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Todd4State
05-16-2015, 05:30 PM
1. If we were a movie franchise, we would need to reboot the entire franchise. I'm glad to see this group of seniors gone. They were good followers, but they were not good leaders. Too many goofballs like Ross- and simply put they just weren't tough enough mentally to lead on or off the field. One of my favorite quotes was from Herb Brooks the coach of the 1980 USA hockey team that won gold in the Olympics about finding the "right" players rather than the "best". We had that with Frazier, Graveman, Pirtle, Slauter etc. And now we have to get back to that. Cohen HAS to do a better job of evaluating that in our players. The most successful MSU baseball teams had players that worked hard and did whatever it took to win. I'm pretty shocked that Cohen has allowed this to happen because of his personality as both a coach and a player- and I don't have an explanation for it. Cohen needs to go back to being himself- and recruit players that are OK with a competitive coach yelling at them in the name of trying to get the best out of them.

2. We need to make damn sure that our players are working out. This is to me the most egregious thing that Cohen has done all year. When you don't put the work in, you don't get the results you want. I think this is a BIG reason why we have had so many nagging injuries all year long minus a couple of exceptions like Britton with his knee and Collins with his hand. We had Reid Humphreys missing a game because of a "quad strain". Come on. Put some Vagisil on it and run your ass out to the field. Then we had Trevor Fitts sitting out the Ole Miss series- and possibly cost us the Saturday game, and then all of a sudden he is 100% the next week? Bullshit. Order number one for me would be to fire Brian Neal and hire a strength coach that will not let anyone slide.

3. Even with all the bullshit, our pitching is really the MAIN difference between us being in a regional and us having a losing record. If some of you aren't giving Cohen a pass for his first two years, then you need to look at the stats from his three losing seasons. The common theme is awful pitching. Does anyone here really think that we would have been worse off starting Sexton, Tatum, and Hudson as opposed to Laster, Preston Brown, and Sexton? I don't believe we would be, and then we would have three guys with a lot of SEC starting experience next year. Why are we constantly having to duct tape our pitching staff together? Why are players not consistently having the light come on until their junior year? Why didn't Dakota Hudson pitch more despite not pitching any worse than anyone else that got multiple chances to fail over and over and over again like Ross? The buck stops with Cohen, and he has plenty of faults, but this year is as much or more on Butch. I'm becoming more and more convinced that we would be much better off as a program having a pitching coach with a more biomechanical approach that develops power arms out of the guys that we do get. That way we wouldn't have to worry as much about MLB taking all of our natural power arms. It would also probably help prevent injuries as well. At the end of the day, we need more power arms to compete for championships. Right now Hudson, Sexton, and Houston are the only ones even in that realm on this team. Our goal as a program should be to have four guys that can go 6 IP every game and then turn it over to three guys with lights out stuff. I'm OK with a submarine/sidearm guy for long relief if someone is having a rough day like Caleb Reed or Chad Girodo. And to be honest, I actually like submarine/sidearm guys- but we've got way too many on the team right now and none of them are effective for us at the moment. But only one of them is a junior, so they haven't hit their year three all of a sudden they've figured it out year with Butch. I don't know that I would just fire Butch, but I would strongly encourage him to learn a more biomechanical approach to teaching our pitchers. Especially since I believe that this is going to be the new trend in pitching.

4. The biggest thing with hitting more than anything is we must get more power hitters. That in and of itself will reduce bunting by itself. There was an announcer this year that described our lineup as a bunch of number two hitters- and he's right. When Cohen was at his best, he had power hitters both at Florida and at Kentucky. Our best offense had Renfroe, Rea, and then you had Pirtle and Frazier who both hit a lot of doubles. We NEED at least 4-5 power hitters. And what we need to do in recruiting is find more guys like Rooker that MLB isn't going to draft because otherwise we're going to end up like we did last year losing our top power guys like Vallot and then we aren't going to have anyone to fill the void. I'm totally fine with 3-4 guys like Robson that are good bunters and can use the bunt as a weapon to get on base because of their speed. And as all of you know- I like adding that dimension to our lineup because of the extra possibilities it opens up to us and how it can get the defense out of position because they have to defend it. But we don't need eight bunt/run guys in the lineup. Especially if they can't hit more than ten doubles on the year. Yes, Dudy-Noble is big and it's hard to hit balls out of there, but there's no reason why we shouldn't be hitting a ton of doubles and triples.

