Cws

[Homedawg]

Not one but 2, 1-0 games in the cws. You need to be able to hit, sure, but damn well better be able to pitch.

[msstate7]

Unfortunately for us, we can't do either

[messageboardsuperhero]

Unfortunately for us, we can't do either

We will pitch much better next spring.

[I seen it dawg]

If you're loaded with pitching in college you can win big. I wasn't near as pissed with the offense this year as the pitching or lack thereof. No ****ing excuse for the trash Butch threw out there. Again I say..get your ****ing shit together Butch.

[dawgs]

There's also 2 games where the winner scored double digit runs. Fix our hitting and the pitching can give up 7-8 runs and we'll still win if we can score.

*yes I know it's ridiculous to advocate giving up 7-8 runs, but IMO it's not less ridiculous than saying small ball is the best kinda offense if you have good pitching like trying to win 3-2 with minimal margin of error is advisable*

[Really Clark?]

My stance is pitching and defense wins championships the majority of the time. Defense usually travels better than offense. Not to say a great hitting team can't do it with average pitching but a lot of those teams also got good pitching late to help push them over. Because let's face it we have seen at any given point a pitcher who is in the zone negate at hitting team even if he is on a bad team. That is the one position that on a given day, that team is great because of great pitching. But more to the point you need really good pitching depth and solid bullpen. At some point you will need that pen to step in and deliver. Teams that have that depth can outlast a lot of teams.

ETA. I am a guy who has spent the majority of his time on hitting side of the sport.

[Homedawg]

There's also 2 games where the winner scored double digit runs. Fix our hitting and the pitching can give up 7-8 runs and we'll still win if we can score.

*yes I know it's ridiculous to advocate giving up 7-8 runs, but IMO it's not less ridiculous than saying small ball is the best kinda offense if you have good pitching like trying to win 3-2 with minimal margin of error is advisable*

Yep and in both cases of the team had scored 4 they still would have won. Like I said, better be able to pitch.

[I seen it dawg]

There's also 2 games where the winner scored double digit runs. Fix our hitting and the pitching can give up 7-8 runs and we'll still win if we can score.

*yes I know it's ridiculous to advocate giving up 7-8 runs, but IMO it's not less ridiculous than saying small ball is the best kinda offense if you have good pitching like trying to win 3-2 with minimal margin of error is advisable*

You're the only one talking about small ball in this thread.

[Todd4State]

There's also 2 games where the winner scored double digit runs. Fix our hitting and the pitching can give up 7-8 runs and we'll still win if we can score.

*yes I know it's ridiculous to advocate giving up 7-8 runs, but IMO it's not less ridiculous than saying small ball is the best kinda offense if you have good pitching like trying to win 3-2 with minimal margin of error is advisable*

The thing is you can rely on a pitcher more than you can an offense scoring that many runs off of a good pitcher. It's simple math really. Pitchers win over 70% of the battles. Hitters win about 30% of the battles.

[dawgs]

The thing is you can rely on a pitcher more than you can an offense scoring that many runs off of a good pitcher. It's simple math really. Pitchers win over 70% of the battles. Hitters win about 30% of the battles.

imo that makes a hitter that can win 35% of the battles far more valuable.

[Todd4State]

imo that makes a hitter that can win 35% of the battles far more valuable.

You don't understand how it works.

You absolutely HAVE TO be able to stop the other team on offense and match the other teams pitcher and allow your team a chance to score runs. You can not rely on winning slugfests every night and baseball and expect to win a championship. A bad hitting team with an elite ace pitcher is more than likely going to beat a great hitting team with a below average pitcher.

[Tbonewannabe]

Seems like a hitter that can hit a HR would be more important since 1 hit could win the game.

[Really Clark?]

imo that makes a hitter that can win 35% of the battles far more valuable.

One hitter hitting .400, as phenomenal as that is, is just one guy. If he comes up in the right situations I don't ever have to let him swing the bat. Great pitching that has negated the other 8 hitters can pitch around the one great hitter. And he doesn't make a team a great hitting club by himself. He is valuable but one great hitter won't win you as many games as a one dominate pitcher.

[Really Clark?]

Seems like a hitter that can hit a HR would be more important since 1 hit could win the game.

Why are you assuming the defense gives him something to hit? A great pitching preformance can negate an entire offense. Even one great hitter.

You guys are looking at this all wrong. A great offense doesn't have to have one superstar phenomenal hitter. It doesn't hurt but a great offense is one who collectively can hit for avg, some power, but absolutely the most important part is clutch hitting. That is what makes a great offense. Not one guy. Conversely on any given night one guy, the pitcher, who is in the zone can negate that offense and win 75% or more of the battles he had that night.

[Really Clark?]

Seems like a hitter that can hit a HR would be more important since 1 hit could win the game.

Why are you assuming the defense gives him something to hit? A great pitching preformance can negate an entire offense. Even one great hitter.

You guys are looking at this all wrong. A great offense doesn't have to have one superstar phenomenal hitter. It doesn't hurt but a great offense is one who collectively can hit for avg, some power, but absolutely the most important part is clutch hitting. That is what makes a great offense. Not one guy. Conversely on any given night one guy, the pitcher, who is in the zone can negate that offense and win 75% or more of the battles he had that night.

Eta. Look at how many pitchers were drafted in top rounds last week and tell me what position is considered the most important.

[msstate7]

I think this argument is crazy. You've gotta have pitching AND hitting to get to the cws. Picks 1, 2, and 20 were positional players that are still playing. When we made championship series, we had a 1st round positional player. Having a big time bat makes your whole lineup better

[KB21]

I think this argument is crazy. You've gotta have pitching AND hitting to get to the cws. Picks 1, 2, and 20 were positional players that are still playing. When we made championship series, we had a 1st round positional player. Having a big time bat makes your whole lineup better

This.

I also believe the criticism of Butch Thompson is unwarranted considering that he has fielded some of the best team ERAs in the country in the previous 3 seasons.

I do lean towards putting more of an emphasis on pitching though, and when you look at that championship series vs UCLA, we got beat by their pitching. Our guys couldn't lay off the high fast ball.

[KB21]

One thing I think people need to understand. The days of "Gorilla Ball" are over. The BBCOR standards on the bats buried that style. I'm glad too, because that style of play was never about the skill of the player, but more about what kind of trampoline effect you could get on the bats.

I would also add that most of the power hitters in college baseball have to be developed. The legitimate power guys out of high school mostly end up playing pro ball.

[msstate7]

One thing I think people need to understand. The days of "Gorilla Ball" are over. The BBCOR standards on the bats buried that style. I'm glad too, because that style of play was never about the skill of the player, but more about what kind of trampoline effect you could get on the bats.

I would also add that most of the power hitters in college baseball have to be developed. The legitimate power guys out of high school mostly end up playing pro ball.

We're about to see how well Cohen can develop power. Barring injury, there's no reason we shouldn't see a significant rise in hr's or at least doubles for Collins and hump

[Really Clark?]

I think this argument is crazy. You've gotta have pitching AND hitting to get to the cws. Picks 1, 2, and 20 were positional players that are still playing. When we made championship series, we had a 1st round positional player. Having a big time bat makes your whole lineup better

Yes you need both but you know as well as I do that dominate pitching wins championships more so than a great offense. From MLB (while may have drafted great college position players the vast majority of top picks were pitchers) on down to little league. Strong pitching negates a strong offense. Not saying you don't try to have both.

[shoeless joe]

This is absurd!!

Good pitching beats good hitting...period. Give me 2 studs on the mound and I'll ride those arms all the way to Omaha, and prolly much further. If anyone legitimately thinks that a good offense with a 5+ ERA pitching staff is a path to a championship then they are either stupid or are completely out of touch with the reality of the sport.

[msstate7]

This is absurd!!

Good pitching beats good hitting...period. Give me 2 studs on the mound and I'll ride those arms all the way to Omaha, and prolly much further. If anyone legitimately thinks that a good offense with a 5+ ERA pitching staff is a path to a championship then they are either stupid or are completely out of touch with the reality of the sport.

You think you can surround 2 stud pitchers with our lineup and bullpen this year and go to Omaha?

[engie]

Teams in Omaha this year:
Pitching(ERA):
2 TCU
10 Cal St. Fullerton
11 LSU
13 Vanderbilt
27 Florida
28 Miami (FL)
55 Virginia
104 Arkansas
Average - #31.25

Hitting(BA):
4 LSU
7 Miami (FL)
26 Florida
50 Vanderbilt
65 Arkansas
74 TCU
150 Virginia
211 Cal St. Fullerton
Average - #73.37

It paints a pretty clear picture of which is more important.

[engie]

You think you can surround 2 stud pitchers with our lineup and bullpen this year and go to Omaha?

Yes.

[msstate7]

Yes.

Maybe if Houston, Reynolds, and Hudson started the year like they finished it. I say, false

I take that back. If Cohen abused college pitchers like most college coaches, we might have. Those 2 studs, better be complete game studs though bc our pen was garbage. They couldn't hold a 5-run lead against our rival in the 9th. How many other late collapses were there?

When ucla rode their pitching to a natty, it was more than 2 starters

[engie]

When ucla rode their pitching to a natty, it was more than 2 starters

It was 2 elite starters and an elite closer. Those 3 guys threw 60% of their total innings on the year and nearly every inning while in Omaha. It's a myth that it takes pitching depth to win while in Omaha. The only time in postseason baseball where pitching depth is really key is a situation where you fall into the loser's bracket of a regional. It plays in the SEC tourney, but it's not like that matters much one way or another. UCLA had an average 3rd starter and a bad midweek guy. And 2 pretty good middle relievers that threw about 40 innings each.

For reference, their closer threw about as many innings that year as Austin Sexton threw for us this year. UCLA is as distinct as any case ever of riding 3 arms to a title.

And also, your comment was "take 2 elite starters and surround them with our pen and bats" -- which already makes the assumption that two of them improved to elite status. If we have 2 Strattonesque jr arms -- we are probably going to host and have a great chance to be CWS bound.

[msstate7]

It was 2 elite starters and an elite closer. Those 3 guys threw 60% of their total innings on the year and nearly every inning while in Omaha. It's a myth that it takes pitching depth to win while in Omaha. The only time in postseason baseball where pitching depth is really key is a situation where you fall into the loser's bracket of a regional IMO. It plays in the SEC tourney, but it's not like that matters much one way or another. The CWS is too spaced out these days for depth to really factor. UCLA had an average 3rd starter and a bad midweek guy. And 2 pretty good middle relievers that threw about 40 innings each.

For reference, their closer threw as many innings that year as Austin Sexton threw for us this year...

So, I guess it takes more than 2 starters, huh?

