Jonathan Papelbon is the greatest player in MSU baseball history: discuss

[godlluB]

love him or hate him, and there are no shortage of both, but there is a distinct possibility that historians 20 years from now may consider Jonathan Papelbon the greatest professional athlete in MSU history (so far). Discuss/argue:

Go.

[DanDority]

Ever heard of Will "The Thrill" Clark?

[godlluB]

Yup, and Paps is arguably better. Hence, this thread.

[Todd4State]

If you are talking in terms of career at MSU only, it's definitely Clark, Palmeiro, or Brantley. If you are talking professionally speaking only, it's either Papelbon or Palmeiro.

IMO, I still am going to go with Palmeiro AT THIS POINT just because he has the 3000 hits and 500 home runs BUT Papelbon can still pass him and has a shot to do it. I still think he needs around 100-150 saves to be in the discussion. Saves and closers don't really have a defined bench mark for the HOF, but my guess is Papelbon needs to have at least as many as Trevor Hoffman to be in the discussion. If he can hang around long enough to pass Mariano Rivera, I think he's a lock.

[Alldawg]

Will Clark.......

[Tbonewannabe]

Palmeiro is one of like 5 in history to reach 3000 hits and 500 hrs. Without the steroids accusations, he was almost a shoe in for the HOF. Papelbon needs to play several more years on a team that gives him save chances. Paps has a chance though.

[gravedigger]

Nat showalter
Del bender
Rafael palmeiro
Will clark

[mstatefan91]

Palmeiro has my vote

[Smitty]

This is like those morons that said LeBron>MJ.

Will Clark is the most under valued player of the last 30 years.

[Dawg61]

This is like those morons that said LeBron>MJ.

Will Clark is the most under valued player of the last 30 years.


Paps 340 saves with a career 2.33 era is miles ahead of Clark's 284 HR and 2176 hits. Papelbon is on the verge of being a top 10 player of ALL-TIME at his position. You think Will Clark is a top ten all-time 1st baseman with 284 homeruns?

[JohnnyQuid]

Paps 340 saves with a career 2.33 era is miles ahead of Clark's 284 HR and 2176 hits. Papelbon is on the verge of being a top 10 player of ALL-TIME at his position. You think Will Clark is a top ten all-time 1st baseman with 284 homeruns?

have to agree.. and I love me some paps. and he reps MSU with pride.

[missouridawg]

Paps has a chance, but the answer currently is Palmeiro. 3000/500 club is about as elite as it gets.

[Jacksondevildog]

Palmeiro is the obvious choice here. As Missouri said, 3000/500 is about as elite of a club as you can be in.

[Smitty]

Clark - 52 WAR

Paps- 19 WAR

Get out of here with a damn relief pitcher. If he pitched the exact same in the 8th as the 9th nobody would say anything. Saves are dumb. It's not a stat, but an arbitrary circumstance. Paps has been a pretty good 9th inning RP. Will Clark was dominant in his prime. Raffy has an asterisk.

Will Clark is the greatest baseball player MSU has ever produced.

[Rayburn8]

This is like those morons that said LeBron>MJ.

Will Clark is the most under valued player of the last 30 years.

We never said Lebron>MJ. We said that MJ was no longer Undisputed GOAT, just that there was an argument now. But naturally you misinterpreted everything.

[dawgoneyall]

LOL

[Leroy Jenkins]

IMO everyday players get the nod over pitchers... especially relief pitchers. Thats just a bias I have.

[Tbonewannabe]

Will Clark in his "prime", it is not really a debate but he wasn't in his prime as long as Raffy and Paps. Will was best at his position for several years which Raffy wasn't but Raffy put up HOF numbers over his career which Will did not.

[Cabo32]

Rafael palmeiro...3000/500 club. By far the best to come out of msu. Couldn't care less about the steroid use...it actually made baseball fun to watch

[AlSwearengen]

I'm
If you are talking in terms of career at MSU only, it's definitely Clark, Palmeiro, or Brantley. If you are talking professionally speaking only, it's either Papelbon or Palmeiro.

