Yall look this over and gimme your input, if ya want... MSU '16 FBall...

[TUSK]

.........DATE .....OPPONENT
Sat, Sep 03 South Alabama Heavy FAV
Sat, Sep 10 South Carolina *FAV
Sat, Sep 17 @ LSU * Heavy DOG
Sat, Sep 24 @ UMass Heavy FAV
Sat, Oct 08 Auburn * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Fri, Oct 14 @ BYU Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 22 @ Kentucky * Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 29 Samford Heavy FAV
Sat, Nov 05 Texas A&M * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 12 @ Alabama * Heavy DOG
Sat, Nov 19 Arkansas * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 26 @ Ole Miss * Slight DOG

7-5/8-4, maybe?

[RTO Dawg]

I'll take 7-5 but could surprise

[Coach34]

6-6 most likely...decent shot at 7-5

[msstate7]

Didn't bo say 3-4 wins? I didn't listen so I may be getting bad info

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

It's going to be exciting to see how it all plays out and who ends up at QB, but we will mostly likely start a QB that has never played meaningful snaps in an SEC game. Combine that with our current running game and I'll be happy as hell with 7-5.

[Jack Lambert]

.........DATE .....OPPONENT
Sat, Sep 03 South Alabama Heavy FAV
Sat, Sep 10 South Carolina *FAV
Sat, Sep 17 @ LSU * Heavy DOG
Sat, Sep 24 @ UMass Heavy FAV
Sat, Oct 08 Auburn * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Fri, Oct 14 @ BYU Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 22 @ Kentucky * Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 29 Samford Heavy FAV
Sat, Nov 05 Texas A&M * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 12 @ Alabama * Heavy DOG
Sat, Nov 19 Arkansas * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 26 @ Ole Miss * Slight DOG

7-5/8-4, maybe?

We will win all six home games and beat BYU and UMass. Ole Miss will be ripped for the picking with only 8 starters coming back but it is at Oxford so you have to pick that one as a loss.

Auburn will not be improve, Arkansas is losing all of it's offense, we are catching A&M later in the year, south Carolina will not have it turned around and Muschamp suxs.

[Political Hack]

7/8 most likely. I'd take the over at 6.5 for the regular season.

[TrapGame]

I expect a lot more running with Fitz as QB. It there's a hole and green grass, he gone. He'll take his shots down the field too but he'll run way more than Dak did last year. This may be a wrinkle that wins a couple of games that are close.

8-4

[Coach34]

Auburn will not be improve, Arkansas is losing all of it's offense, we are catching A&M later in the year, south Carolina will not have it turned around and Muschamp suxs.

Auburn signed 3 difference makers on the DL- we signed 1 in Simmons...and their DL was already going to be better than ours. They also return 4 starters on the OL. They will be young at WR and need a QB to step up- but Auburn is going to be tough to beat for us

Getting SC early is a good thing- but they do return 8 starters on D.

UPig returns 20/22 on D. They will be a tough out- just like they have the last 2 seasons. We have beaten them on the last play of the game basically 2 seasons in a row

[Jack Lambert]

Auburn signed 3 difference makers on the DL- we signed 1 in Simmons...and their DL was already going to be better than ours. They also return 4 starters on the OL. They will be young at WR and need a QB to step up- but Auburn is going to be tough to beat for us

Getting SC early is a good thing- but they do return 8 starters on D.

UPig returns 20/22 on D. They will be a tough out- just like they have the last 2 seasons. We have beaten them on the last play of the game basically 2 seasons in a row

We have Auburns and Arkansas number and we have both at home. SC was really bad last year, Muschamp is not a good coach so I don' think he will turn it around. If we were going to those three schools to play I would agree but they are coming to Starkville this year.

To add Arkansas defense did not stop us last year. So why would they be any better?

Starkville is a tough outing.

[Beaver]

but we will mostly likely start a QB that has never played meaningful snaps in an SEC game. Combine that with our current running game and I'll be happy as hell with 7-5.

True, but it's getting harder to use this as an excuse for not winning games. For some it works out well (Cam, Blake Sims, Chad Kelly) -- for others not so much (Jeremy Johnson, Anthony Jennings). Our Qb's have been in the program for a couple years, and we should have high expectations for them.

