Can a non-elite college football program win a national title?

[5 Star]

College football national champions of the last 30 years (AP, then BCS):

Miami (4)
Alabama (4)
Florida State (3)
Florida (3)
Oklahoma (2)
Nebraska (2)
LSU (2)
Ohio State (2)
Penn State (1)
Notre Dame (1)
Colorado (1)
Auburn (1)
USC (1)
Texas (1)
Tennessee (1)
Michigan (1)

That's 16 teams over 30 years. Pretty distinguished list. Colorado seems to be the only oddball. There are also some like Georgia Tech and Washington, who split a title, who fit into that category (not AP, so not on the list). But essentially you are looking at 3 times in 30 years that a 'have-not' team has won a piece of a title, and all of those were 1990, before the modern day conference alignment, BCS and now playoff. ONE year. Many things have changed.

What does this tell you? Well, it tells me that if you aren't an established program with money, tradition and access to talent, you aren't winning it. Some have gotten close (Virginia Tech, Oregon), but never closed the deal. Now, with the playoff, the reality is even more sobering. With an extra game, that even further assures that the biggest, strongest, etc. will be standing while any flash in the pans will be broken. I think that list will be consolidated even further, probably to around 10 teams that have the means to actually meander a major conference schedule, championship game, and ever expanding playoff. If you aren't on that list, you may dream of making the playoff or a conference title, but that's pretty much your pinnacle. You aren't winning the whole thing.

I realize things change over time, but look at Oregon. They have been building a program for 20 years, have Nike, and still can't get over that bridge. What hope does that leave anyone else?

[scottycameron]

College football national champions of the last 30 years (AP, then BCS):

Miami (4)
Alabama (4)
Florida State (3)
Florida (3)
Oklahoma (2)
Nebraska (2)
LSU (2)
Ohio State (2)
Penn State (1)
Notre Dame (1)
Colorado (1)
Auburn (1)
USC (1)
Texas (1)
Tennessee (1)
Michigan (1)

That's 16 teams over 30 years. Pretty distinguished list. Colorado seems to be the only oddball. There are also some like Georgia Tech and Washington, who split a title, who fit into that category (not AP, so not on the list). But essentially you are looking at 3 times in 30 years that a 'have-not' team has won a piece of a title, and all of those were 1990, before the modern day conference alignment, BCS and now playoff. ONE year. Many things have changed.

What does this tell you? Well, it tells me that if you aren't an established program with money, tradition and access to talent, you aren't winning it. Some have gotten close (Virginia Tech, Oregon), but never closed the deal. Now, with the playoff, the reality is even more sobering. With an extra game, that even further assures that the biggest, strongest, etc. will be standing while any flash in the pans will be broken. I think that list will be consolidated even further, probably to around 10 teams that have the means to actually meander a major conference schedule, championship game, and ever expanding playoff. If you aren't on that list, you may dream of making the playoff or a conference title, but that's pretty much your pinnacle. You aren't winning the whole thing.

I realize things change over time, but look at Oregon. They have been building a program for 20 years, have Nike, and still can't get over that bridge. What hope does that leave anyone else?


The playoff was such a bad idea. Made even worse by the SEC's terrible idea to add TAM and Mizzou.
About the time we get good enough to be a factor, we stack the cards against us. Typical. It'll be status quo from here on out. Roll tide.

[ShotgunDawg]

College football national champions of the last 30 years (AP, then BCS):

Miami (4)
Alabama (4)
Florida State (3)
Florida (3)
Oklahoma (2)
Nebraska (2)
LSU (2)
Ohio State (2)
Penn State (1)
Notre Dame (1)
Colorado (1)
Auburn (1)
USC (1)
Texas (1)
Tennessee (1)
Michigan (1)

That's 16 teams over 30 years. Pretty distinguished list. Colorado seems to be the only oddball. There are also some like Georgia Tech and Washington, who split a title, who fit into that category (not AP, so not on the list). But essentially you are looking at 3 times in 30 years that a 'have-not' team has won a piece of a title, and all of those were 1990, before the modern day conference alignment, BCS and now playoff. ONE year. Many things have changed.

What does this tell you? Well, it tells me that if you aren't an established program with money, tradition and access to talent, you aren't winning it. Some have gotten close (Virginia Tech, Oregon), but never closed the deal. Now, with the playoff, the reality is even more sobering. With an extra game, that even further assures that the biggest, strongest, etc. will be standing while any flash in the pans will be broken. I think that list will be consolidated even further, probably to around 10 teams that have the means to actually meander a major conference schedule, championship game, and ever expanding playoff. If you aren't on that list, you may dream of making the playoff or a conference title, but that's pretty much your pinnacle. You aren't winning the whole thing.

I realize things change over time, but look at Oregon. They have been building a program for 20 years, have Nike, and still can't get over that bridge. What hope does that leave anyone else?

Yes. A non traditional team can win it & will soon.