IMO, I still am going to go with Palmeiro AT THIS POINT just because he has the 3000 hits and 500 home runs BUT Papelbon can still pass him and has a shot to do it. I still think he needs around 100-150 saves to be in the discussion. Saves and closers don't really have a defined bench mark for the HOF, but my guess is Papelbon needs to have at least as many as Trevor Hoffman to be in the discussion. If he can hang around long enough to pass Mariano Rivera, I think he's a lock.

I agree with this. I would like to have seen what Clark would have done had he not had that elbow injury though. He seemed to be a different hitter after he got hurt. I don't know if it was coincidence or what, but he never showed the power again.

[5 Star]

LOL

Best answer of the thread.

[blacklistedbully]

Paps 340 saves with a career 2.33 era is miles ahead of Clark's 284 HR and 2176 hits. Papelbon is on the verge of being a top 10 player of ALL-TIME at his position. You think Will Clark is a top ten all-time 1st baseman with 284 homeruns?

Clark is a guy who played clean in an era of rampant steroid use by those he competed with and against. His stats are even more impressive, considering. Also, Clark could have played longer if he'd wanted to. He went out on a high-note.

[Dawg61]

Clark is a guy who played clean in an era of rampant steroid use by those he competed with and against. His stats are even more impressive, considering. Also, Clark could have played longer if he'd wanted to. He went out on a high-note.

Define "clean" cause I'm having a hard time believing Clark never once took a painkiller or amphetamine or tried cocaine during the 80's.

[blacklistedbully]

Define "clean" cause I'm having a hard time believing Clark never once took a painkiller or amphetamine or tried cocaine during the 80's.

Every interview I've seen of his and former teammates indicate he was not only not a user, but vehemently against he. He has credited his father with teaching him to, "do it the right way by out-working the competition".

But yeah, if it doesn't fit your agenda, just go ahead and insinuate he used drugs without a hint of a suggestion from anyone that he did.

What a jackass.

[mstatefan91]

You are allowed to insinuate someone did something when there is some kind of indication that said person did it. Either from witnesses, outrageous behavior, or arrest record. You can't insinuate someone did something due to the era or to suit an agenda.

Come on man

[dawgs]

Will Clark in his "prime", it is not really a debate but he wasn't in his prime as long as Raffy and Paps. Will was best at his position for several years which Raffy wasn't but Raffy put up HOF numbers over his career which Will did not.

I wonder why palmeiro's prime was much longer than clark's...

[dawgs]

And yes, everyday player >>>> a good relief pitcher.

[Dawg61]

Every interview I've seen of his and former teammates indicate he was not only not a user, but vehemently against he. He has credited his father with teaching him to, "do it the right way by out-working the competition".

But yeah, if it doesn't fit your agenda, just go ahead and insinuate he used drugs without a hint of a suggestion from anyone that he did.

What a jackass.

Will Clark is notorious for being one of the biggest assholes and bullies in baseball. I believe he never tried any drug like I believe you add value to this board.

[mstatefan91]

Will Clark is notorious for being one of the biggest assholes and bullies in baseball. I believe he never tried any drug like I believe you add value to this board.

Sour grapes

[Dawg61]

You are allowed to insinuate someone did something when there is some kind of indication that said person did it. Either from witnesses, outrageous behavior, or arrest record. You can't insinuate someone did something due to the era or to suit an agenda.

Come on man

I believe Clark never shot himself in the ass with steroids. I don't believe Clark never tried other substances though.

[Dawg61]

Sour grapes

Nah Clark was my favorite player growing up. I just don't believe he's Mother Teresa cause he says he is.

[Dawg61]

Clark - 52 WAR

Paps- 19 WAR

Get out of here with a damn relief pitcher. If he pitched the exact same in the 8th as the 9th nobody would say anything. Saves are dumb. It's not a stat, but an arbitrary circumstance. Paps has been a pretty good 9th inning RP. Will Clark was dominant in his prime. Raffy has an asterisk.

Will Clark is the greatest baseball player MSU has ever produced.

Will Clark is better than Mariano Rivera in your damaged brain.

[mstatefan91]

Nah Clark was my favorite player growing up. I just don't believe he's Mother Teresa cause he says he is.

You have no proof otherwise is the point.

[dawgs]

Will Clark is notorious for being one of the biggest assholes and bullies in baseball. I believe he never tried any drug like I believe you add value to this board.