[engie]

So, I guess it takes more than 2 starters, huh?

"2 stud pitchers surrounded by our bullpen" is more than 2 starters as well, huh?

No one anywhere in this thread said "it only takes 2 starters to go to Omaha". You were talking about adding 2 stud starters to what we have otherwise. You add 2 Strattons to what we otherwise have -- I'll book my room in Omaha right now.

[msstate7]

"2 stud pitchers surrounded by our bullpen" is more than 2 starters as well, huh?

Quit changing your argument. No one anywhere in this thread said "it only takes 2 starters to go to Omaha".

I thought my argument was that we need more than 2 stud starters... Oh well, I'm just arguing to be arguing at this point. Hurry up football... This place is D E A D

[Really Clark?]

I thought my argument was that we need more than 2 stud starters... Oh well, I'm just arguing to be arguing at this point. Hurry up football... This place is D E A D

Well according to certain posters, it is all to easy at this level to hit even stud pitchers who have good stuff. So maybe offense is the only way to go. Just can't figure out why the majority of the time it's the teams with pitching that win more.***

[shoeless joe]

You think you can surround 2 stud pitchers with our lineup and bullpen this year and go to Omaha?

Yes.

Two guys that go 7+ every weekend takes a huge toll off the pen and they would have been better.

[msstate7]

Yes.

Two guys that go 7+ every weekend takes a huge toll off the pen and they would have been better.

Maybe so. I just think we were a few pieces away even with 2 studs:

1. Good defensive catcher
2. Closer
3. 3b that can play defense

[msstate7]

Couldn't you argue that we had 2 stud starters (Stratton and graveman in '12) and didn't make it out of regional?

[engie]

Couldn't you argue that we had 2 stud starters (Stratton and graveman in '12) and didn't make it out of regional?

Graveman was not what I would call a stud in 2012, and even as such, we had the second best pitching staff in the country in 2012. That was a terrible hitting team notably worse across the board than our current team and that, along with getting shipped to one of the least pitcher-friendly parks in the country, was what prevented our advancement.

8 of the top 10 pitching teams in the country this year did not make it to Omaha. That doesn't even remotely mean that hitting is more important than pitching. 7 of the 8 were at least borderline elite pitching staffs. 4 of the 8 were borderline elite hitting teams.

[shoeless joe]

Couldn't you argue that we had 2 stud starters (Stratton and graveman in '12) and didn't make it out of regional?

Graveman is one of my all time favorite dawgs. He was a battler and I love his stuff and how he used...said multiple times on here that his stuff would translate great to the pro game...BUT he was not a stud at the college level IMO.

To change it up slightly even, think about if we'd had lindgren and holder this year with everything else being equal. Those guys in the pen with the same rotation most likely get us to a regional.

[Tbonewannabe]

Hunter Renfroe hit a HR to put us in the title game.

[msstate7]

Graveman is one of my all time favorite dawgs. He was a battler and I love his stuff and how he used...said multiple times on here that his stuff would translate great to the pro game...BUT he was not a stud at the college level IMO.

To change it up slightly even, think about if we'd had lindgren and holder this year with everything else being equal. Those guys in the pen with the same rotation most likely get us to a regional.

A regional and cws are 2 entirely different things. I do think those 2 get us to a regional though

[Tbonewannabe]

Looks like you have a minimum of quality pitching to get there but also hitting. Unless you have 2 Elite pitchers and an elite closer you have to have the bats.

UCLA won the title but had 2 all American starters. We have had 1 in the 7 years Cohen has been here, Stratton.

We cobbled together an elite pitching staff in 2013 but replace Renfroe and Frazier with our usual and we might not make it to Omaha.

[engie]

Maybe so. I just think we were a few pieces away even with 2 studs:

1. Good defensive catcher
2. Closer
3. 3b that can play defense

On this:
1. Lovelady is elite back there. We've got to see improvement at the plate. Wouldn't be shocked to see Marrero factor here either. Marrero most likely isn't a "normal" freshman situation given his upbringing...
2. I think 3 of the 5 in the Cape step up next year. At least. None have shown a closer mentality yet to me though. So, this is a notable concern. But it hasn't been all that long ago that Holder was elite in this role for us as a freshman. So, there is precedence there for it to happen under this staff. We've got a number of freshmen with the stuff to fill this role. Will they have the mental side? Yet to be seen...
3. Hard to consider this an absolute must when we went to Omaha last time with Sam Frost and Alex Detz over there. I think Reynolds is better than both of those defensively now, while certainly not elite...

[engie]

25% of the field in Omaha is made up of literally below average hitting teams. One that is way below average.

[Really Clark?]

Hunter Renfroe hit a HR to put us in the title game.

Our pitching held the Pac-12 champions to 1 run. And we were already up 1-0 when Renfroe hit the hr.

[msstate7]

On this:
1. Lovelady is elite back there. We've got to see improvement at the plate. Wouldn't be shocked to see Marrero factor here either. Marrero most likely isn't a "normal" freshman situation given his upbringing...
2. I think 3 of the 5 in the Cape step up next year. At least. None have shown a closer mentality yet to me though. So, this is a notable concern. But it hasn't been all that long ago that Holder was elite in this role for us as a freshman. So, there is precedence there for it to happen under this staff. We've got a number of freshmen with the stuff to fill this role. Will they have the mental side? Yet to be seen...
3. Hard to consider this an absolute must when we went to Omaha last time with Sam Frost and Alex Detz over there. I think Reynolds is better than both of those defensively now, while certainly not elite...

I like lovelady too. I think it was a huge mistake to bench him. Collins just isn't good enough defensively imo. Collins' bat is a must though

[msstate7]

Our pitching held the Pac-12 champions to 1 run. And we were already up 1-0 when Renfroe hit the hr.

We were a lot better defensively up the middle in '13 which is very important if you want to win with pitching. Adam ripping the ball didn't hurt either

[Really Clark?]

We were a lot better defensively up the middle in '13 which is very important if you want to win with pitching. Adam ripping the ball didn't hurt either

Sure. I mentioned pitching and defense in the same sentence earlier in this thread. But on any given day a pitcher who is outstanding on that day can control the game for a victory more than any other player. And if he is dominate even weak offenses and defenses can look good.

[Tbonewannabe]

Our pitching held the Pac-12 champions to 1 run. And we were already up 1-0 when Renfroe hit the hr.

We also were 3 feet from losing. If the Oregon state guy hit it 10 feet towards RF we lose that game.

[AROB44]

If a frog had wings..........

[maroonmania]

We also were 3 feet from losing. If the Oregon state guy hit it 10 feet towards RF we lose that game.

With the new ball being used today that would have been a HR hit where it was. We were just very fortunate to get where we did in 2013 with only one good starter. Even after making the CWS championship round with no losses in the sub-bracket we ended up having to start Pollo in championship game #1. And no offense to Pollo because he gave all he had and did some good things for us, but that is NOT the kind of talent in a pitcher you want starting out a national championship series.

[Really Clark?]

We also were 3 feet from losing. If the Oregon state guy hit it 10 feet towards RF we lose that game.

And if.....the fact is our PITCHING and defense held them. A pitch in a little worse location maybe it does go out but it didn't and in two games we held them to 5 total runs. The "if" game doesn't work.

[Tbonewannabe]

I don't understand why everyone seems to assume you can't have both great pitching and hitting.

Hopefully Humphries comes back ready to tear the cover off and Robson figures out when to drag bunt and when to actually swing.

It is like when people say in football Defense wins championships. It does as long as your offense can at least be competent. Our problem last year was the offense was built to hit singles and bunt but we then didn't steal bases. We put the fastest player possibly in the country behind the slowest. Our offense was a contradiction of styles. We had a bunch of singles hitters but didn't try to be aggressive on the base path unless it was waving someone home when he is out by a mile.
Last year was probably the most frustrating offense to watch. We would regularly have someone in the zone and then ask them to bunt 2 straight trips. It was like no one was ever allowed to find a rhythm.

[Tbonewannabe]

I would say our clutch hitting was as much to do with our run as pitching. Hell Demarcus Henderson had more clutch hits that year than probably our entire team last year.

[Really Clark?]

I don't understand why everyone seems to assume you can't have both great pitching and hitting.

Hopefully Humphries comes back ready to tear the cover off and Robson figures out when to drag bunt and when to actually swing.

It is like when people say in football Defense wins championships. It does as long as your offense can at least be competent. Our problem last year was the offense was built to hit singles and bunt but we then didn't steal bases. We put the fastest player possibly in the country behind the slowest. Our offense was a contradiction of styles. We had a bunch of singles hitters but didn't try to be aggressive on the base path unless it was waving someone home when he is out by a mile.
Last year was probably the most frustrating offense to watch. We would regularly have someone in the zone and then ask them to bunt 2 straight trips. It was like no one was ever allowed to find a rhythm.

Who said you can't or don't want to? Nobody is saying that. But of the two you can win more with less offense than less pitching the majority of the time.

[shoeless joe]

I would say our clutch hitting was as much to do with our run as pitching. Hell Demarcus Henderson had more clutch hits that year than probably our entire team last year.

You are not wrong here. But no team makes a run without clutch or timely hitting. That's why some are saying we aren't as far away as others think. With top notch pitching and timely hitting anyone can do well in the postseason.

Folks keep wanting to gloss over what Cohen and his team accomplished in '13 by using a myriad of excuses...we got lucky, the balls benifitted us, etc...

The bottom line is that any team that makes a deep run can go back and look to where they caught a few breaks. People with an agenda look for any way possible to discredit the fact that in '13, with some of cohen's quirky decision making, we made it farther than we ever had under anyone else.

[engie]

With the new ball being used today that would have been a HR hit where it was. We were just very fortunate to get where we did in 2013 with only one good starter. Even after making the CWS championship round with no losses in the sub-bracket we ended up having to start Pollo in championship game #1. And no offense to Pollo because he gave all he had and did some good things for us, but that is NOT the kind of talent in a pitcher you want starting out a national championship series.

And Rea would have hit a grand slam that was a flyout earlier in that game...

[dawgs]

I don't understand why everyone seems to assume you can't have both great pitching and hitting.


Amen. I want to win as many games 10-1 as possible. Great hitting and shit pitching, you lose too many games 11-10. Great pitching and shit hitting, you lose too many games 2-1.

[dawgs]

I haven't watched every CWS game this year, and I haven't watched every inning of the games I have turned on, BUT it sure seems like I see a HR every few innings I've watched. I know there's been 2 1-0 games, but either I've kicked into seeing the only HRs of the CWS or the balls are flying out of the park more these days. Florida had a guy hit a pop fly opposite field HR against Miami. Off the bat it looked like it'd be an easy out.

