Shotguns's thoughts on where it went wrong

[ShotgunDawg]

I very rarely speak out against this coaching staff because I genuinely like them, believe they are excellent coaches, and believe they have a passion and drive to succeed at MSU that is unmatched. However, with that being said, I think that at times, the best deserve criticism, particularly when they lose their way & sight of what made them successful in the first place.

So where did it all go wrong & how did we end up in this position?

I've heard many over the past few months criticize our approach at the plate, pitch calling, base running, & virtually every other facet of the game that we have managed to screw up over the season, but, from a big picture perspective, I believe that is a lot like criticizing "play calling", in football, & is very rarely the real problem with a team or program.

This is just one man's opinion, but, from my point of view, the problems with our baseball program began when it became more about the coaches & less about the players. When Cohen came aboard & following the College World Series run, MSU was all about bunting, quirky pitching staff management, quirky lineups, having camps for "drop down" pitchers, and, with this, an attitude of out smarting the game & getting away from the basics of what successful teams do began to creep into the program.

Don't me wrong, it is great if a team is good at bunting, has unique relievers, and can exploit the competition in numerous way, however, those are auxiliary ingredients to winning and are not and have never been the main ingredients. At some point, those ingredients started to become what the program was built on instead of the basics of power arms that can pitch off a fastball & hitters that can impact the ball to the gaps. At some point, this program became more about tricking the competition than straight up beating them. At some point, this program became about betting on the awkward exceptions and less about the proven formula of players with legitimate tools that are more talented than the other team. Again, at some point, it became more about the coaches trying to show others how smart they are, and less about allowing the players to show the other team how good they are. I realize that MSU has scholarship limitations compared to most of our rivals, but that is a crutch, and not a valid reason for losing at MSU. That is an excuse given by people that have given up. This situation is the reality of MSU and we need coaches that are hell bent on overcoming it.

It has been said that one of the strengths of the Pittsburgh Steelers' organization throughout their history is that whenever they have a few losing seasons in a row, they always use the draft to go back to the basics. They stop getting cute and refocus their energy on the positions that matter. With that in mind, I think that is the solution this program's problems. The biggest and toughest coaching job that John Cohen will ever have will be between June and February following this season. He has to go back to the basics of throwing hard, throwing strikes, and impacting the ball. He has win back the trust of his players and make the game fun again. Simply, this program needs to read, "Building a Baseball Team for Dummies" and go back to the basics.

[War Machine Dawg]

http://i.imgur.com/ywCs67G.gif

[BulldogBear]

Strong Post Shotgun

[engie]

I have alot of thoughts on the matter and generally agree with you. I'll fully collect my thoughts once this season is finally mercifully over and make my baseball exit post on here.

We had guys that were overmatched athletically before -- but were f'n gamers. Our style worked great with that type of player and overcoaching compensated for their shortcomings well.

Now we have guys that are far more gifted athletically -- were obviously pampered coming up -- and are mental midgets instead of the "hit you in the mouth" guys we have had. And overcoaching has totally destroyed them. It's all ultimately on Cohen obviously, and he still gets his chance to fix it, but he's going to loathe the day he promoted Mingione(like I have since that day). He has to be the fall guy regardless of whether he's the real problem or not at this point IMO...

The 2-0 intentional walk, no now we're going to throw to this guy, stunk to high heaven of a head coach over rule. If that was what happened, and it's total speculation on my part from a lot of time behind the dish in similar situations, we can prettymuch kiss Butch Thompson goodbye. He has enough cache to go get a decent head job somewhere. Hopefully if it's going that route, Butch will love MSU enough to just leave on his own terms and lend us the ability to go grab a great pitching coach. If Cohen did something crazy like actually firing him, no chance that happens. To me, Butch has more cache here than Cohen does. It's been his elite, unconventional pitching staffs that have carried us. This year has certainly sucked. But I want to see the next class and another year of development with Butch at the helm before I'm even considering wanting to go another direction at pitching coach. He's done alot better job getting highly-rated pitchers into school than we have done with the hitters, that's for sure...

[Bully13]

it's called coaches with a desire that don't let their players play like PU$$ies

[Todd4State]

Great post Shotgun. This staff has definitely lost it's way right now. Hopefully they can get it back together- and I think it starts with focusing more on conventional baseball rather than the auxillary parts. As you said before, power arms and power hitting play in any ballpark. I think it's OK to have some sidewinders and some guys that can bunt really well- but we don't need a lineup of eight guys that are bunt/run guys and four guys on the staff that are sidearmers. Have a couple of guys like Robson and use them at the top or bottom of the order and then use one-two sidearmers max out of the bullpen.