MSU, Ole Miss, South Carolina, Baylor, TCU, & Texas A&M have all made major strides in recruiting over the past 5 years, &, due to the SEC money, the financial advantage that the historical powers have had is now shrinking at a quick rate. Due to the financial gap narrowing, the top non-traditional powers are now able to keep their coaching staffs together, which leads to better recruiting & continuity across the program.

Think about, for 50 years, when one of the major power had a poor couple of seasons, they would just go rob the 2nd tier's coaching staff and the 2nd tier's program would have to restart. Well, that doesn't happen as often anymore because Dan Mullen & Hugh Freeze can make 4+ mil a year in Starkville, Oxford, Waco, Fort Worth, etc.

[blacklistedbully]

Miami wasn't an elite program until they won a NC under Schnellenberger. Florida State did not become an elite program until the latter 80's. I wouldn't classify Colorado as an elite program at all. They had a nice little run for about 8 years until '96, then came back to the pack.

Schnellenberger took over a Miami program that was so bad, they were considering shutting down the program entirely. He was a pioneer in that he figured out you could win there by concentrating on the Miami area, focusing almost all recruiting efforts on that small area, and being willing to work with the thugs from there that were also tremendous athletes.

[Johnson85]

College football national champions of the last 30 years (AP, then BCS):

Miami (4)
Alabama (4)
Florida State (3)
Florida (3)
Oklahoma (2)
Nebraska (2)
LSU (2)
Ohio State (2)
Penn State (1)
Notre Dame (1)
Colorado (1)
Auburn (1)
USC (1)
Texas (1)
Tennessee (1)
Michigan (1)

That's 16 teams over 30 years. Pretty distinguished list. Colorado seems to be the only oddball. There are also some like Georgia Tech and Washington, who split a title, who fit into that category (not AP, so not on the list). But essentially you are looking at 3 times in 30 years that a 'have-not' team has won a piece of a title, and all of those were 1990, before the modern day conference alignment, BCS and now playoff. ONE year. Many things have changed.

What does this tell you? Well, it tells me that if you aren't an established program with money, tradition and access to talent, you aren't winning it. Some have gotten close (Virginia Tech, Oregon), but never closed the deal. Now, with the playoff, the reality is even more sobering. With an extra game, that even further assures that the biggest, strongest, etc. will be standing while any flash in the pans will be broken. I think that list will be consolidated even further, probably to around 10 teams that have the means to actually meander a major conference schedule, championship game, and ever expanding playoff. If you aren't on that list, you may dream of making the playoff or a conference title, but that's pretty much your pinnacle. You aren't winning the whole thing.

I realize things change over time, but look at Oregon. They have been building a program for 20 years, have Nike, and still can't get over that bridge. What hope does that leave anyone else?

I think the playoffs cuts both ways. yes, the extra game makes it harder for a weaker team to back in to a title, but it also makes it less likely that an undefeated but smaller name school gets left out altogether. What that list tells me is that it's hard to win the championship without a built in advantage and just having tradition isn't enough now. To me, the outliers on that list are Miami, Oklahoma, Colorado, Bama, Auburn, and Tennessee.

Nebraska, LSU, Ohio State, Michigan, Texas, and Penn State are all (or were around the time that they won) either the only major university or the clear leader of a state with a good sized population.

Notre Dame had the benefit of being the catholic university and tons of alumni support although I think that advantage is pretty much gone.

Florida and FSU have to compete with a lot of people for florida talent, but there's a ton of it there.

USC can pitch california.

On the other hand:

Miami is a small private school. Granted they're in a talent rich area, but I think they mostly benefited from Jimmy Johnson and then being ahead of the game when it comes to paying players, and riding that momentum. I don't think what they did can be copied by other small schools and even they are not coming back.

Alabama and Auburn don't have any advantage but having crazy fans. Not something other schools can copy.

UT has the benefit of being the major university for football in Tennessee, but they're not in a great area for recruiting and a lot of the State's population is closer to other universities. I don't think they're going to get another national title anytime soon.

The two schools to me that should give non-big name schools hope are Oklahoma and Colorado. Obviously Oklahoma is a big boy, but I don't see any reason why they would be other than that they've been well managed. They get to recruit texas. There is oil money supporting them. OKSt. was little brother for a long time. All good things but not just an incredible set up compared to a school like Va Tech.

And then there is Colorado. How the hell did they win it? Don't see any reason why any SEC school other than Vandy and UK can't match what they have/had.

[codeDawg]

I think things are changing b/c of the networks and draft. The revenue disparity isn't nearly as large as it once was and the teams that get the big recruits are losing talent a lot faster than before. The floors and ceilings of talent are narrowing.

[5 Star]

I think the playoffs cuts both ways. yes, the extra game makes it harder for a weaker team to back in to a title, but it also makes it less likely that an undefeated but smaller name school gets left out altogether. What that list tells me is that it's hard to win the championship without a built in advantage and just having tradition isn't enough now. To me, the outliers on that list are Miami, Oklahoma, Colorado, Bama, Auburn, and Tennessee.

