Does holder need to add a change up?

[Majors42]

The lindgren thread got me thinking about something. Me and a couple buddies were at the CWS and ended up sitting by some louisville baseball players. They all said that if holder had a change up or decent off speed pitch, he would be unhitable.

Obviously he is close to that but it does seem that opponents can sit on the fast ball if his curve is not landing in the zone.

[Todd4State]

Relief pitchers really only need two pitches. Even in MLB. See Mariano Rivera. If he adds a third pitch, it would be nice to have, but I don't think it's totally necessary.

Any pitcher that only has two pitches- if they can't throw one for a strike hitters will always sit on the other. To me, Holder's issue was more about him overthrowing and being jacked up than anything else. And some of it in the postseason in my opinion was the umpire. Like against Central Arkansas- that umpire wasn't giving him a call on his fastball, but every curveball was a strike. In Virginia his first inning was really good, but the second inning the umpire started to squeeze him for some reason.

And I say that to say this- I'm not blaming the umpire- but you have to adjust to their strike zone sometimes.

[Coach34]

yes...dominant Closers that throw 95+ need 2 pitches...Closers that dont throw 95+ need a 3rd pitch. Holder is not a 95+ guy and wont be. He needs a cutter or a change to add to the arsenal

[It_Could_Happen]

If you were voted the 2nd best closer in the country behind the kid from UCLA I think your doing fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

Yes. No clue how he is dominant. He throws 92 most the time. He isnt a mlb player

[Dawg61]

I think EVERY pitcher should have a change up. It's such an easy pitch to learn too imo and it is less stressful on the arm compared to a curve. A devastating change always beats a devastating curve. A nasty slider beats both. Fastball, cutter and changeup are what I think every pitcher should know how to throw before a curve.

[AlSwearengen]

I think he needs a third pitch, even if it is just a different fastball. A change up that falls away from lefthanded hitters would be crazy.

[Coach34]

I think EVERY pitcher should have a change up. It's such an easy pitch to learn too imo and it is less stressful on the arm compared to a curve. A devastating change always beats a devastating curve. A nasty slider beats both. Fastball, cutter and changeup are what I think every pitcher should know how to throw before a curve.

A properly thrown 12-6 curveball is not that stressful on the arm. The slider is to the elbow what football is to the knee though. That's one reason you are seeing the rise of the cutter these days.

All pitchers needs to change speeds- period. Holder has a FB and a really good curveball- so he needs a cutter/slider or a change- especially if he wants to continue on after college.

[messageboardsuperhero]

A splitter or a changeup would be good for him to have to throw the hitters off the fastball. Holder is hittable at times when the batters sit on the fastball and adjust to the curveball since it's slower and they look different out of the hand. If he had something that looked like a fastball out of his hand but had late sink (splitter) or would die at the plate (changeup), I think it would help him a lot. It wouldn't even have to be as good of a pitch as his fastball or curveball; all it would have to do is keep the hitters from sitting on his fastball. And then when Holder's got them thinking about those two pitches, he can totally catch the hitters off guard with the curveball, which would make that pitch much better too.

[It_Could_Happen]

So are you saying a curveball is not considered an off speed pitch anymore?

[WeWillScrewItUp]

I'm thinking if he could throw a splitter effectively he would take that step from almost unhittable to unhittable.

[It_Could_Happen]

I like that idea more than a change

[engie]

I think he needs a 3rd pitch to have success at the next level...

Saw some of the better coached, better hitting teams have some degree of success against them in the postseason -- and it was from having a good scouting report and sitting on one pitch...

[It_Could_Happen]

I think he needs a 3rd pitch to have success at the next level...

Saw some of the better coached, better hitting teams have some degree of success against them in the postseason -- and it was from having a good scouting report and sitting on one pitch...


Can you be more successful with a 3rd pitch? Yes. Is it necessary? No. Rivera is a prime example of that. 2 great pitches can lead to a long successful career.

[Dawg61]

Yea problem is the splitter is a very difficult pitch to learn how to throw relatively close to the strikezone. I'm a huge changeup fan though. It's such a brutal pitch if thrown correctly. So is the split but there's way less pitchers than can throw a great split compared to the many that can throw an effective change.