Being an asshole has nothing to do with someone doing roids or not.

[dawgs]

Will Clark is better than Mariano Rivera in your damaged brain.

An everyday player is more valuable than a specialist reliever.

[Dawg61]

Being an asshole has nothing to do with someone doing roids or not.

Where did I say he took steroids? It's the other drugs I don't believe he never once tried. It's the ****ing eighties and Will Clark is the biggest man on campus. You're damn right I think he tried pain pills and cocaine while nailing three sorority chicks daily. Probably drank 12 Budweisers before lunch too. Gtfo of here with the Clark never tried anything BS.

[mstatefan91]

Where did I say he took steroids? It's the other drugs I don't believe he never once tried. It's the ****ing eighties and Will Clark is the biggest man on campus. You're damn right I think he tried pain pills and cocaine while nailing three sorority chicks daily. Probably drank 12 Budweisers before lunch too. Gtfo of here with the Clark never tried anything BS.

Sigh. You never do learn. You have ZERO proof. You are just making yourself out to be a jackass.

[fader2103]

I don't believe Clark used anything illegal. But I wouldn't say he is the best MSU ever produced. I think raffy is the best product.

[drunkernhelldawg]

This is like those morons that said LeBron>MJ.

Will Clark is the most under valued player of the last 30 years.

I agree regarding the MSU years. Palmeiro and Thigpen made their marks, but Clark was the juice.

My sister went out with him once. I asked her why she let him loose. She said it was that athletic smell. "BO to the max" is the way she put it.

Paps or Raffy easily have the best pro careers. I hate what happened to Raffy's rep.

[Dawg61]

An everyday player is more valuable than a specialist reliever.

Lol over the course of an entire season yes but you don't ask Will Clark to carry the burden of securing the three final outs so your team can get a win do you? No you ask the closer to save your bacon.

[mstatefan91]

Lol over the course of an entire season yes but you don't ask Will Clark to carry the burden of securing the three final outs so your team can get a win do you? No you ask the closer to save your bacon.

No, you ask Thigpen :p

[Dawg61]

Sigh. You never do learn. You have ZERO proof. You are just making yourself out to be a jackass.

I don't need to eat the shit to know it's shit. Maybe you do.

[mstatefan91]

I don't need to eat the shit to know it's shit. Maybe you do.

In this case, you don't have a smell, sight, or feel of shit either, but you still claim shit. Maybe you just have screwed up senses.

[DancingRabbit]

I think Raffy was stupid to take a B12 shot from Miguel Tejada, but I believe him when he says he never knowingly used steroids.

He never had another positive test including 3 weeks after the positive test.

And as Raffy said at the time, "Why would I do this in a year when I went in front of Congress and I testified and I told the truth?" he said. "Why would I do
this during a season where I was going to get to 3,000 hits? It just makes no sense. I'm not a crazy person."

And, I think that if it was true he would have since admitted it and ask for forgiveness from the fans.

[mstatefan91]

Your entire claim comes from him being a "bully" and playing in the 80's. If you can't see how ridiculous that is then God bless you.

[Dawg61]

Your entire claim comes from him being a "bully" and playing in the 80's. If you can't see how ridiculous that is then God bless you.

You forgot the alcohol

[Coach34]

I believe Palmeiro used steroids for multiple years- and he was the best player State produced because of it. 3K/500 is bigtime

[mstatefan91]

http://m.memegen.com/6ywwzf.jpg

[blacklistedbully]

Will Clark is notorious for being one of the biggest assholes and bullies in baseball. I believe he never tried any drug like I believe you add value to this board.

Dig the hole deeper, moron. Getting a nice chuckle watching you self-destruct in this thread.

A) Playing, "clean" is known to mean he didn't take performance-enhancing drugs to help his career. I suspect you know this and are just being the usual dickhead you are.

B) Being an, "asshole" or, "bully" has nothing to do with it.

C) I have not heard he was either in baseball, and I lived in the SF Bay Area his entire time in baseball. Only one player or former player said negative stuff about Will, and it was Jeffrey Leonard, a trouble-maker himself. He got in a fight with Will and called Clark a racist because Clark refused to sign an autograph for a buddy of Leonard's when Leonard, "ordered" him to, after Leonard had been a huge dick to him all year. Leonard had been, "The guy" until Clark came along.