Nebraska, LSU, Ohio State, Michigan, Texas, and Penn State are all (or were around the time that they won) either the only major university or the clear leader of a state with a good sized population.

Notre Dame had the benefit of being the catholic university and tons of alumni support although I think that advantage is pretty much gone.

Florida and FSU have to compete with a lot of people for florida talent, but there's a ton of it there.

USC can pitch california.

On the other hand:

Miami is a small private school. Granted they're in a talent rich area, but I think they mostly benefited from Jimmy Johnson and then being ahead of the game when it comes to paying players, and riding that momentum. I don't think what they did can be copied by other small schools and even they are not coming back.

Alabama and Auburn don't have any advantage but having crazy fans. Not something other schools can copy.

UT has the benefit of being the major university for football in Tennessee, but they're not in a great area for recruiting and a lot of the State's population is closer to other universities. I don't think they're going to get another national title anytime soon.

The two schools to me that should give non-big name schools hope are Oklahoma and Colorado. Obviously Oklahoma is a big boy, but I don't see any reason why they would be other than that they've been well managed. They get to recruit texas. There is oil money supporting them. OKSt. was little brother for a long time. All good things but not just an incredible set up compared to a school like Va Tech.

And then there is Colorado. How the hell did they win it? Don't see any reason why any SEC school other than Vandy and UK can't match what they have/had.
You are thinking along my own wavelength, I believe. I think there is a minimum threshold you must have to become 'elite', as far as resources, fans and talent. Alabama and Auburn are both above that level. Miami's talent was just that good.

As far as Colorado, as I pointed out above, that was just a different time, 1990. Since then, it's only gotten harder and harder.

[blacklistedbully]

Jimmy Johnson literally walked into a National Championship team. Howard Schnellenberger did all the heavy-lifting, got everything in-place, etc. HS won the first Miami NC in 1983, then left, handing that team over to Jimmy. JJ just got to sit in the driver's seat of that Ferrari and keep the oil changed at regular intervals.

JJ is, IMO, one of the luckiest, and most overrated coaches in the history of football. His only other college HC experience was at Ok State, where he was about as successful as the coach before him, and the coach that followed him. In 5 seasons at OSU, he had 2 losing seasons (including one 2 years before he took over NC Miami) and 2 seven-win seasons.

Then, he parlayed the Miami success, his personal friendship with Jones, and the colossal stupidity of the Minnesota Vikings into a nice run with a Dallas Cowboys team that was LOADED with talent and run by an owner with no spending limits.

Talk about being in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time!

[Quaoarsking]

Its just a coincidence that West Virginia, Stanford, Baylor, or Oklahoma State didn't get one this past decade. They all had a few teams that were good enough.

[5 Star]

I assume you are talking about these teams:

West Virginia 2007; Stanford 2011; Oklahoma State 2011; Baylor 2014;

Let's start from the most recent.

Baylor is laughable. They had their chance to get in and it didn't happen. They lost to an average West Virginia and got blown out. TCU was actually the better pick from the Big 12 when looking at total resume.

Oklahoma State got screwed in 2011 IMO, but even if they had made it, they still had to beat LSU. They'd have been in Virginia Tech/Oregon category.

Stanford was in the same situation. Were they going to beat LSU? Doubt it. Either way, they lost, as did Oklahoma State.

Another team you could put on this list is Boise State 2011, but bottom line they lost, and very likely would have lost to LSU. Louisville 2006 too, but assuming they did not get beaten on a last second FG, they still have to beat Ohio State.

Fact of the matter is, luck/timing and all that plays into reality. The fact is, they did NOT win it, therefore my theory rings true 99% of the time.

[Johnson85]

Its just a coincidence that West Virginia, Stanford, Baylor, or Oklahoma State didn't get one this past decade. They all had a few teams that were good enough.

I would say yes and no. They've gotten their programs close, but you have to have some things break your way in order to actually win a championship, and the teams that win championships are overwhelmingly teams that have elite teams often enough that eventually the odds breaking in their favor and having an elite team coincide. I think Stanford and Oklahoma St. are good examples supporting 5-Star's hypothesis. They both have a lot going for them. Stanford has everything going for it (rich alumni, good location, good conference) except probably academics cutting against it and less passionate fans compared to the SEC. Ok St was in a good conference, had decent recruiting grounds, fans that care, and T Boone Pickens. Neither one is likely to win a championship, but they're both in a pretty large group (along with MSU) of teams that can win it. You just have to have a really good coach field some elite teams, and stick around long enough and keep the team good long enough that the breaks eventually fall your way. I think basically any of your major conference teams except for Vandy or UK types can be this type of team. USCe, MSU, Arkansas, Ok St., Baylor, TCU, Clemson, etc. None of them have particularly good odds of winning a NC, but as a group, somebody is going to break through once in a blue moon.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

The playoff was such a bad idea. Made even worse by the SEC's terrible idea to add TAM and Mizzou.
About the time we get good enough to be a factor, we stack the cards against us. Typical. It'll be status quo from here on out. Roll tide.

