What does MSU have to do to be a constant force in football?

[Goat Holder]

I was thinking about this while I was screwing around on message boards last night. What can MSU really do to be a competitor in football? There was a thread earlier talking about how Ole Miss has the perception, or the show, and we have the grinders who work hard, and I believe that?s true, especially under Croom and Mullen. When we got too many ?show? guys under Sherrill, it all fell apart. Ole Miss seems to be able to deal with that better than us, and ultimately, they usually out-perform us by a tad bit on average. I guess it?s because they act like they are the place to be, so people believe it, while we act like we?re the worst place imaginable.

But anyway I?ve decided that you have to embrace what you are, and at MSU that is grindin' and working hard or whatever, but at the same time have a level of that showboat stuff. Auburn is a good example, even they needed a Cam Newton to win it all and had a brand. And back in 2004 they got some of the showboat players that Alabama would have typically gotten had they not been on probation. So, besides recruiting better (which is a product of many things), what does MSU have to do to stay afloat?

- Obviously increase the budget. But we can't just rely on this, we'll never catch the big boys. It's not a strength in other words. In my opinion we need to do just enough to create the perception of big timing it.....and a perfect example is the stadium. It doesn't hold 100K, but it's certainly going to appear big time on TV and anywhere else. Ole Miss has been fooling people for years with this as well. Jumbotron helps the atmosphere too.

- Growth of Starkville. Again, this is not a strength, so we need to just do enough where this isn't a weakness. And we're well on the way to doing this. GTR area is growing, and we have good leadership in city office, probably the best we've ever had. These first two could help attract a few of the less egotistical showboat players.

- Go overboard on Offensive Line players. I hit on this in the other thread. Stockpile them like Cohen does pitchers. Make sure this is always a strength and that we don't get beat here. It makes everyone else's job easier. Seems like our QB curse is more due to a terrible line most of the time, than the QB actually being terrible.

- Dual threat QB. Most will agree that in college, for under-manned teams, it's best to have this more often than not.

- Innovative offense. MS produces defensive talent and we always seem to have good defenses, unless we hire bums like Torbush and Wilson (one of the few complaints I've had with Mullen). We need to spend our money on offense. Our best coaches always had specific plan for offense.

- Recruiting focus. Obviously always on the State of MS, but out of state, focus on fertile areas where the rest of the country isn't....that's Alabama and Louisiana. Sure the instate schools are there but they can't get them all. Our brand is Our State.....we need to be regional unless we have ties to other areas (apparently we do in Atlanta now).

- Go heavy in JUCO. No secret here.

- Fix our compliance department....whether it's Bracky or whatever....help more MS athletes get qualified.

Anything else? I guess I'm just not in the camp that says MULLINZ NEEDSTA RECROOT BETTER HO HE HA HUM !!!!111. We've been doing this same shit for 100 years. I honestly think the man is doing the best he can with what he has to work with. As fans, if we want to win, we honestly need to be thinking about this sort of thing. Should be asking these questions. What can WE do?

[camsu]

Very good write up ==
1. We have to be flexible in when and where we recruit. It appears one yr MS has numerous players and next not so many, so we have to move back and forth.
2. Agree on OL but add front 7 on D to that. So many injuries on OL we need to make this priority year in and year out. If the front 7 stays strong we stay in games.
3. Don't know enough about compliance but why aren't we doing what others are, so have to look here.
4. Stay true regardless to who we are.
5. We need to use all sports to recruit all sports. Why not have the Baseball guys help with FB, etc. All these guys follow all the sports why not use this to help each sport.
6. When recruiting schools for students why not tie in sports if we are not all ready.

[Ghost of Hank Flick]

There a problem you listed that we could fix this afternoon - our compliance department.

I don't want to go "heavy" on jucos. We absolutely need jucos at Mississippi State - they help us tremendously. But going heavy on them just sets you up for a collapse. You have to hit on them more often than a high school player because you are relying on them to make an impact right away. And as we all saw in 2001 - they can come in and destroy your team/program. That class didn't just set us behind the 8 ball, it threw us out of the billiard room and shut the door. I just don't think you can bring in 5-8 guys per year (or double digits in the case of '01) that are going to get a bunch of playing time and expect them to gel with the rest of the team just like that. You bring in 2 or 3 per year to supplement what you need.