5. If we're going to recruit speed, we need to find a coach that is good at teaching base-running. We have been pretty good at bunting- we probably set a school record for bunt singles this year. But we need to have at least a couple of guys swiping a minimum of 20 bags a year. Base-running and speed are not mutually exclusive. You can be fast and not be a good base-runner. But interestingly enough you can be very dangerous if you have above average/decent speed but are a very smart base-runner. See Larry Walker. If you have a guy that has speed and is a good base-runner- you have someone that is elite like a Rickey Henderson, Lou Brock, or Maury Wills. You can change a game with speed in a lot of different ways- stealing a base or maybe even taking an extra base. It makes a lot of sense for us to exploit that skill. I'd get rid of Zach Dillon and hire someone that was really good in this area.

6. I would get rid of Mingione. Not only because of the hitting- but actually mainly because of the recruiting and the fact that he initially misjudged the character of many of the players that we currently have. I don't really care if Cohen totally gives up hitting duties or not- I would prefer that he did. But at any rate, I think he is stretched thin and doesn't have the help he needs. And I think it hurts everyone. I talked about bringing in a guy to coach baserunning to replace Dillon- bring in a hitting coach that has a focus on power hitting to help balance things out a little bit to replace Mingione.

7. And as far as defense- just to touch on it- for the most part, we were OK. I do think that we need to get more athletic and that will help us be even better and that goes back to the point about working out.

And then there are the misc. items- ditch the Adidas bats and stick with traditional MSU baseball uniforms. I prefer the Will Clark era uniforms, the 2013 CWS pinstripe uniforms, and then I'm OK with the early 90's uniforms that we had this year. The rest are kaka.

For those that don't want to read everything- I think the best way to sum it up is, let's build a more conventional baseball team. More power arms, more power hitters, speed guys at the top and bottom. If we were MSU-Rolling Fork I could understand us having a glut of bunters, JUCO's and sidearmers/junkballers. But we're ****ing Mississippi State. Let's bring in some elite talent like the class that is about to come in and let's just go out and kick everyone's ass and not be cute about it.

Bass Chaser
05-16-2015, 09:30 PM
Todd, realistically how long will it take to build a more conventional team? Can it be done in 1 year?

msstate7
05-16-2015, 09:36 PM
Good post

basedog
05-16-2015, 09:51 PM
We can't help but be improved going 8-22, now will it be enough is the question going into 2016. Can or will Cohen change is staff and style of play?

Todd4State
05-16-2015, 09:52 PM
Todd, realistically how long will it take to build a more conventional team? Can it be done in 1 year?

It SHOULD take no more than two years. You have to realistically allow guys a year to adjust their freshmen years.

That said, I think it CAN be done in one year. It depends on your players that you have and where they are. We return Humphreys, Collins, and Rooker- and that's a good start. We'll see what the draft leaves us with the rest of the hitters. I do think that Cole Gordon will be a hitter in the long term and then we have Lowe from JUCO and we'll see what we get out of them- if either one of those two step up it will be HUGE for us. If the three veteran guys I mentioned play everyday, it will help us out a LOT.

You could say the same about the pitching- I think we have a good group to work with in terms of Hudson, Tatum, Sexton, and Houston. As we saw this year, pitching is key to the type of season that you will have. I think the issue for us will be solving the rest of the bullpen and figuring out which one of the ten or so pitchers coming are ready to contribute. And Butch has to be OK with our guys only going one inning at a time sometimes rather than a Girodo that can go six or seven in relief.