The thing that stands out to me the most about the players is their overall lack of mental toughness. I think that is something that coaches have to evaluate better in the recruiting process. Traditionally, gamers have done really well at MSU and a lot of our better players have been in that category.

[Todd4State]

I have alot of thoughts on the matter and generally agree with you. I'll fully collect my thoughts once this season is finally mercifully over and make my baseball exit post on here.

We had guys that were overmatched athletically before -- but were f'n gamers. Our style worked great with that type of player and overcoaching compensated for their shortcomings well.

Now we have guys that are far more gifted athletically -- were obviously pampered coming up -- and are mental midgets instead of the "hit you in the mouth" guys we have had. And overcoaching has totally destroyed them. It's all ultimately on Cohen obviously, and he still gets his chance to fix it, but he's going to loathe the day he promoted Mingione(like I have since that day). He has to be the fall guy regardless of whether he's the real problem or not at this point IMO...

The 2-0 intentional walk, no now we're going to throw to this guy, stunk to high heaven of a head coach over rule. If that was what happened, and it's total speculation on my part from a lot of time behind the dish in similar situations, we can prettymuch kiss Butch Thompson goodbye. He has enough cache to go get a decent head job somewhere. Hopefully if it's going that route, Butch will love MSU enough to just leave on his own terms and lend us the ability to go grab a great pitching coach. If Cohen did something crazy like actually firing him, no chance that happens. To me, Butch has more cache here than Cohen does. It's been his elite, unconventional pitching staffs that have carried us. This year has certainly sucked. But I want to see the next class and another year of development with Butch at the helm before I'm even considering wanting to go another direction at pitching coach. He's done alot better job getting highly-rated pitchers into school than we have done with the hitters, that's for sure...

I obviously agree about the part about gamers.

I agree about Mingione. I mean, if the guy was promoted to hitting coach and now Dillion is coaching the hitters as much or more, then he's probably not a real good hitting coach. A lot of the reason I want Mingione gone is because he has recruited a lot of these players who are not tough enough for SEC ball right now. And that's egregious.

Now on Butch- I don't know that I totally agree. Yes, he has done a good job overall- no doubt about that. BUT-how come we never have any pitcher develop to their full ability until they are juniors? If it's one or two guys- I can understand, it happens, etc. But it's every single pitcher. And the thing about the pitching is as much as people bitch about the hitting and the offense- the pitching has been worse. Those guys are every bit as mentally weak as the position players- if not moreso. And Butch recruited the pitchers- so to be fair to Mingione, if I'm going to call him out about our lack of toughness on the field in terms of recruiting the position players, I've got to call Butch out for basically the same thing since he recruited these soft pitchers. And to be honest there have been some questionable things done by Butch this year- like blindly trusting Ross and at the same time not trusting Dakota Hudson for "not looking good in practice".

I do think that Butch gets a lot of respect because in the end when it's all said and done- yeah, he will develop you and give you a chance to make it in pro ball. But I want to see results a lot sooner than year three.

[engie]

The thing that stands out to me the most about the players is their overall lack of mental toughness. I think that is something that coaches have to evaluate better in the recruiting process. Traditionally, gamers have done really well at MSU and a lot of our better players have been in that category.

And develop it better in the strength and conditioning program. That attitude can be built and fostered to some extent. We saw it with Stratton and others. That's how it was here for the first 5 years. While we didn't drastically underachieve last year, I thought we lost quite a bit of our edge in that regard. I saw that then. But elite enough players don't have to play with that edge since it all comes so easily. Now the bench mobb mentality has taken us like a virus -- and obviously there were no checks and balances there in the offseason to be sure shit was getting done. That's where, when, and how this has got to be fixed. We better look like a f'n football team come fall. I'm sick of the midgets and the lack of body transformation over 4 years. The first year in college is when we should be seeing huge body changes in these guys if they are taking care of their business in the weight room and on the track. Make preseason training so damn difficult that it is what actually culls most of the herd for us. The guys that survive it will, in theory, be machines.

I'd be taking tee practice right this minute if it were me. Turn the f'n lights on and get to work. This team has GOT to give us something to work with. They haven't so far.

