OK, after this Manziel stuff, I'm on the Fire Bracky bandwagon.....

[Goat Holder]

....well, at least for interwebs purposes. And I'm more convinced that MSU has the most fractured, and selfish, fanbase in the country.

This is how it is. I don't know what's truth and what's not. All I know is this:

Cases 1-2:
- Cam Newton (Auburn). Lawyered up. Nobody talked. Nobody got busted. Nobody got declared ineligible (at least for more than an hour). There was no PROOF of wrong-doing.

- Johnny Manziel (Texas A&M). Lawyered up. Nobody talked. Nobody is busted (yet). Nobody is declared ineligible (yet). There is no PROOF of wrong-doing (yet).

Cases 3-5:
- Cam Newton (MSU). No lawyer. We report to the SEC and NCAA. PROOF that we got approached (because we talked). We get blamed for everything (which may be karma). Mullen gets blamed for squealing (even though he didn't do shit).

- Will Redmond (MSU). No lawyer. We report everything. PROOF that we did things (because we talked, and ONLY because of this). Internet sites fight amongst themselves for hits and money. Ding, ding, probation.

- A.J. Green (Georgia). No lawyer. He fesses up to the NCAA. Suspended 4 games.

OK.....isn't it easy to see what's going on here? DON'T F*CKING TALK! It's really quite simple. You can't stop these idiot shitballs from squealing on you like this broker, Kenny Rogers, Devinner. Those guys are being paid by butthurt Ole Miss, Alabama, Texas, etc. That much is proven because there are many others out there who are just as guilty as Newton/Manziel/etc. but never get reported. Is it just coincidence that the 2 biggest names get outed right as they are the biggest thorns in Alabama's side? Shit no. Bunch of damn rats.

Either way, that's what I take from the Johnny Football stuff. Don't leave proof. The NCAA can't regulate this stuff unless you let them. It's insane to think otherwise. If I want to give a recruit some money, and they want to take it, NO ONE CAN STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING. No one. So whatever happens, you just don't talk. Period. Amazing that people haven't learned this simple virtue.

[engie]

Yep...

All that is what we've been screaming from the rooftops since before the Redmond situation.

Hell, look at Renardo Sidney. I realize he didn't work out for us as a player -- but he got suspended for 1.5 years with NO proof of ANYTHING. They basically told him to "prove you are innocent"...Nowhere other than MSU does that happen.

If I was a student-athlete, the fact that the school itself will throw me UNDER THE BUS at first chance -- where other schools insulate and protect me -- would have a helluva lot to do with where I decided to go...

[bocfarm]

Worst compliance dept in the fbs

[Coach34]

Compliance starts with the President folks...Bracky does some shit he shouldnt and isnt the guy for the job these days- but Keenum is just as much to blame

[Goat Holder]

I also have to note, however, that it would be smart to not get involved with the street agents like Devinner and this 'broker' for JF. Especially not the coach.

Are you sure they never had proof in the Sidney incident? Lot of paper out there in California. I always thought Stans was stupid to mess with him from the beginning, and in hindsight I was right. He lost his job over him.

[Goat Holder]

I just said Fire Bracky because that's a popular party line. I completely agree that things need to be straightened up in many areas. Probably plenty of blame to go around. Even to the fans, as I pointed out the other day.

[Vandownbytheriver]

What Coach said. Bracky does his job the way he's instructed to do so. He's the easy fall guy because he's the guy with the title. If Keenum and Stricklin had a problem with the way shit is ran, they'd have made a change. I understand the frustration because everyone cheats and we suck at it, but this ain't all Bracky. He's just the popular guy to blame.

[ShotgunDawg]

I also have to note, however, that it would be smart to not get involved with the street agents like Devinner and this 'broker' for JF. Especially not the coach.

Are you sure they never had proof in the Sidney incident? Lot of paper out there in California. I always thought Stans was stupid to mess with him from the beginning, and in hindsight I was right. He lost his job over him.

Goat, if Devinner has 6 of the top 10 players in Tennessee playing for his 7 on 7 team, we don't have much choice but to be involved with him.

[The Croom Diaries]

The 'Fire Bracky' argument is all about the fact that he is under-qualified. He is simply in over his head and that's not necessarily his fault - so by us calling to Fire Bracky we are calling on Keenum to hire a lawyer, former NCAA investigator, whatever just get it done!

Keenum either has one of two problems: 1. he believes that if you hand over all the evidence to the NCAA then your punishment won't be as bad or 2. he believes that we should not worry about anyone else but MSU and we should make sure we are following all the rules.