Todd4State
05-16-2015, 10:02 PM
We can't help but be improved going 8-22, now will it be enough is the question going into 2016. Can or will Cohen change is staff and style of play?

Going by his comments I think he will. This is a guy that built his team at Kentucky for their ballpark and they had a lot of success. Then he built our team for the dead ball era basically and he took us to the NC series. He was very vocal about wanting to delay the ball change for a season or two to allow us time to adjust.

So, he is at least giving the impression that he knows. He's not pulling a Croom and saying that we're going to be playing Augie Garrido offense no matter what.

I do think that bunting will continue to be part of what we do- but like I said I think we will see less of it. It's simply because you ask your players to do what fits their strengths. If a guy is a power hitter like Renfroe, you're going to ask him to swing away more often than not, and if you have a hitter like Robson, you're going to ask him to bunt some to take advantage of his speed. Like Coach34 said today- coaching baseball isn't quantum physics.

It's just kind of the way baseball is sometimes- we were ahead of the curve of most everybody in 2013 and we won big, but a team like Ole Miss was behind and they didn't have a very good year. Now the shoe is on the other foot- and complicated by a horrible bullpen. And now it's our time to catch up again.

Todd4State
05-16-2015, 10:05 PM
And one thing I would like to see us do midweek if we can't find a true midweek guy is do what Tony LaRussa used to do sometimes- have a bullpen game. Start a guy and let him go 2-3 innings and then go through your guys in the bullpen one at a time until you get to the closer in the ninth. And pray that the game doesn't go into extra innings.

Tbonewannabe
05-16-2015, 10:38 PM
Going by his comments I think he will. This is a guy that built his team at Kentucky for their ballpark and they had a lot of success. Then he built our team for the dead ball era basically and he took us to the NC series. He was very vocal about wanting to delay the ball change for a season or two to allow us time to adjust.

So, he is at least giving the impression that he knows. He's not pulling a Croom and saying that we're going to be playing Augie Garrido offense no matter what.

I do think that bunting will continue to be part of what we do- but like I said I think we will see less of it. It's simply because you ask your players to do what fits their strengths. If a guy is a power hitter like Renfroe, you're going to ask him to swing away more often than not, and if you have a hitter like Robson, you're going to ask him to bunt some to take advantage of his speed. Like Coach34 said today- coaching baseball isn't quantum physics.

It's just kind of the way baseball is sometimes- we were ahead of the curve of most everybody in 2013 and we won big, but a team like Ole Miss was behind and they didn't have a very good year. Now the shoe is on the other foot- and complicated by a horrible bullpen. And now it's our time to catch up again.

I think more than most teams Cohen tried to use the dead ball to the maximum advantage. Now that isn't the case, we were actually at a disadvantage. Combine that with letting the team leadership take the team down the shitter and we have a perfect storm. Next year we probably have to make a regional. Even with a lot of freshmen and sophomores we should be a 3 seed somewhere.

Dawgface
05-16-2015, 10:48 PM
My thoughts on baseball..........we suck and I have absolutely no interest in it. Cohen will have to work a miracle next year to get me and many others on board.

Todd4State
05-16-2015, 11:44 PM
I think more than most teams Cohen tried to use the dead ball to the maximum advantage. Now that isn't the case, we were actually at a disadvantage. Combine that with letting the team leadership take the team down the shitter and we have a perfect storm. Next year we probably have to make a regional. Even with a lot of freshmen and sophomores we should be a 3 seed somewhere.

I think that is very realistic and very doable. Heck, if Ross was decent we're in a regional.

Todd4State
05-16-2015, 11:44 PM
My thoughts on baseball..........we suck and I have absolutely no interest in it. Cohen will have to work a miracle next year to get me and many others on board.

Well you have enough interest to respond to this thread.

dawgs
05-17-2015, 01:46 AM
I think that is very realistic and very doable. Heck, if Ross was decent we're in a regional.