Either way, the talk that you can't hit HRs at the CWS is proving to be false this year IMO.

[Really Clark?]

Amen. I want to win as many games 10-1 as possible. Great hitting and shit pitching, you lose too many games 11-10. Great pitching and shit hitting, you lose too many games 2-1.

Who is advocating not having both in this thread? Of course you would love to have both. That has not been the debate. Period. The fact is however it is still easier and you have a better chance at winning, even the championship, with great pitching and avg hitting than the other way around. You want both but if want a better chance, build on pitching.

[Really Clark?]

I haven't watched every CWS game this year, and I haven't watched every inning of the games I have turned on, BUT it sure seems like I see a HR every few innings I've watched. I know there's been 2 1-0 games, but either I've kicked into seeing the only HRs of the CWS or the balls are flying out of the park more these days. Florida had a guy hit a pop fly opposite field HR against Miami. Off the bat it looked like it'd be an easy out.

Either way, the talk that you can't hit HRs at the CWS is proving to be false this year IMO.

Home runs have been up across the board the whole year. By as much as 40% at one point this season. The ball change has been discussed ad nauseam.

[Tbonewannabe]

Who is advocating not having both in this thread? Of course you would love to have both. That has not been the debate. Period. The fact is however it is still easier and you have a better chance at winning, even the championship, with great pitching and avg hitting than the other way around. You want both but if want a better chance, build on pitching.

I agree. Our 2013 run is probably the only time you will see a pitching staff made up like that make Omaha. Butch has to develop some Stratton/Graveman pitchers. We have to get some pop in the lineup. Robson doesn't need to hit between 2-8. If I see him hitting behind Gordon hitting 4th I will lose my mind.

Cohen needs to quit trying to outsmart everyone and just play baseball.

[Todd4State]

Who is advocating not having both in this thread? Of course you would love to have both. That has not been the debate. Period. The fact is however it is still easier and you have a better chance at winning, even the championship, with great pitching and avg hitting than the other way around. You want both but if want a better chance, build on pitching.

Smitty likes to try to change things when he has been proven wrong.

[engie]

Our 2013 run is probably the only time you will see a pitching staff made up like that make Omaha

That staff was #15 nationally in ERA. It was #17 nationally in WHIP. It was #10 nationally in K/9.

A staff doesn't have to be traditional to be elite...

[Tbonewannabe]

That staff was #15 nationally in ERA. It was #17 nationally in WHIP. It was #10 nationally in K/9.

A staff doesn't have to be traditional to be elite...

It should be easier to find 2 starters and a closer like you said earlier. That 2013 was like 6 people cobbled together. It was a pretty rare thing to have that many people pitch that well. Other than our entire pitching staff shitting the bed, last year's offense had almost no one step up in crunch time. It blew my mind how bad we were.

If we had a runner on 2nd and 3rd down 1 in the 9th with no outs, we would promptly strike out, pop up, and then hit a deep fly. It did not matter who was at the plate. We typically scored runs ok but we always seemed to never score when we needed it. It reminded me of the football team in 2001. If it could randomly go wrong it would.

[War Machine Dawg]

I agree. Our 2013 run is probably the only time you will see a pitching staff made up like that make Omaha. Butch has to develop some Stratton/Graveman pitchers. We have to get some pop in the lineup. Robson doesn't need to hit between 3-8. If I see him hitting behind Gordon hitting 4th I will lose my mind.

Cohen needs to quit trying to outsmart everyone and just play baseball.

#TheMeddler gonna #Meddle

[maroonmania]

Man, what a sick defensive play there by Bregman.

[dawgs]

Home runs have been up across the board the whole year. By as much as 40% at one point this season. The ball change has been discussed ad nauseam.

Just blows my mind that everyone got the memo except us. We are still playing dead ball era baseball, while everyone else moved right into the steroid era. Why didn't we see it coming? Why did we swing so far away from a somewhat traditionally constructed team, that a change to the ball completely destroyed the team we were building? Why did our coaches view extra base hits and HRs as something not worthwhile pursuing on the recruiting trail and in player development?

[dawgs]

Smitty likes to try to change things when he has been proven wrong.

You actually believe that, huh?

[Todd4State]

Just blows my mind that everyone got the memo except us. We are still playing dead ball era baseball, while everyone else moved right into the steroid era. Why didn't we see it coming? Why did we swing so far away from a somewhat traditionally constructed team, that a change to the ball completely destroyed the team we were building? Why did our coaches view extra base hits and HRs as something not worthwhile pursuing on the recruiting trail and in player development?

First of all this is hardly the steroid era. We "didn't see it coming" because they basically decided to change in the offseason- giving us no opportunity to adjust. For now.

Cohen built us for the era at the time and it resulted in us getting to the NC round, a regional host appearance, and two SR's. It's pretty incredible to me that any MSU fan with a brain would criticize our coach for adjusting to the era and then call him out for not adjusting when the rug was basically pulled out from under us.

I also find it hilarious that any fan really believes that Cohen doesn't want players that hit extra base hits. That's stupid on so many levels.

[Todd4State]

You actually believe that, huh?

Same posting style from a poster who has admitted to using multiple user names and is a known troll, baseball ignorance in the same areas of the game, etc.

Could be a coincidence- but for the sake of humanity I hope not. A simple IP address check can confirm my suspicions.

[KB21]

First of all this is hardly the steroid era. We "didn't see it coming" because they basically decided to change in the offseason- giving us no opportunity to adjust. For now.

Cohen built us for the era at the time and it resulted in us getting to the NC round, a regional host appearance, and two SR's. It's pretty incredible to me that any MSU fan with a brain would criticize our coach for adjusting to the era and then call him out for not adjusting when the rug was basically pulled out from under us.

I also find it hilarious that any fan really believes that Cohen doesn't want players that hit extra base hits. That's stupid on so many levels.

It's like some fans choose to ignore the offense Cohen coached at Florida and at Kentucky.

[Smitty]

You actually believe that, huh?

He also believes that Ross Mitchell alone prevented us from going to a Regional. What a clown.

[Smitty]

It's like some fans choose to ignore the offense Cohen coached at Florida and at Kentucky.

Uh I'm pretty sure his sample size here is quite sufficient.

[Really Clark?]

Uh I'm pretty sure his sample size here is quite sufficient.

His point is Cohen can, has in the past, and been very very good at coaching a totally different type of offense that we have had in recent years. That sample size is even bigger but a lot assume that this is the only offense he knows. BThis is not a debate on our recent struggles or why or the offensive philosphy. Whether he adjusts back....we will see. The recruits suggest a change which make no mistake, as I said before I am in favor of.

[engie]

If we had a runner on 2nd and 3rd down 1 in the 9th with no outs, we would promptly strike out, pop up, and then hit a deep fly. It did not matter who was at the plate. We typically scored runs ok but we always seemed to never score when we needed it.

Just hold 7th, 8th, 9th inning leads -- and this team wins 10 more games. They were both problems -- and our clutch hitting both this year and last year pissed me off for sure -- but our disconnect I believe is what we think was the bigger problem. For me, it was pitching, and it wasn't close. When MSU scores 5 runs, we should almost never lose. This year, we were 17-11 in those games we scored 5+ in -- 11-10 without considering the early season total destruction of inferior opponents. An average Ole Miss pitching staff was 23-3 in the same situation against a much, much tougher schedule. Florida was 41-3 in the same situation. Lsu 42-3. Just win the ones we actually did hit and score fairly well in -- at an average level -- and we were back in the postseason this year as a 2-seed somewhere. Add just a shred of clutch hitting -- and we aren't far from hosting this year.

The simple reality is, he's got to get it done next year either way. This used up his get out of jail free card. One thing I found interesting upon review -- we were 3-17 in night games and 3-14 in away games. We need to practice under the lights more(a baseball "disconnect" I've never reconciled -- playing at night is far different than day games) -- and we need to hold these guys' feet to the fire in the offseason to work out the vaginitis.

[Tbonewannabe]

First of all this is hardly the steroid era. We "didn't see it coming" because they basically decided to change in the offseason- giving us no opportunity to adjust. For now.

Cohen built us for the era at the time and it resulted in us getting to the NC round, a regional host appearance, and two SR's. It's pretty incredible to me that any MSU fan with a brain would criticize our coach for adjusting to the era and then call him out for not adjusting when the rug was basically pulled out from under us.

I also find it hilarious that any fan really believes that Cohen doesn't want players that hit extra base hits. That's stupid on so many levels.

I think Cohen went too far trying to take advantage of the dead ball that it screwed him when he had to change. It would be like if Football declared the triple option illegal. GT would suck next year. Cohen's offense was based on scratching out a few runs a game and letting our pitching and defense win. Just score enough that it puts pressure on the other team. Very similar to the mindset Jackie Sherrill had in football. The problem hits like in 2003 when the defense is DOA so now there is no way the offense can score enough to keep up. I think with the amount of bunting we did this year really shows how much faith Cohen had in this team to score runs. It looked like he had almost no faith that we would put up more than a couple of runs at most in an inning. It may have affected the team's mindset. At the end of games when we needed a hit to drive in a tying or winning run, all of our hitters were looking to draw a walk. I can't remember what game but Gavin Collins missed a walk off homer by about 4 feet to the left. It was one of the few times I saw a hitter look to impose his will.

Cohen seems he to went too laid back and the team lost its intensity. We seem more interested in doing shit in the dugout than stretching a double into a triple.

[Political Hack]

Just hold 7th, 8th, 9th inning leads -- and this team wins 10 more games.

we missed Holder and testicles. We have those two things, we definitely win 10 more and maybe even win a few games in the SEC tourney.

Cohen hates doubles.***

[shoeless joe]

we need to hold these guys' feet to the fire in the offseason to work out the vaginitis.

This is absolutely it. Put the players in a pressure cooker during off season and pre season and it will make a difference come nut cuttin time. Funny thing is, the folks that thought Cohen was too mean when he did this are the same ones bitching about him now.

[dawgs]

First of all this is hardly the steroid era. We "didn't see it coming" because they basically decided to change in the offseason- giving us no opportunity to adjust. For now.

Cohen built us for the era at the time and it resulted in us getting to the NC round, a regional host appearance, and two SR's. It's pretty incredible to me that any MSU fan with a brain would criticize our coach for adjusting to the era and then call him out for not adjusting when the rug was basically pulled out from under us.

I also find it hilarious that any fan really believes that Cohen doesn't want players that hit extra base hits. That's stupid on so many levels.

Yeah our best season corresponded with renfro being one of the most productive power hitters in college baseball, rea having his best season at MSU with power, and multiple guys with gap power. Why would we go even further away from those types of guys because of the bat/ball when our best success was still having at least a few guys hitting with power? whether the problem is recruiting or development, it's on the coaches.