Well we better pray for and appreciate a run of success right now because the SEC will expand again and there will eventually be the 5 power conferences.

[Maroonthirteen]

While I believe far more teams are capable of winning because of scholarship limits, TV and revenue. I think the path to win the NC is far more difficult. Therefore smaller schools with less depth, will have difficulty. We would have had to win 3 more games post Egg Bowl last year. That would have been difficult. Also, I think we saw last year that a non-elite would have to go undefeated. 1 loss TCU, Baylor and MSU (assuming Egg Bowl win) would have been left out for Ohio State.

[5 Star]

While I believe far more teams are capable of winning because of scholarship limits, TV and revenue. I think the path to win the NC is far more difficult. Therefore smaller schools with less depth, will have difficulty. We would have had to win 3 more games post Egg Bowl last year. That would have been difficult.
Agree completely.


Also, I think we saw last year that a non-elite would have to go undefeated. 1 loss TCU, Baylor and MSU (assuming Egg Bowl win) would have been left out for Ohio State.
MSU probably would have, since Alabama would have been above us. We can't really complain about that. Any other year, a 1-loss MSU team gets in. But yeah, after that it gets dicey. Ohio State's name, in addition to them winning a championship game, definitely played into the politics. I thought it should have been TCU personally.

[DancingRabbit]

Jimmy Johnson literally walked into a National Championship team. Howard Schnellenberger did all the heavy-lifting, got everything in-place, etc. HS won the first Miami NC in 1983, then left, handing that team over to Jimmy. JJ just got to sit in the driver's seat of that Ferrari and keep the oil changed at regular intervals.

JJ is, IMO, one of the luckiest, and most overrated coaches in the history of football. His only other college HC experience was at Ok State, where he was about as successful as the coach before him, and the coach that followed him. In 5 seasons at OSU, he had 2 losing seasons (including one 2 years before he took over NC Miami) and 2 seven-win seasons.

Then, he parlayed the Miami success, his personal friendship with Jones, and the colossal stupidity of the Minnesota Vikings into a nice run with a Dallas Cowboys team that was LOADED with talent and run by an owner with no spending limits.

Talk about being in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time!

JJ was a pretty good coach. He won the NC at Miami in his 4th year, so those were his players. Schnellenberger never did much anywhere except at Miami.

In Dallas he built that team. He's the one that sold that deal to Minnesota. He was brutalized at first as a rookie GM/coach when he traded Herschel away.

Switzer was the lucky one. He won an NFL title and should have won two while eating hot dogs on the sideline. That was Jimmy's team. If he stayed it would have been 4 straight.

[TheBagman]

You could argue the playoff also makes it harder for traditional powers to win it.

With the BCS, Bama would have beaten Oregon or FSU for the title, and we'd be hearing about the great Saban all summer. I'm glad OSU beat them.

[Charlie_Sheen420]

Colorado shouldn't even be on that list....they got a 5th down that gave them a win

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQJT8q0MMwQ

[blacklistedbully]

JJ was a pretty good coach. He won the NC at Miami in his 4th year, so those were his players. Schnellenberger never did much anywhere except at Miami.

In Dallas he built that team. He's the one that sold that deal to Minnesota. He was brutalized at first as a rookie GM/coach when he traded Herschel away.

Switzer was the lucky one. He won an NFL title and should have won two while eating hot dogs on the sideline. That was Jimmy's team. If he stayed it would have been 4 straight.

The framework for success at Miami had been laid by Schnellenberger. CHS took that program from close-to-being-cut to NC. Then he went to the USFL, giving the team to CJJ. CHS had already built it all, including the recruiting strategy and network. Miami OWNED South Florida at that time. CJJ had a stockpile of talent at his disposal, thanks to CHS. All JJ had to do was not screw that part up, then take his advantage in talent and coach it well enough to not take steps back.

The very fact that Miami won NC's before AND after JJ says a lot. He was a caretaker, a good one, but a caretaker.

Yes, I will give him credit for recognizing that the Minnesota deal was a no-brainer. I'll also give hum credit for not wasting all those picks on poor choices. That sai, there are any number of coaches who could have done a great job with that many picks available and an owner willing to spend whatever it took to win a championship. Remember, this was before the salary cap made it a lot tougher.

Are you aware CJJ was prepared to trade Michael Irvin to the Raiders rather than HW? Al Davis had an offer on the table, but literally talked Johnson out of it, not wanting the young coach to screw up that badly in his first year as HC in the NFL. It was only after Davis talked JJ out of trading MI that Johnson decided he needed a ton of picks more than he needed HW. They got a serious offer from Cleveland that was a lot less than what Minnesota eventually gave up, and were prepared to take that deal until Johnson and Jerry Jones together decided they might do better if they could get Minnesota involved in a bidding war. It was Mike Lynn's stupidity that lead to that deal. Yes, CJJ and JJ thought to start a bidding war, but it took Mike Lynn's stupidity and willingness to trade away Minnesota's future to make that deal happen.