[Coach34]

We have Auburns and Arkansas number and we have both at home. SC was really bad last year, Muschamp is not a good coach so I don' think he will turn it around. If we were going to those three schools to play I would agree but they are coming to Starkville this year.

To add Arkansas defense did not stop us last year. So why would they be any better?

Starkville is a tough outing.

I'm not saying we cant beat Auburn- but I see them being better than us on the OL and DL- so thats a problem for us.

So because UPig was young last year on D and return 20/22- they cant improve a good bit? Teams cant improve with experience? They are doomed to be bad forever on D because they were young last year? C'mon Mane

[Jack Lambert]

I'm not saying we cant beat Auburn- but I see them being better than us on the OL and DL- so thats a problem for us.

So because UPig was young last year on D and return 20/22- they cant improve a good bit? Teams cant improve with experience? They are doomed to be bad forever on D because they were young last year? C'mon Mane

I guess with our resent success against Auburn and Arkansas I don't see them as a threat like I use to. You probably right and it could come back to bite me on my butt. I just think some coaches have a hard time beating other coaches and I just think Mullen is that guy to Malzahn and Bert.

[Bothrops]

Auburn will be improved, but it may not be by much. I think we'll have too much offense for SC and Arkansas to deal with.

[1bigdawg]

I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised by our offense next year. We will have a LOT of QB read options - because we can afford to do it. We have at least three quality QBs who can run it so coaches do not have to worry as much about protecting our superstar.

[TUSK]

I think AU is the most intriguing match up.... Gus will be coaching for his job in Starkvegas.... IMO

[Coach34]

I think AU is the most intriguing match up.... Gus will be coaching for his job in Starkvegas.... IMO

I agree. A loss to State and they probably end up with 4 maybe even 5 losses. 7-5 and he is gone

[HancockCountyDog]

I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised by our offense next year. We will have a LOT of QB read options - because we can afford to do it. We have at least three quality QBs who can run it so coaches do not have to worry as much about protecting our superstar.

RTGDF????? Would love to see it.

[TrapGame]

I think AU is the most intriguing match up.... Gus will be coaching for his job in Starkvegas.... IMO

I'm gonna make a bold prediction: Gus will be fired mid-season.

[BeardoMSU]

Realistically, we're probably 7-5/8-4. However, depending on how things shake out for other teams, especially in terms of inner turmoil, egos, coaching staff purges, etc., I could definitely see us getting 1 maybe 2 more wins. A 9 or 10 win season isn't out of the realm of possibility.

[FISHDAWG]

6-6 most likely...decent shot at 7-5

I will admit - I'm starting to rethink my signature. Those are my thoughts exactly

[DownwardDawg]

I expect a lot more running with Fitz as QB. It there's a hole and green grass, he gone. He'll take his shots down the field too but he'll run way more than Dak did last year. This may be a wrinkle that wins a couple of games that are close.

8-4


+1

[DancingRabbit]

I'm gonna make a bold prediction: Gus will be fired mid-season.

They didn't fire Chizik until season's end at 3-9.

It rarely makes any sense to fire a guy mid-season unless he's totally lost the team they're getting into trouble. Maybe a week before the end of the season. That's enough head start in your public coaching search.

[gravedigger]

.........DATE .....OPPONENT
Sat, Sep 03 South Alabama Heavy FAV
Sat, Sep 10 South Carolina *FAV
Sat, Sep 17 @ LSU * Heavy DOG
Sat, Sep 24 @ UMass Heavy FAV
Sat, Oct 08 Auburn * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Fri, Oct 14 @ BYU Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 22 @ Kentucky * Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 29 Samford Heavy FAV
Sat, Nov 05 Texas A&M * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 12 @ Alabama * Heavy DOG
Sat, Nov 19 Arkansas * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 26 @ Ole Miss * Slight DOG

7-5/8-4, maybe?


Looks right to me

[Coach34]

I'm gonna make a bold prediction: Gus will be fired mid-season.would be hard with their schedule- they beat us and they will be 5-1 heading into the 2nd half

[Bothrops]

Who's going to be Auburn's qb?