[dawgs]

Same posting style from a poster who has admitted to using multiple user names and is a known troll, baseball ignorance in the same areas of the game, etc.

Could be a coincidence- but for the sake of humanity I hope not. A simple IP address check can confirm my suspicions.

There's no baseball ignorance here.

[engie]

Why would we go even further away from those types of guys because of the bat/ball when our best success was still having at least a few guys hitting with power? whether the problem is recruiting or development, it's on the coaches.
Link me to us "going further away from those types of guys" please. Renfroe didn't come to MSU as an elite power hitter. But was a guy with potential. We've got a bunch of those with power potential. Just need to have the lights come on for one or two of them.

Since the first whispers of a potential ball change -- long before implementation -- here are our position player signees.
Humphreys - power
Rooker - power potential
Ingram - power potential
Collins - power
Swinarski - power potential
Walker - defensive walkon/filler
Vickerson - singles guy
Heck - singles guy/defensive signee

Vallot - power. went mlb
Burdick - power. went mlb
Gordon - power potential
Holland - gap guy(struggled this year)
Reynolds - gap guy(began to show late this year)
Smith - gap guy
Gridley - singles guy that can mature into a gap guy
Lovelady - defensive guy
Stafford - not here long enough to know
Spruill - defensive filler

Pickett - power. went mlb
Riley - power. went mlb
Lowe - power
Alexander - projects as a gap guy
Stovall - gap guy with power potential
Mangum - CBrown clone
Blaylock - no clue
Marrero - gap guy
Poole - defensive/probably a singles guy

We've had 2 classes of bad luck in the draft with our power potential guys. Doesn't mean that we aren't actively trying to get them.

[Maroonthirteen]

I also find it hilarious that any fan really believes that Cohen doesn't want players that hit extra base hits. That's stupid on so many levels.

Yep. Which is why I dont buy the "built team for the dead ball". Whether the ball is dead or spun tight as dicks hat ban, you recruit guys that can hit. We missed on the recruiting. Plain and simple.

[Really Clark?]

Yeah our best season corresponded with renfro being one of the most productive power hitters in college baseball, rea having his best season at MSU with power, and multiple guys with gap power. Why would we go even further away from those types of guys because of the bat/ball when our best success was still having at least a few guys hitting with power? whether the problem is recruiting or development, it's on the coaches.

Now to be completely fair, while it was a good offense in 2013 it was not our best. 2009 we slashed .298/.468/.398 as a team, 2010 .296/.474/.398, and 2013 it was .293/.385/.382. His first two years, as horrible as they were, offensively was better than 2013. Now again in the essence of being fair the 2013 totals while lower ranked us higher in comparison to other teams. But the 2.78 era our staff posted had a bigger influence. The year before was a 2.58 but the offense was way off but we still won 40 games with great pitching and a .251 hitting team. Last year with a 3.06 we win 39 games. Our three best era years are the three best seasons for wins under Cohen.

[Todd4State]

Just hold 7th, 8th, 9th inning leads -- and this team wins 10 more games. They were both problems -- and our clutch hitting both this year and last year pissed me off for sure -- but our disconnect I believe is what we think was the bigger problem. For me, it was pitching, and it wasn't close. When MSU scores 5 runs, we should almost never lose. This year, we were 17-11 in those games we scored 5+ in -- 11-10 without considering the early season total destruction of inferior opponents. An average Ole Miss pitching staff was 23-3 in the same situation against a much, much tougher schedule. Florida was 41-3 in the same situation. Lsu 42-3. Just win the ones we actually did hit and score fairly well in -- at an average level -- and we were back in the postseason this year as a 2-seed somewhere. Add just a shred of clutch hitting -- and we aren't far from hosting this year.

The simple reality is, he's got to get it done next year either way. This used up his get out of jail free card. One thing I found interesting upon review -- we were 3-17 in night games and 3-14 in away games. We need to practice under the lights more(a baseball "disconnect" I've never reconciled -- playing at night is far different than day games) -- and we need to hold these guys' feet to the fire in the offseason to work out the vaginitis.

This is what should be obvious to anyone with any baseball knowledge at all.

[Todd4State]

I think Cohen went too far trying to take advantage of the dead ball that it screwed him when he had to change. It would be like if Football declared the triple option illegal. GT would suck next year. Cohen's offense was based on scratching out a few runs a game and letting our pitching and defense win. Just score enough that it puts pressure on the other team. Very similar to the mindset Jackie Sherrill had in football. The problem hits like in 2003 when the defense is DOA so now there is no way the offense can score enough to keep up. I think with the amount of bunting we did this year really shows how much faith Cohen had in this team to score runs. It looked like he had almost no faith that we would put up more than a couple of runs at most in an inning. It may have affected the team's mindset. At the end of games when we needed a hit to drive in a tying or winning run, all of our hitters were looking to draw a walk. I can't remember what game but Gavin Collins missed a walk off homer by about 4 feet to the left. It was one of the few times I saw a hitter look to impose his will.

Cohen seems he to went too laid back and the team lost its intensity. We seem more interested in doing shit in the dugout than stretching a double into a triple.

The thing is if football made the triple option illegal, I most people on here would think GT fans were crazy if they put Paul Johnson on the hot seat.

[Todd4State]

There's no baseball ignorance here.

Complaining about how Cohen built our team resulting in our best showing at Omaha and then wondering why we didn't change in the offseason with no warning of said change and then blaming Cohen is baseball ignorance.

It's also short sighted considering that our offense wasn't even the main problem last year.

[Todd4State]

You actually believe that, huh?

I suspect it. Either you are a horrible poster with limited baseball knowledge or Smitty. Neither one is anything to proud of.

[dawgs]

Complaining about how Cohen built our team resulting in our best showing at Omaha and then wondering why we didn't change in the offseason with no warning of said change and then blaming Cohen is baseball ignorance.

It's also short sighted considering that our offense wasn't even the main problem last year.

We couldn't hit or pitch. But better and we win 10 more games. Pitch better and we win 10 more games. IMO both need to be corrected ASAP. They problem I have is everyone (except me and smitty apparently) keeps saying fix the pitching and we'll be fine. No. Fix both.

It is my opinion that its a bit easier to coach a guy up with pitching, whereas hitters either have the talent and show promise or they don't. Pitching is definitely a more mental game than hitting. Obviously it's not black and white, you can't coach up pollo to pitch like kershaw, but pollo was an effectively decent pitcher for us despite having mediocre or worse stuff by teaching him how to pitch. Same with Ross Mitchell. Likewise, you can sometimes see a guy come out of nowhere and start hitting like a hall of famer (Ortiz, Jose Bautista), but usually you can see the talent from the beginning (Harper, trout, Stanton, Bryant). Doesn't mean they can't improve, but the tools are obvious right there in front of you, and usually they are at least above avg hitters from the get go. So what I'm saying is that I think/hope that with another year of coaching and experience we see a jump with our pitching staff. However, I don't see a whole lot of promise with our bats and I'm concerned we won't see them make a jump since not many of them seem to be showing much promise.

Also, why can't we get better production out of freshmen? With your best players leaving campus after 3 years, you have to have productive freshmen and sophomores. If not, you have an extremely shallow roster. We need to figure out what everyone else that's worth a damn is doing to get some of their freshmen to be productive.

[dawgs]

Link me to us "going further away from those types of guys" please. Renfroe didn't come to MSU as an elite power hitter. But was a guy with potential. We've got a bunch of those with power potential. Just need to have the lights come on for one or two of them.

Since the first whispers of a potential ball change -- long before implementation -- here are our position player signees.
Humphreys - power
Rooker - power potential
Ingram - power potential
Collins - power
Swinarski - power potential
Walker - defensive walkon/filler
Vickerson - singles guy
Heck - singles guy/defensive signee

Vallot - power. went mlb
Burdick - power. went mlb
Gordon - power potential
Holland - gap guy(struggled this year)
Reynolds - gap guy(began to show late this year)
Smith - gap guy
Gridley - singles guy that can mature into a gap guy
Lovelady - defensive guy
Stafford - not here long enough to know
Spruill - defensive filler

Pickett - power. went mlb
Riley - power. went mlb
Lowe - power
Alexander - projects as a gap guy
Stovall - gap guy with power potential
Mangum - CBrown clone
Blaylock - no clue
Marrero - gap guy
Poole - defensive/probably a singles guy

We've had 2 classes of bad luck in the draft with our power potential guys. Doesn't mean that we aren't actively trying to get them.

Everyone knows the challenges of being a college baseball coach. Either overcome it or find someone that will. Florida, vandy, Texas, ucla, Miami, cal st Fullerton, lsu, etc. all deal with the same draft shit. We can expound on the scholarship problems (and they do exist), but until common sense sets in, Cohen either deals with it or he doesn't and gets fired.

[Todd4State]

We couldn't hit or pitch. But better and we win 10 more games. Pitch better and we win 10 more games. IMO both need to be corrected ASAP. They problem I have is everyone (except me and smitty apparently) keeps saying fix the pitching and we'll be fine. No. Fix both.

It is my opinion that its a bit easier to coach a guy up with pitching, whereas hitters either have the talent and show promise or they don't. Pitching is definitely a more mental game than hitting. Obviously it's not black and white, you can't coach up pollo to pitch like kershaw, but pollo was an effectively decent pitcher for us despite having mediocre or worse stuff by teaching him how to pitch. Same with Ross Mitchell. Likewise, you can sometimes see a guy come out of nowhere and start hitting like a hall of famer (Ortiz, Jose Bautista), but usually you can see the talent from the beginning (Harper, trout, Stanton, Bryant). Doesn't mean they can't improve, but the tools are obvious right there in front of you, and usually they are at least above avg hitters from the get go. So what I'm saying is that I think/hope that with another year of coaching and experience we see a jump with our pitching staff. However, I don't see a whole lot of promise with our bats and I'm concerned we won't see them make a jump since not many of them seem to be showing much promise.

Also, why can't we get better production out of freshmen? With your best players leaving campus after 3 years, you have to have productive freshmen and sophomores. If not, you have an extremely shallow roster. We need to figure out what everyone else that's worth a damn is doing to get some of their freshmen to be productive.

Again, no one is saying both shouldn't be "fixed". Simply that if we only fix pitching, we will be fine and winning at a high level. That doesn't mean that people don't want to see more home runs and extra base hits. Pitching wins championships. Offense is for the fans. Not sure what your disconnect here is.

