Well we did better than than Michigan State.

[archdog]

Big 1G looks like crap.

[Liverpooldawg]

We might have won tha league. Everyone got a distorted view of the SEC West due to what happens in the bowls last year. This year may be a return to form for most. We will see about the Confederates. They have some key cogs missing.

[Jack Lambert]

We might have won tha league. Everyone got a distorted view of the SEC West due to what happens in the bowls last year. This year may be a return to form for most. We will see about the Confederates. They have some key cogs missing.

I am not calling an Ole Miss lose but OK State is no joke. They can get up and down the field. I wish they had a run game.

[Todd4State]

Big 1G looks like crap.

Last year was their glory year. The power five conferences are always going to be behind the SEC in football in general. The only teams that have a realistic shot at winning a NC are the SEC, USC, Texas, Florida State, Miami, Ohio State, Michigan, Clemson, and maybe Notre Dame if they start to recruit the South heavily.

[Todd4State]

We might have won tha league. Everyone got a distorted view of the SEC West due to what happens in the bowls last year. This year may be a return to form for most. We will see about the Confederates. They have some key cogs missing.

Well, it's the league we're in and why our profile has been raised. And why our "history" that you spout on and on about is irrelevant.

[Liverpooldawg]

Well, it's the league we're in and why our profile has been raised. And why our "history" that you spout on and on about is irrelevant.

And that post sums up why I can't ever take you seriously. Any program that forgets where it is coming from is doomed to failure. What raised our profile is that we have actually lifted ourself off the bottom of the best league in college football. THAT is due in large part to Dan Mullen. If you discount history then perhaps your idiotic views make since. Anyone that is ignorant of history can be redeemed. Those who intentionally ignore history can't. I don't normally resort to Hugh Freeze type nonsense but in this case the biblical language fits.

[GreenheadDawg]

Yeh you young whippersnapper, back in his day milk was only a nickel. Those were the days

[basedog]

History is never ever irrelevant. We still have a ways to go to be anything close to what Bama has, ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. This also applies to about 110 other teams as well. Things will never even out just like Kentucky in basketball as for as the SEC goes.

[engie]

Well, it's the league we're in and why our profile has been raised. And why our "history" that you spout on and on about is irrelevant.

I agree that we can't point to our history any more because of the permanent changes we've undergone financially.

Not necessarily pointing this at you Todd -- but just as a general statement -- actually expecting us win a football national title at MSU is identical in it's delusion to any Ole Miss BS we've heard over all the years we've been hearing it. I've been ALL about eraticating the "poor ole MSU" mindset. It's been my mission on message boards ever since I first started posting on them. But I wasn't counting on the loss of "poor ole MSU" transferring directly into "gotta beat Bama and win championships and should have done it yesterday". At some point there -- mathematics and common sense have to take over or else apathy sets in because reality was lost while chasing white whales.

To win the National Title -- you've first got to win the SEC. There have been exactly 6 teams win the SEC since 1963. That's 53 years of data. Otherwise known as the BIG6. In claimed conference titles, you've got:
Alabama - 19
Auburn - 7
LSU - 7
Georgia - 8
Tennessee - 7
Florida - 9
(Obviously many are shared prior to the division split and title game)

So, now we are not only defying 130 years of our own history -- we are defying at least 54 years of SEC history. 54 years -- and not one single blip. Hell -- we came the closest of anyone in 98. We led later than any non-big-6 team ever has in the SEC championship game I'm pretty sure. Taking all the names off the jerseys -- and looking at it as an equation -- we are an infinitesimally small chance in the current landscape. That's just to win the conference. Not to win the national title. Do I think we can do it? Sure, why not. We were close last year on the backs of some really sketchy recruiting classes filled with backup plans that panned out. And I'm all for building toward it and critiquing how to do it -- without losing touch of the odds against us. But at some point this has changed here from being a goal to being an expectation -- and that small difference is where it becomes ridiculous. You don't break the landscape. You change it very gradually.