[state66]

I just find it hard to believe he doesnt have changeup or something to change speeds with. No way he wasnt throwing one in high school and the amount of bullpens you throw as a pitcher in the offseason why wouldnt you be tinkering with third and fourth pitches on just a couple pitches a bullpen after working on your, in holders case, your fastball and curveball.

[Dawg61]

Rivera has an absolutely disgusting cutter. NOBODY but him can throw that pitch that consistently. You can't compare anybody to Rivera. He is so great he simply has no peer in the history of baseball. Greatest closer ever no questions asked.

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

Holder has the chance to be the all time ncaa saves leader with a 93 fastball and a 12-6 curve. If he develops a 3rd pitch, he will be the all time ncaa saves leader

[ShotgunDawg]

Ok, here you go, follow along the best you can. I'm going to walk you through the thought process.

Holder is a right handed pitcher:

1. All MLB pitchers, except for lefty matchup guys, need the ability to get both left handed and right handed hitters out.

2. For right handed pitchers, sliders are effective against right handed hitters because they break away, but not so much against left handed hitters because the ball breaks in to them. Thus, if a right handed pitcher throws a slider, he WILL NEED a change-up or split finger to get professional left handed hitters out. I prefer a change-up because the excessive throwing of split fingers can cause your velocity to go down. This is due to the position the wrist must sit in to throw an effective split finger.

3. Because true curveballs break 12/6 or 11/5 and not side-ways like a slider, right handed pitchers that throw a curveball DON"T NEED a change-up to get left handed hitters out. Thus, because Holder throws a curveball and not a slider, he DOES NOT, need a change up to pitch in MLB.

4. However, should he have the ability and feel to throw a change-up that can create swing and miss at the pro level, then it could only help him to throw one. However, as a reliever because starters ALWAYS NEED 3 pitches, if he can only develop a "get me over" change-up, then he would basically be wasting a pitch in which he could've used his swing and miss curveball.

5. A cutter is a good pitch, but is something that he'll develop in pro ball if needed, and cutters are usually for pitchers that have good change-ups and fastballs, but lack the ability to get good depth on their breaking balls or good movement on their fastball, and that isn't Holder's problem. He'll get drafted the highest by only worrying about his curveball and fastball.

In summery, due to Holder throwing a curveball and not a slider, he doesn't "need" a change-up. However, if he has the ability to develop an above average, swing and miss change-up, then it could only help him.

The main thing to understand is that good pitchers have pitches that work together, compliment each other, and serve a purpose. A good fastball and curveball compliment each other pretty damn well because both pitches serve a purpose. A slider and change-up compliment each other well because slider break left and good change-up run right. An average change-up wouldn't change his effectiveness much because he only faces 3-5 hitters and the game in on the line. No sense in throwing an average pitch, that doesn't compliment a CB all that well, when the game is on the line. If its a swing and miss change-up then its a different story because that pitch would be a weapon.

Its also important to understand that developing a "get me over change-up" isn't that difficult, but developing a swing and miss change-up that can be used as a weapon, is a very very difficult to thing to do.

Hope this helps and you guys learned something.

[engie]

Can you be more successful with a 3rd pitch? Yes. Is it necessary? No. Rivera is a prime example of that. 2 great pitches can lead to a long successful career.

Holder doesn't have 2 great pitches. He has one great pitch(the breaker) and locates well and rarely makes the fatal mistakes with the second one(and college hitters with these bats are less likely to make him pay for it when he does). He's got a 90-92 fastball that's flat. At the next level, that pitch isn't good enough to be successful unless he adds deception to the pitch in the form of either a cutter or a change...

You can't really even compare him to 99% of MLB closers -- because almost all of them throw alot harder than Holder does...

MLB guys will crowd the plate and sit dead red on that fastball -- and turn it around when he locates it on the outside corner...