Under #1 I think he could change his thinking just like in this Texas A&M case and others he sees how other schools are defending themselves. Of course, there is a problem, like Engie said, the NCAA does NOT need proof to punish you. People have a problem of looking at them like the government which they are not, they are just an organization. BUT - even though they need proof they also don't want to mix it up with a bunch of high profile lawyers who may sue them if they screw up and they are on pins and needles about screwing up with the schools that have lawyered up.

Under #2 we might as well get another president because he isn't going to change. The NCAA is like a game of Monopoly. There are the rules written on the pamphlet in the box, and then there are the rules you play by. Some people collect rent on their houses and hotels while they are in jail, some do not. In the SEC programs are collecting that rent while in jail but we are not even though we know everyone else is, putting us at a distinct disadvantage.

People act like the NCAA is the law created by the federal government. It is not. It is just some rules made by an organization. Like with any organization when the members don't like the rules they either change them or go somewhere else. My hope is that college football will secede from the NCAA and maybe we won't have to worry about Bracky so much. But that probably won't happen for a few years.

[Vandownbytheriver]

So in other words, you want the guy to lose his job because he's doing what his boss tells him to do? Why not fire the boss?

[Goat Holder]

Because I like Keenum.

[Goat Holder]

Of course, there is a problem, like Engie said, the NCAA does NOT need proof to punish you.

I disagree with this, and that was sort of the premise of my post in general.

The Sidney situation......eh, I'm not sure what to think of that. None of us know for sure, but I'm guessing there was some damning evidence out there. When cash hits the bank account, it raises eyebrows. Plus, this all happened before he came to MSU, so it wasn't really our problem until Stans made it our problem.

But I agree with everything else. NCAA can't punish anyone, they can just take away your 'eligibility'. But they don't typically do it without proof. Plus, like you say, they don't want to f*ck with lawyers.

[bocfarm]

They have to have proof

[Majors42]

The point that I think needs to be made is that Keenum sees no need to go out and hire a law firm or ex NCAA employee because he sees no reason to Chnage what we are doing. This is because his directive is to not cheat at any level. If we are not cheating, there is no need for a change in compliance. If you want that change, it's not on bracky, it's on Keenum like some other people have stated.

As for bracky, I will say this. On Chris jones official visit bracky followed him everywhere, including the men's room. He stood behind Chris while Chris was at the urinal and followed him everywhere else he went. Was that at keenums directive or was that bracky?

At ole miss the cruits get escorted around by hot co eds. At msu, they get escorted by middle aged white men. Where would you want to go?

[bocfarm]

The point that I think needs to be made is that Keenum sees no need to go out and hire a law firm or ex NCAA employee because he sees no reason to Chnage what we are doing. This is because his directive is to not cheat at any level. If we are not cheating, there is no need for a change in compliance. If you want that change, it's not on bracky, it's on Keenum like some other people have stated.

As for bracky, I will say this. On Chris jones official visit bracky followed him everywhere, including the men's room. He stood behind Chris while Chris was at the urinal and followed him everywhere else he went. Was that at keenums directive or was that bracky?

At ole miss the cruits get escorted around by hot co eds. At msu, they get escorted by middle aged white men. Where would you want to go?

Are you sure that wasn't Yancy dressed up like Bracky?

[bocfarm]

On a serious not, that is just plain sad and embarrassing if true. Good Lord

[engie]

The point that I think needs to be made is that Keenum sees no need to go out and hire a law firm or ex NCAA employee because he sees no reason to Chnage what we are doing. This is because his directive is to not cheat at any level. If we are not cheating, there is no need for a change in compliance. If you want that change, it's not on bracky, it's on Keenum like some other people have stated.

As for bracky, I will say this. On Chris jones official visit bracky followed him everywhere, including the men's room. He stood behind Chris while Chris was at the urinal and followed him everywhere else he went. Was that at keenums directive or was that bracky?

At ole miss the cruits get escorted around by hot co eds. At msu, they get escorted by middle aged white men. Where would you want to go?

Yep...

We've got to force Keenum's hand -- and fanbase outrage will eventually reach the right people and do that...

EVERYONE sees the problems, especially the ones that were smart enough to put themselves into self-made positions of power...