[Johnson85]

Yes, I will give him credit for recognizing that the Minnesota deal was a no-brainer. I'll also give hum credit for not wasting all those picks on poor choices. That sai, there are any number of coaches who could have done a great job with that many picks available and an owner willing to spend whatever it took to win a championship. Remember, this was before the salary cap made it a lot tougher.


That was also before it was recognized that an established player for a bunch of picks was a no brainer. JJ takes credit for the system Dallas used that assigned values to each draft pick and figured out that mid round picks were way undervalued in the market. I assume if somebody else had come up with the system, you'd have seen some controversy over it, so I'm guessing he really was responsible. Seems like an obvious idea now, and maybe he was helped by an extra stupid minnesota gm, but I suspect that Al Davis and Cleveland would have ended up on the losing ends of their proposed trades too.

[blacklistedbully]

Schnellenberger never did much anywhere except at Miami.

In 1985, Schnellenberger returned to his hometown to coach another struggling program, the University of Louisville Cardinals. Schnellenberger inherited a situation that was as bad, if not worse, than what he'd inherited at Miami. The Cardinals had not had a winning season since 1978, and only two winning records in the previous 12 years. They played at Cardinal Stadium, a minor-league baseball stadium, and often hosted crowds so small that the school was forced to give tickets away. They also played in the long shadow of the school's powerful men's basketball team. The situation was so grave at Louisville that officials were considering dropping the football program down to I-AA. Nonetheless, at his opening press conference, he stunned reporters and fans by proclaiming the program "is on a collision course with the national championship. The only variable is time."

After going 8–24–1 in his first three years, Schnellenberger was able to turn the program around and go 24–9–1 the next three seasons. In 10 years, he led the Cardinals to their fourth and fifth bowl games in school history. They won them both, including a 34–7 thrashing of the Alabama Crimson Tide in the 1991 Fiesta Bowl, capping a 10–1–1 season and the school's first-ever appearance in a final poll (11th). The Fiesta Bowl appearance was the school's first-ever New Year's Day bowl game.

Schnellenberger left Louisville after the 1994 season. He recalled in a 2012 interview that his move to Oklahoma was a direct result of the impending creation of Conference USA:

I didn't leave because of money. I wasn't looking to go anywhere until that president (Dr. Donald Swain) pulled that baloney and put us in that conference that I didn't want to be in. I wasn't going to coach in a conference where I didn't have a chance to compete for the national championship.

Schnellenberger was replaced by Ron Cooper. Although Schnellenberger's record at Louisville was two games under .500 (largely due to his first three years), he has remained in the good graces of Cardinal fans due to the poor state the program was in when he arrived, giving him a reputation as a "program builder." He is also credited with laying the foundation for the program's subsequent rise to prominence. The Cardinals went to nine straight bowl games from 1998 to 2006.

CHS had one unsuccessful season at Oklahoma, retiring because the program and its athletes were so undisciplined that he couldn't stand it.

After many years away, he took on building a football program from scratch at FIU. Schnellenberger led the fledgling team through fund-raising, recruiting and practice. For their first practice in 2000, the Owls had 160 walk-ons and 22 scholarship players. FAU football played their first game on September 1, 2001, losing to Slippery Rock 40–7 after the FAU administration failed to certify 13 Owls starters in time to play. The very next game the Owls upset the No. 22 team in I-AA, Bethune–Cookman, finishing their first season 4–6. They regressed to 2–9 the following season, but went 11–3 and made the I-AA semifinals in their third. During their fourth season, the Owls posted a 9–3 record while transitioning to Division I-A, but were ineligible for both a bowl game and the I-AA playoffs because of their transitioning status.

After playing four years at the Division I-AA level, FAU moved to the Sun Belt Conference and Division I-A level in 2005. This goal had been one of Schnellenberger's primary objectives upon creation of the program. After two seasons in the Sun Belt, FAU football won the 2007 Conference title and secured its first ever bowl invitation, defeating Memphis 44–27 in the New Orleans Bowl. In just the seventh year of the football program's history, and the third year playing in Division I-A, Florida Atlantic set an NCAA record by becoming the youngest program ever to receive an invitation to a bowl game. For his success in 2007, Coach Schnellenberger was awarded the Sun Belt Conference Coach of the Year.

In 2008, Coach Schnellenberger led his 6-6 FAU Owls to a post-season bid at the Motor City Bowl against the Central Michigan Chippewas. This marked the first time a 6-6 Sun Belt Conference team that had not won the Conference Championship was invited to a post-season bowl. Although the Owls were underdogs, Coach Schnellenberger extended his post-season bowl record to 6-0, the most of any coach without a loss, with a 24-21 win.

Schnellenberger, whose contract as head coach expired at the end of the 2011 season, announced his retirement on August 11, 2011, effective at season's end.

Exactly how do you figure that CHS' only success was at Miami?

[DancingRabbit]

Exactly how do you figure that CHS' only success was at Miami?

