a bad position going into next year regardless of talent.

Instead, Howland knew he had to change to his style of play, and he did it while knowing the group of veterans may not be very adaptive to change in their final year. He managed to incorporate his style, take some bumps in team chemistry and in wins & losses, fight through those, and come out on the back half of the season with a VERY improved team and a couple of core returning young guys that know what to expect going forward. To say that is a "failure" is not true.

Did we win as many as I had hoped and thought we would? No. But I also didn't think we'd have as many chemistry issues early on with the veterans before they bought in, and I didn't think Newman would struggle like he did and battle injuries all year. If you take the back half of the year, it is clear to see what Howland is capable of....it just took half a season to get seniors bought in, chemistry restored, & to teach these guys that never won what it takes to win. So dumb to call year 1 a failure.

Would it have been a success if Howland decided to just play a better version of Rayball and we won 4 more games and made the NIT, but we're worse off for it because Q & Malik & Holman developed horrible habits? Hell no. Now we can feel confident that a system is in place that is effective, and we have returning players that know it and didn't inherit the Ray-genes that could have easily been inherited.

Successful season in my mind. Hate the results weren't better, but it was exactly what I wanted to see in the second half of the year to prepare us for the 2016-2017 & 2017-2018 years we're aiming for.
Great post and applies to most all coaches, within reason. Howland could have taken the 'player coach' route and just let them play, but those guys are typically short-lived. The ones that have a plan are the ones who peak higher.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

I wouldn't call this season a failure but I would say it was a disappointment. When I think of failure I think of nothing going right, absolute trash all the way around. This team & this season wasn't that. The problem is it took a while for this team to trust each other & Howland. Combine that with the fact that our impact freshman who was supposed to get us over the hump in all those close losses from last year didn't materialize & you get more close losses. We didn't have a consistent closer on this team same as last year. Q was probably the closest but he's not all the way ready for that prime time position. The record was disappointing, some of those early season non conference losses were disappointing, but the progression this team & some of its players made this year was definitely encouraging.

Next year the talent level will be improved 10 fold but 95% of the team will still be underclassmen. That will lead to ups & downs, great play & frustrating play, & an overall roller coaster season. Next years team has the talent to be a NIT team fighting for a bubble spot but it won't be easy. 2017-18 team will fight for the SEC championship.

[DancingRabbit]

Half truths at best.

1. Somebody please post the alleged polls that had us preseason top 6. They don't exists. Maybe one somewhere, but we were overwhelmingly predicted lower.

2. Dan's first year was only a one game improvement on crooms last year, yet, like with howland first year, the team obviously was better.

3. We should have won 4 to 5 more games. Can't disagree with that. But howlands team in year one was 10 points better than ray in year three.

SEC Media predictions had us at 8th. I think landing Newman and the 16/17 recruiting class along with Howland's resume inflated everyone's expectations, including mine. No one expected Newman to have the year he did. The way the team improved down the stretch is a good indicator of the job Howland did.

[DanDority]

Let me clarify my Neuman statement. He's not a flop per say, but he's not a one and done player by far. Some people will argue that he did not play enough to get into a rhythm, but he's a liability on the defensive end, cannot turn the corner, struggles to finish at the rim, and is not very good at post entry passes.

All of that being said, he needs to stay get stronger (that will help him stay healthy) and really work on his defense from top to bottom. There is no way in hell that he can play at the next level right now with grown ass men....NO WAY!

First of all I'm definitely not saying Malik is not a good player but you are very correct! There is NO WAY he could play with grown ass men next year! ABSOLUTELY NO WAY!

[preachermatt83]

Look at his first year everywhere he's been. This year was his best first year he's ever had. That should make us VERY optimistic about the future.

[Big4Dawg]

If you told me Newman would not have been on the SEC Freshmen team, we had exactly the year I would have guessed.

[msstate7]

I can agree that this year was a disappointment in that we should have won more games. But I actually feel like howland did a good coaching job. Why do you disagree? Solely on win/ loss?

I feel Howland let the southern, umkc, and Texas tech games get away from us by sticking with man-to-man way too much. If we zone more in those games, we win imo. Those 3 get us to 17-13 by themselves

[msstate7]

Look at his first year everywhere he's been. This year was his best first year he's ever had. That should make us VERY optimistic about the future.

