After 8 Years, Why Should I believe Mullen Will Become a Better Recruiter?

[ShotgunDawg]

This is just a topic of discussion and I'm looking for some hope backed by reason an intelligence.

I was hopeful that last year was a sign that Mullen was beginning to figure out recruiting, but this year was a real kick in the nuts.

I keep hearing about staff changes, JR day changes, blah, blah, blah, and, while I think some of those can incrementally help, how likely is it that after 8 years Mullen will suddenly find the right formula?

Can you think of any job or industry were people significantly improve at a certain portion of their job after 8 years? If you haven't figured it out by now, how and why are you going to figure it out tomorrow?

I'm looking for hope here because the realist in me is beginning to get concerned that all the staff and strategy adjustments in the world, just aren't going to make a big difference.

Any thoughts?

[chef dixon]

MSU is not an easy place to recruit to. Truth hurts.

[Coach34]

Come April- we will have 12 players drafted the last 2 years. So how is he not recruiting well???

The problem has been none of them are OL guys. In our 6 losses the last 2 years- our OL has had their ass handed to them by SEC DL's- and given us absolutely no chance to win

[Coach34]

MSU is not an easy place to recruit to. Truth hurts.

we will be top 1/3 of the SEC in draft picks by the end of the 2016 NFL draft

[mparkerfd20]

You've made up your mind. Nothing will convince you.

Although holding Hevesy accountable by firing him might be a start.

[Taog Redloh]

2010: #33
2011: #35
2012: #22
2013: #25
2014: #35
2015: #18
2016: #31

Our recrootin is not that bad.

[chef dixon]

we will be top 1/3 of the SEC in draft picks by the end of the 2016 NFL draft

That's a testament to Mullen getting the correct guys. Still doesn't change the fact it's not easy to recruit here compared to over half our league.

[Taog Redloh]

Come April- we will have 12 players drafted the last 2 years. So how is he not recruiting well???

The problem has been none of them are OL guys. In our 6 losses the last 2 years- our OL has had their ass handed to them by SEC DL's- and given us absolutely no chance to win
Like

[ShotgunDawg]

Come April- we will have 12 players drafted the last 2 years. So how is he not recruiting well???

The problem has been none of them are OL guys. In our 6 losses the last 2 years- our OL has had their ass handed to them by SEC DL's- and given us absolutely no chance to win

I agree with you and there is no doubt that Mullen is an excellent evaluator. But recruiting also must be evaluated from the perspective of: what percentage of the players that you truly want are you getting?

That's were I'm looking for hope.

[ShotgunDawg]

2010: #33
2011: #35
2012: #22
2013: #25
2014: #35
2015: #18
2016: #31

Our recrootin is not that bad.

I never said it was bad. Just wondering if there was hope that it could improve.

What we've been doing is solid, but, in order to win a championship, it must improve.

What hope should I have that that can happen?

[Ifyouonlyknew]

It's not Mullen's job to be a great recruiter. It's his job to be a great closer. Teams that recruit really well have staffs that recruit really well not a HC who does most of the recruiting. This is where my hope is that we've improved. The new hires need to be better recruiters than the guys who left. If they are then he automatically becomes a better recruiter.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

I never said it was bad. Just wondering if there was hope that it could improve.

What we've been doing is solid, but, in order to win a championship, it must improve.

What hope should I have that that can happen?

To win a championship you have to consistently recruit in the top 10. Like every year, not every 3 years (Hi OM), or every once in a while. If you're talking about winning a national championship until somebody breaks that string it won't happen & if it does happen it's probably a team from another conference who got hot in the playoffs because it's very hard to do in the SEC without elite talent.

[ShotgunDawg]

It's not Mullen's job to be a great recruiter. It's his job to be a great closer. Teams that recruit really well have staffs that recruit really well not a HC who does most of the recruiting. This is where my hope is that we've improved. The new hires need to be better recruiters than the guys who left. If they are then he automatically becomes a better recruiter.

Excellent post exactly what I was looking for.

Hope your right about the staff being as important as you say.

[Commercecomet24]

Come April- we will have 12 players drafted the last 2 years. So how is he not recruiting well???