[engie]

They have to have proof

To do what? The NCAA doesn't have to have proof of anything to punish you. They can declare you ineligible and make you PROVE your innocence. Ever attempted that? It's basically impossible. It's the threat of lawsuits from HIGH PROFILE LAWYERS RUNNING OTHER PEOPLE'S COMPLIANCE DEPTS that prevents them from acting in advance like that more often.

What proof did they have on Kristers Zeidaks when they gave him the exact same suspension that Sidney got? Nothing. Just suspicions.

Bottom line is that they screw us because we ALLOW them to screw us -- moreover, we WELCOME it at the administration level.

[fishwater99]

The 'Fire Bracky' argument is all about the fact that he is under-qualified. He is simply in over his head and that's not necessarily his fault - so by us calling to Fire Bracky we are calling on Keenum to hire a lawyer, former NCAA investigator, whatever just get it done!


This...

They guy has a Master's in PE for god's sake...

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/bracky-brett/54/517/b63

[Coach34]

Keenum cant be this naive considering the company he keeps

The main point here is that we as a University have to pull together to operate as one- like an OM, Bama, Auburn, etc....that is where we lag behind imo

[MSUDawg4Life]

Yep...

All that is what we've been screaming from the rooftops since before the Redmond situation.

Hell, look at Renardo Sidney. I realize he didn't work out for us as a player -- but he got suspended for 1.5 years with NO proof of ANYTHING. They basically told him to "prove you are innocent"...Nowhere other than MSU does that happen.

If I was a student-athlete, the fact that the school itself will throw me UNDER THE BUS at first chance -- where other schools insulate and protect me -- would have a helluva lot to do with where I decided to go...

Wouldn't the Renardo Sidney situation disprove y'alls argument? Sidney lawyered up, still got suspended and y'all still blame Bracky. Apparently lawyering up isn't the magic pill that many think it is and Bracky is going to be blamed by the bandwagoners no matter what the truth of the matter is.

[FlabLoser]

The RSS family hired their own lawyer to protect RSS. This guy couldn't speak or argue on behalf of MSU.

MSU never did shit. May have had university lawyers. But the results speak for themselves. Bracky is in over his head. He gets steamrolled at every confrontation with the NCAA.

[Political Hack]

They have to have proof

no they don't. there were multiple inaccurate "findings" in the final report on Redmond.

[Jacksondevildog]

What I don't understand about the whole Bracky Brett situation is we have changed our entire image as a university. Our athletic department has made large strides in changing gameday atmosphere, creative marketing and stadium improvements, while our coaching staffs have the university pulling in the same direction, believing that they can compete. Its a new MSU mentality.

Then they have Bracky Brett which symbolizes old MSU. This is like purchasing a $15 million Los Angeles mansion and parking a datsun pickup truck in the driveway. It doesn't fit with what the athletic department is trying to portray. This falls on the heads of Stricklin and Keenum. We are already thought of as Mayberry on the national scene. We damn sure don't need Goober running things.

[bocfarm]

no they don't. there were multiple inaccurate "findings" in the final report on Redmond.

Impermissible benefits

Name a time they've deemed someone ineligible without proof?

[maroonmania]

What Coach said. Bracky does his job the way he's instructed to do so. He's the easy fall guy because he's the guy with the title. If Keenum and Stricklin had a problem with the way shit is ran, they'd have made a change. I understand the frustration because everyone cheats and we suck at it, but this ain't all Bracky. He's just the popular guy to blame.

No, Bracky is doing his business the way he's always done it through MANY presidents and ADs which is the only way he knows how to do it. Compliance is a very small part of what Keenum's attention is on so maybe he doesn't realize how big a problem we have in this area or how far behind the times we are. I really don't know on that but what I do know is that Bracky is just NOT QUALIFIED to do the compliance job in today's environment, period! We need somebody in there that truly understands how you deal with the NCAA without just letting them piss all over you which is essentially what we do now.

[Political Hack]

Impermissible benefits

Name a time they've deemed someone ineligible without proof?

I can name a time when they suspended someone for much longer than they otherwise should have over inaccurate findings... based on the words of someone who looks to be on his way to being a convict.

[blacklistedbully]

....well, at least for interwebs purposes. And I'm more convinced that MSU has the most fractured, and selfish, fanbase in the country.

This is how it is. I don't know what's truth and what's not. All I know is this:

Cases 1-2:
- Cam Newton (Auburn). Lawyered up. Nobody talked. Nobody got busted. Nobody got declared ineligible (at least for more than an hour). There was no PROOF of wrong-doing.