I think Howland's track record shows he's a good coach, but a great recruiter. Recruiting is how he wins big not necessarily by X's and O's if you will. I think he'll win big here by getting big time talent

[Ifyouonlyknew]

I think Howland's track record shows he's a good coach, but a great recruiter. Recruiting is how he wins big not necessarily by X's and O's if you will. I think he'll win big here by getting big time talent

He didn't recruit great at New Mexico or Pitt. He only became an elite recruiter when he got to an elite school UCLA. I think he's equally adept at coaching & recruiting.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

I feel Howland let the southern, umkc, and Texas tech games get away from us by sticking with man-to-man way too much. If we zone more in those games, we win imo. Those 3 get us to 17-13 by themselves

You're probably right on that but 17-13 wouldn't have gotten us into the NIT.

[msstate7]

He didn't recruit great at New Mexico or Pitt. He only became an elite recruiter when he got to an elite school UCLA. I think he's equally adept at coaching & recruiting.

I hope you're right and you usually are

[msstate7]

You're probably right on that but 17-13 wouldn't have gotten us into the NIT.

If we enter sec play with 3 more wins, who knows how much that extra bit of confidence helps us. Maybe players buy in sooner and we take one of aTm (minus house), Tennessee (minus Moore), or Florida on the road. Lotta if's haha

[confucius say]

I feel Howland let the southern, umkc, and Texas tech games get away from us by sticking with man-to-man way too much. If we zone more in those games, we win imo. Those 3 get us to 17-13 by themselves

Fair enough. Once he figured his team and personnel out, I thought his coaching decisions were good. Like going to the press at the 10 minute mark last night instead if waiting till end of game. That changed the game and got us back in it. If we just shoot halfway decent down the stretch, we win (missed 12 of last 14 attempts).

[msstate7]

Fair enough. Once he figured his team and personnel out, I thought his coaching decisions were good. Like going to the press at the 10 minute mark last night instead if waiting till end of game. That changed the game and got us back in it. If we just shoot halfway decent down the stretch, we win (missed 12 of last 14 attempts).

I thought it was the correct move, but that extra energy probably lead to the bad shooting at the end.

[CarolinaDawgs]

But that doesnt change the fact that his 1st season was a failure

Yea Im pissed we didn't win the natty too***

[gtowndawg]

I'll admit I thought we would be much better this year. I honestly did. But two things that I didn't expect:

1. Malik not making an impact. I would have never guessed that.
2. No rebounding at all. I thought we could mask that some but we just couldn't. It killed us.

[Political Hack]

We should've been better than what we were, but I saw two different teams between the first half of the season and the 2nd half. I'm fine with where we are right now based on that.

[mic]

We should've been better than what we were, but I saw two different teams between the first half of the season and the 2nd half. I'm fine with where we are right now based on that.

100% accurate..
CBH hadn't coached in a few years... Prob took him a while to get back in the groove and the returning players obviously didn't buy in right away..
Newman isn't what he was projected to be
Holman missed basically half the season and whole off season.

I wasn't expecting to make the dance , and thought 9-9 would have been a good conference record based on our in conference schedule..

But saying season one is a failure is bit of a reach.... And I don't care that we had 4 returning starters...

[Commercecomet24]

I figured .500 record would've been a success and we were dang close. Anyone thinking we were gonna win 18-20 games was overly optimistic. Howland inherited a team that wasn't very talented with only one big. As the season progressed this team improved dramitcally. This wasn't the same team that started the season. This team was actually fun to watch the last 4-6 weeks. Ray's teams were not only bad they were boring. Disappointing season, maybe, failure, no.

[HoopsDawg]

We should've been better than what we were, but I saw two different teams between the first half of the season and the 2nd half. I'm fine with where we are right now based on that.

From the beginning of conference play to the end, that's as good a job by a MSU coach as I can remember.

First part of the season we were playing Ndoye and Q wasn't getting minutes. Also, everyone underestimated how valuable Roq Johnson was last year. We couldn't replace him with Daniels/Zuppardo. Who was it that was so fired up about Z in the preseason? I think it was Goat.

[Commercecomet24]

From the beginning of conference play to the end, that's as good a job by a MSU coach as I can remember.

First part of the season we were playing Ndoye and Q wasn't getting minutes. Also, everyone underestimated how valuable Roq Johnson was last year. We couldn't replace him with Daniels/Zuppardo. Who was it that was so fired up about Z in the preseason? I think it was Goat.

Completely agree!

[Tbonewannabe]

People thinking Rick Ray would have won as many or more games isn't being realistic. Ware didn't become the player he was this year without Howland. Unless he decided on his own to change his conditioning then Howland is responsible. No one really developed under Rick Ray but you can see a big difference from the first part of the season until now. Also in basketball, recruiting is at least half the job. It isn't even comparable how much better we are now with Howland.

Howland had to teach fundamental skills that players should know but Rick Ray lacked. Saying Rick Ray would have won as many games this year is the same as saying Croom would have won at least 5 Mullen's first year.