The problem has been none of them are OL guys. In our 6 losses the last 2 years- our OL has had their ass handed to them by SEC DL's- and given us absolutely no chance to win

This is the correct answer. We have a lot of talent, the problem has been the ol has lagged behind. We get the ol fixed and we have the talent everywhere else to beat anyone. The ol the last 2 years has prevented us from taking the next step into the top tier of the SEC. Mullen has done a fine job finding talent at the other positions. It's imperative the ol improve. Only thing holding us back imo

[Commercecomet24]

It's not Mullen's job to be a great recruiter. It's his job to be a great closer. Teams that recruit really well have staffs that recruit really well not a HC who does most of the recruiting. This is where my hope is that we've improved. The new hires need to be better recruiters than the guys who left. If they are then he automatically becomes a better recruiter.

Agree completely. I really believe Mullen has addressed this with national recruiting guys like Sirmon and Buckley and hopefully if rumors are true we will soon be hiring someone that recruits the state well.

[Taog Redloh]

I never said it was bad. Just wondering if there was hope that it could improve.

What we've been doing is solid, but, in order to win a championship, it must improve.

What hope should I have that that can happen?
As of now, judging by history, it can't. We can't win a natty (along with 115 or so other teams) without elite recrootin. Only about 15 teams can truly do what it takes. I think, to have any chance, we need to maximize HS crootin, like we're doing, mine the JUCOs, and innovate. That's the reality of it.

[Joe Schmedlap]

MSU is not an easy place to recruit to. Truth hurts.


Is not a hindrance for baseball or either basketball program.

[ShotgunDawg]

Is not a hindrance for baseball or either basketball program.

Different sports.

In baseball, we are Tennessee in history and resources. Baseball agents also push kids to certain schools.

In basketball, you only need to land 2 or 3 guys. We got Simmons, so there's your Malik Newman. Shoe companies are also involved in basketball, which makes it different.

Football is much more of an "all hands on deck" recruiting process

[DistrictDawg92]

Don't think you will see a change as long as Mullen is here. You will continue to see him recruit kids that fit out program. Mullen's recipe is what it is, 4-6 4* recruits from MS, maybe 1 or 2 out of state 4* guys with some connection to us, 2 or 3 projects that are physical specimens and/or only have 1 or 2 years of football experience, 3-5 JUCO guys for depth and fill in the rest of the class with overlooked 3 stars throughout the Southeast. You will never see us have a top 10 class unless we do what Ole Miss is doing, and in that case we would have already got the death penalty two years ago. I think the 2015 class is probably the ceiling for us as far as recruiting class ranking goes. Mullen is the most successful coach in MSU history I think he is recruiting just fine.

Mullen tries to recruit guys that will turn into 4 and 5 star guys after 2-3 years in the program, and he has had a ton of success with this. Think Bmac, Slay, Banks, Gabe Jackson, Preston Smith, Dak, Bear, Jrob. The list goes on and on. I would almost guarantee that if you re-ranked classes after they graduated/went pro, the majority of Mullen's classes would be re-ranked much higher than they originally were.

[BrunswickDawg]

It's not Mullen's job to be a great recruiter. It's his job to be a great closer. Teams that recruit really well have staffs that recruit really well not a HC who does most of the recruiting. This is where my hope is that we've improved. The new hires need to be better recruiters than the guys who left. If they are then he automatically becomes a better recruiter.
I think another factor is the number of off-field positions. While they may not be recruiters, having more eyes scouting for talent, grading tape, and doing whatever it is all that staff does at Bama is where we are lagging behind. They have 5-6 people doing what we have 1 person doing, and it means we are always behind.

[Jack Lambert]

I would say we probably won more games the past five years then many of the SEC teams who finish higher then us in recruiting and some of those are in the Suck Hole SEC East.

[Schultzy]

Fwiw he has signed the number1 player in the state 4 of last 5 years.

[ShotgunDawg]

Don't think you will see a change as long as Mullen is here. You will continue to see him recruit kids that fit out program. Mullen's recipe is what it is, 4-6 4* recruits from MS, maybe 1 or 2 out of state 4* guys with some connection to us, 2 or 3 projects that are physical specimens and/or only have 1 or 2 years of football experience, 3-5 JUCO guys for depth and fill in the rest of the class with overlooked 3 stars throughout the Southeast. You will never see us have a top 10 class unless we do what Ole Miss is doing, and in that case we would have already got the death penalty two years ago. I think the 2015 class is probably the ceiling for us as far as recruiting class ranking goes. Mullen is the most successful coach in MSU history I think he is recruiting just fine.