- Johnny Manziel (Texas A&M). Lawyered up. Nobody talked. Nobody is busted (yet). Nobody is declared ineligible (yet). There is no PROOF of wrong-doing (yet).

Cases 3-5:
- Cam Newton (MSU). No lawyer. We report to the SEC and NCAA. PROOF that we got approached (because we talked). We get blamed for everything (which may be karma). Mullen gets blamed for squealing (even though he didn't do shit).

- Will Redmond (MSU). No lawyer. We report everything. PROOF that we did things (because we talked, and ONLY because of this). Internet sites fight amongst themselves for hits and money. Ding, ding, probation.

- A.J. Green (Georgia). No lawyer. He fesses up to the NCAA. Suspended 4 games.

OK.....isn't it easy to see what's going on here? DON'T F*CKING TALK! It's really quite simple. You can't stop these idiot shitballs from squealing on you like this broker, Kenny Rogers, Devinner. Those guys are being paid by butthurt Ole Miss, Alabama, Texas, etc. That much is proven because there are many others out there who are just as guilty as Newton/Manziel/etc. but never get reported. Is it just coincidence that the 2 biggest names get outed right as they are the biggest thorns in Alabama's side? Shit no. Bunch of damn rats.

Either way, that's what I take from the Johnny Football stuff. Don't leave proof. The NCAA can't regulate this stuff unless you let them. It's insane to think otherwise. If I want to give a recruit some money, and they want to take it, NO ONE CAN STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING. No one. So whatever happens, you just don't talk. Period. Amazing that people haven't learned this simple virtue.

You left out the USCw case. Looks like they got burned especially bad because they tried to deny & fight it. With BDV in Ole Miss's back pocket, shooting his mouth off to whoever, and a rogue booster intent on talking too much, it seems to me things could have been a lot worse had we tried to deny, etc.

Yes, if you don't self-report and/or admit, and IF you can keep them from getting proof, THEN you can get away with it. But it's high-risk/high reward stuff. If you get caught taking that approach, your goose is cooked. Do you really think we'd be capable of pulling that off if Bracky weren't there cooperating? You'd better be damned confident, because our history would suggest we rarely come out on the good end of these kinds of things.

[Barking 13]

I can name a time when they suspended someone for much longer than they otherwise should have over inaccurate findings... based on the words of someone who looks to be on his way to being a convict.

My name is Barking 13 and I approve of THIS message... ;)

[Vandownbytheriver]

If Keenum doesn't know we are that far behind then he's failing to do his job as well. There is a lot of blame to go around here and it seems to all be focused on Bracky. I don't like the way compliance is being ran, some of the stuff we do with marketing, "this space for rent" on the JumboTron, and a few other things, but I don't think it's all one guys fault. It's a system of being behind the times on several things and a give me your money and the hell with loyalty on others.

[The Croom Diaries]

No, Bracky is doing his business the way he's always done it through MANY presidents and ADs which is the only way he knows how to do it. Compliance is a very small part of what Keenum's attention is on so maybe he doesn't realize how big a problem we have in this area or how far behind the times we are.

Excellent point. Bracky is the main problem, but Keenum allowing him to stand his post is also a major problem. We just have to raise enough cain so the prez will see the light. But if the rumors of Keenum making sure the investigation were handled a certain way are true, then it is very concerning going forward. And the unnecessary praise of MSU compliance after the investigation by Stricklin leads me to believe he may be in la la land as well.

[engie]

Yes, if you don't self-report and/or admit, and IF you can keep them from getting proof, THEN you can get away with it. But it's high-risk/high reward stuff. If you get caught taking that approach, your goose is cooked. Do you really think we'd be capable of pulling that off if Bracky weren't there cooperating? You'd better be damned confident, because our history would suggest we rarely come out on the good end of these kinds of things.

We've always been compliance idiots for our history. And the NCAA of the 1990s /=/ the NCAA of today.

Yes, I think with a COMPETENT compliance department, we would have SKATED 100% on Redmond -- and he'd be fighting for a starting spot right now and may have played last year.

Really simple. "Hey Will -- the NCAA called asking questions. Your 7 on 7 coach is telling them some things that are concerning. Here's a lawyer you can call -- He's an MSU alum and will help you through this process(on MSU retainer aka for free, no less). They are wanting to visit with you on X,Y,Z day -- when you should be prepared to answer X,Y,Z questions." Will goes into that meeting FULLY prepared -- WITH a lawyer -- doesn't incriminate himself in any way -- and the NCAA walks away empty handed.