What about Oregon? They've pumped damn near a billion into trying to win a title. For 20+ years now. Ain't happened yet. They've come close.
What about Ok State? They've probably pumped the second most in. They came close once when they would have been utterly destroyed had they made the game by either of the 2 all-time SEC teams that year.
What about Washington? They just spent a stupid amount on facilities and hired THE hot name for a decade. They aren't even on the map yet although I think they are drastically improved next year.
What about aTm? They've invested $600mil and counting and won the press conference and recruiting. But they haven't even come close yet.
Hell -- Baylor and TCU have transcendent coaches -- in brand new stadiums -- and neither has done it. In fact they've only been a gnats ass closer to doing it than we have.

We've invested -- but we fall WELL below all of these teams in investment. For that matter -- in Mullen's tenure -- we are the 4th or 5th most invested team in our own division above the board -- and we NEEDED by far the most upgrades. Just for perspective. Hell, we could spend another $100mil tomorrow just on upgrades that we actually need right now. Pressbox, more skyboxes, a football-centric IPF, etc.

Guys -- we're still building. But it's time for a reality check. We aren't to tier 2 yet. We're up from the bottom of tier 4 to the top of tier 3. And expecting to be at the top of tier 1 isn't helpful to MSU in any way at this point in time. Sorry -- just my reality check rant. I can't wrap my mind around how pissed off people are about 19-7. Obviously the SEC was down last year -- but what if bowl season proves that the SEC was up this year?

[basedog]

Money has changed Msu and many other schools, but it also helps the Bama's of the world.

History is very important, not just football. Yes, Mullen and JWS have changed our concept on winning, our future is bright, but just not Bama bright.

If Msu played in any other conference.........one can only imagine. 9-4 is a good season indeed. Looking forward to next year!

Btw, you brought up some interesting history in football.

[BrunswickDawg]

x10000000000000000000 engie

[Reason2succeed]

Scheduling is also a part of our Bama problem. In my memory I can't remember us ever playing them
at the beginning of the season. Our only chance against a team with that much talent is to catch them early before they have jelled with an experienced team on our side. That's how we finally beat LSU last year.

[MabenMaroon]

You nailed it Engie, a large portion of this message board and other boards as well have been in a meltdown since last years EB over recruiting, coaching decisions, et al, we are close to breaking through to another tier/level but these next tiers/levels are so much more difficult to obtain. The advantages we have gained in money from the SEC structure, well, the other SEC members have gained that advantage as well. So that part of the equation is a wash across the conference. My feeling is that if we maintain the course we are on and don't become impatient we will break through to higher tiers/levels and will remain there. The main key will be not to back off of administrative and fan support. Someday the Alabama stranglehold and the usual powers that threaten them will momentarily lapse or falter, we just have to maintain the position to be able to take advantage at that time and crash on through.
It is also important to maintain full support and interest for all of the athletic programs as well. A rising tide lifts all boats including football. One should never lose sight of the fact that the major football powers nationwide are also major powers in many of the minor sports as well not just the big three men's sports. Winning championships in any endeavor helps tremendously with the other endeavors as it breeds a mindset or attitude that will affect everybody at a partcular institution.

[SheltonChoked]

I agree also Engine.

There are also diminishing returns on the SEC money. The benefit of us going from a $20 million budget to a $70 million budget is much much greater than Alabama going from $100 million to $150 million. There is just not enough to spend money on. After you build workout facilities for every sport, and a nutritionist. What else is left?

more $$ for coaches? Better facilities for non revenue sports? I think we are doing that too.

[cheewgumm]

I look at it more simply than building slowly over time.

Pay good players. Get better players.

That's what Oke Miss U is doing and it's working. Get better players and you too can beat good teams.

That's college football in a nutshell. We can talk all day about building over time, blah blah blah. It doesn't matter. You still get 3 star players unless you pay more.

Getting better at cheating is the key.

[engie]

I look at it more simply than building slowly over time.

Pay good players. Get better players.

That's what Oke Miss U is doing and it's working. Get better players and you too can beat good teams.

That's college football in a nutshell. We can talk all day about building over time, blah blah blah. It doesn't matter. You still get 3 star players unless you pay more.

Getting better at cheating is the key.