Mullen tries to recruit guys that will turn into 4 and 5 star guys after 2-3 years in the program, and he has had a ton of success with this. Think Bmac, Slay, Banks, Gabe Jackson, Preston Smith, Dak, Bear, Jrob. The list goes on and on. I would almost guarantee that if you re-ranked classes after they graduated/went pro, the majority of Mullen's classes would be re-ranked much higher than they originally were.

Great post and I mostly agree.

My only contention is that, due to having a developmental program, we often only get 1 really good year out of a high draft pick, which hurts our depth in other years. There is always a hole.

Whereas Bama, may get two or three good years out of their best players, due to them being more ready to play from day 1. This enhances their depth and leads to them having very few holes.

So, I agree that at the end of the day, our classes look great, but that doesn't mean that we had that type of player for all 3 or 4 years.

[GreenheadDawg]

2010: #33
2011: #35
2012: #22
2013: #25
2014: #35
2015: #18
2016: #31

Our recrootin is not that bad.

I consider the 30's pretty bad. In the SEC you might as well be 130

[dawgs]

MSU is not an easy place to recruit to. Truth hurts.

And ole miss is?

[DistrictDawg92]

Great post and I mostly agree.

My only contention is that, due to having a developmental program, we often only get 1 really good year out of a high draft pick, which hurts our depth in other years. There is always a hole.

Whereas Bama, may get two or three good years out of their best players, due to them being more ready to play from day 1. This enhances their depth and leads to them having very few holes.

So, I agree that at the end of the day, our classes look great, but that doesn't mean that we had that type of player for all 3 or 4 years.

Agree with everything you said, but as long as you are comparing us to Bama you will never be happy. However, I 100% agree that a developmental program leaves almost no room for error or retention, and that is why as a developmental program you must recruit character just as much as talent. We have been screwed lately by Juniors leaving early, career ending injuries and projects not panning out, however I think that is more of an anomaly than a norm.

While I think everyone can agree that it would've been nice to sign 7 or 8 more guys in this class, I would also hope that everyone can agree that it is good that we didn't fill those spots with fillers, like we did with the 2011 class. Fillers screw up your numbers and create a need for "trimming of the fat" later down the road, which is not a good look for any program.

[Jack Lambert]

And ole miss is?

Well they found the $olution.

[dawgs]

I consider the 30's pretty bad. In the SEC you might as well be 130

Yep. Being consistently in the 15-20 range is realistic for our program with occasional years as top 10ish classes when the chips fall right.

[maroonmania]

we will be top 1/3 of the SEC in draft picks by the end of the 2016 NFL draft

We have some individually very good players no doubt that get drafted, we just don't have near enough of them. When we play the upper tier SEC teams its fairly obvious to see we are at an overall talent disadvantage, especially along the lines. That's why we aren't winning many of those games. We could have played Bama and UNM this past season 10 times and we would probably would lose 8 or 9 of those routinely because we were just at a sheer talent disadvantage. My biggest disappointment, especially with this past recruiting season, is that our recruiting profile doesn't seem to be rising with our program profile. We don't seem to be recruiting much better now than we were after Mullen's first few seasons at least rankings wise. I will say the bottom half of the class is probably more solid than it used to be but we are still missing on way too many of our top targets, especially this year with guys right on our doorstep.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

And ole miss is?

OM isn't an elite recruiting team either.

[bulldogcountry1]

First and foremost, it's not as bad as most of us think. I also believe we could do better than we are doing by working harder, not cheating.

The UM thing is hurting us for multiple reasons:

1. UM is dancing with the devil and reaping the rewards (for now). They get 3 or 4 players every year that we would get if we were playing by the same rules.

2. Because UM is being so reckless, we can't afford to try to play the game with the NCAA sniffing around. Instead, I imagine we are being all the more careful about our recruiting tactics to make sure we can't be implicated in anything. We are just waiting it out.