Just a response to your evaluation of Jimmy at OSU. Didn't HS have 5 losing seasons out of 10 at Louisville?

Jimmy's definitely better off personally as a TV guy. The way he was successful was too hard on him and people around him.

I've never heard anyone credible describe Jimmy as just a lucky guy in the right place at the right time. If Jerry would have stayed out of the way, Jimmy would have taken a team that went 3-13 in '88 under Tom to 4 straight titles from '92-'95.

And Dallas had a total payroll in the bottom half of the league when Jimmy was there. Jerry didn't buy Jimmy a Super Bowl team.

[blacklistedbully]

Just a response to your evaluation of Jimmy at OSU. Didn't HS have 5 losing seasons out of 10 at Louisville?

Jimmy's definitely better off personally as a TV guy. The way he was successful was too hard on him and people around him.

I've never heard anyone credible describe Jimmy as just a lucky guy in the right place at the right time. If Jerry would have stayed out of the way, Jimmy would have taken a team that went 3-13 in '88 under Tom to 4 straight titles from '92-'95.

And Dallas had a total payroll in the bottom half of the league when Jimmy was there. Jerry didn't buy Jimmy a Super Bowl team.

I'd counter with, JJ's initial payroll was low because he hit a home run with all those draft picks that he didn't yet have to shell out a bunch of bucks for. Yes, as I said before, he gets props for using the numerous draft picks wisely. But later success was built on Jerry's open checkbook as well. Also, though Dallas had declined relative to their previous success, JJ still inherited a Dallas team that had finished 1st or 2nd in their division 20 of the past 24 years, 1st in 13 of those 24.

Keep in mind, Prior to taking over the NC Hurricanes in 1984, he had come off an 8-4 season at Ok State after a losing season in 1982. In other words, he hadn't exactly set the coaching world on fire prior to stepping into a goldmine in Miami.

Now consider Miami. As has already been stated, JJ walked into a program coming off a NC under CHS. CJJ finished in the Top 5 three times. The guy who followed him did it 4 times, the guy who followed CDE did it 1 time, and the guy who followed CBD did it 3 times. All of this supports my position that CHS was the one who built it, and that it was more about what CHS built than it was CJJ being a great coach. If not, then we wouldn't expect the 3 coaches that followed to have so much success as well.

Right-place-at-right-time. In fact, if you really want to know what CJJ was known for at Miami, it was the fact that he openly recruited thugs and encouraged thuggish behavior, as long as they won.

Also, with regard to your question about CHS having 5 losing seasons at Louisville, as was already pointed out, he had inherited a program in FAR worse shape than Ok State had been for JJ. In fact, Louisville was about to drop down to 1-AA when CHS yook them over and turned them around. And at UL he didn't have nearly the talent surrounding him he was able to corral at Miami.

Look, I'm not saying CJJ was not a good coach, just that I think he is vastly overrated, and was more fortunate than any other coach can think of in how his opportunities for advancement presented themselves. He still had to perform once he got those opportunities, but the challenge was so much less for him than it was for others.

[Dawgcentral]

I never have consider Miami an elite program. It's a private college that bought quite a few players back in the day, played a 1990 Gene Stallings Bama team, even while talking about "tradition" and got their asses handed to them in the title game. Didn't John Bond and Emory Bellard take them down in '80 and '81 when Jim Kelly was their QB?

Also, I believe Corso was right when he stated in 1999 That we were a top notch QB away from winning a national title. Who knows what kinda momentum could have been built had we been able to retain our offensive line the next year since two guys were lost to grades, and the upcoming NCAA investigation funded by TSUN hadn't had such a devastating effect.

Maybe we're not elite. I can accept that. But we got a damn good start toward getting there last year being ranked #1 for 5 weeks. Get to that Bama game undefeated this year and we're Back in the Saddle Again.

[BiscuitEater]

Miami wasn't an elite program until they won a NC under Schnellenberger. Florida State did not become an elite program until the latter 80's. I wouldn't classify Colorado as an elite program at all. They had a nice little run for about 8 years until '96, then came back to the pack.

Schnellenberger took over a Miami program that was so bad, they were considering shutting down the program entirely. He was a pioneer in that he figured out you could win there by concentrating on the Miami area, focusing almost all recruiting efforts on that small area, and being willing to work with the thugs from there that were also tremendous athletes.

Had a plan & the plan was .. bankroll the program with massive $$ and don't ask questions. My wife is a U of M grad and even back then, players took a huge pay cut if they got drafted into pro ball.

There is not a dirtier program in the NCAA.

[IMissJack]

Also, I believe Corso was right when he stated in 1999 That we were a top notch QB away from winning a national title. Who knows what kinda momentum could have been built had we been able to retain our offensive line the next year since two guys were lost to grades, and the upcoming NCAA investigation funded by TSUN hadn't had such a devastating effect.

IF we got Cam Newton, and AU did not, 2010 would have been interesting also.