We are getting good players. I don't know what everyone is bitching about recruiting wise. We have positioned ourselves so that when we do land a special player or two we can cycle up and compete for the west. It might need to be QB like Auburn and A&M have done. It may be a group of WRs like Arkansas. It may be a couple of big time 5-stars like South Carolina. But we have a solid nucleus that will only continue to grow as we continue to string winning seasons together.

Our fanbase could help out by not being a bunch of pansies. Some things could be done in Starkville to help out. But step back, take a look around. MSU is doing things to improve...a ton of stuff. We are growing and improving faster and better than ever.

[FlabLoser]

1. Modernize compliance department
2. Turn University Drive into Bourbon Street
3. Pay our assistants better
4. Get key boosters on the right page

[Todd4State]

I think the main two things we need to do as a program:

1. Update the compliance dept. I like the idea of moving Bracky to women's sports.

2. Raise the salary of our assistants. You want to know why we have had four DC's under Mullen? This is the real reason why when you get down to it. You don't pay, and you get retreads like Torbush, guys that want to move up like Manny who we would have zero chance of keeping in a bidding war, or someone unproven like Chris Wilson. Same with the offense and to a degree recruiting in terms of actual football coach recruiters.

[Goat Holder]

FlabLoser and Todd4State: I just think those things are simply just keeping us in the same ballpark as our competition. It's not getting us ahead in any way. I would almost classify those as weaknesses that we simply need to shore up to average. We're never going to beat the big boys in those categories. Don't get me wrong though - it definitely needs to be done.

We have to find some areas, or lines of thinking and strategy, where we can actually WIN battles. At least if we want to compete for titles.

[Todd4State]

We're winning 8 games a year as it is. I think our realistic ceiling is 10 wins a year. Shoring up those two things I mentioned would get us there.

[Goat Holder]

That's why I said compete for titles.

The bowl system is going away slowly but surely. The playoff will catch steam, then they'll expand it to 8, maybe in 16 over the next 20 years. If you're not competing for the championship, you're not competing. That's why I want to bridge the gap between your goal (10 wins) and the national title.

I didn't start the thread for woe is me type stuff, talking about realistic ceilings of 10 wins. The intent is to think about ways to get over that. They may not be there - but damn we should at least think about it.

[archdog]

That's why I said compete for titles.

The bowl system is going away slowly but surely. The playoff will catch steam, then they'll expand it to 8, maybe in 16 over the next 20 years. If you're not competing for the championship, you're not competing. That's why I want to bridge the gap between your goal (10 wins) and the national title.

I didn't start the thread for woe is me type stuff, talking about realistic ceilings of 10 wins. The intent is to think about ways to get over that. They may not be there - but damn we should at least think about it.

1. Win and look good doing it.
1a. When you lose, be competitive to the very end, like we were in 2010.
2. Mullen should be cocky in his interviews, show them we are not the whipping boy of the conference, but you have to back it up with wins.
3. You have to get better at impressing the 13-17 year olds that make it to campus for visits or camps. Hook em while they are young, like the American Tobacco Industry.
4. Speed up the offense and move Tyler out of the pocket on timing throws.
5. Pitch the ball on the goaline.

[Goat Holder]

1. Win and look good doing it.
1a. When you lose, be competitive to the very end, like we were in 2010.
2. Mullen should be cocky in his interviews, show them we are not the whipping boy of the conference, but you have to back it up with wins.
3. You have to get better at impressing the 13-17 year olds that make it to campus for visits or camps. Hook em while they are young, like the American Tobacco Industry.
4. Speed up the offense and move Tyler out of the pocket on timing throws.
5. Pitch the ball on the goaline.

I don't know why I even try.

[CadaverDawg]

I don't know why I even try.

Haha, I was wondering how you would respond to that post.

In response to your OP though, Goat, I pretty much agree with you 100%....