[ShotgunDawg]

And develop it better in the strength and conditioning program. That attitude can be built and fostered to some extent. We saw it with Stratton and others. That's how it was here for the first 5 years. While we didn't drastically underachieve last year, I thought we lost quite a bit of our edge in that regard. I saw that then. But elite enough players don't have to play with that edge since it all comes so easily. Now the bench mobb mentality has taken us like a virus -- and obviously there were no checks and balances there in the offseason to be sure shit was getting done. That's where, when, and how this has got to be fixed. We better look like a f'n football team come fall. I'm sick of the midgets and the lack of body transformation over 4 years. The first year in college is when we should be seeing huge body changes in these guys if they are taking care of their business in the weight room and on the track. Make preseason training so damn difficult that it is what actually culls most of the herd for us. The guys that survive it will, in theory, be machines.

I'd be taking tee practice right this minute if it were me. Turn the f'n lights on and get to work. This team has GOT to give us something to work with. They haven't so far.

Absolutely, again, back to the basics.

[engie]

I obviously agree about the part about gamers.

I agree about Mingione. I mean, if the guy was promoted to hitting coach and now Dillion is coaching the hitters as much or more, then he's probably not a real good hitting coach. A lot of the reason I want Mingione gone is because he has recruited a lot of these players who are not tough enough for SEC ball right now. And that's egregious.

Now on Butch- I don't know that I totally agree. Yes, he has done a good job overall- no doubt about that. BUT-how come we never have any pitcher develop to their full ability until they are juniors? If it's one or two guys- I can understand, it happens, etc. But it's every single pitcher. And the thing about the pitching is as much as people bitch about the hitting and the offense- the pitching has been worse. Those guys are every bit as mentally weak as the position players- if not moreso. And Butch recruited the pitchers- so to be fair to Mingione, if I'm going to call him out about our lack of toughness on the field in terms of recruiting the position players, I've got to call Butch out for basically the same thing since he recruited these soft pitchers. And to be honest there have been some questionable things done by Butch this year- like blindly trusting Ross and at the same time not trusting Dakota Hudson for "not looking good in practice".

I do think that Butch gets a lot of respect because in the end when it's all said and done- yeah, he will develop you and give you a chance to make it in pro ball. But I want to see results a lot sooner than year three.

Butch gets a free pass for this year IMO. Yes, you obviously want to get more time at an elite level out of our pitchers. But at the end of the day, the staff has been elite 3 out of the last 4 years now. You can fairly want to be more elite -- and you can fairly criticize this year -- but I don't know how practical it is for us to complain about 3 top 25 pitching staffs in 4 years while the hitting only cracks the top 100 once in 5 years...

[Todd4State]

And develop it better in the strength and conditioning program. That attitude can be built and fostered to some extent. We saw it with Stratton and others. That's how it was here for the first 5 years. While we didn't drastically underachieve last year, I thought we lost quite a bit of our edge in that regard. I saw that then. But elite enough players don't have to play with that edge since it all comes so easily. Now the bench mobb mentality has taken us like a virus -- and obviously there were no checks and balances there in the offseason to be sure shit was getting done. That's where, when, and how this has got to be fixed. We better look like a f'n football team come fall. I'm sick of the midgets and the lack of body transformation over 4 years. The first year in college is when we should be seeing huge body changes in these guys if they are taking care of their business in the weight room and on the track. Make preseason training so damn difficult that it is what actually culls most of the herd for us. The guys that survive it will, in theory, be machines.

I'd be taking tee practice right this minute if it were me. Turn the f'n lights on and get to work. This team has GOT to give us something to work with. They haven't so far.

I think the Bench Mobb was the best thing and at the same time the worst thing to ever happen to MSU baseball. In the short run it was good because it caused Cohen to relax and it allowed those players to perform- but those were players that could still execute. In the long run, I think it has caused Cohen to relax too much. He needs to find a happy medium between being too much of a hardass and just letting the inmates run the asylum.

How hard is it to allow beards and guys to wear their socks how they want to and at the same time demand that they work their ass off?

[engie]

DP

[engie]

I think the Bench Mobb was the best thing and at the same time the worst thing to ever happen to MSU baseball. In the short run it was good because it caused Cohen to relax and it allowed those players to perform- but those were players that could still execute. In the long run, I think it has caused Cohen to relax too much. He needs to find a happy medium between being too much of a hardass and just letting the inmates run the asylum.

How hard is it to allow beards and guys to wear their socks how they want to and at the same time demand that they work their ass off?