[maroonmania]

Gosh, I can't believe some of you folks are saying that you expected exactly what we got are saying that with a straight face, at least from a record standpoint. So you are telling me that while we were 13-19 (6-12 in the SEC) last year, that with losing essentially only Roquez Johnson and adding Malik AND Q AND Holman (a top 150 recruit himself) plus the upgrade in coaching with Howland and staff PLUS all the guys back with ANOTHER year of experience that the only improvement you expected was to go 14-17 (7-11 in the SEC)? I'm calling BS because some folks apparently just don't really want to criticize CBH in any way, shape or form. Failure might be a little strong but disappointed is about the minimum you can say for this year. I bet if you asked CBH privately he would say the same thing. What we got the last half of the SEC season I would have thought we would be seeing by 6 to 8 games into the season. If we had we would have been a solid NIT team no questions asked. And that was STILL without Malik playing like we thought he would and AFTER losing Black and Ndoye to take us to essentially no post depth. We underachieved this year as a whole, not sure that's even debatable. The good news is though that Coach Howland starts with a near clean slate of players next year that have a LOT more talent and haven't been coached in a different way for 3 straight years in college before Howland gets a hold of them.

[YazooDawg23]

This thread is exactly why State fans can't have nice things.

[Liverpooldawg]

Gosh, I can't believe some of you folks are saying that you expected exactly what we got are saying that with a straight face, at least from a record standpoint. So you are telling me that while we were 13-19 (6-12 in the SEC) last year, that with losing essentially only Roquez Johnson and adding Malik AND Q AND Holman (a top 150 recruit himself) plus the upgrade in coaching with Howland and staff PLUS all the guys back with ANOTHER year of experience that the only improvement you expected was to go 14-17 (7-11 in the SEC)? I'm calling BS because some folks apparently just don't really want to criticize CBH in any way, shape or form. Failure might be a little strong but disappointed is about the minimum you can say for this year. I bet if you asked CBH privately he would say the same thing. What we got the last half of the SEC season I would have thought we would be seeing by 6 to 8 games into the season. If we had we would have been a solid NIT team no questions asked. And that was STILL without Malik playing like we thought he would and AFTER losing Black and Ndoye to take us to essentially no post depth. We underachieved this year as a whole, not sure that's even debatable. The good news is though that Coach Howland starts with a near clean slate of players next year that have a LOT more talent and haven't been coached in a different way for 3 straight years in college before Howland gets a hold of them.

You aren't going to win consistently with basically one serviceable inside guy. This team had little chance to do well even if that was the only problem we had. It wasn't. I thought the coaching job I saw this year was one of the best I have ever seen at MSU. I can't wait to see what he can do with better talent and depth.

[smootness]

No coach's first year should ever be considered a failure so long as it's just not an epic disaster, like winning 0 conference games or having a bunch of guys leave the program, etc.

The fact is, the preseason predictions were all based on conjecture. We, and the media, took the fact that we had experience coming back and an elite talent in Newman and just figured we would have success in a weak league. But the league was not bad this year, Newman wasn't what he was expected to be, and we lost sight of the fact that the experience coming back just wasn't very good.

You never know how a team will react to a new system immediately or how players with no experience will play once they enter the next level. I fell victim to some of the expectations, but we were just wrong. That doesn't mean Howland failed. Based on his track record, this is exactly what we should have expected. In hindsight, was Howland's first year at UCLA a failure? No.

[Coach34]

If Rick Ray has coached this team to 14 wins- everybody would be talking about how they underachieved and Ray should be fired

[Tbonewannabe]

Gosh, I can't believe some of you folks are saying that you expected exactly what we got are saying that with a straight face, at least from a record standpoint. So you are telling me that while we were 13-19 (6-12 in the SEC) last year, that with losing essentially only Roquez Johnson and adding Malik AND Q AND Holman (a top 150 recruit himself) plus the upgrade in coaching with Howland and staff PLUS all the guys back with ANOTHER year of experience that the only improvement you expected was to go 14-17 (7-11 in the SEC)? I'm calling BS because some folks apparently just don't really want to criticize CBH in any way, shape or form. Failure might be a little strong but disappointed is about the minimum you can say for this year. I bet if you asked CBH privately he would say the same thing. What we got the last half of the SEC season I would have thought we would be seeing by 6 to 8 games into the season. If we had we would have been a solid NIT team no questions asked. And that was STILL without Malik playing like we thought he would and AFTER losing Black and Ndoye to take us to essentially no post depth. We underachieved this year as a whole, not sure that's even debatable. The good news is though that Coach Howland starts with a near clean slate of players next year that have a LOT more talent and haven't been coached in a different way for 3 straight years in college before Howland gets a hold of them.