What OM is doing is a short-term fix. Not a long-term solution. And no, getting elite players isn't as simple as "paying" them. Longterm there are no shortcuts to the top. The teams that have permanently changed their perception in the past 30 years have done so with consistent building over so much time that people forget that they used to suck at one time. What teams truly fall into this category? Oregon and Va Tech are all I can think of off the top of my head. The flash in the pan cheaters eventually get caught and go back to the bottom of the heap. The piper gets paid eventually for doing what OM is on the level that they are doing it. Everyone likes to pretend they would trade a decade in obscurity to buy one magical run -- yet when the debt comes due, those same people are ready to fire coaches, ADs, compliance, Presidents, and everyone else the very next season.

It's amazing how short memories are around here with people wanting us to repeat our own RECENT history. That's what will put us over the top**. We got put on probation and lost scholarships in 98 exactly where we find ourselves today. The NCAA hammered us for the minor stuff the second time because it made us repeat offenders. We have 4 more years under the repeat offenders this time. That's clearly casually forgotten in the conversations here. This is also why it isn't important that OM gets hammered -- but it is important that they find themselves with enough to end up on probation with us.

People need to chill the heck out. We can win big recruiting on the level we did in 2015. But I do agree we've got to do it more consistently and got to do better on the OL, although I think we've got future bookends with Champion and Lashley. Losing Hughes is a dagger in recruiting. I'm not at all sure we've seen the end of our staff shakeup either...

[Liverpooldawg]

Engie NAILED it.

[AROB44]

What OM is doing is a short-term fix. Not a long-term solution. And no, getting elite players isn't as simple as "paying" them. Longterm there are no shortcuts to the top. The teams that have permanently changed their perception in the past 30 years have done so with consistent building over so much time that people forget that they used to suck at one time. What teams truly fall into this category? Oregon and Va Tech are all I can think of off the top of my head. The flash in the pan cheaters eventually get caught and go back to the bottom of the heap. The piper gets paid eventually for doing what OM is on the level that they are doing it. Everyone likes to pretend they would trade a decade in obscurity to buy one magical run -- yet when the debt comes due, those same people are ready to fire coaches, ADs, compliance, Presidents, and everyone else the very next season.
It's amazing how short memories are around here with people wanting us to repeat our own RECENT history. That's what will put us over the top**. We got put on probation and lost scholarships in 98 exactly where we find ourselves today. The NCAA hammered us for the minor stuff the second time because it made us repeat offenders. We have 4 more years under the repeat offenders this time. That's clearly casually forgotten in the conversations here. This is also why it isn't important that OM gets hammered -- but it is important that they find themselves with enough to end up on probation with us.

People need to chill the heck out. We can win big recruiting on the level we did in 2015. But I do agree we've got to do it more consistently and got to do better on the OL, although I think we've got future bookends with Champion and Lashley. Losing Hughes is a dagger in recruiting. I'm not at all sure we've seen the end of our staff shakeup either...

This is so very true, engie. But, the majority of folks on message boards (including this one) will turn a deaf ear to this. They still want to do what OM is doing, but they want someone else to put up the $$$$.

[OurState]

Your first post was perfect. This is less so.

There is no clean way to build a program. Oregon has been involved in high profile player purchases...

We need to cheat more and worry about TSUN cheating less. We can't let their cheating make us opt to play at a disadvantage so we can contrast ourselves with them.

[cheewgumm]

The teams that did it "over time " also did it by cheating. Bama, for example.

You are right though that if you win enough it becomes "accepted" and "expected " that you are good and that you are an "elite" recruiter. That's what OleMiss U is doing now. You already hear commentators saying how Ole Miss U is an elite recruiting school and the story is that it's expected . That becomes the narrative. I've even heard that Miss State can't expect to recruit with Bama,LSU and Oke Miss. Why? It's a big lie. Just pay more and we'll be right that there.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that College football is corrupt and the NCAA is toothless. You win by cheating better. Freeze is not an "elite" recruiter. They just cheat better.

[engie]

Your first post was perfect. This is less so.

There is no clean way to build a program. Oregon has been involved in high profile player purchases...

We need to cheat more and worry about TSUN cheating less. We can't let their cheating make us opt to play at a disadvantage so we can contrast ourselves with them.