Instead, we send him in blind with no clue... Until this is fixed, WE DO NOT DESERVE TO BE ABLE TO RECRUIT ELITE OOS PLAYERS.

[The Croom Diaries]

So in other words, you want the guy to lose his job because he's doing what his boss tells him to do? Why not fire the boss?

It's like this: if every corporation selling widgets requires their _____ position to hold a college degree but corporation X has someone in that position with only a high school degree, then they don't have the same quality of employee the other companies do. Do you fire the supervisor or do you fire that employee and hire someone with a college degree?

[Vandownbytheriver]

It's like this: if every corporation selling widgets requires their _____ position to hold a college degree but corporation X has someone in that position with only a high school degree, then they don't have the same quality of employee the other companies do. Do you fire the supervisor or do you fire that employee and hire someone with a college degree?

I agree with that 100%, but eventually said widget company sees a pattern that starts at the top. I think the entire compliance department is subpar and it needs a top down makeover. You can love the university and still cause it harm.

[Goat Holder]

I agree with this. Lawyering up is just part of the equation. The main part, the part that counts, is the proof. And most of the time there isn't much unless either there's a paper trail (Sidney) or a recruit tells the whole truth (Redmond, Green).

I disagree with the notion that the NCAA punishes without proof. That's homerism. They had proof in the Redmond situation and they had proof during Jackie's scandal.

[The Croom Diaries]

They have to have proof

You keep telling yourself that.

Are detectives on the case? Does a judge determine if the evidence is fair? Can the defense challenge the prosecution? The NCAA is not a court of law, quit thinking like it is. It's an organization with a set of rules and they try to enforce the rules without any real ability to find out the full truth, so they have to make some assumptions.

[The Croom Diaries]

I agree with this. Lawyering up is just part of the equation. The main part, the part that counts, is the proof. And most of the time there isn't much unless either there's a paper trail (Sidney) or a recruit tells the whole truth (Redmond, Green).

I disagree with the notion that the NCAA punishes without proof. That's homerism. They had proof in the Redmond situation and they had proof during Jackie's scandal.

Proof because we handed them proof. What did they have before we hand-delivered the evidence? Testimony from a half-wit 7 on 7 coach who couldn't keep his story straight? They would have never seen any of the "proof" but we still would have gotten in trouble because they don't need proof. And a person's testimony is not proof, especially when that person is not credible.

We got screwed because supposedly one of our own told D'Vinner all about it, then D'Vinner went to OM. But from there Bracky screwed the whole thing up by not advising Redmond and providing him with counsel. And on top of that he gave everything to the NCAA on a silver platter including the idiotic appraisal of his car for $2,000 more than he paid for it instead of finding someone who would have said he got a $50 discount. We had a breakdown in our own ranks and then Bracky took a machine gun to the whole platoon.

[bocfarm]

You keep telling yourself that.

Are detectives on the case? Does a judge determine if the evidence is fair? Can the defense challenge the prosecution? The NCAA is not a court of law, quit thinking like it is. It's an organization with a set of rules and they try to enforce the rules without any real ability to find out the full truth, so they have to make some assumptions.

Ok, name a time the ncaa hasn't had proof or confession (Redmond) and they've hammered a school or suspended a player?

[FlabLoser]

Ok, name a time the ncaa hasn't had proof or confession (Redmond) and they've hammered a school or suspended a player?

Sidney

[bocfarm]

Proof because we handed them proof. What did they have before we hand-delivered the evidence? Testimony from a half-wit 7 on 7 coach who couldn't keep his story straight? They would have never seen any of the "proof" but we still would have gotten in trouble because they don't need proof. And a person's testimony is not proof, especially when that person is not credible.

We got screwed because supposedly one of our own told D'Vinner all about it, then D'Vinner went to OM. But from there Bracky screwed the whole thing up by not advising Redmond and providing him with counsel. And on top of that he gave everything to the NCAA on a silver platter including the idiotic appraisal of his car for $2,000 more than he paid for it instead of finding someone who would have said he got a $50 discount. We had a breakdown in our own ranks and then Bracky took a machine gun to the whole platoon.

Your contradicting yourself, you say they don't need proof but you then say Redmond confessed to them, which btw is the same thing.

I totally agree there is a breakdown internally and all of this could of been avoided but I disagree the ncaa can invoke penalties without proof...that has never happened.