Holman didn't play for the first half and Malik was basically too hurt to play. When people expected us to do well it was because everyone expected 1 and done Malik to average about 16 out the gate and to take over games. Q played in the 2nd half like we expected Malik to play the entire year. Take Dak off last year's team and your expectations are drastically different. Malik was rated as a top 5 guard in the country so expectations were pretty high.

[shannondawg]

Thank goodness for Q.

Many on this board were predicting Malik to avg. 17-26 points a game.

Wasn't it the same guys that predicted that we would be last in football, the year we got to a number 1 ranking?



If you told me Newman would not have been on the SEC Freshmen team, we had exactly the year I would have guessed.

[DancingRabbit]

If Rick Ray has coached this team to 14 wins- everybody would be talking about how they underachieved and Ray should be fired

So if Howland wins 14 in his 4th year let the bitch-fest commence.

[Liverpooldawg]

If Rick Ray has coached this team to 14 wins- everybody would be talking about how they underachieved and Ray should be fired

Had he been in his first year with the recruiting year we had people wouldn't.

[confucius say]

If Rick Ray has coached this team to 14 wins- everybody would be talking about how they underachieved and Ray should be fired

Yep. Bc it would be his ceiling. It's CBH floor.

The problem is you used the word "failure." Everybody agrees with you that we should have won 2-3 more games.

[mic]

If Rick Ray has coached this team to 14 wins- everybody would be talking about how they underachieved and Ray should be fired

Yes because it would have been year 4 with all his guys and not a good out look on the future...

[maroonmania]

Holman didn't play for the first half and Malik was basically too hurt to play. When people expected us to do well it was because everyone expected 1 and done Malik to average about 16 out the gate and to take over games. Q played in the 2nd half like we expected Malik to play the entire year. Take Dak off last year's team and your expectations are drastically different. Malik was rated as a top 5 guard in the country so expectations were pretty high.

Well this whole thread is about what happened against what expectations were. When you don't win as much as you THINK you are going to in the preseason there is ALWAYS a reason why.

[maroonmania]

This thread is exactly why State fans can't have nice things.

Why? Because when the season didn't go quite as well as expected we don't all pretend that it did?

[maroonmania]

You aren't going to win consistently with basically one serviceable inside guy. This team had little chance to do well even if that was the only problem we had. It wasn't. I thought the coaching job I saw this year was one of the best I have ever seen at MSU. I can't wait to see what he can do with better talent and depth.

Well, we were 7-6 in the SEC over the last 13 games so that wasn't too bad. However, in preseason expectations nobody knew that we would only have one serviceable inside guy. I believe most thought that we would have Ndoye, Black, Holman or someone to help Ware out down low. Also, nobody knew that Ready, Sword and Thomas would play so poorly the first half of the season. Again this thread as I interpret it is about the performance we got against the performance we expected.

[Coach34]

Yes because it would have been year 4 with all his guys and not a good out look on the future...

except that people were saying this after Ray's 1st year

[confucius say]

Why? Because when the season didn't go quite as well as expected we don't all pretend that it did?

No. It's the lack of perspective and "all or nothing" mentality. People who look at this season and describe it solely as a failure are the same people who wish mullen would leave (not get fired).

[Thick]

How many games did we lose this year because we could not finish the last 3-5 minutes of the game....5-6? How many games did we lose by 6 points or less? Quite a few. I agree with Hack, there was definitely 2 different teams that everyone witnessed this year. That's all coaching in the latter. You can be disappointed, but you can't say that you did not see improvement. Our seniors were Ray's, not Howland's. Next year will be different, exciting, and frustrating, but it will be with top talent!

[mic]

And the Schedule..
@uk, @uf, 2 game with Texas am, @lsu, 2 with USCe,

Only played Aub once...

Bama better than anyone thought,

Schedule Was one of the harder ones in conference..

Our only bad loss was Tenn....

[ckDOG]

I was hoping we'd slide into the NIT this year. I'm disappointed we didn't. Whatevs. Lots of talent coming in next year and I can't wait to see it on the floor. I haven't been this excited about MSU basketball since the early 2000s.

[mic]

except that people were saying this after Ray's 1st year

I agree no one gave RR a chance form the start... Which was bullshit.. But that's all on The AD of the year going rouge and hiring his guy...

[HoopsDawg]

Well, we were 7-6 in the SEC over the last 13 games so that wasn't too bad. However, in preseason expectations nobody knew that we would only have one serviceable inside guy. I believe most thought that we would have Ndoye, Black, Holman or someone to help Ware out down low. Also, nobody knew that Ready, Sword and Thomas would play so poorly the first half of the season. Again this thread as I interpret it is about the performance we got against the performance we expected.

