If it's Paul Rhoads, what is the board's thoughts

[gtowndawg]

From what I've read, that's definitely who it sounds like it's going to be. Apparently Mullen interviewed the Texans coach (John Butler) yesterday "just to be sure."

He seems like an ok coach and an ok recruiter, but "ok" doesn't help in the current environment. Hope he proves me wrong if we go in this direction.

[Saltydog]

nt

[AROB44]

I am sure this board will go into complete meltdown no matter who it is. Mullen can not do anything right anymore. Time to get fresh meat in...

[ScoobaDawg]

Meh.... maybe he's not a name I'm that familiar with. But it's not a home run by any means to me.

[ShotgunDawg]

I think it's a good hire. Successful DC in the past in the SEC & has been head coach, that pulled some upsets. So he knows how to gameplan against superior opponents.

I just don't how any of us on here have enough information about how good someone will be as a DC. Mullen has a much better track record of hiring new coaches at MSU than the coaches he brought with him when he got the job.

I trust Mullen in these searches. Many posters just want the guy that they know the best or has had the most recent DC success. Paul Rhodes became a head coach for a reason. He's like Ellis Johnson

[msugolf]

It would be the perfect recipe for creating the traditional MState apathy. He's never done anything as a D coordinator to stand out and what little success he had at Pitt was before the evolution of the spread offenses. But hey, maybe we're trying to take this "developmental program" approach to our coaching staff as well.

[ShotgunDawg]

Meh.... maybe he's not a name I'm that familiar with. But it's not a home run by any means to me.

What would be a HR hire?

All of these guys have flaws. Rhodes resume is far better than Allen's

[ElitedawgRecruiting]

A lot better hire then most of our fans will give credit for

[HoopsDawg]

Just extremely underwhelming. Other than 1 year at AU, he has spent the majority of his career at Iowa State and Pittsburgh.

[Eric Nies Grind Time]

So does this mean that footballscoop was right for once? :)

[HoopsDawg]

I think it's a good hire. Successful DC in the past in the SEC & has been head coach, that pulled some upsets. So he knows how to gameplan against superior opponents.

I just don't how any of us on here have enough information about how good someone will be as a DC. Mullen has a much better track record of hiring new coaches at MSU than the coaches he brought with him when he got the job.

I trust Mullen in these searches. Many posters just want the guy that they know the best or has had the most recent DC success. Paul Rhodes became a head coach for a reason. He's like Ellis Johnson

He was only DC at AU for 1 year. AU finished 5-7, lost 6 of their last 7, didn't make a bowl and their defense finished 27th in the country. Rhoades was 32-55 as a head coach.

[Coach34]

Turd of a hire

[Eric Nies Grind Time]

Generally Mullen's hires other than DC seem to be pretty good. He can't get a good DC to stay here though.

We seriously couldn't have at least hired Lance Thompson?

[confucius say]

Don't know a lot about him so I'll reserve judgment until I see the product he puts out there.

[mparkerfd20]

Would be Mullen's worst hire to date in my opinion.

[Political Hack]

If nothing else at least we'll have 17 DB coaches on the staff.

The only place he's ever been where he could recruit was Auburn but he only lasted 1 season because Chizik got canned. Got to trust CDM's judgement on this one. Hopefully we got a guy that won't bolt at the first glimmer of a green pasture. We need some stability at DC. According to wiki, he turned down Auburn before eventually going there a couple of years later. That's a positive sign.

[ckDOG]

Torbush 2.0

[Spiderman]

From what I've read, that's definitely who it sounds like it's going to be. Apparently Mullen interviewed the Texans coach (John Butler) yesterday "just to be sure."

He seems like an ok coach and an ok recruiter, but "ok" doesn't help in the current environment. Hope he proves me wrong if we go in this direction.

Fart noise......

[Big4Dawg]

If nothing else at least we'll have 17 DB coaches on the staff.

The only place he's ever been where he could recruit was Auburn but he only lasted 1 season because Chizik got canned. Got to trust CDM's judgement on this one. Hopefully we got a guy that won't bolt at the first glimmer of a green pasture. We need some stability at DC. According to wiki, he turned down Auburn before eventually going there a couple of years later. That's a positive sign.