[bocfarm]

Sidney

Wrong

[Goat Holder]

Proof because we handed them proof. What did they have before we hand-delivered the evidence? Testimony from a half-wit 7 on 7 coach who couldn't keep his story straight? They would have never seen any of the "proof" but we still would have gotten in trouble because they don't need proof. And a person's testimony is not proof, especially when that person is not credible.

We got screwed because supposedly one of our own told D'Vinner all about it, then D'Vinner went to OM. But from there Bracky screwed the whole thing up by not advising Redmond and providing him with counsel. And on top of that he gave everything to the NCAA on a silver platter including the idiotic appraisal of his car for $2,000 more than he paid for it instead of finding someone who would have said he got a $50 discount. We had a breakdown in our own ranks and then Bracky took a machine gun to the whole platoon.

GOOD LORD!

Do you not even read posts before responding? Redmond talking is what got us busted. They had no real proof, just like Manziel and Newton. How are not getting this from my posts?

[Goat Holder]

No way they didn't have proof in the Sidney situation. Come on, now.

[The Croom Diaries]

Ok, name a time the ncaa hasn't had proof or confession (Redmond) and they've hammered a school or suspended a player?

If what you're saying is correct, that the NCAA 100% needs actual proof of a violation before they can punish someone, then why would anyone turn themselves in for anything? The NCAA has no power - their only hope would be if there was a criminal investigation and the evidence turned up there or a rival school had the damning evidence in hand. Otherwise, all you have to do is lock the doors and burn the evidence and you are free and clear.

The NCAA can punish you for simply not cooperating with their investigation. Therefore, they don't need proof. If they have a testimony from someone that says they paid ___ player ___ amount of money, then you won't cooperate with their investigation they will assume guilt and punish you....without the proof.

If you believe this is not the case, then please let us in on why exactly anyone anywhere turns in anything to the NCAA.

[bulldogcountry1]

Over the last 20 years, we have been punished harshly for the violations we have "allegedly" committed, from Jackie to Fant to Redmond. Can anyone think of a single case where we came out smelling like a rose against the NCAA? Over that time, there has been only one common denominator - Bracky. You can blame presidents and ADs for not recognizing the need for a change, but that's about it. Keenum needs to wake up and realize that it's a different ballgame out there, and the game has passed Bracky, just like it can pass a coach. He might be the most moral, honest, and hard-working guy on the planet, for all I know, but he just doesn't have the knowledge or credentials to stand up for the university as effectively as we need that position to. Just because you do a good job doesn't mean someone else can't do it 10x better.

[The Croom Diaries]

Your contradicting yourself, you say they don't need proof but you then say Redmond confessed to them, which btw is the same thing.

I totally agree there is a breakdown internally and all of this could of been avoided but I disagree the ncaa can invoke penalties without proof...that has never happened.

I did not say Redmond confessed to anything. By one of our own I mean a fan.

Please explain what type of proof the NCAA would have had if we had not given any of it to them. Because, if they need proof, then essentially we could have just sat quietly and everything would be fine right? Why did we report violations, out of the good of our heart?

[FlabLoser]

No way they didn't have proof in the Sidney situation. Come on, now.

Any proof they found wasn't published in the "findings".

They wanted RSS to show bank records so they would have their proof. But RSS never opened the bank records.

[fishwater99]

Excellent point. Bracky is the main problem, but Keenum allowing him to stand his post is also a major problem. We just have to raise enough cain so the prez will see the light. But if the rumors of Keenum making sure the investigation were handled a certain way are true, then it is very concerning going forward. And the unnecessary praise of MSU compliance after the investigation by Stricklin leads me to believe he may be in la la land as well.

Our problem is Keenum and Stricklin really want to run a clean program and they think Brack is the man for the job.
They don't want to cheat and if we do, they want to tell the NCAA to keep our penalties to a minimum.
Other schools will always be ahead of us because of this...

[The Croom Diaries]

GOOD LORD!

Do you not even read posts before responding? Redmond talking is what got us busted. They had no real proof, just like Manziel and Newton. How are not getting this from my posts?

Why did Redmond even talk to the NCAA then? Under your theory, the NCAA needs proof to punish someone, so if Redmond telling the truth is the proof in this case then why didn't he just refuse to talk to the NCAA? After all, they have no subpoena power as well all know. So how would they have gotten the proof if he just refused?

Or is it that the NCAA can punish you without proof because you aren't cooperating with their investigation?