[Coach34]

We have some individually very good players no doubt that get drafted, we just don't have near enough of them. When we play the upper tier SEC teams its fairly obvious to see we are at an overall talent disadvantage, especially along the lines.

Now the OL is really the only place we are at a disadvantage. Our DL gave Bama fits- but we did nothing offensively to gain momentum or give them rest. Then we start losing big.

We are losing because of our OL recruiting

[DistrictDawg92]

I consider the 30's pretty bad. In the SEC you might as well be 130

Auburn State
2010: #5 #33
2011: #2 #35
2012: #8 #22
2013: #13 #25
2014: #8 #35
2015: #3 #18
2016: #12 #31
Head to head past 4 years: (3-1) Mississippi State;
Overall record past 4 years: Auburn(30-22) MSU(34-18)

I know some statistics can be "selective" for an agenda, and you don't have to tell me that recruiting rankings matter, but I will tell you that they aren't everything.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Auburn State
2010: #5 #33
2011: #2 #35
2012: #8 #22
2013: #13 #25
2014: #8 #35
2015: #3 #18
2016: #12 #31
Head to head past 4 years: (3-1) Mississippi State;
Overall record past 4 years: Auburn(30-22) MSU(34-18)

I know some statistics can be "selective" for an agenda, and you don't have to tell me that recruiting rankings matter, but I will tell you that they aren't everything.

I see where you're going but is that more about poor coaching at Auburn or superior evaluation at MSU?

[BrunswickDawg]

Auburn State
2010: #5 #33
2011: #2 #35
2012: #8 #22
2013: #13 #25
2014: #8 #35
2015: #3 #18
2016: #12 #31
Head to head past 4 years: (3-1) Mississippi State;
Overall record past 4 years: Auburn(30-22) MSU(34-18)

I know some statistics can be "selective" for an agenda, and you don't have to tell me that recruiting rankings matter, but I will tell you that they aren't everything.
Part of it is a byproduct of how deep the SEC is. Yes, we get some because we are SEC, but our 11th in the SEC recruiting would be 6th in the Big 10, 5th in the ACC or B12, and 7th in the Pac 12. That 11th clouds our judgement sometimes too.

[Dawgtini]

As of now, judging by history, it can't. We can't win a natty (along with 115 or so other teams) without elite recrootin. Only about 15 teams can truly do what it takes. I think, to have any chance, we need to maximize HS crootin, like we're doing, mine the JUCOs, and innovate. That's the reality of it.

just 2-3 more studs on the o-line and we had a shot in 14. I think Mullen is getting the "elite talent" and is maximizing it, he just needs to get it on the OLINE as well.

[DistrictDawg92]

I see where you're going but is that more about poor coaching at Auburn or superior evaluation at MSU?

Yeah no doubt Auburn has some coaching issues, but they fact that the 2010, 2011 and 2012 classes are the main core of guys that went 3-1 against Auburn is astonishing. Through that span they averaged the #5 class in the nation while we averaged the #30 class. That talent gap is too large to dismiss as just poor coaching.

[starkvegasdawg]

Well they found the $olution.

Make that solutions.

//\\(0)//\\

[gravedigger]

This is just a topic of discussion and I'm looking for some hope backed by reason an intelligence.

I was hopeful that last year was a sign that Mullen was beginning to figure out recruiting, but this year was a real kick in the nuts.

I keep hearing about staff changes, JR day changes, blah, blah, blah, and, while I think some of those can incrementally help, how likely is it that after 8 years Mullen will suddenly find the right formula?

Can you think of any job or industry were people significantly improve at a certain portion of their job after 8 years? If you haven't figured it out by now, how and why are you going to figure it out tomorrow?

I'm looking for hope here because the realist in me is beginning to get concerned that all the staff and strategy adjustments in the world, just aren't going to make a big difference.

Any thoughts?

I think he'll solve the problem temporarily at times and make it look like 'he's' changed when really it's just a lucky hire. He was fortunate to have Turner back. I think if Buckley, or the new DC or someone like that break out and start recruiting better than our history we'll be faced with paying big money to keep them for that fact alone. Thing is, I think it's in their nature to be appreciated more for their coaching than their recruiting.