This team couldn't shoot. We were 234th in the country in 3 point percentage. Not much a coach can do about. This team lacked a rim protector. Again, not much a coach can do about that. This season was not a failure. You can argue that expectations weren't met, but who cares if we had won 4 more games? That gets us nowhere. Howland is trying to build a consistent NCAA tourney team here.

Personally, I thought Malik would play almost every game the way he did against Ole Miss at home. I don't know what was up with Malik's ability to finish around the rim. That wasn't a problem in High School. I have to point to the turf toe, back, and knee as a reason. Also Howland thought he had fixed Fred Thomas's shot but it's hard to correct 21 years of bad habits in one offseason.

[Thick]

Our AD was smart, and listened to Adidas. Ray was never going to be successful here, because he could not recruit....period.

[HoopsDawg]

Our seniors were Ray's, not Howland's. Next year will be different, exciting, and frustrating, but it will be with top talent!

Actually, the seniors were Stansbury's: Chicken, Ware, and Fred. Then you had Z and Daniels along with Ready who were Ray's players. The only 2 players on this team who are Howland's are Malik and Holman. Next year, Ready and Q will be the only holdovers assuming Ready comes back.

[HoopsDawg]

If Rick Ray has coached this team to 14 wins- everybody would be talking about how they underachieved and Ray should be fired

Really, really pointless statement here. Ray would have had a recruiting class ranked about 200th in the country. Ray is responsible for the players on the court, not Howland. Ray hasn't earned any equity such as back to back final 4's like Howland. So yeah, we would have wanted Ray fired, but he was already fired from the previous season. Weak post 34, you're better than that.

[MarketingBully]

Actually, the seniors were Stansbury's: Chicken, Ware, and Fred. Then you had Z and Daniels along with Ready who were Ray's players. The only 2 players on this team who are Howland's are Malik and Holman. Next year, Ready and Q will be the only holdovers assuming Ready comes back.

Q was 100% Coach Brooks. Ray had nothing to do with Q which was why it was easy for Q to stay committed. Ray even admitted it.

[confucius say]

Really, really pointless statement here. Ray would have had a recruiting class ranked about 200th in the country. Ray is responsible for the players on the court, not Howland. Ray hasn't earned any equity such as back to back final 4's like Howland. So yeah, we would have wanted Ray fired, but he was already fired from the previous season. Weak post 34, you're better than that.

Back to back to back.

[MarketingBully]

except that people were saying this after Ray's 1st year

Ray is stupendous in his first years as head coach. He was 10-21 here and 5-24 at SEMSU. Great and wonderful coaching jobs!

[maroonmania]

You can argue that expectations weren't met, but who cares if we had won 4 more games?

What? If we go 18-13 this year NOBODY is even calling the season a disappointment, much less a failure. We would almost assuredly be in some post-season tournament with that record. AGAIN, this is all about expectations for THIS year and THIS team, its not about long term projection for the program under Howland which I believe almost 100% of us sees as very positive. We all know this team is essentially all gone next year and we start over with nearly an entire new roster so very little about this year has any bearing on what will happen going forward.

[MarketingBully]

Really, really pointless statement here. Ray would have had a recruiting class ranked about 200th in the country. Ray is responsible for the players on the court, not Howland. Ray hasn't earned any equity such as back to back final 4's like Howland. So yeah, we would have wanted Ray fired, but he was already fired from the previous season. Weak post 34, you're better than that.

You want to know why Ray sucked at recruiting? He had absolutely no idea what he was doing. What was his pitch to recruits? He was lucky to grab three star recruits. If he had gotten rid of George Brooks, his recruiting would have sucked worse. I am really glad we have kept Coach Brooks. We have excellent recruiters on staff now and have Coach Ben "the Godfather" Howland as our closer for recruiting. We will be set for a long time in basketball. Basketball will be exciting again!

[mic]

Our AD was smart, and listened to Adidas. Ray was never going to be successful here, because he could not recruit....period.

Our AD wasn't smart when he hired RR...

[Thick]

He did that on his own. He was told to hire Howland, after he was told to fire Ray.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

You want to know why Ray sucked at recruiting? He had absolutely no idea what he was doing. What was his pitch to recruits? He was lucky to grab three star recruits. If he had gotten rid of George Brooks, his recruiting would have sucked worse. I am really glad we have kept Coach Brooks. We have excellent recruiters on staff now and have Coach Ben "the Godfather" Howland as our closer for recruiting. We will be set for a long time in basketball. Basketball will be exciting again!

It also doesn't hurt that Stans guys who left when Ray arrived have come back for Howland. Makes a difference.

[mic]

He did that on his own. He was told to hire Howland, after he was told to fire Ray.