This is probably a bad comparison, but I think about the Seattle soccer team in the MLS. They realized that soccer was not huge in the MLS from a fan support perspective, so they built a small stadium but it is basically just a mini-Euro style stadium that allows for the same type of atmosphere with about 1/4 of the fans. They have flashy uniforms, they market outside of the box, and they are successful with it.

We need to build a team based on what our State produces. That's why I am excited about the future starting next year so much. MS is a breeding ground for big uglies, RB's and dual threat athletic QB's. We need to recruit to that and perfect it. Success can draw in talent far more than Flash, so we need both. Be the road grinding, most physical team, while also being the most creatively marketed. Take what Alabama is doing with the physicality, and combine it with what Oregon is doing from a uniform/marketing standpoint...and then keep our facilities up to date even if they are a smaller scale.

I guess when I think of what MSU could be, I think of 60,000 fans ringing cowbells in that new horseshoed stadium, the team wearing the Snow Bowl uni's, and us running down hill over our opponents and playing stingy D. We have shown the ability to do all of those things in the last 5-10 years, we just have to package it all together and perfect it.

And the City of Starkville and its' business's have to get on the same page with the University and our athletic program. Mississippi State and Starkville are a package deal, and it's time for Starkville to start doing its' part and quit just feeding off of the college. The only way Starkville and it's businesses grow is if the University and its' football and athletic programs grow....and the only way THEY grow is if Starkville and its' businesses help with the growth. It's a give and take, and every year it's more and more about the package deal to these kids. We have to be able to sell winning/bowl games, a city and night life, uniforms and updated facilities, AND our great people. We already have the people, winning (at a small level), and we're getting there with uni's and facilities....it's time to make Starkville a destination now.

We need businesses, bars, restaurants, and a student body that wants to help recruit and win. And of course, we eventually need to get rid of the elephant in the room, Bracky.

This is a great thread, and I may be off by a long shot on some of these ideas and what I think...but I think we can get there if we all get on the same page.

[DownwardDawg]

I don't know why I even try.

Hahaha!!!!

[Ronny]

...MSU has to recruit a bunch of mean motherf*ckers who will knock the shit out of you on defense.

That is the historical essence of Miss. State winning football games.

Strange how Jackie Sherrill proved that's how to consistently win @ MSU, but we never stayed true to the formula.

[CadaverDawg]

...MSU has to recruit a bunch of mean motherf*ckers who will knock the shit out of you on defense.

That is the historical essence of Miss. State winning football games.

Strange how Jackie Sherrill proved that's how to consistently win @ MSU, but we never stayed true to the formula.

Do you think we just decided to go away from "mean mother****ers who will knock the shit out of you"? Geez.

[Political Hack]

Lots of good ideas here. One thing that irks me is that our administration has crept bak into the mindset that they need to make money and don't care about W's as much as $. We battled this under LT, and I think it's returned. Theyre cashing their chips in this year with the kickoff game instead of making certain we get to a bowl game. They don't understand that the real money comes with the W's... when sells out happen, when Starkville floods with fans, including out of town fans, when we sell more merchandise, when we fill up every hotel room within 100 miles, when BDC donations go up, when students honor a winnig a tradition with their clothes, money, web presence, and water cooler talk. W's get us there and th biggest and fastest way to get there is scheduling. 7 home games every year and 4 guaranteed wins. That, remain better than UK, and win one more conference game gaurantees sustained success. 3 years isn't enough to jump off the cliff, and I hope we didnt royally screw up by taking a million dollar payday with Okie State.

[CadaverDawg]

Lots of good ideas here. One thing that irks me is that our administration has crept bak into the mindset that they need to make money and don't care about W's as much as $. We battled this under LT, and I think it's returned. Theyre cashing their chips in this year with the kickoff game instead of making certain we get to a bowl game. They don't understand that the real money comes with the W's... when sells out happen, when Starkville floods with fans, including out of town fans, when we sell more merchandise, when we fill up every hotel room within 100 miles, when BDC donations go up, when students honor a winnig a tradition with their clothes, money, web presence, and water cooler talk. W's get us there and th biggest and fastest way to get there is scheduling. 7 home games every year and 4 guaranteed wins. That, remain better than UK, and win one more conference game gaurantees sustained success. 3 years isn't enough to jump off the cliff, and I hope we didnt royally screw up by taking a million dollar payday with Okie State.