Mullen may have to decide in his mind to hold one or two slots for average coaches that he's willing to pay the big bucks for their recruiting alone. But remember, think of Richard Williams and Standsbury. Eventually Stans was going to get that coaching job and we had to give it a shot. Same will be true for football. Mullen can hold onto Hevesy, but he has to find someone to be our bagman. I don't think Mullen or Hevesy will ever have that moment of clarity and suddenly become better recruiters themselves.

[Dawgtini]

Now the OL is really the only place we are at a disadvantage. Our DL gave Bama fits- but we did nothing offensively to gain momentum or give them rest. Then we start losing big.

We are losing because of our OL recruiting

I agree. If we had Arkansas' O-Line last year to go with no other changes on our team, we would have had a shot at the playoffs.

[chef dixon]

And ole miss is?

Not really. Easier than MSU, yes.

[DistrictDawg92]

I think TCU is our twin program. They recruit an area that is dominated by the big schools like Texas, A&M, OU, LSU, etc. From 2010-2016 they averaged the 38th ranked recruiting class nationally. However, Texas, just like the deep South, is littered with overlooked guys that will turn into 4 and 5 star guys 2-3 years down the road. TCU has benefited from playing in a weaker conference than us, but I do think our programs are very similar.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

I think TCU is our twin program. They recruit an area that is dominated by the big schools like Texas, A&M, OU, LSU, etc. From 2010-2016 they averaged the 38th ranked recruiting class nationally. However, Texas, just like the deep South, is littered with overlooked guys that will turn into 4 and 5 star guys 2-3 years down the road. TCU has benefited from playing in a weaker conference than us, but I do think our programs are very similar.

If we switched conferences you're probably right.

[cheewgumm]

Now the OL is really the only place we are at a disadvantage. Our DL gave Bama fits- but we did nothing offensively to gain momentum or give them rest. Then we start losing big.

We are losing because of our OL recruiting



This is exactly right. OL gets better, we get better. The end.

[Dawgbite]

Money, Snatch, and Championship rings get the attention of a lot of 18 year old kids. We either don't have or don't use any of the three in our recruiting therefore we are at a decided disadvantage when dealing with a certain group of our targets. Its a catch-22, without the best players , you are not likely to get the rings. The other two just are not used by our staff and I'm personally glad thats not what Mullen is selling on the recruiting trail. We caught lightening in a bottle for 5 weeks last year but we just couldn't sustain it. We may do it again and when we do, it will garner the attention of a few recruits.

[CottonDog]

And ole miss is?

Under NCAA investigation for cheating.

Did I do that right?

[JDog13]

I didn't read any of this thread

[Dawgbite]

I didn't read any of this thread

You're just as well. Same shit, different day. Beats actually working though!

[War Machine Dawg]

Now the OL is really the only place we are at a disadvantage. Our DL gave Bama fits- but we did nothing offensively to gain momentum or give them rest. Then we start losing big.

We are losing because of our OL recruiting

Yep. That's why I'm still beyond pissed we only signed 3 OL in this class. We need to be signing a minimum of 5 EVERY year. The fact that not one Mullen OL has been drafted in now 7 years is telling. We may not be OL U, but we've always had a guy on the OL get drafted ever 3 or so years going back to the Kang all the way through the Crxxm Error. And Crxxm found Gabe, who is the only OL drafted under Mullen.

[JoseBrown]

Shotgun, I'm gonna go in a different direction than everyone else did. We all know where our weaknesses on the field are. We all know the recruiting deficiencies of some on the staff now and before all the knew hires were made. We don't know yet how the new hires will produce. But I'm going to go in a slightly different direction to ease your mind about our future recruiting, and I firmly believe this should be considered. We all know Dan at least had contact with one school over the offseason about their head coaching position. It's been well rumored and speculated he may have had contact with 3-4 total schools. At some point Dan will move on for whatever reason. I think that he found out the results he's had here aren't good enough to get him out of here at a job he would prefer to have. And the only way he can do that is to improve on our success. That means we need to be signing better players. That comes down to recruiting. His hires this offseason all come in known as solid recruiters.
So, I'm saying Dan found out we will have to have better recruiters to sign better players to have more success than previous years on the field. Therefore, Dan's way to get out is to recruit better. Hope that helps you.