[Coach34]

Who's going to be Auburn's qb?

They went back to Johnson at the end- but I dont know at this point. Both should be at least a little improved

[TrapGame]

That's why it's a bold prediction. Do the wheels fall off the Gus Bus?

[mparkerfd20]

Realistically, we're probably 7-5/8-4. However, depending on how things shake out for other teams, especially in terms of inner turmoil, egos, coaching staff purges, etc., I could definitely see us getting 1 maybe 2 more wins. A 9 or 10 win season isn't out of the realm of possibility.

I agree with your assessment completely. Before getting to your post I was going to post that I expect a minimum of 7 wins, but think 8 is very feasible. I won't be surprised with 9-10 really either.

[bulldawg28]

I think AU is the most intriguing match up.... Gus will be coaching for his job in Starkvegas.... IMO

He's as good as fired then.

[mic]

I'm not saying we cant beat Auburn- but I see them being better than us on the OL and DL- so thats a problem for us.

So because UPig was young last year on D and return 20/22- they cant improve a good bit? Teams cant improve with experience? They are doomed to be bad forever on D because they were young last year? C'mon Mane

On the other hand... We basically return 17/22 on defense...

[Johnson85]

Lot of boom or bust potential with this schedule.

We have 3 guaranteed OOC wins and I'd like to think we'll be heavy favorites against USCe.

I'd be ready to call BYU and UK wins if they were at home, and I'd be ready to call Arkansas a loss on the road. Instead all those games could go either way, although I'd hope the worst case scenario in the three is 1-2.

Then you have A&M who I think has a significant talent advantage but was a dumpster fire for much of last season. Auburn I think will have a solid talent advantage but is also flirting with dumpster fire status. That's two games that could range from two guaranteed win to a guaranteed loss and likely loss depending on the extent each team gets their shit together.

I think UM is probably a loss. They'll be a lot worse next year I think, but we won't be better and we'll be at oxford. But still not a guaranteed loss.

I think LSU and Bama will be almost certain losses, although LSU seemed to get worst as the year went on despite having a young team.

Realistically, we're probably in the six or seven win range. But depending on how the dominos fall, we wouldn't have to be that good of a team to win 9 games.

[djaymsu5]

Nobody thinks we can sneak a win against A&M at home with both of their starting QB's from last year transferring. The QB in their bowl game didn't look that consistent to me. He's got some experience but we will see what happens since they have a new QB coach now.

[BoomBoom]

I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised by our offense next year. We will have a LOT of QB read options - because we can afford to do it. We have at least three quality QBs who can run it so coaches do not have to worry as much about protecting our superstar.

This is what i'm afraid of. We'll get our 6 wins and a bowl game that way, but SECW defenses will eat us alive. The QB Read is old old news now. SECW teams have recruited and trained DLs to stop it without even having to think about it, and we won't have an elite OL either, nor a RB that can force attention or burn the D even after stuttering at the exchange point. It was new-ish in 2014, but it ain't 2014 anymore. We can run some QB Read, but it CANNOT be the base of the offense like it used to be.

[missouridawg]

Taysom hill returning to BYU us not good for us either. Was hoping he would hang them up.

[LC Dawg]

I say we go 8-4 unless John Bel Edwards shuts down LSU in which case we go 8-3.

[Reason2succeed]

I'm going to be an optimist and say that our OL gels and a running game emerges. 8-4/9-3. We lose to Alabama, LSU, and unfortunately OM because of another great game out of Chad Kelly. Atm will be pissed at Sumlin, Gus is on the hot seat, Muschamp sux on offense esp early in the season and Arkansas struggles offensively to replace their running game and QB.

[Coach34]

A&M has a transfer QB from Oklahoma that is going to help them alot

[TrapGame]

I'm going to be an optimist and say that our OL gels and a running game emerges. 8-4/9-3. We lose to Alabama, LSU, and unfortunately OM because of another great game out of Chad Kelly. Atm will be pissed at Sumlin, Gus is on the hot seat, Muschamp sux on offense esp early in the season and Arkansas struggles offensively to replace their running game and QB.

This is what I'm thinking too.