No, he was there when Tommy Tuberville's last year. Chizik was HC at Iowa State. The pretty much flipped schools. Chizik to Auburn and Rhodes to Iowa State

[civildawg]

Torbush 2.0

Agree with this

[MaroonFlounder]

It doesn't really matter. He will only be here for a year, just like all the other DCs that can't seem to work with Mullen.

[Eric Nies Grind Time]

Whenever Beniquez Brown's career in the NFL ends Mullen should hire him. Guy has football IQ off the charts.

[Count]

I think you got to have confidence in Dan to make the best decision available. Dan will make the best hire within parameters of
who is available and competent. The program has been solid under Dan and no reason he cant keep it that way. Next year
schedule looks good some early wins and then we'll see

[Really Clark?]

He was only DC at AU for 1 year. AU finished 5-7, lost 6 of their last 7, didn't make a bowl and their defense finished 27th in the country. Rhoades was 32-55 as a head coach.

And his scoring defense was 14th in the country on a 5-7 turd of team. His defense wasn't why they were 5-7.

[Really Clark?]

If nothing else at least we'll have 17 DB coaches on the staff.

The only place he's ever been where he could recruit was Auburn but he only lasted 1 season because Chizik got canned. Got to trust CDM's judgement on this one. Hopefully we got a guy that won't bolt at the first glimmer of a green pasture. We need some stability at DC. According to wiki, he turned down Auburn before eventually going there a couple of years later. That's a positive sign.

nm

[HoopsDawg]

And his scoring defense was 14th in the country on a 5-7 turd of team. His defense wasn't why they were 5-7.

Yeah, definitely helped by the 2 points Croom put on them.

[defiantdog]

Whenever Beniquez Brown's career in the NFL ends Mullen should hire him. Guy has football IQ off the charts.

I think Chris White will be a hell of a coach. He was a genius at reading the offense. He was also a great coach on the field. Once he quits the NFL, he'll be one hell of a LB coach.

[Eric Nies Grind Time]

But the Iowa State defense's have been some of the worst in the country. I mean I know you don't get good talent at Iowa State...but I would hope they would be slightly better (assuming he is calling the defense).

[Really Clark?]

Yeah, definitely helped by the 2 points Croom put on them.

We don't discuss that game!

That defense was also tied for 3rd in the league and right at the same avg for conference only games. 18.6 per game. 3 conference losses holding teams to 17, 17, and 14. Georgia, UNM, and Vandy

[Ifyouonlyknew]

But the Iowa State defense's have been some of the worst in the country. I mean I know you don't get good talent at Iowa State...but I would hope they would be slightly better (assuming he is calling the defense).

Wally Burnham was the DC.

[TrapGame]

Craptastic, screw the pooch hire if it's true.

[defiantdog]

We don't discuss that game!

That defense was also tied for 3rd in the league and right at the same avg for conference only games. 18.6 per game. 3 conference losses holding teams to 17, 17, and 14. Georgia, UNM, and Vandy

There was a certain wide receiver coach on that 5-7 team that we grabbed. Why shouldn't we get the DC as well?

[Really Clark?]

But the Iowa State defense's have been some of the worst in the country. I mean I know you don't get good talent at Iowa State...but I would hope they would be slightly better (assuming he is calling the defense).

He wasn't calling the defenses, I'm pretty sure but their scoring went from 111th in the country prior to him to 33rd his first year. 74, 82, 38, 109, 118, 97. The last 3 years I think shows they peeked prior and he couldn't sustain. Not that I'm pushing Rhoads, he is not bad but not my first choice, but think about this when considering Iowa State, Urban Myer hired Rhoads OC, Tom Herman, after his 3 year stint as Iowa State's OC. His scoring offenses were 103rd, 97th, and 90th in the country. You have to adjust expections considerably when talking about Iowa State. It didn't make Herman a bad OC and Urban didn't get him because he was bad coach. He is a very good coach. I think Rhoads is better than people give him credit. Now who is going to coach LB's?

[dawggoneit]

I think he will be a good DC. Not the flashy hire a lot want but he'll be better than a couple names people a drooling over.

[tcdog70]

Just extremely underwhelming. Other than 1 year at AU, he has spent the majority of his career at Iowa State and Pittsburgh.

See to Me , signing a Coach that has Coached and had success at a similar Team as Us is the right thing. Signing a DC from a Bama or Ga or Fla. doesn't mean he can be good at MSU. But if he can succeed at Iowa St or Pitt then he can be Good with Us.