Point out a team that has a 3-4 freshmen making major contributions right now? LSU's top freshman prospect this year was essentially a pinch runner for this year. There isn't a team in the SEC that can expect to rely on freshmen and have a good season. If you have one freshman making a major impact right away, you should consider yourself fortunate. Anything more than that is an anomaly. Even Will Clark started out on the bench for us as a freshman and had to play his way into the lineup.

[engie]

Everyone knows the challenges of being a college baseball coach. Either overcome it or find someone that will. Florida, vandy, Texas, ucla, Miami, cal st Fullerton, lsu, etc. all deal with the same draft shit. We can expound on the scholarship problems (and they do exist), but until common sense sets in, Cohen either deals with it or he doesn't and gets fired.

Great. So you just listed:
Arguably the most natural recruiting-advantaged located team in the country.
Arguably most recruiting-advantaged academic team in the country.
The richest team in the country and one of the two most history-laden in one of the best towns in the country.
The team in friggin LA in a ridiculous hotbed of baseball talent.
The team in friggin Miami in a ridiculous hotbed of baseball talent.
The team in friggin Fullerton in a ridiculous hotbed of baseball talent.
The most modern history-laden team in the country and the biggest baseball revenue school in the country by almost double at this point.
None of which are hit with scholarship limitations that we are.

But you want people to believe that you are approaching it logically in throwing these names out there like we should be their consistent equals in baseball? As an expectation, this is totally off-the-wall ridiculous at this point. You are never going to be happy or satisfied.

[Tbonewannabe]

I don't know what we either teach or look for in hitters but we look different than the really good offensive teams. When we were on the same field as ULL for the regional, you would have guessed wrong if you blindly picked the SEC team. Hopefully with the shift in baseball with the new ball we go after it differently next year.

I don't think it was a fluke that we had great pitching staffs for several years but we make the title game when we have Renfroe in the 3 spot. We didn't have anyone on the team last year people were nervous to pitch to. You would hope Wes Rea but for most of his plate appearances he looked like a slap hitter.

[Really Clark?]

We couldn't hit or pitch. But better and we win 10 more games. Pitch better and we win 10 more games. IMO both need to be corrected ASAP. They problem I have is everyone (except me and smitty apparently) keeps saying fix the pitching and we'll be fine. No. Fix both.

It is my opinion that its a bit easier to coach a guy up with pitching, whereas hitters either have the talent and show promise or they don't. Pitching is definitely a more mental game than hitting. Obviously it's not black and white, you can't coach up pollo to pitch like kershaw, but pollo was an effectively decent pitcher for us despite having mediocre or worse stuff by teaching him how to pitch. Same with Ross Mitchell. Likewise, you can sometimes see a guy come out of nowhere and start hitting like a hall of famer (Ortiz, Jose Bautista), but usually you can see the talent from the beginning (Harper, trout, Stanton, Bryant). Doesn't mean they can't improve, but the tools are obvious right there in front of you, and usually they are at least above avg hitters from the get go. So what I'm saying is that I think/hope that with another year of coaching and experience we see a jump with our pitching staff. However, I don't see a whole lot of promise with our bats and I'm concerned we won't see them make a jump since not many of them seem to be showing much promise.

Also, why can't we get better production out of freshmen? With your best players leaving campus after 3 years, you have to have productive freshmen and sophomores. If not, you have an extremely shallow roster. We need to figure out what everyone else that's worth a damn is doing to get some of their freshmen to be productive.

Man how many times have I or others in this thread have had to come back and post that we want both. But the fact is the track to quicker and longer success is with great pitching. Yeah our offense needs a lot of adjustments. But by doing just one thing better on offense this year, clutch hitting or hitting with runners in scoring position, and our offense would have been better. Not elite and not still needing improvement in areas, but just that one adjustment makes our offense look much better for the year. Unfortunately, that is not always a coaching fix. Leaders and winner perform despite of coaching or even sloppy fundamentals. You can as a coach do a lot of things mentally, physically, fundamentally, strategic, game plan, etc. to try and help (how much of our problems were one or more of these issues, we have thoughts but without the privilege of seeing the team day to day outside of game results, is just that, a thought) but at some point the player has to perform. And by looking at the high draft pick failures at the professional level, nobody can accurately predict what a player will ultimately become. Just looking at our SEC numbers in conference, 7th in avg, 7th in hits, 4th in at bats, 3rd in doubles, but we were 11th in RBI. Better clutch hitting and the offense looks better. Not great but avg or little above average in the league.

[Really Clark?]

I don't know what we either teach or look for in hitters but we look different than the really good offensive teams. When we were on the same field as ULL for the regional, you would have guessed wrong if you blindly picked the SEC team. Hopefully with the shift in baseball with the new ball we go after it differently next year.

I don't think it was a fluke that we had great pitching staffs for several years but we make the title game when we have Renfroe in the 3 spot. We didn't have anyone on the team last year people were nervous to pitch to. You would hope Wes Rea but for most of his plate appearances he looked like a slap hitter.

As previously stated, we made it to the finals on elite pitching and good hitting. As far as Renfroe, he was great during the season. He hit .311 with 1 HR 11 RBI during the tourney but he only hit .157 with 1 HR 4 RBI in Omaha. He helped get us there but was not swinging his best at the end. He had 2 HR from the end of April through the rest of the season and dropped from .403 avg to .345.

[shoeless joe]

IMO most of the folks clamoring that an improved pitching staff will expedite our success, and saying that we could have been a solid to good team this year with a decent pen, are the ones with pretty sound baseball knowledge. The guys screaming that we need way more offense than pitching are the ones with an agenda against our coach.

Feel free to correct me...

[Smitty]

My issue is that we aren't purposefully hurting our pitching. They just sucked this year. Bad. Were horrible. But we weren't calling fastballs down the shoot. Obviously pitching needs more work. Has anyone actually said we should be okay with the pitching performance and need to win slugfests to succeed? Don't think so. This is the straw man that ALWAYS occurs when dealing with some of you people. You can't help but meme and straw man non stop.

My issue is that we actively coach against what will lead to offensive success. The hitting instruction and in-game offense lessens or chances to win. Now we did this with the pitchers some too in personnel choices but we have coached our offense to far less than 100% potential throughout Cohens tenure.

It's not a pitching vs hitting, which one needs to improve... They both do, in different ways. We shouldn't lessen ANY aspect of the game. But our arms this year just sucked because they sucked for the most part. Our bats sucked because we can't develop talent.

[Really Clark?]

My issue is that we aren't purposefully hurting our pitching. They just sucked this year. Bad. Were horrible. But we weren't calling fastballs down the shoot. Obviously pitching needs more work. Has anyone actually said we should be okay with the pitching performance and need to win slugfests to succeed? Don't think so. This is the straw man that ALWAYS occurs when dealing with some of you people. You can't help but meme and straw man non stop.

My issue is that we actively coach against what will lead to offensive success. The hitting instruction and in-game offense lessens or chances to win. Now we did this with the pitchers some too in personnel choices but we have coached our offense to far less than 100% potential throughout Cohens tenure.

It's not a pitching vs hitting, which one needs to improve... They both do, in different ways. We shouldn't lessen ANY aspect of the game. But our arms this year just sucked because they sucked for the most part. Our bats sucked because we can't develop talent.

I actually can agree with most of that. But what is the instruction you disagree with? Do you know what all is being taught? Without insight to our hitting instruction on a daily basis how are forming an opinion on instruction? The results sucked but that has not always been the case with his instruction. At different places. Even early in his career here the offense was not bad and we had power as well. So then you have to ask where is the disconnect? I have my own opinion of what I know of his instruction and readily admit that he and many many others have more knowledge than I do. Even if I divert away from him in several aspects.

ETA. What you are pointing out as a straw man to you is the same in reverse when many of us also point to the pitching when you harp on the offense and try to make it like I and others don't think the offense is an issue. Different sides of the coin but is the same in principle.

[I seen it dawg]

Is a straw man something in a serf game?

[dawgs]

Great. So you just listed:
Arguably the most natural recruiting-advantaged located team in the country.
Arguably most recruiting-advantaged academic team in the country.
The richest team in the country and one of the two most history-laden in one of the best towns in the country.
The team in friggin LA in a ridiculous hotbed of baseball talent.
The team in friggin Miami in a ridiculous hotbed of baseball talent.
The team in friggin Fullerton in a ridiculous hotbed of baseball talent.
The most modern history-laden team in the country and the biggest baseball revenue school in the country by almost double at this point.
None of which are hit with scholarship limitations that we are.

But you want people to believe that you are approaching it logically in throwing these names out there like we should be their consistent equals in baseball? As an expectation, this is totally off-the-wall ridiculous at this point. You are never going to be happy or satisfied.

Then let's fold up the program then. Having the best atmosphere and every on-campus attendance record in the sport doesn't mean shit apparently.

[dawgs]

Again, no one is saying both shouldn't be "fixed". Simply that if we only fix pitching, we will be fine and winning at a high level. That doesn't mean that people don't want to see more home runs and extra base hits. Pitching wins championships. Offense is for the fans. Not sure what your disconnect here is.


I don't consider being a 2-3 seed in a regional to be "high level". That should be a minimal expectation damn near every season. "High level" IMO is hosting regionals and being in the national seed discussion. It's winning 20+ games in the sec and being in contention for the conf title in May.

Fixing the pitching alone gets us back to expectations. Fixing the hitting and the pitching gets us to a "high level".

[engie]

Then let's fold up the program then. Having the best atmosphere and every on-campus attendance record in the sport doesn't mean shit apparently.

- How many games have our fans ever actually won? You really think a grill in an outfield wins a baseball game?

The fact that you put us in the category with those other teams -- right now today -- reduces your thoughts on this to a joke. The Cardinals and Royals both popular right now. Mizzou should be a baseball national powerhouse!1!1 No excuse!1!11

[dawgs]

Point out a team that has a 3-4 freshmen making major contributions right now? LSU's top freshman prospect this year was essentially a pinch runner for this year. There isn't a team in the SEC that can expect to rely on freshmen and have a good season. If you have one freshman making a major impact right away, you should consider yourself fortunate. Anything more than that is an anomaly. Even Will Clark started out on the bench for us as a freshman and had to play his way into the lineup.

Jeren Kendall of vandy slashed .291/.403/.558 with 16 2B, 6 3B, 8 HR, 39 RBI, and 18 SBs. Oh yeah and he hit a walk off HR in a park that's so difficult to hit HRs in, that we decided to spend our whole season not hitting HRs so we are better prepared for not hitting HRs in the CWS (assuming we manage to get there).

Will toffey for vandy was is also a freshman. Slashed .296/.377/.424, 4HRs and 46 RBIs.