Ross is the same pitcher he's always been. A little bit bad luck and a little bit new ball affecting the movement on his pitches and the force of the ball off the bat, and it shouldn't be a surprise at all that he would regress.

Tbonewannabe
05-17-2015, 08:11 AM
Ross is the same pitcher he's always been. A little bit bad luck and a little bit new ball affecting the movement on his pitches and the force of the ball off the bat, and it shouldn't be a surprise at all that he would regress.

Ross lived off his movement so no one got solid contact. Very much like a knuckle baller when the ball isn't moving, the pitcher is just throwing BP. I think the new ball just got in his head and everything bad snowballed. He could still be good but I think it was half mental and the other half losing movement.

Bully13
05-17-2015, 09:11 AM
I'm not convinced we sucked as bad early in the year. something seemed to happen to make the wheels come off. that falls on coaching. leadership starts at the top and that is where it seemed to go south for whatever reason.

Dawgface
05-17-2015, 09:32 AM
Well you have enough interest to respond to this thread.

Doesn't mean I'm on board with Cohen ball. I can count on one hand the number of games I watched during the last month. Same with basketball last year. But I do plan to watch a lot of those games next year with our new leadership.

CadaverDawg
05-17-2015, 11:08 AM
Good post Todd. #5 pisses me off. Why? Because Cohen admittedly went away from power hitters due to the baseballs and for several years, built us for small ball and speed..yet we have never been worth two shits at base running under him.

Base running has nothing to do with speed, as Todd said. I was never fast, but I could steal bases and get extra bases on singles and doubles because I knew how to run the bases and get jumps. There is no excuse for guys like Robson, Vickerson, etc, to ever be thrown out at home from second base on a single. That is poor coaching. We are always freezing on line drives that are clearly 10 feet over infielders heads and heading for gaps, thus negating an extra base or 2. Unacceptable.

That's been one of my big issues. If you're going to throw all your eggs into the "small ball, speed, base running" game, you damn well better be great at those things. But we aren't and haven't been. Can't get bunts down consistently, bunt in poor situations, can't effectively move runners over by hitting situationally, can't steal bases effectively, can't run bases worth a shit, don't even have a first base coach despite that being an important position. And have a clown for a 3rd base coach.

Just all around poor, and #5 was a big problem that featured many of our core problems IMO.

HereComesTheSpiral
05-17-2015, 12:13 PM
2. We need to make damn sure that our players are working out. This is to me the most egregious thing that Cohen has done all year. When you don't put the work in, you don't get the results you want. I think this is a BIG reason why we have had so many nagging injuries all year long minus a couple of exceptions like Britton with his knee and Collins with his hand. We had Reid Humphreys missing a game because of a "quad strain". Come on. Put some Vagisil on it and run your ass out to the field. Then we had Trevor Fitts sitting out the Ole Miss series- and possibly cost us the Saturday game, and then all of a sudden he is 100% the next week? Bullshit. Order number one for me would be to fire Brian Neal and hire a strength coach that will not let anyone slide.



I have to disagree with those two sentences. That is completely on the players that are supposed to be your leaders, which we had none. Now if Cohen is playing the players that say F it, that is on him and he has lost the team for not only this year but next. Unless the younger players, sophomores and freshmen, say screw having another year like this one or this shit is not happening again, next year will just be repeat of this shit. If this year's attitude is what we are to expect moving forward, then you might as well kick every player out of the program and only have freshmen playing next year. Maybe this was the season we needed so something that resembles leaders will be here next year.

bulldogcountry1
05-17-2015, 06:48 PM
I don't really buy the whole ball change excuse. Yeah, it contributed, but well coached teams make adjustments and grind it out. We started the seasons looking really confident. Yeah, it was against poor competition, but we have managed too look bad against a similar level of competition since. This season had to be a combination of several things, and internal issues HAVE to be the biggest thing.