[BeardoMSU]

I'm going to be an optimist and say that our OL gels and a running game emerges. 8-4/9-3. We lose to Alabama, LSU, and unfortunately OM because of another great game out of Chad Kelly. Atm will be pissed at Sumlin, Gus is on the hot seat, Muschamp sux on offense esp early in the season and Arkansas struggles offensively to replace their running game and QB.

Me likes.

[defiantdog]

.........DATE .....OPPONENT
Sat, Sep 03 South Alabama Heavy FAV
Sat, Sep 10 South Carolina *FAV
Sat, Sep 17 @ LSU * Heavy DOG
Sat, Sep 24 @ UMass Heavy FAV
Sat, Oct 08 Auburn * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Fri, Oct 14 @ BYU Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 22 @ Kentucky * Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 29 Samford Heavy FAV
Sat, Nov 05 Texas A&M * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 12 @ Alabama * Heavy DOG
Sat, Nov 19 Arkansas * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 26 @ Ole Miss * Slight DOG

7-5/8-4, maybe?

I know I catch flak for it but 8 wins is our ceiling next year with a flat OL, a brand new QB and no running game. I expect us to go 6-6.... But 7-5 looks optimal with Boom as the USCe coach.

[dawgday166]

I'm new to posting here but I'll throw my 2 cents in. Been reading the forum for a while now tho. Before I do post I'll say this: I actually thought we might compete for West last year since both Bama and Auburn lost their entire offenses from year before, I thought JJ at Auburn was overrated going into season (in the highlights I saw, he ALWAYS threw to his primary receiver), there were nothing but srs and jrs on our preseason 2 deep (many of them with a decent amount of experience), and Dak was coming back. To finish 6th was big disappointment. Why we didn't have someone who had been consistently snapping the ball every day for 2 years before last year is beyond me. To have to be looking for a center heading into last year is just poor OL management IMO. To add something to that, in 2014 I came close to putting down a long shot bet at beginning of season to win NC. Knew that wouldn't happen but thought SEC W was real possibility. So I'm not normally negative but try to be cautiously optimistic.

This year I'm going to temper my expectations somewhat. So here are my tempered (and I believe realistic) expectations

I know Mullen can't beat Saban, Miles, Sumlin, or Freezes (3 - 19) ... when he plays them his asshole puckers up so tight you couldn't drive a roofing tack into it. Thus the team's assholes all pucker up too. Beilema is bound to get him sometime and next year will probably be it. Mullen may go 0-fer SEC West. Hope we can beat Auburn. We will probably beat one of either A&M or Auburn tho since they are at DWS.

That's 1 - 5 against SEC W. Out of others ... there will be one other loss everyone won't believe probably. So I say 6-6, 7-5 at best, 5-7 at worst. When you can't win more than 2 games in SEC W most years, you start off in the hole. 2014 was an anomaly.

We'll lose at least one game cause at end of game we either can't run a 2 to 3 minute offense or we can't stop a 2 - 3 minute offense. Under Mullen, we've never been good at either one of those things (Even with a 5th year Heisman candidate QB). He's gotta be the worst clock manager for having been and OC that I've ever seen. We'll gain a ton of yards against bad teams and score 17 or less against good teams, which will put us up in top 3 to 5 of SEC in Total Offense (so "our offense won't be the problem"). By midseason he'll have thrown his defensive staff under bus at least once for losing a 28 - 17 game, while making excuses such as "we're just not executing like we need to" when we can't block well enough to run the damn ball. Desper may be a great kid but I'm not sure he hit too many folks in any game last year.

Mullen's been consistent about finishing 4th - 6th in SEC W. Probably will be the case next year too. I'm betting 5th or 6th.

Those are my thoughts and I'm sticking to them until proven otherwise. Hope I'm way underestimating the team tho and Mullen proves me woefully wrong.

[GreenheadDawg]

My head tells me 7-5 but my heart tells me 6-6. I think we will all find out just how vital Dak was to our success. I'm excited to see which QB steps up. I think we could be better on defense except d-line and CB. if we are better or worse on defense will be determined by d-line play and who steps up

[tcdog70]

We lose to Bama and LSU win the rest. MGK is going to get beat up and won't play against Us and we whip that Reb ass. We will Run the Ball with our QBs, we have three that can play. so we have no fear. Our defense will have plus turn overs this year, and Our new Coaches will have our defense playing there asses off.