I didn't say we "had to do it cleanly". You are insane if you think we're doing it "cleanly" now. Everyone's flip out is in response to how OM is doing it. I do not long to do it on their level -- and it's a matter of time before everyone sees why that is. We need to do exactly what we are doing -- and find a way to get 1 or 2 more guys every year. We did that in 2015.

[cheewgumm]

I hope you are right about Ole Miss U. I think your implication is that Probation is coming.

However Treadwell signs,flashes loads of cash on Twitter and here we are 3 years later and he's about to be a 1st round pick . What has the NCAA done? <crickets>

I'm also not hopeful on Tunsil. The NCAA in fact cleared him to play. That tells me they have nothing else on him. And you can say "well he sat out 6 game" or however many it was. If the price fir a 5star LT who may be the #1 pick is 6 games on 3 years.... Count me in.

[engie]

The teams that did it "over time " also did it by cheating. Bama, for example.
Bama has been elite since football was played. They played in two of the first 15 got dang Rose Bowls. This comment is ridiculous.


Maybe I'm wrong but I think that College football is corrupt and the NCAA is toothless. You win by cheating better. Freeze is not an "elite" recruiter. They just cheat better.
They cheat harder. Time will tell if better. They are under investigation let's remember.

[cheewgumm]

To be clear, you are saying it is " ridiculous" to say that Bana has built their program by cheating over time?

[TUSK]

To be clear, you are saying it is " ridiculous" to say that Bana has built their program by cheating over time?

1645

[cheewgumm]

Ha. I'm not baiting him. He'll out research me.

I just think it's true. And I'm not even complaining about Bama. They're are winning at the game. I'm a fan, to some extent.

We need to cheat better. On that we agree.

[TUSK]

Ha. I'm not baiting him. He'll out research me.

I just think it's true. And I'm not even complaining about Bama. They're are winning at the game. I'm a fan, to some extent.

We need to cheat better. On that we agree.

I know, buddy... I was mostly kidding...

Deal is, ya gotta cheat at some point so that (in the future) ya don't hafta cheat (as much)... winning also helps with the "recruit buyin exchange rate", as well...

I'm with ya....

[Political Hack]

Cheating at the level OM does has negative effects on your players' willingness to buy in and be coach able. You can't send that to a staff to manage. Freeze is managing a circus. Mullen is managing football players. Time will tell which one pays off the best, but I think one is a boom or bust method while the other builds consistency that will allow state to allude future decades of 3-win seasons.

[engie]

To be clear, you are saying it is " ridiculous" to say that Bana has built their program by cheating over time?

Bama was elite day 1. People were still driving model T's -- Bama was elite. People went to war in WW2 -- Bama was elite. Vietnam -- Elite. You name it. They've been elite at football prettymuch from the very first day football was played in Alabama. Do you think someone decided -- "well we are going to try this new brute sport called football -- let's hop on the train and go buy players"? National titles in 8 different decades.

No -- Bama is not built on the foundation of cheating. Sure, they cheat just like everyone else in the conference -- and when they struggle -- they cheat harder than everyone else. Which often leads to them getting popped -- which then leads to a decade in obscurity even with all of their built-in advantages.

My issue is -- the cycle tends to repeat itself -- and us getting impatient and going overboard with cheating is begging to restart the cycle.

[TUSK]

Bama was elite day 1. People were still driving model T's -- Bama was elite. People went to war in WW2 -- Bama was elite. Vietnam -- Elite. You name it. They've been elite at football prettymuch from the very first day football was played in Alabama. Do you think someone decided -- "well we are going to try this new brute sport called football -- let's hop on the train and go buy players"? National titles in 8 different decades.

No -- Bama is not built on the foundation of cheating. Sure, they cheat just like everyone else in the conference -- and when they struggle -- they cheat harder than everyone else. Which often leads to them getting popped -- which then leads to a decade in obscurity even with all of their built-in advantages.

My issue is -- the cycle tends to repeat itself -- and us getting impatient and going overboard with cheating is begging to restart the cycle.

that's a pretty good post, Engie... kudos.