[mcain31]

Rhoads would be an excellent based on how his defenses performed.

[HoopsDawg]

See to Me , signing a Coach that has Coached and had success at a similar Team as Us is the right thing. Signing a DC from a Bama or Ga or Fla. doesn't mean he can be good at MSU. But if he can succeed at Iowa St or Pitt then he can be Good with Us.

Has he really had that much success?

[Johnson85]

Mullen has a much better track record of hiring new coaches at MSU than the coaches he brought with him when he got the job.

Torbush - Bad but defensible. It wasn't a bad idea to grab somebody with HC experience since Mullen was a new head coach, and probably not a lot of people banging down the door to get here with a new coach.
Manny - Pretty good hire. In hindsight he had a lot of talent to work with, but can't complain about the results.
Wilson - Pretty bad hire. Only defense is that Mullen probably made promises when he hired him about the ability to move up, but wasn't expecting Manny to leave so early. Also probably needed to get something set for recruiting.
Collins - Pretty good hire. Not great at in game adjustments but put a solid defense out there until he checked out at the end.
Manny - Ok hire. Our offense didn't kill us this year but it also wasn't great.

That list doesn't inspire a lot of confidence to me. On the plus side, Mullen's only real turd of a hire was Wilson. But there still a big problem with having to make so many hires. Manny left for a destination job and then left when Mullen was probably indifferent as to whether he stayed. Torbush and Wilson needed to go. Collins obviously didn't like working for Mullen. Chasing Collins off has been his biggest mistake. Every DC departure before that was needed or understandable. Each extra year with a good to pretty good DC is big, and we probably would have had Collins for another year if he didn't hate working for Dan. We are really hurting for some continuity at this point.

[JoseBrown]

Was told Collins said "I had to get out of there before I punched that mudderfudder in the face!" Haha

I just laughed at it, but he is a good coach..
Hope the next one has his drive and determination..but more success.

[MetEdDawg]

If we hire Rhoads, we have at best the second worst DC in the West. Don't think anyone can provide me with evidence that shows otherwise. Means we aren't doing what's necessary to be the best and I would be sorely disappointed that we couldn't do better and you guys should too.

Some of us will defend anything we do. Some of us will crush anything we do. I try to stay objective and objectivity tells me 1) That we SHOULD be able to do better than Rhoads and 2), if we couldn't do better than Rhoads, we are a lot further behind in a lot of ways than we should be right now going into year 8 after our most successful 2 years in program history.

[maroonmania]

I'm already prepared to be disappointed. I probably like Allen the best because he is an up and comer and apparently an excellent coach but is seemingly tied at the hip of Freeze. Not that we are necessarily getting info about everyone Mullen has talked to but I'm not sure why the pool beyond Allen is limited to Orgeron, Rhoads and Butler? There are a lot of good DC even outside the P5 schools that would jump at the chance to be a DC in the SEC.

[HoopsDawg]

If we hire Rhoads, we have at best the second worst DC in the West. Don't think anyone can provide me with evidence that shows otherwise. Means we aren't doing what's necessary to be the best and I would be sorely disappointed that we couldn't do better and you guys should too.

Some of us will defend anything we do. Some of us will crush anything we do. I try to stay objective and objectivity tells me 1) That we SHOULD be able to do better than Rhoads and 2), if we couldn't do better than Rhoads, we are a lot further behind in a lot of ways than we should be right now going into year 8 after our most successful 2 years in program history.

Agree with everything in this post. Having said that, I thought Wommack was going to be a bust at Ole Miss and he has done a great job.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

If we hire Rhoads, we have at best the second worst DC in the West. Don't think anyone can provide me with evidence that shows otherwise. Means we aren't doing what's necessary to be the best and I would be sorely disappointed that we couldn't do better and you guys should too.

Some of us will defend anything we do. Some of us will crush anything we do. I try to stay objective and objectivity tells me 1) That we SHOULD be able to do better than Rhoads and 2), if we couldn't do better than Rhoads, we are a lot further behind in a lot of ways than we should be right now going into year 8 after our most successful 2 years in program history.

What is your SEC West DC Rankings? Also who would you hire that would've put us in the top 3 DC in the West?

[ScottH]

What is your SEC West DC Rankings?