Good point. I agree.

[War Machine Dawg]

Invent a time machine so we can go back and make sure our retarded ass legislature only creates one centrally located major Mississippi university.

Other than that, we'll never be a "constant" force. Splitting players b/w 3 schools in a rather sparsely populated state doesn't translate to being a "constant" force. Hell, even DSU, Jackson State, Alcorn, etc. usually have a couple of guys that would be decent depth/Special Teams types for one of our "big" schools.

[Political Hack]

We own OM in the big 3. Why do you think they storm the field when they beat us?

[Goat Holder]

Give them a little more credit here. They thought they were playing Vandy when it got scheduled. Oh well, it's once in 4 years. As much as we want W's, we have to have a little money to go with it. I've personally heard Stricklin say that he wants to play his BCS opponent in a bowl game, as well all have probably heard, via Road Dawgs or whatever. They still remember that. Once in a while you have to throw a bone out there, so people won't judge you for the soft skeds.

[Goat Holder]

I said I don't want the woe is me stuff. Start your own thread if you want to do that shit. We have 3 schools, it's reality.

[Goat Holder]

Forgot about the uniforms, that's a good one. And I agree about the type players MS produces. A running offense with dual threat QBs is a must for us, unless available talent dictates otherwise.

[Ronny]

Do you think we just decided to go away from "mean mother****ers who will knock the shit out of you"? Geez.

..think we just decided to go away from "mean mother****ers who will knock the shit out of you."

If so compelled, I could go into Will James mode & present you a 2ft stack of documentation & data that proves it.

[CadaverDawg]

..think we just decided to go away from "mean mother****ers who will knock the shit out of you."

If so compelled, I could go into Will James mode & present you a 2ft stack of documentation & data that proves it.

So we just decided we didn't want mean guys on defense? I would love to see proof, but it isn't worth ruining a good thread over. We may have recruited poorly, but it wasn't because we wanted soft D-Lineman...that's dumb logic. By accident maybe, but not purposely.

[archdog]

I don't know why I even try.

So I figured I would keep it going. The truth of the matter is that there isn't a simple list of things we can do to sustain a winning football program, much less move it to the next level. We can list the (constant use of Jucos, dual threat QB's from Mississippi, the compliance office, OL and DL), but that is what every football team needs to strive for.

I would like to see a constant identity. School, Coaches, Town, Recruiters, students, offense, defense, special teams, strength coach, coordinators, and especially fans.

School - Needs to buy in even more to our overall image. The overall marketing of our majors in high schools need to convince everyone that our programs are the best. Do that and you get recruits, families, and future students to see the value the degree holds. If we get someone's sister, cousin, neighbor, etc to come to state, they have a connections. In recruiting and business connections matter. Also, start a law and journalism school. We already own UM medical school. In addition to all of that, the school and athletic department need to stop with all the adds. The only thing on the jumbotron during the game should be things that get the stadium going crazy. Atmosphere will bring in the money, stop with the advertisements during the entire game. I am surprised they even show replays after each play. Seems like a good time for some "Flavor". You can feel the entire stadium deflate after a great play. All the team has to do is call a timeout and it will take the crowd out of the game every time.

Coaches - They have to set the tone both in public and in private. Mullen came to the coast a few years ago for the road dawgs tour. His speech was inspirational. It outlined the 5 different levels of fandom. Great speech. This year, I am not even sure he prepared a speech. I was glad to see him, but man he missed an opportunity to get our fanbase off their collective asses and get into gear. He constantly has to have the fire to inspire. The next Fletcher Cox could have been in attendance that night. By the end of the speech, I wasn't even sure I was ready for the next season. He always, always needs to be pushing the school.