Bryan Reynolds and ro Coleman were productive sophomores that started most of their games. So among the 9 players with over 100 ABs, vandy had 4 juniors, 3 sophs, and 2 freshman. That's the kinda class balance you want in a lineup IMO. That way you are more reloading than rebuilding. There will probably be 1-3 current sophs and 1-3 current freshmen that will be ready to take on a larger role next year, but they have 5 guys guaranteed to return that have lots of experience and success to build their lineup around.

[dawgs]

- How many games have our fans ever actually won? You really think a grill in an outfield wins a baseball game?

The fact that you put us in the category with those other teams -- right now today -- reduces your thoughts on this to a joke. The Cardinals and Royals both popular right now. Mizzou should be a baseball national powerhouse!1!1 No excuse!1!11

We have the support to build a sustainable program. Basically the equivalent of football powers putting 80-100K in the seats every Saturday.

And I'm not putting us the category with those programs, I'm saying given our resources and support, we shouldn't be that far away from those programs. This is baseball, not football or even basketball, this is baseball.

[Todd4State]

I don't consider being a 2-3 seed in a regional to be "high level". That should be a minimal expectation damn near every season. "High level" IMO is hosting regionals and being in the national seed discussion. It's winning 20+ games in the sec and being in contention for the conf title in May.

Fixing the pitching alone gets us back to expectations. Fixing the hitting and the pitching gets us to a "high level".

Well, I wonder how UCLA, Cal State-Fullerton, and Texas have won NC's then? You absolutely CAN get to a high level on pitching alone. You can not get there on offense alone- which is what this thread was about originally.

[Todd4State]

Jeren Kendall of vandy slashed .291/.403/.558 with 16 2B, 6 3B, 8 HR, 39 RBI, and 18 SBs. Oh yeah and he hit a walk off HR in a park that's so difficult to hit HRs in, that we decided to spend our whole season not hitting HRs so we are better prepared for not hitting HRs in the CWS (assuming we manage to get there).

Will toffey for vandy was is also a freshman. Slashed .296/.377/.424, 4HRs and 46 RBIs.

Bryan Reynolds and ro Coleman were productive sophomores that started most of their games. So among the 9 players with over 100 ABs, vandy had 4 juniors, 3 sophs, and 2 freshman. That's the kinda class balance you want in a lineup IMO. That way you are more reloading than rebuilding. There will probably be 1-3 current sophs and 1-3 current freshmen that will be ready to take on a larger role next year, but they have 5 guys guaranteed to return that have lots of experience and success to build their lineup around.

You found the anomaly- with neither player hitting over .300 mind you. And Kendall was a top 100 draft prospect last year and happens to have a father and grandfather that played MLB baseball.

You want as few freshmen as possible- because you can not count on them. It's essentially the same as having a team with a bunch of freshmen in SEC football.

[Todd4State]

We have the support to build a sustainable program. Basically the equivalent of football powers putting 80-100K in the seats every Saturday.

And I'm not putting us the category with those programs, I'm saying given our resources and support, we shouldn't be that far away from those programs. This is baseball, not football or even basketball, this is baseball.

Reality is we aren't that far away from those programs. Fix the bullpen and we are right back in the middle with them. Yes, even with our offense.

[I seen it dawg]

1st pick in the draft bunting in the first. Total horseshit.

[I seen it dawg]

Weil is so ****ing shitty. Softball God in a few years.

[I seen it dawg]

Rhett whiseman is a gamer. Pay attention Bulldog players.

[dawgs]

You found the anomaly- with neither player hitting over .300 mind you. And Kendall was a top 100 draft prospect last year and happens to have a father and grandfather that played MLB baseball.

You want as few freshmen as possible- because you can not count on them. It's essentially the same as having a team with a bunch of freshmen in SEC football.

hitting .300 doesn't tell you everything. That's why I included slash lines and their counting numbers. Oh and they both hit .291 or better, basically a few bloop singles from .300. But nice try to downplay their stats to support your position that good teams don't have to rely on freshmen.

As for Kendall being a top 100 draft talent last year, that's the point. We gotta get a few of those guys on campus from time to time. Hell, Will Clark was a decently high draft pick out of HS but still came to school. If we can't figure out how to do it, then maybe we are destined to be also-rans while the vandy's of college baseball rule the game and consistently get good players to wait on MLB.

[Todd4State]

hitting .300 doesn't tell you everything. That's why I included slash lines and their counting numbers. Oh and they both hit .291 or better, basically a few bloop singles from .300. But nice try to downplay their stats to support your position that good teams don't have to rely on freshmen.

As for Kendall being a top 100 draft talent last year, that's the point. We gotta get a few of those guys on campus from time to time. Hell, Will Clark was a decently high draft pick out of HS but still came to school. If we can't figure out how to do it, then maybe we are destined to be also-rans while the vandy's of college baseball rule the game and consistently get good players to wait on MLB.

Again, you found the anomaly. When we had Clark and Palmeiro, that was also an anomaly.

And to say that Vanderbilt is "relying" on them is a stretch at best when they have how many first round picks this year?

[dawgs]

Again, you found the anomaly. When we had Clark and Palmeiro, that was also an anomaly.

And to say that Vanderbilt is "relying" on them is a stretch at best when they have how many first round picks this year?

sure seemed like kendall played a pretty huge role when he hit a walk off HR in the CWS. and look at his stat line. it's pretty awesome.

looking at virginia...
their top 2 regular hitters by average were sophs. but their 3rd was a freshmen, pavin smith, that slashed .309/.374/.463. they also start another freshmen that wasn't as strong of a hitter. virginia only had 3 guys play in all 65 games, 2 of them were freshmen.

look at florida...
jj schwarz slashed .332/.398/.632 with 18 HRs and 73 RBIs and played the most demanding position on the field. dalton guthrie slashed .287/.363/.365. mike rivera slashed .271/.337/.369. and they started 70, 69, and 65 games respectively.

both virginia and florida have several core players from each class. a couple of freshmen, sophs, juniors, and a senior or 2. that's what you need to be consistent and never go through a lull.

so tell me some more about how vandy is the anomaly when it comes to getting value out of freshmen?

[Todd4State]

sure seemed like kendall played a pretty huge role when he hit a walk off HR in the CWS. and look at his stat line. it's pretty awesome.

looking at virginia...
their top 2 regular hitters by average were sophs. but their 3rd was a freshmen, pavin smith, that slashed .309/.374/.463. they also start another freshmen that wasn't as strong of a hitter. virginia only had 3 guys play in all 65 games, 2 of them were freshmen.

look at florida...
jj schwarz slashed .332/.398/.632 with 18 HRs and 73 RBIs and played the most demanding position on the field. dalton guthrie slashed .287/.363/.365. mike rivera slashed .271/.337/.369. and they started 70, 69, and 65 games respectively.

both virginia and florida have several core players from each class. a couple of freshmen, sophs, juniors, and a senior or 2. that's what you need to be consistent and never go through a lull.

so tell me some more about how vandy is the anomaly when it comes to getting value out of freshmen?

Kendall having ONE big moment doesn't make him any more of an impact player on the entire season than anyone else. That would be like me saying a freshman pinch hitter was an impact player for having hitting a walk-off home run. Who had more of an impact on their team over the course of the entire year? Kendall or Dansby Swanson, Carson Fulmer, etc.

So, you've cross referenced the TOP teams in the country and on every single team- you have managed to find TWO freshman that is even hitting over .300. In other words TWO players who hit better than Gavin Collins did as a freshman for us.

Basically you're touting guys that had seasons comparable to Wes Rea- you know the guy everyone bitches about- and claiming that's now all of a sudden "impact". All the while ignoring the fact that it's still the upperclassmen that are carrying the load for the most part while the freshmen are patching holes. Guthrie and Rivera had the 8th and 9th highest averages on their team among regulars- making them essentially some of the worst hitters in their lineup. Kendall had the eighth best average on Vanderbilt's team.

"Impact" to me means that you are hitting over .300 with at least 10 home run if you are a freshman power hitter or .300 with at least 20 SB if you are a speed guy. All you're doing is listing guys that started games as a freshman and calling that "impact"- when in reality you've found one-two players that fits the criteria and neither one is on the same team. Based on what you're doing, I could argue that Ryan Gridley was an impact player for us this past season.

[KB21]

Look no farther than the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes that Vanderbilt had to see what their 2014 and 2015 runs in Omaha are built upon. In both years, Vanderbilt had the #1 rated recruiting class in the country according to Collegiate Baseball. These two classes produced: Vince Conde, John Norwood, Tyler Beede, Adam Ravenelle, Phillip Pfiefer, Jared Miller, Zander Weil, Walker Beuhler, Carson Fulmer, Dansby Swanson, Rhett Wiseman, Tyler Fergueson, and Tyler Campbell.

They have been very much junior heavy with guys that have been in their program for 2+ years over the past 2 years.

This year, Mississippi State had some JUCO guys come in, but they were largely sophomore dominated:

Jacob Robson = SO
Cody Brown = SO
Gavin Collins = SO
Reid Humphreys = SO
Ryan Gridley = FR
Austin Sexton = SO
Vance Tatum = SO

Wes Rea was the only senior who got a high percentage of at bats that was here for the previous 4 seasons. Seth Heck and Jake Vickerson were JUCO transfers in their second years. John Holland was a JUCO transfer in his 1st year on campus.

We will have a junior dominated team in 2016 and will lose a lot of those juniors to the draft. The freshman class this year was thin on hitters outside of Ryan Gridley and Cole Gordon. This was a JUCO heavy class, and that class will probably hurt us in 2017.

[Todd4State]

Look no farther than the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes that Vanderbilt had to see what their 2014 and 2015 runs in Omaha are built upon. In both years, Vanderbilt had the #1 rated recruiting class in the country according to Collegiate Baseball. These two classes produced: Vince Conde, John Norwood, Tyler Beede, Adam Ravenelle, Phillip Pfiefer, Jared Miller, Zander Weil, Walker Beuhler, Carson Fulmer, Dansby Swanson, Rhett Wiseman, Tyler Fergueson, and Tyler Campbell.

They have been very much junior heavy with guys that have been in their program for 2+ years over the past 2 years.

This year, Mississippi State had some JUCO guys come in, but they were largely sophomore dominated:

Jacob Robson = SO
Cody Brown = SO
Gavin Collins = SO
Reid Humphreys = SO
Ryan Gridley = FR
Austin Sexton = SO
Vance Tatum = SO

Wes Rea was the only senior who got a high percentage of at bats that was here for the previous 4 seasons. Seth Heck and Jake Vickerson were JUCO transfers in their second years. John Holland was a JUCO transfer in his 1st year on campus.

We will have a junior dominated team in 2016 and will lose a lot of those juniors to the draft. The freshman class this year was thin on hitters outside of Ryan Gridley and Cole Gordon. This was a JUCO heavy class, and that class will probably hurt us in 2017.