Exactly..

[HoopsDawg]

AGAIN, this is all about expectations for THIS year and THIS team, its not about long term projection for the program under Howland which I believe almost 100% of us sees as very positive. We all know this team is essentially all gone next year and we start over with nearly an entire new roster so very little about this year has any bearing on what will happen going forward.

My point is that expectations were out of whack. I think we should have won a couple of more games but at the same time, I didn't expect us to beat Vandy.

[msstate7]

My point is that expectations were out of whack. I think we should have won a couple of more games but at the same time, I didn't expect us to beat Vandy.

I expected better... We lost 8 sec games last year by 6 points or less and added 3 4* players or better. The upgrade in talent and coaching made me think those close losses would be wins this year, but it just resulted in more close losses

[HoopsDawg]

I expected better... We lost 8 sec games last year by 6 points or less and added 3 4* players or better. The upgrade in talent and coaching made me think those close losses would be wins this year, but it just resulted in more close losses

Not really fair to count Holman in that group. He was hurt the first half and not really ready for D1. Fred didn't make the improvement Howland thought he would. Malik had no where near the impact I thought he would. And people underestimated the loss of Roq. I just can't put any of that on Howland.

[msstate7]

Not really fair to count Holman in that group. He was hurt the first half and not really ready for D1. Fred didn't make the improvement Howland thought he would. Malik had no where near the impact I thought he would. And people underestimated the loss of Roq. I just can't put any of that on Howland.

Malik certainly disappointed, but Q surpassed expectations, so I'd say that's a wash.

[BayouDawg]

This season aside I'm very excited about our program. We haven't had a good X's and O's coach like Howland in quite some time. Our win against USCe was a thing of beauty. You could tell how prepared the defense was. We tried to do a similar defensive gameplan last night but we could not stop Fraziers or any of their guards dribble penetration and that threw the whole defense off. Once we get a point guard that can stop dribble drives our defense will be nasty

[HoopsDawg]

Malik certainly disappointed, but Q surpassed expectations, so I'd say that's a wash.

LOL, not an equal trade off and no where near a wash. There were some who thought Malik would be a Monta Ellis type player for us. An 18-5-4-3 guys. Malik amounted to no more than a role player when the expecations were for him to play like a lottery pick.

[basedog]

Malik certainly disappointed, but Q surpassed expectations, so I'd say that's a wash.

Q wasn't a surprise, watching him play in High School it was obvious he was gonna be very good. Newman has things he needs to get corrected, one he needs to get healthy and get his head screwed on right. Hopefully he matures into the player that got so much attention as he has talent.

[msstate7]

LOL, not an equal trade off and no where near a wash. There were some who thought Malik would be a Monta Ellis type player for us. An 18-5-4-3 guys. Malik amounted to no more than a role player when the expecations were for him to play like a lottery pick.

Maybe not, but Malik was 11.3 ppg 2.8 rpg 2.2 apg. Q was 12.0 ppg 4.7 rpg 1.4 apg. If preseason you had said that Q/Malik would combine for 23.3 ppg 7.5 rpg 3.6 apg, I think everyone would've agreed that's realistic.

[Tbonewannabe]

LOL, not an equal trade off and no where near a wash. There were some who thought Malik would be a Monta Ellis type player for us. An 18-5-4-3 guys. Malik amounted to no more than a role player when the expecations were for him to play like a lottery pick.

This is exactly why the expectations were NIT or NCAA bubble. If you have a player that caliber then everyone is improved. Malik was supposed to be a player that other teams had to either double team or extend the defense out to cover him. Due to either injuries or not living up to the hype is pretty much lowering expectations. Holman getting hurt and not contributing for half the year also hurt our depth in the post so Ware had to shoulder too much down low.

[maroonmania]

This is exactly why the expectations were NIT or NCAA bubble. If you have a player that caliber then everyone is improved. Malik was supposed to be a player that other teams had to either double team or extend the defense out to cover him. Due to either injuries or not living up to the hype is pretty much lowering expectations. Holman getting hurt and not contributing for half the year also hurt our depth in the post so Ware had to shoulder too much down low.

Exactly, name the last time a team had a preseason projected NBA Top 10 first round pick on it and had a losing record. I can guarantee you it hasn't happened often.

[Tbonewannabe]

Exactly, name the last time a team had a preseason projected NBA Top 10 first round pick on it and had a losing record. I can guarantee you it hasn't happened often.

Unless your coach is a moron like LSU's coach. We finally have a coach that is not only an extremely good recruiter but a great Xs and Os coach. I look forward to next year because we should be pretty good.

[HancockCountyDog]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

I don't see how anyone can disagree with this.