Having nothing to do with the thread but just for fun:
1. Aranda
2. Wommack
3. Pruitt
4. Chavis
Perceptionally a really big gap.
5. MSU
6. Steele

[msstate7]

Having nothing to do with the thread but just for fun:
1. Aranda
2. Wommack
3. Pruitt
4. Chavis
Perceptionally a really big gap.
5. MSU
6. Steele
We haven't hired a DC; but no matter who he is, he'll be much worse than your top 4.

[deltadawg99]

What type of scheme does Rhoads run?

Allen was my top guy due to the 4-2-5 scheme and his recruiting.

Rhoads has spent 1 year of his career in the south so that's a little concerning with relationships for recruiting.

[PendingTransaction]

Look Fellows, if Rhoads is the best guy Dan can get, we just have to be happy and wish for the best. Home run? I knew we would be lucky to get a dirty double.

[HSVDawg]

I don't really care if its Rhoads, Allen, or whoever else. The defense isn't going to change one iota in terms of scheme no matter who we hire. Just like it hasn't changed with any of the previous 4 coordinators. Figured most people would have realized that after 7 years of us running the same soft coverages and conservative blitz packages in spite of having 2 NFL corners in our 2-deep (which we've had 4 of the past 7 years).

[DownwardDawg]

I don't even worry about these things anymore. I'll give my thoughts about half way thru the season. No idea how he'll do at State.

[confucius say]

I don't even worry about these things anymore. I'll give my thoughts about half way thru the season. No idea how he'll do at State.

Damn objectivity and rational thought. Get out of here with that.

[Political Hack]

I don't really care if its Rhoads, Allen, or whoever else. The defense isn't going to change one iota in terms of scheme no matter who we hire. Just like it hasn't changed with any of the previous 4 coordinators. Figured most people would have realized that after 7 years of us running the same soft coverages and conservative blitz packages in spite of having 2 NFL corners in our 2-deep (which we've had 4 of the past 7 years).

Why do people say this? It changed this year significantly. We had our DBs play back every time we brought pressure. That's a Manny trait. We had never done that before. We always took away the underneath stuff on pressure plays under Collins. That's a fundamental philosophy change and I can tell you some of the guys didn't like it.

[Sacrifice]

I'm fine with Rhoads. I was reading his bio and he had some great defenses from 2000-2007 at Pittsburg, hell he was named the big east best DC in 06. At Auburn his defense fell to 27th nationally. Man I can't remember the last time we finished 27 nationally in total D. I know he sucked as a HC but that doesn't mean he's not a good DC. There's a bunch of great DC that didn't make great HCs.

[Bothrops]

I glanced at his resume and other than Auburn in 2010, I don't think he's spent much time in the south. That concerns me. Plus he's from Iowa, born not far from ISU and failed miserably as a hc there, albeit challenging place, to say the least.

A home run hire would have been Allen, no doubt. He was the motivation we needed on defense. Motivation and toughness has been absent, lately.

[AROB44]

Why do people say this? It changed this year significantly. We had our DBs play back every time we brought pressure. That's a Manny trait. We had never done that before. We always took away the underneath stuff on pressure plays under Collins. That's a fundamental philosophy change and I can tell you some of the guys didn't like it.

Just to take another shot at Mullen (which has become commonplace on this board). I will find it very amusing when we finally run off the best coach we have ever had just because we think the next one will be better. Be careful what you wish for....

[tcdog70]

Has he really had that much success?

h was named Big East's best DC in 06. And His one year at Auburn he did a good job--Held the Slytanic to 2 points. Plus he is a Yankee like Dan. Maybe he understands arrogant Yankees. Collins, Hud and Manny didn't seems to hit it off with Dan.

[msstate7]

h was named Big East's best DC in 06. And His one year at Auburn he did a good job--Held the Slytanic to 2 points. Plus he is a Yankee like Dan. Maybe he understands arrogant Yankees. Collins, Hud and Manny didn't seems to hit it off with Dan.

If he can stop woody, he's good enough for me haha

[tcdog70]

If we hire Rhoads, we have at best the second worst DC in the West. Don't think anyone can provide me with evidence that shows otherwise. Means we aren't doing what's necessary to be the best and I would be sorely disappointed that we couldn't do better and you guys should too.