Agreed.

Cohen's problem IMO is that he can't be multiple. He coaches one way and that's it and they have been polar 180s. He's got to find a happy medium. Or better yet -- elite coaches identify what causes each individual player to perform and they exploit that. Often that's not "patting them on the back" -- or sometimes it is. It depends on the guy. If he's going to do this "his way" though, he damn sure needs to do a MUCH better job of recruiting "his guys".

I wish I had a couple more inside perspectives on what is actually going on. There's a disconnect between everyone. And it's failed leadership on the staff. And on the team. You don't have the amount of shit go wrong we have had without there being alot more boiling below the surface. I hope it boils dry and starts fresh next year. Cut out the cancers -- I don't care if they are our "best" players. We literally have no one on this team that has been irreplaceable on any level whatsoever. None of these guys are untouchable.

[Todd4State]

Agreed.

Cohen's problem IMO is that he can't be multiple. He coaches one way and that's it and they have been polar 180s. He's got to find a happy medium. Or better yet -- elite coaches identify what causes each individual player to perform and they exploit that. Often that's not "patting them on the back" -- or sometimes it is. It depends on the guy. If he's going to do this "his way" though, he damn sure needs to do a MUCH better job of recruiting "his guys".

I wish I had a couple more inside perspectives on what is actually going on. There's a disconnect between everyone. And it's failed leadership on the staff. And on the team. You don't have the amount of shit go wrong we have had without there being alot more boiling below the surface. I hope it boils dry and starts fresh next year. Cut out the cancers -- I don't care if they are our "best" players. We literally have no one on this team that has been irreplaceable on any level whatsoever. None of these guys are untouchable.

I don't think Cohen is capable of doing it any other way than his way because of his personality. That's why he needs Lane Burroughs who can play the good cop, but at the same time push the players. Right now he has Barney Fife as his good cop all the while he is trying to be Andy Griffith and not be too hard on the players.

As far as leaders, we miss Pollorena and Slauter bad in that department. Pollorena would push people and he usually performed well enough to back it up. Slauter was the guy on the team that would get in your face and tell you to get your head out of your ass- and sometimes that means more coming from a teammate than a coach.

And I agree with no one being untouchable.

[bulldogcountry1]

One thing that I haven't really seen mentioned in a while is the fact that we backed out of the Houston tournament. I can't say when that actually happened, but I believe at least the word got out in the fall. At the time, that gave me a ban feeling because I could think of no other reason to do it other than the staff felt like we weren't going to be as good and needed to make our schedule easier. With all the problems we have now, I wonder if this was the trigger that sent a message to the team that giving up is okay. Maybe I am off base, but it looked like Cohen gave up to an extent when he backed out on that tournament. Maybe that played a part in setting the tone for the season.

To me, most problems that develop after you start losing can be chalked up to bad character. Lord knows Cohen's frustrating coaching style will reveal any character weaknesses. There's no need to over analyze it, though. You have to go back to where it first went wrong and start there. If people started skipping workouts in March or April, it's because of something that happened or didn't happen long before that. Those are the things that need to be fixed, whether it be the type of players we recruit, leadership, team rules, etc.

I just hope that we are blowing the perceived internal problems out of proportion because coaches are rarely able to recover from those types of issues.

[HailState39110]

Getting back to the basics is absolutely necessary . Quick the weird lineups, bringing pitchers in in the middle of at bats , new uniforms every game, etc. I am soon tired of trying to be different

Let's get a traditional lineup out there. A lead off guy who has speed and had a great OBP.
. A Guy who bats second who is a great hitter yet lacks power. 3, 4, and 5 hole power guys . Baseball is not that difficult yet we seem to try and be the weird quirky team out there and when you suck it just makes you look stupid .

[maroonmania]

I obviously agree about the part about gamers.

I agree about Mingione. I mean, if the guy was promoted to hitting coach and now Dillion is coaching the hitters as much or more, then he's probably not a real good hitting coach. A lot of the reason I want Mingione gone is because he has recruited a lot of these players who are not tough enough for SEC ball right now. And that's egregious.