Newman may have been a disappointment, but Q was way better than expected.

[maroonmania]

Unless your coach is a moron like LSU's coach. We finally have a coach that is not only an extremely good recruiter but a great Xs and Os coach. I look forward to next year because we should be pretty good.

Yep, and even with a bad coach like Jones LSU still sports a record currently 5 games above .500. Not a losing record like we have.

[Dawg61]

It was obvious we were a much improved team this year. We had a shit ton of close games. We looked like a coached team for the first time in a long time. Ben Howland is the man! If you can't see that you don't know shit about basketball.

[smootness]

The bottom line is that we're all ridiculously stupid if we sit here and try to judge Howland on a yearly basis and pretend like he better improve or he's gone. We should give him essentially as long as he wants. He's Ben Howland; if he can't get it done, we might as well shut down the basketball program because it won't ever happen.

This would be like Clemson hiring Coach K and then after they don't go .500 in year one, seeing a Clemson fan say, 'Well, Year 1 was a failure.'

Howland has free rein. So unless we're trying to judge his job and whether or not he should keep it, just let things play out.

[msstate7]

The bottom line is that we're all ridiculously stupid if we sit here and try to judge Howland on a yearly basis and pretend like he better improve or he's gone. We should give him essentially as long as he wants. He's Ben Howland; if he can't get it done, we might as well shut down the basketball program because it won't ever happen.

This would be like Clemson hiring Coach K and then after they don't go .500 in year one, seeing a Clemson fan say, 'Well, Year 1 was a failure.'

Howland has free rein. So unless we're trying to judge his job and whether or not he should keep it, just let things play out.

Who's talking about firing him? I think it's perfectly logical to think it was a disappointing year, but happy as hell to have him too

[tcdog70]

It was obvious we were a much improved team this year. We had a shit ton of close games. We looked like a coached team for the first time in a long time. Ben Howland is the man! If you can't see that you don't know shit about basketball.

thanks 61--why is this even in question? We were a completely different team from the start of the season till the last half of the season. IJ went from shit to a pretty decent PG. Flat Top really got better. And Ware at times was dominate. But what do you expect when daniels and JZ are you next best big men?

[smootness]

Who's talking about firing him? I think it's perfectly logical to think it was a disappointing year, but happy as hell to have him too

Nobody. But my point is that even attempting to judge him for year one is ridiculous because it leads to nothing. Howland is here until he either leads us to success or we shut our program down. There's pretty much no in-between. So what good does it do to even attempt to judge him on a yearly basis?

It's also absurd to judge this year as though Ray was still coach. They would be entirely different scenarios. Again, sometimes teams don't react well to a new coach's system in the first year. And sometimes players new to college basketball don't always react well to the step-up in year one. We assumed Howland would be able to have this team run his system, and we assumed Newman would be easily our best player. Neither happened. Again, was his first year at UCLA a failure? No, even though they won 10 games. It's not as though his first 2 years at UCLA or Pitt were failures and then he got better and finally picked things up in year 3. He had to take a couple years to get his guys and fully implement his system. The same will likely be true here.

[mic]

Any and all RR or Stands.. good or bad.. posts, threads, comparisons, Ect... Should all be buried , laid to rest and
Never mentioned again...

[BulldogBacker]

The end results were not satisfactory. I don't think anyone would say they were. However, I think there were several justifiable mitigating circumstances to seriously criticize him. A month prior to the season, we thought we would have a healthy Malik Newman and Aric Holman. Newman was hurt 3/4 of the season and the games in which he was healthy he did well. Aric Holman didn't play until after Christmas, and was seriously out of shape when he did. He progressed well. We installed an entirely new offense, and that took a lot of time to become effective. Q Weatherspoon was a huge surprise, but I think got "late season legs."

Next season, we will have a lot better talent, but it will be really young. I think we will once again start slow and finish hot. It will take time for all the "kids" to work well together. I think year 3 will be special.

[IMissJack]

X's and O's < Jimmys and Joes apparently

[dawgday166]

X's and O's < Jimmys and Joes apparently

This is true for the most part. But won't it be nice having a good X's & O's coach around when the Jimmys and Joes show up. I like the fact that they shoot FT pretty good too.

[smootness]

Maybe not, but Malik was 11.3 ppg 2.8 rpg 2.2 apg. Q was 12.0 ppg 4.7 rpg 1.4 apg. If preseason you had said that Q/Malik would combine for 23.3 ppg 7.5 rpg 3.6 apg, I think everyone would've agreed that's realistic.

But you can't do that. First, Q was expected to be a pretty good freshman and was also counted in our expectations. Second, having one guy score 23 is nowhere near the same thing as having 2 guys score 23. The impact on the game of one guy scoring that much is generally way higher.