Some of us will defend anything we do. Some of us will crush anything we do. I try to stay objective and objectivity tells me 1) That we SHOULD be able to do better than Rhoads and 2), if we couldn't do better than Rhoads, we are a lot further behind in a lot of ways than we should be right now going into year 8 after our most successful 2 years in program history.

Rhodes looks pretty good to Me. Why does he look worse than Manny or Collins?


In 2000, Rhoads was hired as the defensive coordinator for the Pittsburgh Panthers by Walt Harris. In his first season, Rhoads was credited with improving the team's defense to their best performance since 1980. In 2001, his defensive unit ranked among the nation's top 30 in five different categories at season's end. Additionally, Pitt finished with 38 quarterback sacks. In 2002, the Panthers defense ranked among the nation's top 25 in an impressive seven different categories. In 2004, Pitt ranked ninth nationally with 17 interceptions and Rhoads was kept on staff by new head coach Dave Wannstedt. That decision proved wise as by then end of the 2005 season, Pitt was ranked second nationally in pass defense (yielding just 152.82 yards per game) and sixth in pass efficiency defense with a 99.36 rating. In 2006, Sporting News named Rhoads the Big East's best defensive coordinator. In 2007, Rhoads' defense was among the nation's leaders in various categories, finishing fifth nationally in total defense (allowing just 297.7 yards per games) and third nationally in pass defense (allowing just 167.3 yards per game). While the team finished 5?7, they ended on a high note by holding then-#2 ranked rival West Virginia to a season-low nine points in a 13?9 victory in the Backyard Brawl, limiting the Mountaineers high-powered offense to 183 yards (292 yards below their average).

[MetEdDawg]

Just like how we look at recruits with the offers they receive, I place a high emphasis on the places you have been. Was a HC at one time. Ok that's fine, but he was terrible there. Don't care where he was. Good coaches can at least make bad schools average. He couldn't even do that. But he was a DC for Pitt for freaking 8 years, and one year at Auburn then got promoted, and I think anyone worth their salt as a college football fan would say that was an extreme reach for Iowa State to hire him.

We should be able to command a better name than that. We don't necessarily have to get a huge player, but a hire like Rhoads means there is a significant gap between us and the elite of the West. We are going to have to throw some big money around to get a big name. $900,000 to a million should do it. I would say Orgeron >>>> Rhoads and those of you who believe the scheme and playcalling won't change no matter who we bring in should be beating on Orgeron's door to get him here if that's true.

[engie]

still championing Randy Shannon

[HancockCountyDog]

Im just ready for a hire at this point. I can't be the only one that is ready for this position to be filled. So many other SEC programs have filled their DC spot so much faster than we have, Im just ready to know who it is, get him out recruiting and have him here for this weekend.

[HancockCountyDog]

still championing Randy Shannon

Is this a real option? If so, yes please.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

I think he will be a good DC. Not the flashy hire a lot want but he'll be better than a couple names people a drooling over.

I agree and from everything I've read from other boards, he seems to be a classy guy and will bring passion to the defense.

[engie]

Is this a real option? If so, yes please.

Non-playcaller at UF making $601k currently.

[HoopsDawg]

Non-playcaller at UF making $601k currently.

Wow, 600K to be a co-defensive coordinator. No state tax in FL either. That's a really tough pull.

[bulldawg28]

Non-playcaller at UF making $601k currently.

He's doing something Florida's defense looks nothing like what Collins ran at State

[maroonmania]

Just like how we look at recruits with the offers they receive, I place a high emphasis on the places you have been. Was a HC at one time. Ok that's fine, but he was terrible there. Don't care where he was. Good coaches can at least make bad schools average. He couldn't even do that. But he was a DC for Pitt for freaking 8 years, and one year at Auburn then got promoted, and I think anyone worth their salt as a college football fan would say that was an extreme reach for Iowa State to hire him.

We should be able to command a better name than that. We don't necessarily have to get a huge player, but a hire like Rhoads means there is a significant gap between us and the elite of the West. We are going to have to throw some big money around to get a big name. $900,000 to a million should do it. I would say Orgeron >>>> Rhoads and those of you who believe the scheme and playcalling won't change no matter who we bring in should be beating on Orgeron's door to get him here if that's true.

Well since we would be hiring him as a DC I would try not to hold his HC record against him too much. I would put more emphasis on how his defenses performed while he was an actual DC. Seen a lot of good coordinators that didn't handle things well as a HC.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Doesn't look like it will be Paul Rhoads.