But perhaps if you surround the entire case with lawyers who are starring the NCAA down at every turn making sure everything is prepared exactly as it needs to be and the NCAA is nervous about making one wrong move knowing that if they infringe on any type of laws they will be sued at the drop of a hat, well then they aren't likely to dig too deep, and you were in full cooperation the whole time.

[bocfarm]

I did not say Redmond confessed to anything. By one of our own I mean a fan.

Please explain what type of proof the NCAA would have had if we had not given any of it to them. Because, if they need proof, then essentially we could have just sat quietly and everything would be fine right? Why did we report violations, out of the good of our heart?

I was under the impression, they hot boxed Redmond and he told them he did indeed recieve said benefits. I could be mistaken.

[The Croom Diaries]

I was under the impression, they hot boxed Redmond and he told them he did indeed recieve said benefits. I could be mistaken.

That was in the investigation. I'm talking about how the NCAA ever even came to know about this whole thing.

[engie]

Ok, name a time the ncaa hasn't had proof or confession (Redmond) and they've hammered a school or suspended a player?

Zeidaks

[Goat Holder]

Why did Redmond even talk to the NCAA then? Under your theory, the NCAA needs proof to punish someone, so if Redmond telling the truth is the proof in this case then why didn't he just refuse to talk to the NCAA? After all, they have no subpoena power as well all know. So how would they have gotten the proof if he just refused?

Or is it that the NCAA can punish you without proof because you aren't cooperating with their investigation?

But perhaps if you surround the entire case with lawyers who are starring the NCAA down at every turn making sure everything is prepared exactly as it needs to be and the NCAA is nervous about making one wrong move knowing that if they infringe on any type of laws they will be sued at the drop of a hat, well then they aren't likely to dig too deep, and you were in full cooperation the whole time.

Look, guy. What are you trying to prove? I agree with you. You just need to get the story aligned with mine.

Why did Redmond talk? Because he was scared! He's an 18 year old kid getting questioned by the NCAA! And from all accounts, Bracky just told him to show up, didn't tell him he could have a lawyer, and actually helped grill the poor kid in front of the investigator. He was put on the spot. Probably speaks to Redmond's character that he didn't lie, honestly.

[The Croom Diaries]

Look, guy. What are you trying to prove? I agree with you. You just need to get the story aligned with mine.

Why did Redmond talk? Because he was scared! He's an 18 year old kid getting questioned by the NCAA! And from all accounts, Bracky just told him to show up, didn't tell him he could have a lawyer, and actually helped grill the poor kid in front of the investigator. He was put on the spot. Probably speaks to Redmond's character that he didn't lie, honestly.

You were trying to say the NCAA needs proof. I am saying they don't need proof. That is what I'm trying to prove. And I think Engie and Flab have agreed with that, just haven't been as long-winded.

[bocfarm]

If the ncaa gets in inquiry from someone or multiple parties along with doing some digging on their own then they typically come around asking questions, if nothing turns up and the parties involved all deny accusations then, yea not much they can do.

That's my point, in Cam Newton, Manziel, CJ and God knows how many others, no one said a damn thing therefore they had no "proof" of infractions.. hence no punishment.

[bocfarm]

Zeidaks

Explain

[Goat Holder]

You were trying to say the NCAA needs proof. I am saying they don't need proof. That is what I'm trying to prove. And I think Engie and Flab have agreed with that, just haven't been as long-winded.

And I still say they do. They had verbal proof from the offender with Green and Redmond. And with Newton, although we didn't violate anything there. Auburn got nothing, Manziel is going to get nothing, because there's no proof.

It seems Sidney and Zeidaks are the two cases used here to prove the NCAA needs no proof. With Sidney, apparently he didn't give over his accounts. Sounds like the proof was in those bank statements. With Zeidaks, didn't he physically play in a pro league or something? Sounds like proof to me.

When they've got you nailed in the water, obviously you come clean. Sidney case could be debated, but sounds to me like they had him pegged.

[The Croom Diaries]

Goat and BocFarm - the point of my argument is that the NCAA doesn't need proof because if you have enough suspicions and you don't cooperate they can punish you for not cooperating, see: Sidney. Auburn and others have cooperated but they've had lawyers and other informed people involved that have made sure all their dealings with the NCAA have been well thought-out and they've stood up to the NCAA making them afraid to screw up. They haven't just straight up given the NCAA all the evidence, they have made them find it on their own...so they don't find any proof. If you cooperate then yes they need proof, but if they don't they they will just hammer you under the assumption that you cheated, otherwise there would be no incentive for anyone to cooperate with their investigations.