I just want the Cohen we all thought we were getting to start with. Part of me thinks he will make all the right moves and get us back on track, but another part fears he might go off the control freak deep end and refuse to stop the excessive in-game meddling.

Todd4State
05-17-2015, 10:44 PM
Ross is the same pitcher he's always been. A little bit bad luck and a little bit new ball affecting the movement on his pitches and the force of the ball off the bat, and it shouldn't be a surprise at all that he would regress.

From watching us play, I think our infield defense really hurt Ross a lot as well. Holland was a huge downgrade from Pirtle who was an outstanding defensive player. And there was no answer at third base.

maroonmania
05-17-2015, 11:41 PM
From watching us play, I think our infield defense really hurt Ross a lot as well. Holland was a huge downgrade from Pirtle who was an outstanding defensive player. And there was no answer at third base.

I actually thought the biggest issue with Ross this year was inability to locate even moreso than lack of late ball movement. Now I don't know if that was due to the ball change or what but its like he had a lot of trouble getting behind hitters or walking hitters if he didn't lay one right over the heart of the plate. Seems like he wasn't getting some of the corner calls he'd gotten in the past along with the fact that he just got wilder. Heck, Saturday he's brought in during a key late situation and the first pitch is BEHIND the batter (called an hbp). That is just not the old Ross.

Todd4State
05-17-2015, 11:48 PM
I actually thought the biggest issue with Ross this year was inability to locate even moreso than lack of late ball movement. Now I don't know if that was due to the ball change or what but its like he had a lot of trouble getting behind hitters or walking hitters if he didn't lay one right over the heart of the plate. Seems like he wasn't getting some of the corner calls he'd gotten in the past along with the fact that he just got wilder. Heck, Saturday he's brought in during a key late situation and the first pitch is BEHIND the batter (called an hbp). That is just not the old Ross.

The reality is it was probably a combination of factors coming together. Less movement + a worse infield defense is not a good recipe for a groundball pitcher. Plus, Fitts blew a lot of leads and allowed a lot of inherited runners to score this year- absolutely it's Ross's fault for allowing the runners in the first place, but at times a pitcher needs his teammates to bail him out. If it doesn't happen and things like runners score it can hurt a pitchers confidence sometimes. Especially when it happens over and over and over again. It's a psychological thing, and it can snowball quickly.

Todd4State
05-17-2015, 11:54 PM
Good post Todd. #5 pisses me off. Why? Because Cohen admittedly went away from power hitters due to the baseballs and for several years, built us for small ball and speed..yet we have never been worth two shits at base running under him.

Base running has nothing to do with speed, as Todd said. I was never fast, but I could steal bases and get extra bases on singles and doubles because I knew how to run the bases and get jumps. There is no excuse for guys like Robson, Vickerson, etc, to ever be thrown out at home from second base on a single. That is poor coaching. We are always freezing on line drives that are clearly 10 feet over infielders heads and heading for gaps, thus negating an extra base or 2. Unacceptable.

That's been one of my big issues. If you're going to throw all your eggs into the "small ball, speed, base running" game, you damn well better be great at those things. But we aren't and haven't been. Can't get bunts down consistently, bunt in poor situations, can't effectively move runners over by hitting situationally, can't steal bases effectively, can't run bases worth a shit, don't even have a first base coach despite that being an important position. And have a clown for a 3rd base coach.

Just all around poor, and #5 was a big problem that featured many of our core problems IMO.

Having the base running coach at first base would be a lot more beneficial than having someone that is bored and needs something to do during the game coaching first base. Like I've said before if you are going to do something, be excellent at it.

Todd4State
05-18-2015, 12:01 AM
I have to disagree with those two sentences. That is completely on the players that are supposed to be your leaders, which we had none. Now if Cohen is playing the players that say F it, that is on him and he has lost the team for not only this year but next. Unless the younger players, sophomores and freshmen, say screw having another year like this one or this shit is not happening again, next year will just be repeat of this shit. If this year's attitude is what we are to expect moving forward, then you might as well kick every player out of the program and only have freshmen playing next year. Maybe this was the season we needed so something that resembles leaders will be here next year.