[msstate7]

Doesn't look like it will be Paul Rhoads.

Who does it look like it will be?

[engie]

Wow, 600K to be a co-defensive coordinator. No state tax in FL either. That's a really tough pull.

We could pay him enough and promote him enough. But he could easily stay at UF -- seeing how Collins is probably really close to being a head guy somewhere...

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Who does it look like it will be?

Peter Sirmon

[Really Clark?]

Who does it look like it will be?

It's a new name, hasn't been mentioned on here

[Really Clark?]

Ha. There you go

[Mjoelner34]

Peter Sirmon

Makes sense. He is the LB coach at USCw and they just got the guy I wanted for DC and Pendergast was just LB coach for the 49ers so he'll probably be DC/LB at USCw..

[TrapGame]

Peter Sirmon?

That's outta left field. What happened to the Lance Thompson and Tom Allen kinda candidates?

Shit, soon we are gonna wind up with Grover from Sesame Street.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Peter Sirmon?

That's outta left field. What happened to the Lance Thompson and Tom Allen kinda candidates?

Shit, soon we are gonna wind up with Grover from Sesame Street.

Can you tell me anything that makes Lance Thompson a better candidate than Peter Sirmon?

[cheewgumm]

I'm just glad we're willing now to hire someone who has never been a DC.

[TrapGame]

Can you tell me anything that makes Lance Thompson a better candidate than Peter Sirmon?

He has ties with SEC area high schools already from his stint at AU. Sirmon is an Oregonite with one year as a GA with the Vols. He's a PAC12 guy.

ETA: But...I like him better than Rhoads at this juncture.

[Really Clark?]

He has ties with SEC area high schools already from his stint at AU. Sirmon is an Oregonite with one year as a GA with the Vols. He's a PAC12 guy.

ETA: But...I like him better than Rhoads at this juncture.

2 years with Vols. After just 1 GA year was promoted to LB coach

[maroonmania]

I guess we can shut down this thread now since Rhoads isn't getting the job.

[BankerDog]

For clarifcation, Thompson was never a candidate. He had made some calls last time but not this time. Also, we go hire a good recruiter (which many wanted) but now y'all have reserves about him because he hasn't had an DC experience? Kinda weird because Ed O and Thompson haven't either, other than a game or two. Also, Sirmon coached with Thompson at UT..

[maroonmania]

For clarifcation, Thompson was never a candidate. He had made some calls last time but not this time. Also, we go hire a good recruiter (which many wanted) but now y'all have reserves about him because he hasn't had an DC experience? Kinda weird because Ed O and Thompson haven't either, other than a game or two. Also, Sirmon coached with Thompson at UT..

Come on now, I never backed anyone in particular including O or Thompson but I can see why Sirmon would be considered a riskier hire. Thompson has been a position coach at an FBS school since 1999 and WAS DC at UCF for 3 years (04-06). O has been a HC and has been coaching DL at an FBS school since 1988. Sirmon was a GA as recently as 2010. Hard to compare the experience of Sirmon with either of the other 2 coaches. Now granted Sirmon's coaching career was more delayed by playing in the NFL for 7 years.

[engie]

Come on now, I never backed anyone in particular including O or Thompson but I can see why Sirmon would be considered a riskier hire. Thompson has been a position coach at an FBS school since 1999 and WAS DC at UCF for 3 years (04-06). O has been a HC and has been coaching DL at an FBS school since 1988. Sirmon was a GA as recently as 2010. Hard to compare the experience of Sirmon with either of the other 2 coaches. Now granted Sirmon's coaching career was more delayed by playing in the NFL for 7 years.

I still don't see how any of that makes him a riskier candidate than either of the other two. Never a DC vs never a DC vs DC a decade ago and not great at it....

[maroonmania]

I still don't see how any of that makes him a riskier candidate than either of the other two. Never a DC vs never a DC vs DC a decade ago and not great at it....

He's just been a college coach significantly less years than the other 2 which might make him seem riskier. Doesn't mean he won't end up being a very good DC for us just more of an unknown commodity at this stage. Apparently the other 2 aren't really DC material though are they would be by now, guess that's another way to look at it.

[I seen it dawg]

Ogre.....oh wait