[Todd4State]

Holder doesn't have 2 great pitches. He has one great pitch(the breaker) and locates well and rarely makes the fatal mistakes with the second one(and college hitters with these bats are less likely to make him pay for it when he does). He's got a 90-92 fastball that's flat. At the next level, that pitch isn't good enough to be successful unless he adds deception to the pitch in the form of either a cutter or a change...

You can't really even compare him to 99% of MLB closers -- because almost all of them throw alot harder than Holder does...

MLB guys will crowd the plate and sit dead red on that fastball -- and turn it around when he locates it on the outside corner...

Holder also normally has really good control. He knows that when we have the lead that most teams are going to be taking early in the count as well and because of that he normally gets ahead a lot of the time even though his fastball isn't Aaron Weatherford-esque.

I suspect when he does go pro he is going to add some more velocity. He won't ever be Aroldis Chapman, but 94-96 I could see that happening.

And to those saying that a change-up is easy to add- not for everybody. It's more about feel with pitchers as far as how quickly they pick up a pitch. And then sometimes you have to figure out what kind of a change that pitcher is comfortable with.

I don't know what he is working on in the Cape, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if Butch tries to add something in the off season.

[Todd4State]

Rivera has an absolutely disgusting cutter. NOBODY but him can throw that pitch that consistently. You can't compare anybody to Rivera. He is so great he simply has no peer in the history of baseball. Greatest closer ever no questions asked.

OK- well, Bruce Sutter was pretty much a two pitch guy. Dennis Eckersley was pretty much a fastball, slider guy as a closer. Most closer in MLB that have a third pitch just use it as an emergency bail out pitch.

[engie]

Alot of closers are 2 pitch guys... I don't think anyone is doubting that...

Just don't think Holder has the fastball(currently) to pull it off. If he pulls a Papelbon and finds another 5-7MPH, then sure it could happen -- and he'd get by with it just fine...

[The Croom Diaries]

yes...dominant Closers that throw 95+ need 2 pitches...Closers that dont throw 95+ need a 3rd pitch. Holder is not a 95+ guy and wont be. He needs a cutter or a change to add to the arsenal

If I recall Trevor Hoffman threw about 90 mph and only had two pitches, and he is the 2nd greatest closer of all time.

But I do think at the next level he should develop a change up if for nothing else to have in his back pocket for hitters to be aware of.

[Skyhawk]

It is very late to post here but i must want to express my wish for Holder.
I am great fan of him and always follow him at every place. I think he is the only one who deserves victory.

[AlSwearengen]

we need a breakdown of his pitches that were swung at and missed. I noticed that while his fastball didn't get hit hard very often, hitters were able to make contact with it. When Holder was having trouble with the command on his curve, I got really nervous because his fastball isn't good enough to live off of.

[Saltydog]

Cohen uses him in long relief, I think a third pitch would be beneficial. I can see a guy that only pitches one or two innings max getting away with two pitches but a guy throwing more than that needs another pitch IMO. Granted, he's good enough to get by with it at this level but would he get by with it at the pro level? I doubt it.

[engie]

If I recall Trevor Hoffman threw about 90 mph and only had two pitches, and he is the 2nd greatest closer of all time.

Hoffman was a 3-pitch guy... From his wiki bio(he broke into the league in the mid-upper 90s with velocity)...


He also retired with the highest career strikeout rate of any reliever.[note 1] Though he entered the majors with a powerful fastball, an injury after the 1994 season permanently sapped Hoffman's fastball velocity and forced him to reinvent his pitching style; he subsequently developed one of the best changeups in baseball.

[CJDAWG85]

Holder needs another pitch that comes in on the same plane as his fastball. It's easy for the batter to see the difference between his fastball and his curve. A slider, cutter, or change up would be awesome.

[State82]

I don't think it would necessarily have to be a change up, but a well developed third pitch for him would make him really nasty. I sure would like to see Butch work with him on that this fall, for whatever pitch type they think would be most effective for him.

[I seen it dawg]

If that dude develops a change up he would truly be devastating. With that hammer he has, if he throws a change up fools would be breaking their own knees. 2 pitch closers only are in existence if they bust 95 or are named Mariano Rivera. Period.