Newman was expected to carry us at times and to be an elite player. Q was better than expected and became our best player at times, but he was not elite. Not even close.

[Coach34]

The bottom line is that his 1st season was a failure. Now we can always go into the reasons why- and those reasons are WHY people and teams fail to meet expectations.

1. The Sr's didnt buy in early enough
2. There was a rift between the Sr's and the Freshmen
3. Malik was hurt and struggled his 1st year. Same with Holman
4. Lost close games because older guys just werent winners (missed FT's and turnovers at crucial times)

Those are the reasons WHY Season 1 was a failure. Did the team get better? Yes. Should they have been that shitty to begin with coming into the season as a veteran team? Absolutely not. They were better under Ray last year than they were the 1st half of this season- nobody on the planet expected that.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

They were better under Ray last year than they were the 1st half of this season- nobody on the planet expected that.

That's a close 1. I remember the Arkansas St, USC Upstate, & McNeese St stretch last year. It's like comparing 2 bullet wounds to the face.

[smootness]

The bottom line is that his 1st season was a failure.

That is in no way the undisputed fact you claim it to be.

'Not consistent with expectations' is not the same as 'failure'.

[WPDawg]

Howland's 1st season was disappointing- that can't be disputed. Ray won 13 games last year and 6 SEC games. Howland's had a veteran team- plus two very good Freshman- and won 1 more game. ONE. That's a failure.

Failure in Year 1

Now that's over- the future looks bright with the recruiting class coming in and the program continues not to have any embarrassing incidents off the court as we did with Stands constantly. A very young team for 2017 ahead. Let's see what Year 2 brings us.

You are wrong on the "failure" part. Howland instilled a new system and climate. This team went from looking totally lost to start the season to having the potential to defeat every opponent in the 2nd half of the season. That is progress not failure. The disappointing thing is that Howland did not show up one year earlier and we could have seen what this 15/16 team could have done with "Howland seasoned" seniors. I appreciate what these seniors gave to MSU and enjoyed watching this team continue to get better this year. Would have enjoyed making the tourney or NIT just so the seniors could have ended with that feather in their cap. Its a process of continued improvement and that is what is happening so far.

click an ad

[mic]

This team not meeting OUR expectations in the win / loss department doesn't mean this was a failure in year one of CBH.

A failure to me would have been if this team had folded up shop and quit on CBH after the 0-5 start in league play and if our recruiting class coming in next year wasn't up to CBH standards on recruiting..

I expected a few more wins, but I also expected these SR's to buy in quicker and Malik to be a much more polished player..

The failure this year was lack of fan support attendance wise by both season ticket holders and students...

[SheltonChoked]

Id say #1 reason is we had exactly 1 post player. Add another rebounder/ defender on the post and we win about 5 more games ( southern, umkc, one of the A&m games, one of the UGA games) that's not on Howland. He brought in 2 both got hurt. The fact is Ray recruited one contributer to this team (Q). Howland has fixed that.

Also, Howland has never won in his first year. Ever. To expect more is foolish.

Oh and obvious troll is obvious. This is an example of your CYA posting that makes you hard to trust sometimes. Now if Howland crashes and burns, you have an I told you so thread. I don't think you believe what you are posting, you just want a record of where you are right.

[msstate7]

Id say #1 reason is we had exactly 1 post player. Add another rebounder/ defender on the post and we win about 5 more games ( southern, umkc, one of the A&m games, one of the UGA games) that's not on Howland. He brought in 2 both got hurt. The fact is Ray recruited one contributer to this team (Q). Howland has fixed that.

Also, Howland has never won in his first year. Ever. To expect more is foolish.

Oh and obvious troll is obvious. This is an example of your CYA posting that makes you hard to trust sometimes. Now if Howland crashes and burns, you have an I told you so thread. I don't think you believe what you are posting, you just want a record of where you are right.
I thought ready contributed this year... He's a poor defender, but we would've lost many more without him.

I'm not saying Howland ran off Houston and black, but they would've made a lot of difference this year had they stayed and bought in. Now we're better off in the long run bc they left, but it definitely hurt this year imo

[Coach34]

Oh and obvious troll is obvious. This is an example of your CYA posting that makes you hard to trust sometimes. Now if Howland crashes and burns, you have an I told you so thread. I don't think you believe what you are posting, you just want a record of where you are right.

Not trolling at all- this season was a failure on the court. And mark this down- I in absolutely no way expect Howland to fail at State for his career

[SheltonChoked]

Fair enough.

I hope Howland stays on his career track.

I have every indication he will.

I thought we'd be better than we were to start the year. But we played at the end better than any state team in years.