[bulldawg28]

We lose to Bama and LSU win the rest. MGK is going to get beat up and won't play against Us and we whip that Reb ass. We will Run the Ball with our QBs, we have three that can play. so we have no fear. Our defense will have plus turn overs this year, and Our new Coaches will have our defense playing there asses off.


No problems with that scenario either. However, Some will still bitch we lost to Bama. Then they'll post the record of A&M, LSU, and Bama .

[dawgday166]

No problems with that scenario either. However, Some will still bitch we lost to Bama. Then they'll post the record of A&M, LSU, and Bama .

I kinda don't blame them if they do. Mullen has said we'll "compete for championships". Can't do that if you can't even come close to beating Bama.

I've given up on beating Tusk's Dark Lord. I kinda get tired of not only losing, but getting thumped by them. Mullen's O has only scored more than 10 against them 1 time in 7 years, and 10 points only once also. Gonna have to wait on Saban to retire ... Mullen will never beat him.

[TrapGame]

The way this team played last year should not be an indication of how they play this year. There will be new wrinkles in the defense and on offense Mullen always customizes the play book to the QB - worked great for Lee, Relf and Dak's first year as starter but not so much for TR. And I've got a feeling we actually see a better running game b/c Mullen always starts his dual threat guys on pure read option. If we see improvement in the OL and the secondary starts getting turnovers, we'll be just fine next year. 8-4 with a decent shot at 9-3.

[Jack Lambert]

I'm new to posting here but I'll throw my 2 cents in. Been reading the forum for a while now tho. Before I do post I'll say this: I actually thought we might compete for West last year since both Bama and Auburn lost their entire offenses from year before, I thought JJ at Auburn was overrated going into season (in the highlights I saw, he ALWAYS threw to his primary receiver), there were nothing but srs and jrs on our preseason 2 deep (many of them with a decent amount of experience), and Dak was coming back. To finish 6th was big disappointment. Why we didn't have someone who had been consistently snapping the ball every day for 2 years before last year is beyond me. To have to be looking for a center heading into last year is just poor OL management IMO. To add something to that, in 2014 I came close to putting down a long shot bet at beginning of season to win NC. Knew that wouldn't happen but thought SEC W was real possibility. So I'm not normally negative but try to be cautiously optimistic.

This year I'm going to temper my expectations somewhat. So here are my tempered (and I believe realistic) expectations

I know Mullen can't beat Saban, Miles, Sumlin, or Freezes (3 - 19) ... when he plays them his asshole puckers up so tight you couldn't drive a roofing tack into it. Thus the team's assholes all pucker up too. Beilema is bound to get him sometime and next year will probably be it. Mullen may go 0-fer SEC West. Hope we can beat Auburn. We will probably beat one of either A&M or Auburn tho since they are at DWS.

That's 1 - 5 against SEC W. Out of others ... there will be one other loss everyone won't believe probably. So I say 6-6, 7-5 at best, 5-7 at worst. When you can't win more than 2 games in SEC W most years, you start off in the hole. 2014 was an anomaly.

We'll lose at least one game cause at end of game we either can't run a 2 to 3 minute offense or we can't stop a 2 - 3 minute offense. Under Mullen, we've never been good at either one of those things (Even with a 5th year Heisman candidate QB). He's gotta be the worst clock manager for having been and OC that I've ever seen. We'll gain a ton of yards against bad teams and score 17 or less against good teams, which will put us up in top 3 to 5 of SEC in Total Offense (so "our offense won't be the problem"). By midseason he'll have thrown his defensive staff under bus at least once for losing a 28 - 17 game, while making excuses such as "we're just not executing like we need to" when we can't block well enough to run the damn ball. Desper may be a great kid but I'm not sure he hit too many folks in any game last year.

Mullen's been consistent about finishing 4th - 6th in SEC W. Probably will be the case next year too. I'm betting 5th or 6th.