[dawgs]

Auburn State
2010: #5 #33
2011: #2 #35
2012: #8 #22
2013: #13 #25
2014: #8 #35
2015: #3 #18
2016: #12 #31
Head to head past 4 years: (3-1) Mississippi State;
Overall record past 4 years: Auburn(30-22) MSU(34-18)

I know some statistics can be "selective" for an agenda, and you don't have to tell me that recruiting rankings matter, but I will tell you that they aren't everything.

Exceptions =/= rules

[dawgs]

Under NCAA investigation for cheating.

Did I do that right?

We'll see if anything comes out of it. Unc and Miami have me very skeptical.

[dawgs]

OM isn't an elite recruiting team either.

Last 4 years according to 247 composite:

2016 - 6th
2015 - 17th
2014 - 15th
2013 - 8th

I'm not saying they are bama or lsu, but they are kicking the shit out of us and recruiting at a level we only dream about.

[bulldawg28]

Last 4 years according to 247 composite:

2016 - 6th
2015 - 17th
2014 - 15th
2013 - 8th

I'm not saying they are bama or lsu, but they are kicking the shit out of us and recruiting at a level we only dream about.

How many players have gone to the NFL from those rankings?....I'll wait. It's ridiculous that people don't get recruiting rankings are done by novice. The amateur eye can spot a 5 star IN HIGH SCHOOL.

[Percho]

This is just a topic of discussion and I'm looking for some hope backed by reason an intelligence.

I was hopeful that last year was a sign that Mullen was beginning to figure out recruiting, but this year was a real kick in the nuts.

I keep hearing about staff changes, JR day changes, blah, blah, blah, and, while I think some of those can incrementally help, how likely is it that after 8 years Mullen will suddenly find the right formula?

Can you think of any job or industry were people significantly improve at a certain portion of their job after 8 years? If you haven't figured it out by now, how and why are you going to figure it out tomorrow?

I'm looking for hope here because the realist in me is beginning to get concerned that all the staff and strategy adjustments in the world, just aren't going to make a big difference.

Any thoughts?

Do you not think that over all we get better players today than in the past? I would say the only one we actually missed on this year we probably should have gotten is Lashley. Small class but rated better compositely.

[Coach34]

Last 4 years according to 247 composite:

2016 - 6th
2015 - 17th
2014 - 15th
2013 - 8th

I'm not saying they are bama or lsu, but they are kicking the shit out of us and recruiting at a level we only dream about.

and we will both probably have the same number of players drafted this April

[Really Clark?]

We'll see if anything comes out of it. Unc and Miami have me very skeptical.

What about UNC has you skeptical? They haven't released the NOA yet since more violations were turned in. Miami was screwed up. They still got 2 years post season ban and 3 years probation and 9 scholarship reductions on top of what they had already self imposed during the investigation.

[dawgs]

and we will both probably have the same number of players drafted this April

Yeah they've been running circles around us for 2 years despite us having our best player in program history under center because they have more overall talent than we do.

[dawgs]

How many players have gone to the NFL from those rankings?....I'll wait. It's ridiculous that people don't get recruiting rankings are done by novice. The amateur eye can spot a 5 star IN HIGH SCHOOL.

Umm well consider the draft this spring is the first time any of those players are eligible for the NFL draft, none this far. But that'll change soon enough.

And if the novices doing the recruiting rankings truly didn't know shit and are purely basing their rankings on who gets commitable offers from Saban, urban, harbough, etc., then that's still indicative of that player's quality and potential. And even if they are novices taking stabs in the dark, the % of 5* that pan out/make the NFL is higher than the % of 4* and under, 4* pan out at a higher rate than 3* and under. It's simple math. Load up with more 4-5* guys and the odds those guys turn into studs is much higher than taking a class of hardworking 3*.

It's also worth noting that under current recruiting rankings for schools with a fanbase big enough to register a significant number of clicks, anyone that school gets committed is going to end up a low 3*. Really guys rated <85 on 247 composite are usually guys that would've been rated 2* 10 years ago.

It's time the msu fanbase recognizes that while hardwork is important, hardwork doesn't always make up the difference in pure talent between a class of 3* and a class of 4-5*. It's also time to recognize that highly rated prima donnas during the recruiting process are often times still hardworkers once they get on campus. Maybe it's the inferiority complex of our fans that would rather take the scrappy underdog than the cocky asshole, but the reality is the scrappy underdog gets his ass kicked by the cocky asshole more often than not.