[DancingRabbit]

I'd counter with, JJ's initial payroll was low because he hit a home run with all those draft picks that he didn't yet have to shell out a bunch of bucks for. Yes, as I said before, he gets props for using the numerous draft picks wisely. But later success was built on Jerry's open checkbook as well. Also, though Dallas had declined relative to their previous success, JJ still inherited a Dallas team that had finished 1st or 2nd in their division 20 of the past 24 years, 1st in 13 of those 24.



Well, I'll make one more post on this. You appear to have some bias, maybe pro HS, anti-Cowboy or something, since you're spinning facts and putting out misinformation.

Jimmy's advantages at Miami are similar to the advantages afforded any coach hired by a "traditional power school". After a couple of years if you're not doing a good job things will start going downhill. Jimmy won the NC at Miami in his 4th year. Safe to say he had hired good coaches, managed them well, and recruited and developed players well.

To say "later success was built on Jerry's open checkbook" is just flat wrong. He was at Dallas for 5 years and won Super Bowls in his 4th and 5th years. In 1992, his 4th year, the Dallas payroll was $25 million which ranked 17th out of 28 teams. San Francisco was #1 at $34 million.

And all that spin about Jimmy inheriting a Dallas team that had been #1 or #2 in the division for 20 out of 24 years. He inherited an old team that had gone 7–9 in 1986 , 7–8 in 1987, and 3–13 in 1988. I've been a Cowboys fan since 1967 and loved Tom Landry but it was painfully obvious that it was time to retire.

Enough ancient history for me. Peace.

[blacklistedbully]

Well, I'll make one more post on this. You appear to have some bias, maybe pro HS, anti-Cowboy or something, since you're spinning facts and putting out misinformation.

Jimmy's advantages at Miami are similar to the advantages afforded any coach hired by a "traditional power school". After a couple of years if you're not doing a good job things will start going downhill. Jimmy won the NC at Miami in his 4th year. Safe to say he had hired good coaches, managed them well, and recruited and developed players well.

To say "later success was built on Jerry's open checkbook" is just flat wrong. He was at Dallas for 5 years and won Super Bowls in his 4th and 5th years. In 1992, his 4th year, the Dallas payroll was $25 million which ranked 17th out of 28 teams. San Francisco was #1 at $34 million.

And all that spin about Jimmy inheriting a Dallas team that had been #1 or #2 in the division for 20 out of 24 years. He inherited an old team that had gone 7–9 in 1986 , 7–8 in 1987, and 3–13 in 1988. I've been a Cowboys fan since 1967 and loved Tom Landry but it was painfully obvious that it was time to retire.

Enough ancient history for me. Peace.

How unfortunate you couldn't keep what was a perfectly civil, reasonable debate the same, choosing instead to accuse me of bias and, "putting out misinformation".

I didn't spin a thing. I don't have an agenda, I have an opinion. Pretty sad you feel the need to make such accusations simply because another doesn't agree with your personal opinion.

FACT, not spin that Miami SUCKED until HS got there.
FACT, not spin that Miami won its first ever NC in 1983 under HS.
FACT, not spin that JJ took over a NC Miami in 1984 after having gone at Ok State 8-4, preceded by 4-5-2, preceded by 7-5, preceded by 3-7-1, preceded by 7-4.
FACT, not spin that the guy JJ replaced at Ok State had 4 winning seasons (including a 9-win season) and 2 losing seasons.
FACT, not spin that the guy who replaced JJ at Ok State had 5 straight winning seasons, including 10 wins in '87 and '88.
FACT, not spin the above 2 facts strongly suggest JJ was less than spectacular at Ok State, given the relative success of the guys just before and after him.
FACT, not spin that after CHS built Miami into a NC, the next 4 coaches at Miami had Top 5 teams and NC contenders or winners.
FACT, not spin that the above fact strongly suggests CJJ was not all that special compared to the 3 coaches that followed him.
FACT, not spin that CJJ parlayed his success at Miami and his personal friendship with Jerry Jones into the HC job at Dallas.
FACT, not spin that the Dallas did finish just as I said they did in their division. Yes, they did also have those last 3 years you mentioned, yet even at that, came in 2nd in 1987.

As I said before, I am not saying, nor have a said CJJ is a bad coach, or even a mediocre coach. I have said, and continue to say that, IMO he is perhaps the most overrated coach. I think there are any number of coaches that could have and would have done as well under the circumstances. That was certainly his track record at the only other HC jobs he had, Ok State and Miami.

Good, not great coach that was in-the-right-place-at-the-right time. Above average evaluator of talent who greatly benefited from having an obscene number of draft picks with which to work.

I do not know their actual payroll figures under CJJ, so can't challenge you on that one. Buy even if I give you that one, it doesn't trump all the rest.

BTW, I have no connection whatsoever to CHS, or CJJ. Only you appear to be the one with a real connection. Which of us is the more likely to bring bias into this discussion?

[DancingRabbit]

How unfortunate you couldn't keep what was a perfectly civil, reasonable debate the same, choosing instead to accuse me of bias and, "putting out misinformation".