They are responsible too. It goes both ways- the buck stops with Cohen, but the players also have to step up on their end. It's extremely confusing to me that we would bring in players that don't want to work hard.

When we were recruiting the guys that were supposed to be "leaders" on this team- I don't remember hearing anything about Ross, Heck, or Rea being leaders. I remember Fitts being considered a good prospect- but when it was his senior year in high school instead of shining and taking his game to the next level, he actually regressed some.

The good news is I think guys like Luke Alexander, Jake Mangum, and Hunter Stovall are going to be good leaders. I think Ryan Gridley will be a good team leader as well. The thing is we're talking about freshmen that haven't played an inning yet- and it's hard to earn and get respect from newcomers like that coming in.

I seen it dawg
05-18-2015, 05:50 AM
Ross = dead arm. I explained this a couple of months ago.

Smitty
05-18-2015, 06:29 AM
Ross = dead arm. I explained this a couple of months ago.

Velocity was the same.
K rates were the same.
Ground ball rates were the same.
Walk rates were the same.

As the poster "dawgs" pointed out (and myself in previous years discussions) he was due for regression. This, combined with the new ball is the reason. Not "dead arm" as the rates and velo show.

dawgs
05-18-2015, 10:10 AM
I'm not convinced we sucked as bad early in the year. something seemed to happen to make the wheels come off. that falls on coaching. leadership starts at the top and that is where it seemed to go south for whatever reason.

That something being the competition got a lot tougher.

RAYn_Man
05-18-2015, 11:13 AM
I want to know how y'all know who is a good leader or not

maroonmania
05-18-2015, 11:25 AM
Velocity was the same.
K rates were the same.
Ground ball rates were the same.
Walk rates were the same.

As the poster "dawgs" pointed out (and myself in previous years discussions) he was due for regression. This, combined with the new ball is the reason. Not "dead arm" as the rates and velo show.

For a guy like Ross its all about location. If he can't hit the corners regularly for strikes and get those calls he is dead meat. A pitcher that throws the velocity that Ross does that has to throw the ball into the hitting zone to avoid walks is due for a lot more "regression" than would naturally come from just a law of averages viewpoint. And that is what we got this year, a lot more solid contact on his pitches because of where they were in the zone.

I seen it dawg
05-18-2015, 11:25 AM
Velocity was the same.
K rates were the same.
Ground ball rates were the same.
Walk rates were the same.

As the poster "dawgs" pointed out (and myself in previous years discussions) he was due for regression. This, combined with the new ball is the reason. Not "dead arm" as the rates and velo show.

There is a lot more to dead arm than velocity you putz. I'm not explaining it to you again bc you won't understand.

maroonmania
05-18-2015, 11:27 AM
There is a lot more to dead arm than velocity you putz. I'm not explaining it to you again bc you won't understand.

Yes, and I agree that "dead arm" would, or could, contribute to lack of pinpoint location on pitches.

I seen it dawg
05-18-2015, 11:30 AM
Yes, and I agree that "dead arm" would, or could, contribute to lack of pinpoint location on pitches.

Hence getting hit harder. And then compounding issues set in. More to it than some numerical rate as usual.

dawgs
05-18-2015, 12:40 PM
There is a lot more to dead arm than velocity you putz. I'm not explaining it to you again bc you won't understand.

But there's plenty of other explanations too...new ball and natural regression being 2 of them. And once things went downhill, he broke mentally and it compounded itself.

dawgs
05-18-2015, 12:43 PM
I want to know how y'all know who is a good leader or not

They don't. At least not with regards to guys that haven't even set foot on campus or haven't played yet or are freshmen. Sure we can look at some of the upperclassmen and see that things have fallen apart and hear the stories of friction in the clubhouse and deduce that there's some leadership issues, but no one knows shit about the young guys and their leadership yet.