I share the exact same fear. We're going to lose probably our entire rotation, closer and one of our top relief guys, catcher, at least a couple of infielders, and at least one OF who happened to be our best hitter this year.

It's not so much the lack of impact freshmen that hurts us as much as it is guys not being productive as sophomores.

[KB21]

I share the exact same fear. We're going to lose probably our entire rotation, closer and one of our top relief guys, catcher, at least a couple of infielders, and at least one OF who happened to be our best hitter this year.

It's not so much the lack of impact freshmen that hurts us as much as it is guys not being productive as sophomores.

Yeah. The JUCOs from the 16 man signing class of 2014:

Daniel Brown, LHP, JR
Matt Spruill, 3B, SR
Luke Reynolds, 3B, JR
John Holland, 2B, SR
Michael Smith, OF, SR
Logan Elliot, RHP, JR
Josh Lovelady, C, SR
Cole Barlow, RHP, ?? (pitching for Lima Locos this summer)
Trent Waddell, LHP, SR

Of these, the only true impact bats are Reynolds and Holland. Daniel Brown may be a starter this year in the rotation. Outside of those, and Lovelady as a reserve catcher, the JUCOs from this class simply did not produce.

[dawgs]

Kendall having ONE big moment doesn't make him any more of an impact player on the entire season than anyone else. That would be like me saying a freshman pinch hitter was an impact player for having hitting a walk-off home run. Who had more of an impact on their team over the course of the entire year? Kendall or Dansby Swanson, Carson Fulmer, etc.

So, you've cross referenced the TOP teams in the country and on every single team- you have managed to find TWO freshman that is even hitting over .300. In other words TWO players who hit better than Gavin Collins did as a freshman for us.

Basically you're touting guys that had seasons comparable to Wes Rea- you know the guy everyone bitches about- and claiming that's now all of a sudden "impact". All the while ignoring the fact that it's still the upperclassmen that are carrying the load for the most part while the freshmen are patching holes. Guthrie and Rivera had the 8th and 9th highest averages on their team among regulars- making them essentially some of the worst hitters in their lineup. Kendall had the eighth best average on Vanderbilt's team.

"Impact" to me means that you are hitting over .300 with at least 10 home run if you are a freshman power hitter or .300 with at least 20 SB if you are a speed guy. All you're doing is listing guys that started games as a freshman and calling that "impact"- when in reality you've found one-two players that fits the criteria and neither one is on the same team. Based on what you're doing, I could argue that Ryan Gridley was an impact player for us this past season.

Geez I guess .291 with 8 HRs and 18 SBs just misses everyone of your arbitrary cutoffs. Those are basically Wes Rea numbers there.

And of course I'm looking at top teams. Why would I go dig thru .500 teams to prove my point that good teams usually have a couple of freshmen that play big roles and are productive enough to be positive contributors on good teams?

[dawgs]

Yeah. The JUCOs from the 16 man signing class of 2014:

Daniel Brown, LHP, JR
Matt Spruill, 3B, SR
Luke Reynolds, 3B, JR
John Holland, 2B, SR
Michael Smith, OF, SR
Logan Elliot, RHP, JR
Josh Lovelady, C, SR
Cole Barlow, RHP, ?? (pitching for Lima Locos this summer)
Trent Waddell, LHP, SR

Of these, the only true impact bats are Reynolds and Holland. Daniel Brown may be a starter this year in the rotation. Outside of those, and Lovelady as a reserve catcher, the JUCOs from this class simply did not produce.

Jackie needs to have a discussion with Cohen about the perils of heavy juco recruiting. We know how it plays out when you rely on a disappointing group of jucos. When a freshmen struggles, he's go several years to right the ship. When a juco struggles, he's already out of time.

[Todd4State]

Geez I guess .291 with 8 HRs and 18 SBs just misses everyone of your arbitrary cutoffs. Those are basically Wes Rea numbers there.

And of course I'm looking at top teams. Why would I go dig thru .500 teams to prove my point that good teams usually have a couple of freshmen that play big roles and are productive enough to be positive contributors on good teams?

Even if you include Kendall, that's only three freshmen- and it still doesn't change the fact that he is near the bottom of his team in batting average.

And it also doesn't change the fact of the matter that those teams are carried by experienced players- not their freshmen.

[msstate7]

Back to the thread title... Has there ever been a title matchup with worse uniforms? Geez these teams look terrible

[dawgs]

Even if you include Kendall, that's only three freshmen- and it still doesn't change the fact that he is near the bottom of his team in batting average.

And it also doesn't change the fact of the matter that those teams are carried by experienced players- not their freshmen.

When I said good teams have freshmen they rely on, or whatever exactly I said that you latched on to has have been proven completely wrong on over and over. I clearly and blatantly obviously didn't mean that the freshmen would be doing the job along without help from sophs, juniors, and seniors. But thanks for taking a comment, stretching it far beyond any reasonable context and acting like I said we should have freshmen hitting like mike trout and Bryce Harper. That was never what I said or intended to say. But you have your agenda, and I'll be damned if you aren't going to keep throwing shit against the wall u til you find something to stick.

[Smitty]

When I said good teams have freshmen they rely on, or whatever exactly I said that you latched on to as have been proven completely wrong on over and over, I didn't mean that the freshmen would be doing the job along without help from sophs, juniors, and seniors. But thanks for taking a comment, stretching it far beyond any reasonable context and acting like I said we should have freshmen hitting like mike trout and Bryce Harper. That was never what I said or intended to say. But you have your agenda, and I'll be damned if you aren't going to keep throwing shit against the wall u til you find something to stick.

Hear hear

[dawgs]

Also, why can't we get better production out of freshmen? With your best players leaving campus after 3 years, you have to have productive freshmen and sophomores. If not, you have an extremely shallow roster. We need to figure out what everyone else that's worth a damn is doing to get some of their freshmen to be productive.

Just went back and found my initial post that set off todd. "productive freshmen and sophomores" and "some of their freshmen to be productive" is a long way from what todd has tried to imply I've said or twist my words into me saying we need to "rely" on freshmen.

[Homedawg]

Hear hear

Thought we already did, you know, w your boy hump! oh how fast you run from your ignorant hump, trout comparison. True idiocy.

[msstate7]

Fulmer keeps licking his fingers before pitches. Didn't think you could do that.

[Todd4State]

When I said good teams have freshmen they rely on, or whatever exactly I said that you latched on to has have been proven completely wrong on over and over. I clearly and blatantly obviously didn't mean that the freshmen would be doing the job along without help from sophs, juniors, and seniors. But thanks for taking a comment, stretching it far beyond any reasonable context and acting like I said we should have freshmen hitting like mike trout and Bryce Harper. That was never what I said or intended to say. But you have your agenda, and I'll be damned if you aren't going to keep throwing shit against the wall u til you find something to stick.

So, what are you saying? That us having freshmen in the lineup is a good thing because they get experience? Would it not be preferable to have a team full of upperclassmen rather than a team of roughly almost half underclassmen per you- "two freshmen, two sophomores" or whatever it was that you said- aren't having to go through growing pains?

You aren't understanding that in the area that we recruit, MOST of those players are extremely raw and are going to take two years to fully develop because of the travel team situation in our area. In other words- the reason I am against your development plan is because it would most likely mean that about half of our lineup would be still developing every single year- which is recipe for disaster in the SEC. It's not a coincidence that our last freshman that truly contributed at a high- oh I'm sorry, I'm taking you out of context now because I have some sort of an agenda- level was from California and then this year from Georgia.

The bottom line is we need to stack classes of 10-15 players every year and make sure every position is covered. And if we find Will Clark 2.0 in one of those classes- awesome. But we can not rely on that. And we should not count on that.

Here's OUR last team from Omaha:

C- Ammo- Sr.
1B- Rea- RS So.
2B- Pirtle- Jr.
3B- Detz/Frost- Jr./RS Sr.
SS- Frazier- Jr.
LF- Henderson- RS So.
CF- CT- Sr.
RF- Renfroe- Jr.
DH- Porter- Sr.

EVERY single player had been out of HS at least three years in the starting lineup. And the biggest exception on the pitching staff was Holder who was a sophomore and the best closer in the SEC at that time. The only other sophomore that contributed was Fitts- who was basically used for two innings to get the ball to Girodo.

Now, the way you are saying it should work might work for Vanderbilt maybe. But much like our football team, we need to be a developmental baseball program for us to be successful.

[KB21]

Even if you include Kendall, that's only three freshmen- and it still doesn't change the fact that he is near the bottom of his team in batting average.

And it also doesn't change the fact of the matter that those teams are carried by experienced players- not their freshmen.

It also doesn't take into account park factors, which do effect things. That doesn't diminish the fact that Mississippi State has limited power in their line up. Opposing teams hit only 22 home runs at Dudy Noble this year. Heck, our team hit 6 in Kentucky's cracker jack stadium. You can see why Cohen played to his ball park there, as he had power hitters up and down his line up. Cohen has always stressed hitting the ball up the middle and using all the fields to his hitters. Ryan Strieby, former SEC Player of the Year, credits Cohen for making him a better hitter overall because of this approach, but even he probably benefited from that stadium more than most realize.

For those that believe Cohen coaches hitters to not hit home runs:

2009 Connor Powers = .668 SLG, 19 HR, 15 2B
2009 Russ Sneed = .532 SLG, 9 HR, 8 2B
2009 Ryan Duffy = .645 SLG, 10 HR, 8 2B
2009 Cody Freeman = .533 SLG, 6 HR, 3 2B
2009 Team = .468 SLG, 61 HRs, 103 2B

2010 Connor Powers = .696 SLG, 16 HR, 18 2B
2010 Luke Adkins = .532 SLG, 8 HR, 14 2B
2010 Nick Vickerson = .525 SLG, 8 HR, 12 2B
2010 Russ Sneed = .524 SLG, 9 HR, 10 2B
2010 Ryan Duffy = .642 SLG, 10 HR, 7 2B
2010 Team = .474 SLG, 68 HR, 112 2B

He's not coaching players to hit singles and not home runs. He's also had some bad luck with recruiting power guys. Runey Davis went pro from his first class. Corey Dickerson went pro from his second class. He lost Chase Vallot and Cord Sanberg last year and Austin Riley and Greg Pickett this year.

[dawgs]

So, what are you saying? That us having freshmen in the lineup is a good thing because they get experience? Would it not be preferable to have a team full of upperclassmen rather than a team of roughly almost half underclassmen per you- "two freshmen, two sophomores" or whatever it was that you said- aren't having to go through growing pains?