The fact that every other black player on the team, including good friend Kevin Mitchell loved him says more about Will being a stand-up guy,and Leonard being a liar. But as we know with low-lifes who have no trouble smearing people with false-accusations, once the, "race-card" is played, it almost always hangs about the accused's neck like an Albatross.

The fact that the guys on that team who were considered, "good guys" as well as good players always said great things about Will is also telling.

D) Nobody said Will was, "Mother Theresa"...not Will and not me. But again, it's just you, unable to bend the facts to support your dumbass stance, so you introduce some, "facts (lies)" of your own. Yep, if you can't win an argument with wit and reason, just distort the facts, and/or rail against a point that your opposition never made.

Weak, pathetic troll attempt.

[Dawg61]

Dig the hole deeper, moron. Getting a nice chuckle watching you self-destruct in this thread.

A) Playing, "clean" is known to mean he didn't take performance-enhancing drugs to help his career. I suspect you know this and are just being the usual dickhead you are.

B) Being an, "asshole" or, "bully" has nothing to do with it.

C) I have not heard he was either in baseball, and I lived in the SF Bay Area his entire time in baseball. Only one player or former player said negative stuff about Will, and it was Jeffrey Leonard, a trouble-maker himself. He got in a fight with Will and called Clark a racist because Clark refused to sign an autograph for a buddy of Leonard's when Leonard, "ordered" him to, after Leonard had been a huge dick to him all year. Leonard had been, "The guy" until Clark came along.

The fact that every other black player on the team, including good friend Kevin Mitchell loved him says more about Will being a stand-up guy,and Leonard being a liar. But as we know with low-lifes who have no trouble smearing people with false-accusations, once the, "race-card" is played, it almost always hangs about the accused's neck like an Albatross.

The fact that the guys on that team who were considered, "good guys" as well as good players always said great things about Will is also telling.

D) Nobody said Will was, "Mother Theresa"...not Will and not me. But again, it's just you, unable to bend the facts to support your dumbass stance, so you introduce some, "facts (lies)" of your own. Yep, if you can't win an argument with wit and reason, just distort the facts, and/or rail against a point that your opposition never made.

Weak, pathetic troll attempt.


Look at brownlisted flying off at the handle once again. Go beat your pillow tough guy. Palmeiro left Clark in the dust twenty years ago and Papelbon will finish as a top ten closer all-time.

[blacklistedbully]

Look at brownlisted flying off at the handle once again. Go beat your pillow tough guy. Palmeiro left Clark in the dust twenty years ago and Papelbon will finish as a top ten closer all-time.

Ah, so when I call you out on your BS, point out just how wrong you are...in your mind that's me, "flying off the handle once again"?

Oh, the irony, only made the funnier by the fact that I didn't actually state a position on the OT other than that Clark's feats were accomplished versus a stacked deck, making them all the more impressive.

No surprise you come off looking, yet again, like a giant asshole, out-of-your-depth. Why don't you run back to the kiddie-pool before you drown yourself, junior? Better yet, keep posting. Kinda fun watching your train-wreck.

[Dawg61]

Can you bump some of your fascinating 3 month old threads for us juniors please grandpa? You always have the best threads on here. Or can you tell us what the damn Bears are saying on other boards more please.

[blacklistedbully]

Can you bump some of your fascinating 3 month old threads for us juniors please grandpa? You always have the best threads on here. Or can you tell us what the damn Bears are saying on other boards more please.

You are the gift that keeps on giving, totally oblivious to what an ass you are making of yourself. What's next? You gonna accuse me of snorting coke, drinking excessively, etc?? Please stop. Even I'm getting embarrassed for you.

ETA - Just did a quick check on threads I started that were about what Bears were saying on another board. Last time was 2/4, almost 1/2 year ago, but hey, don't start letting facts get in your way now, loser. We all know it's not your style.

[Todd4State]

Dig the hole deeper, moron. Getting a nice chuckle watching you self-destruct in this thread.

A) Playing, "clean" is known to mean he didn't take performance-enhancing drugs to help his career. I suspect you know this and are just being the usual dickhead you are.