Those are my thoughts and I'm sticking to them until proven otherwise. Hope I'm way underestimating the team tho and Mullen proves me woefully wrong.

We all knew why Freeze has been winning and now it has been proven.


By the way Ole Miss sux and Freeze also cheated on his wife.

[BB30]

I see 6-6,7-5 as well. We will miss Dak a lot. If our o-line doesn't make some drastic improvement it could be a rough year. Hard to run the read option when you can't block anyone. I think the USCE game will be a good test to see where we are at. And honestly we will get a good idea of the improvement our o line has made against LSU.

[QuadrupleOption]

.........DATE .....OPPONENT
Sat, Sep 03 South Alabama Heavy FAV
Sat, Sep 10 South Carolina *FAV
Sat, Sep 17 @ LSU * Heavy DOG
Sat, Sep 24 @ UMass Heavy FAV
Sat, Oct 08 Auburn * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Fri, Oct 14 @ BYU Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 22 @ Kentucky * Slight FAV
Sat, Oct 29 Samford Heavy FAV
Sat, Nov 05 Texas A&M * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 12 @ Alabama * Heavy DOG
Sat, Nov 19 Arkansas * Slight FAV/TOSS UP
Sat, Nov 26 @ Ole Miss * Slight DOG

7-5/8-4, maybe?

Slam Dunk Wins: South Alabama, UMass, Samford.
Likely Wins: South Carolina, Auburn, BYU, Kentucky, A&M, Arkansas
Toss Ups: Ole Miss
Likely Losses: LSU, Bama.

So I think 10-2 is not completely off the table, but most likely 8-4 or 9-3.

[BulldogBacker]

.........DATE .....OPPONENT
Sat, Sep 03 South Alabama Heavy WIN
Sat, Sep 10 South Carolina WIN
Sat, Sep 17 @ LSU LOSE
Sat, Sep 24 @ UMass WIN
Sat, Oct 08 Auburn WIN
Fri, Oct 14 @ BYU WIN
Sat, Oct 22 @ Kentucky WIN/LOSE
Sat, Oct 29 Samford WIN
Sat, Nov 05 Texas A&M WIN
Sat, Nov 12 @ Alabama LOSE
Sat, Nov 19 Arkansas WIN
Sat, Nov 26 @ Ole Miss WIN

Before last season, I was rather pessimistic. Based on what I perceived as weaknesses at TE and Safety, I saw 6-6 and 7-5 likely. Based on initial evaluations, I am happy about the replacement for Diaz, and the rebuilt defensive coaching. We will be more flexible on offense than we were the first half of last season. Dak had broken ribs and was prevented from running much. We were also showcasing his NFL potential.

Looking to the 2016 season, I think we will be a little green at QB the first three or four games. However, I think our QB's will be more mobile than Dak was his first few games. That still makes LSU a probable loss the 3rd game of the season. On offense, the offensive line should be better. We will be very good at WR and TE. Ross was already the "Go-to" WR this past season and should be again. Gray will have a breakout year. I think the higher emphasis on running the ball will help the line and RB's. We have better RB's than people think.

On defense, we are 1-2 DT's away from having a terrific D-Line. We might see A.J. Jefferson moved inside. He was a biscuit away from 280 last season. When we go 3-4, he will be at DE. Jeff Simmons will get to play as a Freshman, and, likely at SDE and a 3-4 DE. Anfernee Mullins will be a pleasant surprise. So will Johnathan Calvin. I like our 2 deep on the DL, but 3rd level depth is a question. I like our starting LB's. I expect Richie Brown to be All SEC. I think Leo Lewis starts beside him inside. Gerri Green may play a flex DE/LB. My concern, as well as that of many others, will be at CB. If we can't cover 1 on 1, we will see more zone. Safeties were better last year, even with the youth. They will be a strength this season.

In short, I see us being in the top half of the league in both offense and defense, but not any challenge to Alabama. I am actually a little more optimistic than last preseason. I think we will be on the upside of 8-4, likely 9-3, and with an upset as high as 10-2. We had a Junior dominated roster last season. We will have a Senior dominated roster this year, and that will help us win a couple of games most think we shouldn't.