Town, Students, Fans, and Recruiters - There should not be a reason for the recruits to ever talk about a better night out or a better tailgating experience. Students should be there ready to show these guys what being a bulldog is all about. I know that the recruits are generally kept away from the crowd, but that needs to change. The junction is better than the grove, hell they eat cold chicken fingers for crying out loud. We drink more and aren't deuchebags. Do everything inside the rules to show these guys a good time.

Offense, Defense, and Special Teams You have to have an identity. For the past two years, I have a hard time describing what our team is trying to do. OK State moves the ball vertically, Alabama and LSU are pro-style smash mouth, UM last year was a series of quick strikes, FL (during Mullen's tenure) was a QB option system that could not be stopped. MSU on the other hand...... not sure. We could be the team that runs screens until you make a mistake. We could be the team that runs a read option spread. We could huddle and change the play at the line of scrimmage everytime. Until we correctly decide what we are going to be on offense, I see us struggling to get the right personnel for the future.

This is not a simple list. All of the things above contributes to recruiting even better talent. Every class has to be better than the one they are replacing. Mullen every year has brought in better players. We are building crazy depth.

There, does that answer meet your stringent requirements for someone to post in your topic?

[archdog]

Forgot about the uniforms, that's a good one. And I agree about the type players MS produces. A running offense with dual threat QBs is a must for us, unless available talent dictates otherwise.

Its good to have a running offense, but we will not attract the kind of talent required to be vertical if we never show the recruits we are committed to going vertical. Russel after one year helped us land some serious talent at WR. Dak is going to benefit from this, but the vertical threat has to continue.

[Goat Holder]

There, does that answer meet your stringent requirements for someone to post in your topic?

Yes.


I would like to see a constant identity. School, Coaches, Town, Recruiters, students, offense, defense, special teams, strength coach, coordinators, and especially fans........School - Needs to buy in even more to our overall image. The overall marketing of our majors in high schools need to convince everyone that our programs are the best. Do that and you get recruits, families, and future students to see the value the degree holds. If we get someone's sister, cousin, neighbor, etc to come to state, they have a connections. In recruiting and business connections matter. Also, start a law and journalism school. We already own UM medical school.

I agree with this. We have marketers sitting around, they should figure this out. Regarding the schools, I thought the merger of the W would have been great, then we'd have a nursing school and a physical presence in Columbus. We need to own the Golden Triangle. I know there will be sidewalk Bammers around that area needs to be pro-MSU. Same for West Point.....Mossy Oak, Old Waverly, all that needs to be considered MSU. A Golden Triangle marketing campaign. There's a lot of stuff within that 10 mile radius of GTR Airport.

[FlabLoser]

One win per year is all that separates us from next to last and 3rd place in the SEC West over 5 years

#SEC Record Last 5 Seasons /West:
Alabama (35-5)
LSU (28-12)
Arkansas (19-21)
Auburn (17-23)
MissSt (15-25)
Ole Miss (13-27)
Texas A&M (6-2)

[War Machine Dawg]

What's "woe is me" about stating a fact that splitting players among 3 major universities in a lightly populated state? It's just a fact. We can be a good program, but when I think of "constant force," I think of programs that have a legit shot to be in the title hunt every year. We *might* be able to do that once every 10-15 years, but otherwise we'll generally be a program that stays in the 6-9 win range most years.

That said, yes, there are some things we can do to maximize our chances of staying in the 6-9 W range and avoiding those 3-6 W type "down" seasons. Most have already been mentioned, but I'll go through them aGAIN: 1) Complete overhaul of our Compliance department. 2) Work closely with Starkville to improve the city and create an awesome party area that's attractive to 18-22 year old kids. 3) Load up on the OL & DL recruits. Ya wanna win, ya gotta have the hosses in the trenches. 4) Work our ass off out of state to get QBs & WRs. They're just more polished and college ready than most MS kids at those positions. 5) Work more closely with MS HS coaches to help improve the offensive systems and coaching being received early on. MS players tend to be raw because they get a lot of good fundamental coaching, but not much advanced coaching during their HS careers. Improving the offensive systems at the HS level will also lead to the development of more polished, college ready QBs & WRs. Eventually that will pay off in us having to rely less on out-of-state QBs & WRs. 6) Put an emphasis on JUCO recruits. Not to the JWS extent, but CBs, WRs, & OL should be big targets.