B) Being an, "asshole" or, "bully" has nothing to do with it.

C) I have not heard he was either in baseball, and I lived in the SF Bay Area his entire time in baseball. Only one player or former player said negative stuff about Will, and it was Jeffrey Leonard, a trouble-maker himself. He got in a fight with Will and called Clark a racist because Clark refused to sign an autograph for a buddy of Leonard's when Leonard, "ordered" him to, after Leonard had been a huge dick to him all year. Leonard had been, "The guy" until Clark came along.

The fact that every other black player on the team, including good friend Kevin Mitchell loved him says more about Will being a stand-up guy,and Leonard being a liar. But as we know with low-lifes who have no trouble smearing people with false-accusations, once the, "race-card" is played, it almost always hangs about the accused's neck like an Albatross.

The fact that the guys on that team who were considered, "good guys" as well as good players always said great things about Will is also telling.

D) Nobody said Will was, "Mother Theresa"...not Will and not me. But again, it's just you, unable to bend the facts to support your dumbass stance, so you introduce some, "facts (lies)" of your own. Yep, if you can't win an argument with wit and reason, just distort the facts, and/or rail against a point that your opposition never made.

Weak, pathetic troll attempt.

I can vouche for Leonard being a douchebag.

I've also met Clark and he was pretty cool to me FWIW.

[mstatefan91]

I can vouche for Leonard being a douchebag.

I've also met Clark and he was pretty cool to me FWIW.

This is just Dawg61. Par for the course. I'm sure you realize that lol

[dawgs]

Clark is definitely one of those guys you love when he's on your side, and probably hate when he's on the other side.

[Dawg61]

This is just Dawg61. Par for the course. I'm sure you realize that lol

It's well documented that Will Clark is an asshole. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said a thousand times already. Great baseball player yes. Great competitor yes. Teammate you want in your foxhole yes. Asshole yes. General Patton is someone you absolutely want on your side but Patton is or was an asshole. Same thing for Will Clark. He's one of my most favorite baseball players ever. I am a Giants fan and a MSU alum. How could I not love Clark but that doesn't change the fact that he's an asshole. If you don't know that about him I think you're either too young to know or you're not really a baseball fan just more of a casual fan and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Todd4State]

It's well documented that Will Clark is an asshole. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said a thousand times already. Great baseball player yes. Great competitor yes. Teammate you want in your foxhole yes. Asshole yes. General Patton is someone you absolutely want on your side but Patton is or was an asshole. Same thing for Will Clark. He's one of my most favorite baseball players ever. I am a Giants fan and a MSU alum. How could I not love Clark but that doesn't change the fact that he's an asshole. If you don't know that about him I think you're either too young to know or you're not really a baseball fan just more of a casual fan and there's nothing wrong with that.

I think Will Clark is ultra competitive and also Cajun- and therefore speaks his mind- and that rubs some people the wrong way. And he's probably misunderstood sometimes because of that.

[mstatefan91]

It's well documented that Will Clark is an asshole. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said a thousand times already. Great baseball player yes. Great competitor yes. Teammate you want in your foxhole yes. Asshole yes. General Patton is someone you absolutely want on your side but Patton is or was an asshole. Same thing for Will Clark. He's one of my most favorite baseball players ever. I am a Giants fan and a MSU alum. How could I not love Clark but that doesn't change the fact that he's an asshole. If you don't know that about him I think you're either too young to know or you're not really a baseball fan just more of a casual fan and there's nothing wrong with that.

Are you really trying to spin the argument? Just wow dude. This argument was never about Clark being an ass hole or not. It was about you claiming that he did drugs.

You're a troll or a moron. Either way, done with this bullshit.

[Dawg61]

Are you really trying to spin the argument? Just wow dude. This argument was never about Clark being an ass hole or not. It was about you claiming that he did drugs.

You're a troll or a moron. Either way, done with this bullshit.

He shows all the signs. Quit having a freak out cause it's my belief that Clark isn't as clean as he says he is. That's my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

[Bullsy]

3 pages of posts on who is the best MSU player all time and still no mention of Wes Rea*****

[mstatefan91]

He shows all the signs. Quit having a freak out cause it's my belief that Clark isn't as clean as he says he is. That's my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

Confirmed