[Dawgface]

Last 4 years according to 247 composite:

2016 - 6th
2015 - 17th
2014 - 15th
2013 - 8th

I'm not saying they are bama or lsu, but they are kicking the shit out of us and recruiting at a level we only dream about.

But they will be going to the NCAA's version of jail pretty soon according to the 'experts'. Time will tell the tale.

[engie]

We'll see if anything comes out of it. Unc and Miami have me very skeptical.

Say what?

Miami had 2 years of postseason bans. This cost them one trip to the ACC title game as well as two bowl games. Three years probation. 9 scholarships in those 3 years on top of what they had self-imposed previously.

[gravedigger]

As of now, judging by history, it can't. We can't win a natty (along with 115 or so other teams) without elite recrootin. Only about 15 teams can truly do what it takes. I think, to have any chance, we need to maximize HS crootin, like we're doing, mine the JUCOs, and innovate. That's the reality of it.

Then I ask, what is elite recruiting? Sure, it means landing a Treadwell or an AJ. It also means avoiding a CJ or a brassel. Fact it a coaches personal rating system of talent and coach ability is way more important than a recruiting website's.

I think the juco angle is essential to shore up gaps in the OL, TE, and CB spots when needed.

I have believed for years that what is defined as elite is either induced (bama has the best recruits because bama recruits them) or relative (because everybody doesn't need the same thing each year) or propaganda ( because of an excess of exposure) or overlooked ( because a kids drive and chemistry with a staff is immeasurable).

The question isn't why does bama always win. The question is why Texas,Notre dame, Penn state, Michigan, s. Cal, LSU, Tenn,georgia don't challenge more often if they land the classes they are continually said to have. It would be a near impossibility for them to have one down year let alone the amounts they have had if the current rating system were even remotely accurate.

[Dawgowar]

Say what?

Miami had 2 years of postseason bans. This cost them one trip to the ACC title game as well as two bowl games. Three years probation. 9 scholarships in those 3 years on top of what they had self-imposed previously.

Not to mention 12 players had to make full restitution before being eligible to resume play. Recruits limited to one home game ticket.

All would agree they deserved more but the process was so strung out it has really hurt them. All you need do is look at the decline of home game attendance. Loss of swagger. These Canes are pretty downgraded

[dawgs]

Then I ask, what is elite recruiting? Sure, it means landing a Treadwell or an AJ. It also means avoiding a CJ or a brassel. Fact it a coaches personal rating system of talent and coach ability is way more important than a recruiting website's.

I think the juco angle is essential to shore up gaps in the OL, TE, and CB spots when needed.

I have believed for years that what is defined as elite is either induced (bama has the best recruits because bama recruits them) or relative (because everybody doesn't need the same thing each year) or propaganda ( because of an excess of exposure) or overlooked ( because a kids drive and chemistry with a staff is immeasurable).

The question isn't why does bama always win. The question is why Texas,Notre dame, Penn state, Michigan, s. Cal, LSU, Tenn,georgia don't challenge more often if they land the classes they are continually said to have. It would be a near impossibility for them to have one down year let alone the amounts they have had if the current rating system were even remotely accurate.

Well, to answer your point about avoiding busts, when bama or lsu (other than QB) land a 4-5* bust, they have another 4-5* behind them ready to step in. When we land a 4-5* bust, it's usually a mid-range 3* with a limited ceiling waiting to step in. Hell, a lot of bama's and lsu's busts would probably be considered successes for us because even if a 4-5* guy plays like a solid 3* for us he's not losing his job, but at bama or lsu they'd just move on.

As to why don't all those elite programs compete for titles every year, well ultimately only a couple of teams each year end up with a shot at a natty. That said, look at who has played for a natty the last 20 years and figure out how many built their teams off of recruiting classes rated 20+. Hell, really there's only been a couple of runner-up that have built their teams off recruiting classes ranked in the teens...Michael Vick va tech and Oregon are the only 2 that come to mind. Even when bama and Ohio st are struggling, they have talent we could only dream of having, which is why there's often quick turnarounds when a really good HC is brought in.