Now on Butch- I don't know that I totally agree. Yes, he has done a good job overall- no doubt about that. BUT-how come we never have any pitcher develop to their full ability until they are juniors? If it's one or two guys- I can understand, it happens, etc. But it's every single pitcher. And the thing about the pitching is as much as people bitch about the hitting and the offense- the pitching has been worse. Those guys are every bit as mentally weak as the position players- if not moreso. And Butch recruited the pitchers- so to be fair to Mingione, if I'm going to call him out about our lack of toughness on the field in terms of recruiting the position players, I've got to call Butch out for basically the same thing since he recruited these soft pitchers. And to be honest there have been some questionable things done by Butch this year- like blindly trusting Ross and at the same time not trusting Dakota Hudson for "not looking good in practice".

I do think that Butch gets a lot of respect because in the end when it's all said and done- yeah, he will develop you and give you a chance to make it in pro ball. But I want to see results a lot sooner than year three.

The mental weakness of our pitchers was on display big time in the 9th yesterday. I could have lived with that meltdown yesterday if OM had just been getting hit after hit but why in the he!! do you not throw strikes when you have a 5 run lead and you aren't even at least facing the tying run at the plate. Heck, just grooving strikes is much better than hitting people and giving up free passes in that situation. You almost have to help the opponent to be able to give up 5 runs after there are already 2 outs.

[Todd4State]

One thing that I haven't really seen mentioned in a while is the fact that we backed out of the Houston tournament. I can't say when that actually happened, but I believe at least the word got out in the fall. At the time, that gave me a ban feeling because I could think of no other reason to do it other than the staff felt like we weren't going to be as good and needed to make our schedule easier. With all the problems we have now, I wonder if this was the trigger that sent a message to the team that giving up is okay. Maybe I am off base, but it looked like Cohen gave up to an extent when he backed out on that tournament. Maybe that played a part in setting the tone for the season.

To me, most problems that develop after you start losing can be chalked up to bad character. Lord knows Cohen's frustrating coaching style will reveal any character weaknesses. There's no need to over analyze it, though. You have to go back to where it first went wrong and start there. If people started skipping workouts in March or April, it's because of something that happened or didn't happen long before that. Those are the things that need to be fixed, whether it be the type of players we recruit, leadership, team rules, etc.

I just hope that we are blowing the perceived internal problems out of proportion because coaches are rarely able to recover from those types of issues.

I'm pretty sure the players were pussies before we pulled out of the Houston tournament. I don't think that has anything to do with anything to be honest with you. The coaches may have thought that we weren't going to be all that good before the season starts, but I highly doubt that they felt like we wouldn't be able to get two outs in the ninth before giving up six runs bad. If it were me and I thought a team was going to be really bad I would try to lower expectations as much as possible on the front end.

We saw some of these same issues last year- the difference was we had a good bullpen. The problem is we went from a good bullpen to a horriawful bullpen- if we were even average in the bullpen we would be in a regional.

I think we have to evaluate the players that we recruit better in terms of their personality traits and toughness. And again, a lot of times when you have JUCO guys that's part of the reason that they have to go that route to start with. The thing about JUCO's is you bring them in and then they are your upper classmen, but they have zero experience and it takes them usually at least half a year or more to adjust if they ever do.

[Todd4State]

The mental weakness of our pitchers was on display big time in the 9th yesterday. I could have lived with that meltdown yesterday if OM had just been getting hit after hit but why in the he!! do you not throw strikes when you have a 5 run lead and you aren't even at least facing the tying run at the plate. Heck, just grooving strikes is much better than hitting people and giving up free passes in that situation. You almost have to help the opponent to be able to give up 5 runs after there are already 2 outs.

Absolutely. Even throwing batting practice we would have been off. And at the same time, if you are Butch how do you even let a pitcher get into that situation without taking him out? OK- if Fitts was hurt, bring in Hudson. That's another complaint I have about Butch- is he lets guys get too deep into trouble before he even goes out to talk to them. Last year at the Governor's Cup, Laster hit like 3-4 guys in a row and lost the lead and Butch didn't even go out ONCE to talk to him. I was literally screaming at Butch in the dugout to go out and talk to him.

[Political Hack]

I agree with you Engie, but Butch is in Starkville for personal reasons... not the job. Until that changes (and I'm unsure if it has, hasn't, or when it will) Butch is going to be at State.

[Statefan]

Does any of the fault lie on the Seniors (so called leaders) that are on this team? I feel like they have been patting themselves on the back since Omaha and we need a change of leadership

[Todd4State]

Does any of the fault lie on the Seniors (so called leaders) that are on this team? I feel like they have been patting themselves on the back since Omaha and we need a change of leadership

Some, but like other have said, it's the WHOLE system. It's not just one thing. And they're part of that.