Well damn, I apologize if I came across as uncivil. Wasn't my intention. Sure, I've been a Cowboys fan since I was a kid and I lived in Dallas for over 20 years. That doesn't make me biased for Jimmy Johnson and biased against Tom Landry. Maybe it just means I have some insight into the situation.

I still stand by my last post and here is a link to the payroll numbers.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-12-29/sports/1992364184_1_players-philadelphia-eagles-top-10/2

[blacklistedbully]

Well damn, I apologize if I came across as uncivil. Wasn't my intention. Sure, I've been a Cowboys fan since I was a kid and I lived in Dallas for over 20 years. That doesn't make me biased for Jimmy Johnson and biased against Tom Landry. Maybe it just means I have some insight into the situation.

I still stand by my last post and here is a link to the payroll numbers.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-12-29/sports/1992364184_1_players-philadelphia-eagles-top-10/2

Perhaps I overreacted. I've been known to do so from time-to-time. As I said, I'm happy to grant you the salary point. I still think the majority of available info supports my case, but in the end, it's a matter-of-opinion.

[Dawg61]

Perhaps I overreacted. I've been known to do so from time-to-time.

Shocker

[BossDawg]

Wait.........Colorado?! Dang. If they can surely State can, even if it was 25 years ago.

[scottycameron]

Wait.........Colorado?! Dang. If they can surely State can, even if it was 25 years ago.

CU was badass back then. They recruited out of state (of course) very well. Had some Louisiana players that were very good.
They will be back, book it. Great head coach, attractive school, some history. They legalized weed and that's going to help bigtime with in state talent from here on out, and also will help with recruiting out of state. Give them 3 or 4 years and they are back in the convo every year. Basketball should be in even better position but they never have done anything in basketball and I don't think they even care about it.

[ShotgunDawg]

CU was badass back then. They recruited out of state (of course) very well. Had some Louisiana players that were very good.
They will be back, book it. Great head coach, attractive school, some history. They legalized weed and that's going to help bigtime with in state talent from here on out, and also will help with recruiting out of state.

Colorado isn't coming back. They have no local recruiting ground, no Nike money, & not a large enough/caring fanbase to push the envelope.

[scottycameron]

Colorado isn't coming back. They have no local recruiting ground, no Nike money, & not a large enough/caring fanbase to push the envelope.

hide and watch. The demographic is RAPIDLY changing with weed legal now. A buddy was just out there and he said he thought he was in Memphis. My buddy Mike will get it rolling, absolutely no doubt. I'll put money on it.

[blacklistedbully]

Yeah, I'm sure Momma is going to be thrilled to have her son go play football at CU because he can legally smoke weed.**

I can see why some of the kids might like that, but I can just as easily see the ever-important, "Momma" saying uh-unh!

[scottycameron]

Yeah, I'm sure Momma is going to be thrilled to have her son go play football at CU because he can legally smoke weed.**

I can see why some of the kids might like that, but I can just as easily see the ever-important, "Momma" saying uh-unh!

You're missing the complete side of the in state factor. Colorado will soon become a pretty good recruiting ground. Not as strong as Miss or La. but much better than it was in the past. You're gonna be surprised with CU soon, I promise you. Lot of things going in the right direction right now.

[sandwolf]

hide and watch. The demographic is RAPIDLY changing with weed legal now. A buddy was just out there and he said he thought he was in Memphis. My buddy Mike will get it rolling, absolutely no doubt. I'll put money on it.

So you are saying that Colorado will soon be 'back' as a football program because the state legalized weed, which is going to cause huge numbers of black people to flock to the state, thereby giving them a recruiting advantage?

I really don't know of any way to put this gently, so I'm just going to say it.....you're an idiot.

[Johnson85]

So you are saying that Colorado will soon be 'back' as a football program because the state legalized weed, which is going to cause huge numbers of black people to flock to the state, thereby giving them a recruiting advantage?

I really don't know of any way to put this gently, so I'm just going to say it.....you're an idiot.

That was pretty gentle, all things considered. Also, I'm not sure the population of people that would choose where they want to live or go to school based on where there is legal weed overlaps a lot with the population of people that can have a positive impact on a college football program.

[BulldogBear]

So a bunch of pothead move to Colorado. Their kids will automatically be talented football players so Colorado will become a fertile recruiting ground because they changed the demographic. That makes perfect sense.******

[Dawg61]

So you are saying that Colorado will soon be 'back' as a football program because the state legalized weed, which is going to cause huge numbers of black people to flock to the state, thereby giving them a recruiting advantage?

I really don't know of any way to put this gently, so I'm just going to say it.....you're an idiot.

Next it'll be Alaska football. Weed is legal there too. Also legal in Washington, Oregon, California and about twenty other states.

Oh and Colorado will be dominate again because of all the hipsters that move there. The non-athletic new hippies that despise sports. Not because black people move there.**

[smootness]

Can a non-elite college football program win a national title?

Yes.