[bocfarm]

I think we can all agree that if you're compliance dept is dumb enough to bring up a possible infraction (Zeidaks, ect) and then confirms said infraction to the ncaa, that would be considered "proof"

Bracky to ncaa- I think this guy may have played in a pro league, gotten paid overseas, ect

Ncaa to Bracky- Ok, can you look into that for us and provide details?

Bracky to ncaa- I'd love to, and turns out yes he did play and recieved imperssible benefits according to rule A-G13156 so we're going to suspend him for a year and half...will that work for you guys?

Ncaa- Bracky, thanks we were going to say 5 game suspension but since you think a year and a half is more fitting we'll go with that. Look forward to speaking with you again soon.

[engie]

Explain

Got the EXACT same punishment as Sidney and was never proven of ANY wrongdoing. All over suspicions of him playing against professionals in his home country...

Simple fact is this too -- The NCAA NEVER finds the Sidney stuff and NEVER touches the Redmond stuff if we don't help them throughout the process. Both had, what I think, was $2k-2500 worth of total impermissible benefits after their past was dug into.

EVERYONE gets more than that in actual "impermissible" benefits over 3-4 years... including every single baseball team and player in the SEC(just to show how relative it all is).

[engie]

I think we can all agree that if you're compliance dept is dumb enough to bring up a possible infraction (Zeidaks, ect) and then confirms said infraction to the ncaa, that would be considered "proof"

Bracky to ncaa- I think this guy may have played in a pro league, gotten paid overseas, ect

Ncaa to Bracky- Ok, can you look into that for us and provide details?

Bracky to ncaa- I'd love to, and turns out yes he did play and recieved imperssible benefits according to rule A-G13156 so we're going to suspend him for a year and half...will that work for you guys?

Ncaa- Bracky, thanks we were going to say 5 game suspension but since you think a year and a half is more fitting we'll go with that. Look forward to speaking with you again soon.

Exactly how it goes.

Bracky- "Wait, can I get your cell phone number? What if I catch one of our guys eating free food in the junction? I need to be able to self report that immediately!"

[blacklistedbully]

We've always been compliance idiots for our history. And the NCAA of the 1990s /=/ the NCAA of today.

Yes, I think with a COMPETENT compliance department, we would have SKATED 100% on Redmond -- and he'd be fighting for a starting spot right now and may have played last year.

Really simple. "Hey Will -- the NCAA called asking questions. Your 7 on 7 coach is telling them some things that are concerning. Here's a lawyer you can call -- He's an MSU alum and will help you through this process(on MSU retainer aka for free, no less). They are wanting to visit with you on X,Y,Z day -- when you should be prepared to answer X,Y,Z questions." Will goes into that meeting FULLY prepared -- WITH a lawyer -- doesn't incriminate himself in any way -- and the NCAA walks away empty handed.

Instead, we send him in blind with no clue... Until this is fixed, WE DO NOT DESERVE TO BE ABLE TO RECRUIT ELITE OOS PLAYERS.

Do you think USCw didn't have a bevy of top-notch lawyers in their corner? Again, it CAN work, but it can also backfire in a big way. And we're the kind of program the NCAA seems to love to use to "prove" they aren't afraid to bust an SEC program, so they can then look the other way at Auburn, etc.

[engie]

Do you think USCw didn't have a bevy of top-notch lawyers in their corner? Again, it CAN work, but it can also backfire in a big way. And we're the kind of program the NCAA seems to love to use to "prove" they aren't afraid to bust an SEC program, so they can then look the other way at Auburn, etc.

You couldn't possibly make a comparison that is ANY more apples to oranges. Do you really think USCw's penalty was severe because they fought the penalties -- and not because of what actually happened? The point of the lawyers are not to beat it and talk down the penalties after you are caught. It's to prevent you from incriminating YOURSELF(and "taking care" of those that CAN incriminate you) in the first place when the first allegations come down the pipeline.

USCw was up against a butt hurt NFL agent on the record saying(and proving) that Reggie Bush's parents had stayed in his house for free and that he'd given him money and cars -- and a former best friend of OJ Mayo giving first hand accounts of rampant payments through an agent. That was an open/shut case when the first-hand accounts rolled on USC.

No one here is promoting "fighting" the NCAA. What we're promoting is not biting off our own arms and making their job easy for them -- just doing everything in our power to stay out of trouble -- instead of everything in our power to discourage all forms of "illegal benefits". It's a fundamental difference that EVERYONE else has already addressed...