To me, 4 & 5 are the 2 biggest. We've GOT to work to improve the level of sophistication of MS HS football. These kids aren't dumb, for the most part. There's no reason we shouldn't be producing the polished talent that AL, GA, LA, and FL do. We may not be able to produce it in the same numbers due to our population, but we shouldn't have to be waiting 3 years for the top 5 MS QBs & WRs to "develop" every year, either. They should be ready to step in and contribute immediately or after a RS FR season at worst. Now of course, ideally we'd have the depth at QB so the recruit is buried deep enough he doesn't *have* to start until he's a RS Soph or RS Junior. But in terms of raw talent, he ought to be capable of playing well as a RS FR.

[Goat Holder]

What's "woe is me" about stating a fact that splitting players among 3 major universities in a lightly populated state? It's just a fact.

Exactly. It's not changing. So it has no point in this thread. I don't want to talk about our problems (we all know what they are), I want to talk about ways to fix them.


That said, yes, there are some things we can do to maximize our chances of staying in the 6-9 W range and avoiding those 3-6 W type "down" seasons.

See? You finally get it.


4) Work our ass off out of state to get QBs & WRs. They're just more polished and college ready than most MS kids at those positions. 5) Work more closely with MS HS coaches to help improve the offensive systems and coaching being received early on. MS players tend to be raw because they get a lot of good fundamental coaching, but not much advanced coaching during their HS careers. Improving the offensive systems at the HS level will also lead to the development of more polished, college ready QBs & WRs. Eventually that will pay off in us having to rely less on out-of-state QBs & WRs..........To me, 4 & 5 are the 2 biggest. We've GOT to work to improve the level of sophistication of MS HS football.

Agreed. And to add to this, redshirting comes in handy with MS players who are raw. I also like the idea of looking out of state for QBs and WRs.

[War Machine Dawg]

Agreed. And to add to this, redshirting comes in handy with MS players who are raw. I also like the idea of looking out of state for QBs and WRs.

Redshirting is definitely beneficial to us as a program. Plus, there are some positions where almost everyone should be redshirted, unless a kid is just an absolute freak of nature. OL & DL are the 2 biggest. I'd say only 2% of HS OL & DL are physically ready to play SEC football as true freshmen. They really do need 2-3 years before they're ready for this level of ball. Hell, even the Bamas, LSUs, Oregons, etc. don't usually start OL/DL until they're RS SO or RS JR year most of the time.

But RB, WR, and LB are positions where kids should be able to have an immediate impact as true freshmen. That's why we've got to have better, more sophisticated MS HS football. Joe Morrow should be a major factor instead of a near bust at this point, for just one example. Instead, we're still waiting on him to "develop" as a ****ing 3rd year player at WR. It shouldn't take that long unless the kid only played 1-2 years of football before college. And even some of those kids develop faster than most of our MS WRs. So until we're ready to address the problem at the Jr. High & HS levels, we can't really expect much more than the raw guys we get at the skill positions.

[archdog]

Yes.



I agree with this. We have marketers sitting around, they should figure this out. Regarding the schools, I thought the merger of the W would have been great, then we'd have a nursing school and a physical presence in Columbus. We need to own the Golden Triangle. I know there will be sidewalk Bammers around that area needs to be pro-MSU. Same for West Point.....Mossy Oak, Old Waverly, all that needs to be considered MSU. A Golden Triangle marketing campaign. There's a lot of stuff within that 10 mile radius of GTR Airport.

Agreed. GTR +20 miles seems to be the ticket.

[Hypnodawg]

I lived in Starkville from 95-01. Starkville has come a long way since then. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but don't act like they haven't improved. I'd say the culture of Starkville has done a 180deg about face from when I first went there. The city seemed to be openly oppressing the students in 95. I went back a few months ago and the change was staggering.