You aren't understanding that in the area that we recruit, MOST of those players are extremely raw and are going to take two years to fully develop because of the travel team situation in our area. In other words- the reason I am against your development plan is because it would most likely mean that about half of our lineup would be still developing every single year- which is recipe for disaster in the SEC. It's not a coincidence that our last freshman that truly contributed at a high- oh I'm sorry, I'm taking you out of context now because I have some sort of an agenda- level was from California and then this year from Georgia.

The bottom line is we need to stack classes of 10-15 players every year and make sure every position is covered. And if we find Will Clark 2.0 in one of those classes- awesome. But we can not rely on that. And we should not count on that.

Here's OUR last team from Omaha:

C- Ammo- Sr.
1B- Rea- RS So.
2B- Pirtle- Jr.
3B- Detz/Frost- Jr./RS Sr.
SS- Frazier- Jr.
LF- Henderson- RS So.
CF- CT- Sr.
RF- Renfroe- Jr.
DH- Porter- Sr.

EVERY single player had been out of HS at least three years in the starting lineup. And the biggest exception on the pitching staff was Holder who was a sophomore and the best closer in the SEC at that time. The only other sophomore that contributed was Fitts- who was basically used for two innings to get the ball to Girodo.

Now, the way you are saying it should work might work for Vanderbilt maybe. But much like our football team, we need to be a developmental baseball program for us to be successful.

I'm saying the fact that we don't have freshmen ready and able to make positive contributions from get go is a problem. No I don't want 10 freshmen playing, but having 2 freshmen able to come in and play well means they should be able to be better as sophs and hopefully stud 1st round pick types as juniors. It's rarer for a guy to go from a weak contributor or not playing for 2 years to being a really good junior season player. Having some semblance of balance between the classes in your starting lineup prevents a lull when you lose a couple of stud juniors, because you have good sophs with 1-2 years of experience moving into those roles and some freshmen with a year of contributing ready to move up and be better as sophs, etc. and obviously a few guys that don't play will move into a starting role too, but it's nice when you have known and proven quantity at 4-6 positions going into the season instead of having to break in 7 new starters or something.

[Todd4State]

I'm saying the fact that we don't have freshmen ready and able to make positive contributions from get go is a problem. No I don't want 10 freshmen playing, but having 2 freshmen able to come in and play well means they should be able to be better as sophs and hopefully stud 1st round pick types as juniors. It's rarer for a guy to go from a weak contributor or not playing for 2 years to being a really good junior season player. Having some semblance of balance between the classes in your starting lineup prevents a lull when you lose a couple of stud juniors, because you have good sophs with 1-2 years of experience moving into those roles and some freshmen with a year of contributing ready to move up and be better as sophs, etc. and obviously a few guys that don't play will move into a starting role too, but it's nice when you have known and proven quantity at 4-6 positions going into the season instead of having to break in 7 new starters or something.

That's the beauty of summer baseball- your players that don't play a lot get at bats and IP. We can also get guys IP in relief and guys AB's here and there in pinch hit situations.

My opinion is based more on the types of players Mississippi produces than anything because that is the primary place that we are going to get players. What you are talking about is more of a "perfect world" scenario.

[dawgs]

It also doesn't take into account park factors, which do effect things. That doesn't diminish the fact that Mississippi State has limited power in their line up. Opposing teams hit only 22 home runs at Dudy Noble this year. Heck, our team hit 6 in Kentucky's cracker jack stadium. You can see why Cohen played to his ball park there, as he had power hitters up and down his line up. Cohen has always stressed hitting the ball up the middle and using all the fields to his hitters. Ryan Strieby, former SEC Player of the Year, credits Cohen for making him a better hitter overall because of this approach, but even he probably benefited from that stadium more than most realize.

For those that believe Cohen coaches hitters to not hit home runs:

2009 Connor Powers = .668 SLG, 19 HR, 15 2B
2009 Russ Sneed = .532 SLG, 9 HR, 8 2B
2009 Ryan Duffy = .645 SLG, 10 HR, 8 2B
2009 Cody Freeman = .533 SLG, 6 HR, 3 2B
2009 Team = .468 SLG, 61 HRs, 103 2B

2010 Connor Powers = .696 SLG, 16 HR, 18 2B
2010 Luke Adkins = .532 SLG, 8 HR, 14 2B
2010 Nick Vickerson = .525 SLG, 8 HR, 12 2B
2010 Russ Sneed = .524 SLG, 9 HR, 10 2B
2010 Ryan Duffy = .642 SLG, 10 HR, 7 2B
2010 Team = .474 SLG, 68 HR, 112 2B

He's not coaching players to hit singles and not home runs. He's also had some bad luck with recruiting power guys. Runey Davis went pro from his first class. Corey Dickerson went pro from his second class. He lost Chase Vallot and Cord Sanberg last year and Austin Riley and Greg Pickett this year.

You can't deny that shit is trending in the wrong direction. And as has been pointed out multiple times before, our coaching actively takes away our best opportunities to score batches of runs. Without even getting into technique, just our in game coaching decisions. Either Cohen figures out the magic voodoo everyone else good does to get good power hitters on campus, or he'll be coaching elsewhere.

[dawgs]

That's the beauty of summer baseball- your players that don't play a lot get at bats and IP. We can also get guys IP in relief and guys AB's here and there in pinch hit situations.

My opinion is based more on the types of players Mississippi produces than anything because that is the primary place that we are going to get players. What you are talking about is more of a "perfect world" scenario.

Those freshmen crushing the ball for vandy and Florida aren't gonna sit on their asses after the CWS. They'll be playing summer ball too or working on improving somewhere.

Plus this isn't football or even basketball, this is baseball. We actually carry some clout. It's not like we haven't found studs from out of state before.

[Todd4State]

Those freshmen crushing the ball for vandy and Florida aren't gonna sit on their asses after the CWS. They'll be playing summer ball too or working on improving somewhere.

Plus this isn't football or even basketball, this is baseball. We actually carry some clout. It's not like we haven't found studs from out of state before.

Not consistently enough to count on it. Again- and I know you will never agree- we can not rely on freshmen to play for us. We may have some clout- but regardless of that we need to develop players and get teams that are stacked with upperclassmen. That is the best, most proven way for us to succeed as a program. I don't care what Vanderbilt and Florida have. Doesn't matter. Doesn't pertain to us. Their primary recruiting area isn't Mississippi- or they would be in the same boat as us and Ole Miss for that matter.

We've hashed it out over and over again. Look at our lineup from the last time we went to Omaha- that's our recipe. That's what we need to do. If we do that, we will be a contender like we all want to be every year. That's why I ripped Cohen's ass over the JUCO's.

[KB21]

You can't deny that shit is trending in the wrong direction. And as has been pointed out multiple times before, our coaching actively takes away our best opportunities to score batches of runs. Without even getting into technique, just our in game coaching decisions. Either Cohen figures out the magic voodoo everyone else good does to get good power hitters on campus, or he'll be coaching elsewhere.

So, what do you want him to do? Teach singles hitters to hit the ball with loft and completely take away their speed advantage? Or stick a guy out there that swings hard at everything just hoping he can connect on a few (Daniel Garner)?

Everyone loves to criticize John Cohen for sacrifice bunting. Well, MSU had 41 sacrifice bunts on the year. That was 4th in the SEC. The team that was right above them in the rankings? Vanderbilt with 43.

Now explain to me how Vanderbilt has done so well with MORE sacrifice bunts than John Cohen and Mississippi State have had while also having more power in the line up/easier park for hitters (69 HR)?

[Smitty]

Vanderbilt has played 15 more games than us

[KB21]

Vanderbilt has played 15 more games than us

OK. Conference only stats:

Vanderbilt 19 sac bunts
Mississippi State 18 sac bunts

[Smitty]

OK. Conference only stats:

Vanderbilt 19 sac bunts
Mississippi State 18 sac bunts

How many leadoff men did they get on base compared to us?

Still doesn't make it a smart play. They can overcome it better though. Sac bunts punish bad hitting teams more because it's harder for them to overcome the out. In 2012 we scored on just 6 man on 1st bunts. Didn't score on 26.

[dawgs]

Not consistently enough to count on it. Again- and I know you will never agree- we can not rely on freshmen to play for us. We may have some clout- but regardless of that we need to develop players and get teams that are stacked with upperclassmen. That is the best, most proven way for us to succeed as a program. I don't care what Vanderbilt and Florida have. Doesn't matter. Doesn't pertain to us. Their primary recruiting area isn't Mississippi- or they would be in the same boat as us and Ole Miss for that matter.

We've hashed it out over and over again. Look at our lineup from the last time we went to Omaha- that's our recipe. That's what we need to do. If we do that, we will be a contender like we all want to be every year. That's why I ripped Cohen's ass over the JUCO's.

you can find 1-2 freshmen that are ready to come in an contribute positively immediately, and still have plenty of development guys. i'm sure florida and vandy have plenty of developmental guys to go along with their couple of stud freshmen.

point is that either cohen isn't recruiting well enough or he's not developing well enough. then he compounds it by thinking he's smarter than everyone else and making decisions counter to decades of data.

[KB21]

Considering the fact that this team has 6 players (would be 7) playing in the Cap Cod League shows me that Cohen's recruiting is just fine, and the majority of those players are in the middle of the bell curve when it comes to pace of development.

As far as having 1-2 true freshmen coming in and contributing positively immediately, this year MSU had a true freshman start at SS for the majority of the year in Ryan Gridley. Last year, it was catcher Gavin Collins.

[maroonmania]

If Vandy was as good as they are on a level playing field it would be really something to admire. The fact that they are doing this through unfair NCAA rules that give them a huge advantage in obtaining players via being a private school somewhat disgusts me.

[State82]

If Vandy was as good as they are on a level playing field it would be really something to admire. The fact that they are doing this through unfair NCAA rules that give them a huge advantage in obtaining players via being a private school somewhat disgusts me.

This all day. Exactly. I absolutely loathe Vandy baseball because of this situation.

[KB21]

This is interesting. The top three recruiting classes in college baseball according to Perfect game:

1. Vanderbilt
2. Florida
3. Mississippi State

Recruits from Vanderbilt that will sign/have signed pro contracts: Triston McKenzie, Bryce Denton, Nolan Watson, and Chandler Day
Recruits from Florida that will sign/have signed pro contracts: Kyle Tucker, Brady Singer, Thomas Szapucki
Recruits from Mississippi State that will sign/have signed pro contracts: Austin Riley, Greg Pickett, Gray Fenter

The #4 class was UCLA, and they are losing Kolby Allard, Lucas Herbet, Kyle Molnar, and Tyler Nevin

When you recruit at a high level, you are going to lose out to the pros on some.